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Thread: Rules for DMs -- again
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2020-05-25, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Rules for DMs -- again
Last summer, I posted my Rules for DMs. People seemed to like them and I updated them based on other people's comments. So here's the current version. Feel free to offer critiques or suggestions. Feel free to quote them anywhere, any time.
These rules were written for myself, for the way I run games. Not everybody agrees on how to run a game, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Some of them are serious, some are deliberately exaggerated for comic effect, but all of them are actual considerations when designing or running a world.
Feel free to offer critiques or suggestions. If you think a rule is wrong, feel free to say so. You may talk me out of it. Or you may show people your good way to play that's different from my good way to play. Either way, the discussion has value.
1. Don’t make it flammable if you don’t want it burnt.
2. The DM cannot make the PCs more complex than the players do. No matter what the character sheet says, there are usually only three PC alignments – Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.
3. What the players want today is a quick, easy victory. But what they will want tomorrow is to have brilliantly and bravely turned the tables to barely survive a deadly encounter where it looked like they were all about to die.
4. It's your job to build the problem. It's their job to find a solution. If you create a death trap with only one solution, then then they cannot get out unless they figure out what your solution is. But if you build death trap with no solutions, then any clever plan they come up with might work.
a. The purpose of a death trap is not death; it is to make the players feel clever. Don't build one to cause death, and more importantly, don't build one to make them feel stupid.
b. An escape proof trap, is, by definition, escape proof. What you want is a fool proof trap, and allow your players to amaze you with the quality of fools being made today.
c. Do not confuse a death trap with no solutions with a death trap that cannot be solved. No resemblance.
5. Never let a player roll a die unless it is reasonable to roll a 20, and reasonable to roll a 1.
a. If there's no way to fail, don't roll. If there's no way to succeed, don't roll.
b. PCs should not roll for common or obvious knowledge. If the world has three moons, then they don't have to roll to remember it. They've lived under that sky all their life; they don't even have the idea of a world with only one moon.
c. If it doesn’t matter, then don’t roll dice; summarize. Rolling dice for mop-up combat is as pointless as rolling dice for tying your shoes.
6. At the start of the game, you should have in mind several ways for the PCs to fail. By contrast, it is not your job to find a way for them to succeed.
7. Reward good tactics, consistent characterization, and brilliant ideas more than lucky die rolls.
8. A role-playing game is run by rules. But it isn't made out of rules; it's made out of ideas, characters, and imagination.
9. The more completely you know the rules, the better you can be at ignoring them when necessary.
a. "When necessary" means it should be rare, forced by an unusual situation, and non-intrusive. [And some people believe it should not happen even then.]
b. Applying the rules is like eating food. That should always happen. Ignoring the rules is like taking medicine; it's only a good idea if something is wrong.
c. Never change a rule unless you know why it was written.
10. Never base a campaign on something you are more excited about than your players are. You may have a great idea for a story based around Andalusian left-handed barbed-wire weaving, but by definition, your players are less interested in it, and less knowledgeable about it, and won't get your clues or references. And they won't care.
11. Don’t hinge your adventure on the players figuring out a specific clue. Just because it seems obvious to you doesn't mean that it will seem obvious to your players. Have multiple clues, and/or multiple entries.
a. Know what you will do if they never figure out the clue.
12. Failing to solve the puzzle can cost them hit points, time, resources, curses, some treasure, or surprise attacks, but it should never cost them the adventure.
a. Some nice treasure can be behind the secret door, but the quest object cannot. [Unless there's another way to find it.]
13. If you aren’t willing for the players to have it, don’t put it in the game. Remember that if the NPC uses an item on the PCs, there are only two possible outcomes:
a. They party will all die, or
b. The party will wind up with the item.
14. The players do not have the right to screw up the game. They do have the right to screw up your plot. Don’t confuse the two.
a. Do not give them a set of options that includes screwing up the game.
b. “Screwing up the game” includes genre-busting. Medieval fantasies don’t have railroads, factories, or atomic power; the players have no right to introduce them (unless genre-busting is a focus for that game).
15. The dice do not have the right to screw up the game. They do have the right to screw up your plot. Don’t confuse the two.
a. Do not roll a die if the result could screw up the game.
