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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Not really an optimization thread so much as one curious about a concept and how to best go about building it.

    You see with movies like Equilibrium and now the FF7:Remake- I'm quite fond of what is commonly referred to as "Gun Kata" AKA "martial arts with guns".
    Now in D&D I'm curious about making what I would call "Bow Kata" or obviously martial arts with a bow.

    The idea is that our only weapon is the Longbow- whether at range or in melee. With an emphasis on skilled shooting that goes beyond the standard what most people can do and wielding the bow in melee