16. The DM does not have the right to screw up the PC's story. He does have the right to screw up the PCs' plans. Don’t confuse the two.
a. The player does have the right to screw up the PC's story -- even by accident. If a 2nd level PC chooses to attack a dragon, then the PC's death is his doing, not the DM's.
17. There are players who see the world as a series of activities they can safely and straightforwardly defeat, and there are players who see the world as a dangerous world with life-threatening risks behind every bush. You cannot run the same game for both sets. Neither is inherently bad, but know which kind of players you have.
a. If the term "CR" is a common part of the players' conversation, assume that you have the first group, and plan accordingly. Never count on them deciding to run away from an encounter.
18. When the players ask for something - an item, a skill, a feat, whatever - they are not planning to use it for what it is intended for, they're planning the weirdest thing it could possibly be used for. [If they were planning to use it as intended, then they wouldn’t bother to ask.]
19. A backstory is like a sword. Some characters are incomplete without one, and others wouldn't use one even if they had it.
20. A player's backstory isn't your toy to destroy if you want; it's part of their toy. You can threaten their friends, family, or homes, but by the end of the adventure, the players should not feel abused. Use their family as hostages, but expect them to be rescued, and to come home with more than they started with. If you burn down their cottage, they should wind up with a castle. The players should be glad that the backstory was used, not sorry that they had a background.
21. In every session, each PC should have at least one crucial moment when they are the essential character.
a. Identify the loudest player and the pushiest player. You will never need to set up their moments; they will do so.
b. Identify the quietest player and the least active player. You will need to set up their moments every session, and make it impossible for the first two to take these moments over.
22. A game is a co-operative venture. You don't have the right to force players into your game against their will, and for the same reasons, players don't have the right to force themselves into your game against your will.
a. Not all games are alike, and that's fine. Not all players want the same things out of a game, and that's fine.
b. Avoid having players who won't like the kind of game you're running. And then run a game your players will enjoy.
23. When a PC gets a great new ability, there needs to be an encounter in the next session for which that ability is devastatingly effective. Otherwise it doesn’t exist. There should also be an encounter in the next session in which it is useless. Otherwise, the rest of that character doesn’t exist.
24. The purpose of wandering monsters is to prevent the game from bogging down. If the players spend over five real minutes in useless discussion, then it's ghoul o'clock.
a. Be careful with this. Not all discussion is useless.
b. There should be encounters that have nothing to do with the main quest, or there is no world – just a party and a quest.
25. When the party’s victory is assured, the encounter has lost all suspense. Mop-up combat is boring, so end it.
a. Remember, the NPCs don’t want to die; they would usually rather flee, negotiate, or surrender.
b. One round earlier, when you know the PCs have won and they don’t yet, is a great time for the NPCs to offer to negotiate.
c. This is your opportunity to force-feed them that obvious fact they’ve been missing, and let them believe they earned it.
26. When you design a scenario, you should be firmly on the players' side, trying to produce encounters in which they have every legitimate chance to succeed (and that poor play and bad decisions can still let them fail). But when running the scenario, you need to be a fair and neutral judge of the PCs' actions.
27. As far as possible, interact with the characters, not the players.
a. The player is asking about the rules. The character is asking about the orcs. Don’t confuse the two.
28. Don't plan how to answer a player's question until you know what the question is. And don't approach all players the same.
a. The player who asks for nonsense should most often get a "No". The player whose requests are pretty basic and reasonable should most often get a "Yes". The player who asks for something cool and cinematic, but unlikely, requires a careful judgment call. She should sometimes get it -- but rarely enough that it creates a climactic moment, not an average move.
b. Think about a movie where you've seen something like this happen. Did the hero do it often? Probably the player should be allowed to do it often. Did the hero do it once, as a desperate move, at the big finish? Then save it for the big finish.
29. The player identifies with the PC, and will take what happens to the PC personally. If the PC wants to defeat the orcs, then the player wants to defeat the orcs. The DM does not have that luxury. The orcs want to kill the PCs, but the DM should not.
a. Follow Matt Dillon’s principle: “I never hang anybody. The law does.” The DM should never kill a PC. Sometimes the game might.
30. When the players come up with something you never considered, stop and think. This is the source of your absolute best, most perfect moments. It’s also where all scenario-destroying mistakes come from. Ask yourself which it is before you react.
a. "Scenario-ending" and "scenario-destroying" are not (necessarily) synonyms. You may have planned a major battle in front of the black Gate. But a PC endings the quest by throwing the Ring into the Cracks of Doom could still be a satisfying, if abrupt, ending.
31. You are here to give the players a challenge. But the challenge should be within the game (dragons, traps, puzzles), not playing the game (mapping, tracking equipment).
a. Having said that, they are in still charge of their character sheets and their equipment.
32. Remind them of things that their characters would not have forgotten, but not things that characters will forget.
a. The PCs can’t forget that they picked up a magic glaive, so if they start looking around for a long weapon, remind them that they have it. And they won’t forget the face of the sorceress who destroyed their village. But if they forgot that the blacksmith said he heard about ogres in the hills, then the PCs weren’t paying attention.
b. This can require some careful judgment calls.
33. You will make mistakes -- lots of them. A crucial skill to be a good DM is the ability to fix mistakes and as quickly and seamlessly as possible.
a. This will sometimes involve admitting them. It will also sometimes involve keeping the players from ever seeing them.
b. In either case, the point is to make the game go forward, not to repair your ego.
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2020-05-25, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Is good.
Corollary to #1: PCs are flammable.
Re #9: This is the Chesterton's Fence issue. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki...rton%27s_fence
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2020-05-25, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
There are some details that are different from how the tables I sit at mostly run, but I think the big picture is pretty much right--and it's probable-shading-to-certain that there are tables I don't sit at that run consistent with those details.
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2020-05-25, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-05-25, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Well, rule 1 applies to any and all forms of destruction, dunnit? I mean, if you make something susceptible to being struck by lighting, that's what the PCs will do, right? And in principle, just about any form of destruction can be applied to the PCs.
One of the things I like best about GMing advice is when it conflicts with my own opinions, because it makes me examine why I think and believe what I do. Seems fair to point out there are elements in this that do exactly that.
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2020-05-25, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Lots to comment on here. As always, play it the way YOU want, not just the way someone else tells you you should.
These rules were written for myself, for the way I run games. Not everybody agrees on how to run a game, and there's nothing wrong with that.
2. The DM cannot make the PCs more complex than the players do. No matter what the character sheet says, there are usually only three PC alignments – Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.
4. It's your job to build the problem. It's their job to find a solution. If you create a death trap with only one solution, then then they cannot get out unless they figure out what your solution is. But if you build death trap with no solutions, then any clever plan they come up with might work.
a. The purpose of a death trap is not death; it is to make the players feel clever. Don't build one to cause death, and more importantly, don't build one to make them feel stupid.
5. Never let a player roll a die unless it is reasonable to roll a 20, and reasonable to roll a 1.
a. If there's no way to fail, don't roll. If there's no way to succeed, don't roll.
6. At the start of the game, you should have in mind several ways for the PCs to fail. By contrast, it is not your job to find a way for them to succeed.
7. Reward good tactics, consistent characterization, and brilliant ideas more than lucky die rolls.
8. A role-playing game is run by rules. But it isn't made out of rules; it's made out of ideas, characters, and imagination.
9. The more completely you know the rules, the better you can be at ignoring them when necessary.
a. "When necessary" means it should be rare, forced by an unusual situation, and non-intrusive. [And some people believe it should not happen even then.]
b. Applying the rules is like eating food. That should always happen. Ignoring the rules is like taking medicine; it's only a good idea if something is wrong.
c. Never change a rule unless you know why it was written.
10. Never base a campaign on something you are more excited about than your players are.
Know what you will do if they never figure out the clue.
13. If you aren’t willing for the players to have it, don’t put it in the game. Remember that if the NPC uses an item on the PCs, there are only two possible outcomes:
a. They party will all die, or
b. The party will wind up with the item.
Medieval fantasies don’t have railroads, factories, or atomic power; the players have no right to introduce them (unless genre-busting is a focus for that game).
15. The dice do not have the right to screw up the game. They do have the right to screw up your plot. Don’t confuse the two.
a. Do not roll a die if the result could screw up the game.
16. The DM does not have the right to screw up the PC's story. He does have the right to screw up the PCs' plans. Don’t confuse the two.
a. The player does have the right to screw up the PC's story -- even by accident. If a 2nd level PC chooses to attack a dragon, then the PC's death is his doing, not the DM's.
Never count on them deciding to run away from an encounter.
18. When the players ask for something - an item, a skill, a feat, whatever - they are not planning to use it for what it is intended for, they're planning the weirdest thing it could possibly be used for. [If they were planning to use it as intended, then they wouldn’t bother to ask.]
20. A player's backstory isn't your toy to destroy if you want; it's part of their toy. You can threaten their friends, family, or homes, but by the end of the adventure, the players should not feel abused. Use their family as hostages, but expect them to be rescued, and to come home with more than they started with. If you burn down their cottage, they should wind up with a castle. The players should be glad that the backstory was used, not sorry that they had a background.
If you use one PC's backstory to create adventures then in most peoples perceptions you're being unfair to all the players whose backstories you DON'T build adventures on. Or you have one PC whose backstory lends itself to a series of... 20 adventures. Another PC has a backstory that isn't really conducive to more than 1. So you base the next year of the campaign on the backstory of the first PC while the second gets one brief moment in the backstory spotlight for a single session and that's it for them. So whose FAULT is that? Is that fair? Is that what backstories are really for? What if you have a player who doesn't EVER want their PC in the spotlight because the player isn't up for it? What if I have created a campaign that would end up being Lord of the Rings but the PC with all the backstory is Ash from the Evil Dead? Do I spoil my LotR campaign with Evil Dead elements because I am expected to incorporate ALL PC backstories EQUALLY into whatever campaign I have planned? What kind of DM am I if I haven't even planned a campaign but expect the backstories of the players to create one for me? What kind of player am I if I expect MY characters backstory to be as important or more important than whatever the DM had planned?
If a DM wants to use character backstories to flesh out the campaign - whether the DM had anything fleshed out already or not - that's fine (although a DM that has nothing planned for a campaign and is counting on PC backstories to make one strikes me as probably a pretty unimaginative and lazy DM). But PC backstory that ends up being used should not elevate any one PC to a position of overriding importance for the campaign unless all the other players are okay with that. Even then, if that PC then dies the campaign MUST be able to go on without them. If the DM does use any amount of backstory it can't be expected that all backstories will be given equal importance and relevance. ALL the players have to be okay with that too. No DM should ever REQUIRE backstory from players, and if they do then, "Is an orphan who found a bag of money and decided to be an adventurer," is all that they actually have a RIGHT to if the player - for whatever reasons - isn't inclined to write more.
Most of all, however, I don't think a backstory should EVER be a valid vehicle for any PC to leverage just to "get moar stuff!" No castles, titles, inheritances, relics or artifacts, special powers, rights, privileges, or protections, etc. etc. It doesn't entitle you to anything more or less than what any other PC is entitled to but who DIDN'T write a backstory that says they already own it or are owed it.
21. In every session, each PC should have at least one crucial moment when they are the essential character.22a. Not all games are alike, and that's fine. Not all players want the same things out of a game, and that's fine.23. When a PC gets a great new ability, there needs to be an encounter in the next session for which that ability is devastatingly effective. Otherwise it doesn’t exist. There should also be an encounter in the next session in which it is useless. Otherwise, the rest of that character doesn’t exist.
24. The purpose of wandering monsters is to prevent the game from bogging down.
27. As far as possible, interact with the characters, not the players.
a. The player is asking about the rules. The character is asking about the orcs. Don’t confuse the two.
The player who asks for something cool and cinematic, but unlikely, requires a careful judgment call. She should sometimes get it -- but rarely enough that it creates a climactic moment, not an average move.
31. You are here to give the players a challenge. But the challenge should be within the game (dragons, traps, puzzles), not playing the game (mapping, tracking equipment).
a. Having said that, they are in still charge of their character sheets and their equipment.
In either case, the point is to make the game go forward, not to repair your ego.
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2020-05-25, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Lets see....
Good start and good advice. And this is even more generic, though I'm not use how to word "make anything PC proof"....
Well, no there are lots of PC alignments like Clueless and Follower and such. And while a number of players want zero complexity, a large number do want it, but don't know how. A DM that helps a player become a more complex player gets a good reward.
No. Players want all sorts of things, unless that is just what your saying here. But then this should be more like "the wants of a player change day to day, or even more often".
Well you start with problems and solutions, but then focus only on death traps. Maybe more encounter problems should be made as detailed and complex as possible: more working parts equals more things that can be effected, blocked or whatever. Except for very silly stuff, you should give any "MacGyvering" a rough 50% of working or at least being partly effective.
This one is good, and goes with number four of giving complex details. If the trapped room has a one foot round air hole the PCs should notice that with out asking and making a roll.
Fail? That does not sound right. Maybe At the start of the game, you should have in mind several ways for the PCs to have an adventure. (and for the players to have fun).
Good one here....except never reward dice rolls: really what would be the point.
Good.
Eh, well I'm far more Old School so I think of the rules as suggestions. Though saying "changing a rule should be a rare thing. There are plenty of ways for a DM to add to a game, take away from a game or change things in a game while using the rules."
This is such a tough one. It's sooooo hard to get most players even slightly excited about something that they want to do, let alone anything else. That being said, a DM should always be super excited about the base of a campaign: it will show in everything the DM does. The unexcited DM that does not care is the worst.
True. Follow the three clue rule, at least.
Well.....no. The worst thing the Pcs can do is fail the adventure, and it should always be on the table. The chance of failure is what makes the reward of success so great. There is a huge difference between a group that finished the adventure that they knew they could never fail, and the group that fought and thought tooth and mind vs a DM controlling a hostile world directly opposed against their characters succeeding.
Very true, good one.
Good enough.
Well, again here I'd point to the randomness of the dice roll to be a great thing in an RPG. And "the game" and "the DMs plot" is a bit blurry. Still a dice roll could and should have the chance of radically altering the game, in just about any unforeseen direction.
A bit of odd word play as is what is a Pcs "story" vs a "plan"? Even the vague statement you seem to be making of "the only time and way a DM can ever screw over a PC is when they willing take an action that has consequences. It sounds good that ok the DM can kill a 2nd level PC that attacks a dragon, but at the same time a DM should and must be able to take any action in the whole game world without first having the Pc roll out a red carpet and givng the DM permission to do so.
This falls under the more general know and understand your players.
Well, not always true. And it's a bit vague. Maybe more like players often try strange, crazy or weird things with items, skills, feats or whatever and as a DM you should be ready for this.
In just about all cases the game rules should always apply to any strange, crazy or weird things a player attempts to do.(Just like the DM above). Most things should work, at least partly, but often won't make the 'giant leap' the player wants.
Good enough
Er, well this is like the above saying the DM can't do anything negative to a characters back story. If the player wishes for their back story to be an active part of the game, they must accept what happens.
Yes, a good one.
OK
Good one.
Ok
Good one
Well, big no here. The DM is not playing the game with a fictional character, they are playing the game with another real person. The DM and player should interact often.
Ok
This is true for DMs, note it should also be true of players.
Good one.
Er, feels a bit odd. Playing the game is a huge challenge to many players.
Fair enough, though I require players to take notes.
Ok
Hummmm....this makes me want to post my own version.
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2020-05-26, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Re number 3:
I would suggest “What the players say they want and what they actually want are rarely the same”. Players often say they want edge of their seats, difficult, do or die encounters. What they really want is ROFL stomps, lots of loot with a tough boss fight every now and then. Players say they want complex multilayered puzzles, but when they encounter such a problem they’ll hit it with increasingly bigger hammers until it breaks.
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2020-05-26, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
@Jay R Is it okay if I copy these for my own uses? I'll credit you as "Jay R from GiantITP".
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2020-05-26, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Generalized beyond burning, absolutely. Don't introduce a PC that you don't want to die.
Generalized, players want to feel heroic. What feels heroic, in the moment is to curbstomp their opponents. What feels heroic, the next day, is to have eked out a victory against apparently insurmountable odds.
A good mix of the two is probably a good idea.
As others have pointed out, and I believe you intended, the point is not to make something from which no escape is possible. The point is to not commit yourself to one solution for escape, as by doing so you will bias yourself against the ideas of your players.
As a second point, remember that your trap exists in context - the thing it protects needs access, and the people making it had limited resources. As a GM you have unlimited funds, and don't need to worry about the practicalities. If the Artifact Of Doom is behind a trap, remember that at some point somebody will need it, and the point of the trap is to keep out the people who shouldn't have access... this provides the window the PCs need to exploit.
I've started to prefer looking at rolls in many cases as "goes well" and "goes poorly" instead of "succeeds" and "fails". While often times those map directly, it offers a few other options in cases where there's uncertainty, even if the overall "success" or "failure" is obvious.
This goes back to the idea of having traps with no preset solution. By not designing a success path, you open yourself to what the players come up with.
Games are a series of interesting decisions. Focus on the decisions more than the rolls. Good play is not a matter of optimizing bonuses, it's a matter of putting yourself in positions where the rolls won't kill you.
... and figuring out what your players are excited about and adding it to your game is a wonderful thing to do. You still get to invest in it - they're giving you ingredients, you get to make the dish.
And your plot shouldn't be a completely linear set of things, otherwise if you give them any choices at all they will screw it up. This goes hand-in-hand with the "don't make solutions for your trap" advice - the more you're open to what the players do, the better off you are. They're supposed to make decisions - any point in your prep where you start putting down things "and then the players will/must" you're in dangerous territory.
At the minimum, be aware of the two. Tell the players which one you're doing. And make an early encounter, one way or the other, that establishes that. If they need to run away sometimes, give them something they should run away from, and tell them that in the middle of the encounter, and encourage them to do so.
This ties into the whole "find out what your players are invested in, and use that" bit.
Also, make sure you're clear about what kind of game you're running. "Let's do a roleplaying game" or "let's play D&D" are massively insufficient. Talk about your expectations and how you think you're going to run things. Use examples. General terms can be misinterpreted. Specific examples are often easier to get crisp about.
This is definitely situational. Sometimes random encounters exist to show the danger of the world and the cost of travel.
Both sides of this are super important. The players must believe that they both can succeed, and can fail. That's where suspense comes into play.
If they ever start believing that one or the other is untrue, they'll check out. Sometimes this won't even be at a conscious level.
If they never fail, they'll figure that out eventually. A lesser threat you're willing to follow through on is more effective than a bigger threat that you won't.
Also, have negative consequences in your bag besides death, or even personal consequences. Sometimes the bad guys win, at least temporarily. This happens in every movie.
If your players are generally acting in good faith, presume they're acting in good faith, and that they're proposing something because it makes sense to them. Try to find a way that it makes sense.
"Makes sense" should be based on what is revealed, not your plans behind the curtain.
The scenario may end in lots of ways, and that's cool. Maybe the bad guys win and summon demons and now the game is about pushing back the invasion. That's just as cool as heroically stopping the summoning ritual.
The PCs live in this world, moment to moment. The brief conversation with a blacksmith, in game time, may be several hours, but will take two minutes in table time and then not thought about until next week. Do not make the players remember things the PC would remember. And err on the side of the PC remembering.
Once the mistake is obvious to the players, own it. Unless you're dealing with a bunch of jerks, they'll understand that you're human."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2020-05-26, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
This so much, people in general are absolutely awful at figuring out and then communicating what they actually want. A player will say "Oh I want a layered plot, complex characters, a dramatic story" while he really wants to smash hordes of goblins and gather mountains of loot, but for some reason our mind is conditioned to think the first thing that comes to our mind when we think of fun is somehow "bad", and has to make up something more interesting, more "correct".
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2020-05-27, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
31. You are here to give the players a challenge. But the challenge should be within the game (dragons, traps, puzzles), not playing the game (mapping, tracking equipment).
a. Having said that, they are in still charge of their character sheets and their equipment.
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2020-05-27, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-05-27, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-05-28, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
I'm finding #24 to be the most troublesome when worded this way. Sure, there are moments when wandering monsters are great for moving the game along, or bringing in some excitement or action-scene. However, it can vary greatly between players what is thought of as "useless" when it comes to discussion. And sometimes, you need moments to unwind and relax (more slow scenes), you really can't keep up high adrenaline for several hours.
Basically, it ties into "the flow of the game", which is often an overlooked part for many DMs. And just like everyone likes different movies, so do players prefer different games. Some people think Game of Thrones has too much talky bits, and some people think Jason Statham movies have too much action.
I prefer to think of it as something akin to:
#24: One reason for wandering monsters is to kick-start the game when a scene has dragged out too long and everyone is feeling bored.
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2020-05-28, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
#24 The primary reason for wandering monsters is to make time a meaningful resource, so the players don't waste it.
Personally I'm not a fan of DM judgement on if they should happen. Give the players the chance of it happening per period of time, let them decide if they want to use time or not. No need for them to look sideways at the DM to see if they're using it usefully in the DMs judgement, they can decide themselves.Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-05-28 at 02:36 PM.
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2020-05-28, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
I'd go with:
#24: The Primary reason for random encounters is to make the gameplay feel more chaotic and real.
Too many games do either the:
1.Set encounters only happen at set times and set places according to the DMs plot and story
Or
2.Encounters only happen when the players wish to have one and give the DM permission to do so.
Both are horrible as they only have some encounters at some times. They loose that random chaos of life. An RPG is best when it's a living breathing world well out of anyone's control.
Well, there is no one else at the table to do it, so this burden like many others must fall on the DM.
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2020-05-28, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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2020-05-28, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
34. It is ok for the DM to deliberately murder a PC if:-
(a) the player is not having fun playing the character and playing a different character will cause that player to have fun.
(b) the character is causing other players to not have fun.
However;
- it is never OK for the player to become aware that it was a planned hit.
- It is never OK to murder a character because the DM has issues with the player.
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2020-05-28, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
A DM who sets out to deliberately kill PC's just to prove they can do it doesn't deserve to be a DM
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN BACK TRYING TO SHUT THEIR EYES AND BLOCK THEIR EARS!
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2020-05-28, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
2. The DM cannot make the PCs more complex than the players do. No matter what the character sheet says, there are usually only three PC alignments – Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.
alignments don't exist. period. these are just stereotypes based on lowest common denominator DnD nonsense or rolepalying horror stories. I don't think this should rule should exist. I've never seen anybody fall into any of these.Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2020-05-28 at 11:38 PM.
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2020-05-29, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
I recognize the stereotypes, but I think it's a bad rule for other reasons. For one, taken at face value, it's not an actual productive game rule a GM can follow, just a statement of limited player ability. For two, I don't think the statement is true. Having played characters made by others and having run games with variety of prewritten and random characters, I think it's easy for a character designer to give ideas to players that they wouldn't otherwise think of.
---
Originally Posted by Jay R
I'd revise the rule as "run the game you want to run and your players want to play in, not the game you want to play in", because running a game and playing it are frequently different beasts.
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2020-05-29, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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2020-05-30, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
That has little to do with what I wrote.
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2020-05-30, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
I'll reply to this, differently: Running a game and playing in a game are different things, but if you've played in enough games you've probably seen GMs do things you didn't like; don't do those. You've probably seen GMs do things you like; do those. Also, it's not necessarily bad to run a game you'd love to play in, if your preferences aren't relentlessly fringe.
That at least seems more responsive, no? I know that I've learned a lot about the type of game I like, playing in a lot of games, and I try to run a game I like--both a game I enjoy running and a game I'd like to play in.
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2020-05-30, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
You're still barely touching what Jay R's rule and mine are about. We were writing about GM's motivation to run a specific type of game. You're talking about empirically learning from played games. Two different topics. Even if the game I want to run is also a game I'd like to play in, it does not follow that running it is at all similar than playing in it.
Let's take a few example to make it more obvious what I actually meant:
1) There's a convention coming. Person A wants to play a basket-weaving game in the convention. Person B wants to run a basket-weaving game in the convention. Which of these people is more likely to actually make the game happen in the convention?
2) There are two groups with rotating GMs. In Group A, they rotate the GM as a compromise because everyone wants to play, but no-one wants to run a game. In Group B, they rotate the GM because everyone wants to run a game in addition to wanting to play in each other's games. Which of these groups has a better dynamic?
3) A couple of people buy a gamebook. None of their friends really know what RPGs are. Person A isn't very excited about the game. Person B is excited about playing the game, but not about running it. Person C is really excited about getting to run the game. Which of these people is most likely to tell their friends about the game and make them excited enough to play it?Last edited by Vahnavoi; 2020-05-30 at 02:58 PM.
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2020-05-30, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
That's fair. I guess I was thinking that (to pick an example) a game of Call of Cthulhu that you run might well be very different from one that I run. So "run the game you want to play" doesn't 100% map to "run the rules you want to play." I didn't see anything in JayR's rule that specified rulesets. One person's D&D game might be all kick-in-the-door dungeoncrawling, another's might be more centered around the characters' pasts and goals and be story- or goal- or quest-based (pick your word, there; IMO they're close but not identical).
To answer your examples, One and Three are obvious (the person who wants to run, in both cases), but while I'll concede that in Example Two Group B is likely having a better time, that doesn't necessarily mean their dynamic is better: Group A can have just as good a dynamic as far as gameplay and intragroup relationships go. So long as no one goes Full Metal Martyr, rotating what they all find less-preferable doesn't seem to me as though it must be better than rotating that which they all want to do.
My own approach has been to run campaigns I'd love to play in. Not so much the game I want to play in as a game I want to play in. None of them are centered around anything so obscure as Andalusian barbed-wire weaving, and the players seem to all be enjoying themselves.
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2020-05-30, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Paris, France
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Re: Rules for DMs -- again
Very solid! I'm impressed. I can get behind pretty much everything - I think your rules are sensible, and more than that, they show an understanding of GMing gained through trial, error and experience. I generally aspire to follow that kind of advice.
Just for the sake of being nitpicky, I'd say that in regards to rule 24, wandering monsters, if they consist of an unplanned encounter, can sometimes bog down the game far more than a conversation could. If it's a quick ghoul or two and it's over in a couple rounds, sure. But the encounter being random, since by definition the GM hasn't researched and designed the encounter around the monster's abilities, tactics and terrain, runs the risk of being either boring or having unforeseen consequences ("oops, I didn't see that monster could paralyze with a touch, and it's the one thing the PCs can't cure. Let's get out of the dungeon now I guess"). And there are other ways to deal with an improductive conversation that's bogging down the game: oftentimes, just reminding the players of their options and asking them what they do will take care of it.
So in the case of rule 24, I would use one of three solutions: either use a monster that you know will be quickly and easily defeated ; use a wandering encounter that you prepared and have on hand, ready to spring at any moment ; or just interrupt the conversation by introducing another event, or just by pointedly asking "what do you do?".
As for rule 31, I agree that I don't like to bother (or make my players bother) about things like encumbrance or keeping track of trail rations, unless it's a situation where it should specifically matter, and then the session will be designed around it. Mapping, however, can be a fun and immersive part of exploring a dungeon or unknown wilderness. (Especially when you have puzzles relying on the layout of the map. I've seen it used at least twice, and used it myself at least once.)Avatar by Mr_Saturn
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2020-05-30, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
No, it's pretty accurate.
It probably just needs a sub-letter caveat:
a) don't run a game you're really not interested in. You'll burn out.
The way it's written, it more about GMs being super excited about something really niche for a campaign theme, based on something the GM know a lot about. You won't hold their attention if you run a game based on your in-depth knowledge of Anime X setting if your players have absolutely no clue what's going on. That's why I don't seriously bone up and read everything I can find on Forgotten Realms lore. I want to be able to use it as a viable backdrop for campaigns.
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2020-05-30, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: Rules for DMs -- again
That's why my rule has that "and" clause. Regardless, I think you're getting sidetracked by exaggarated example - Jay R notes that some of his rules are exaggerated for punchiness. Because regardless of how niche a game is, the GM typically will have to know more about both the rules and the setting, than their players. That requires more "excitement" or it will get mentally exhausting.
Let's flip this around and think of what happens if the GM is less excited about the game than the players. F. ex. you're trying to hold a Realms game, but all your players are putting more work into knowing the setting than you are. How's that a better dynamic?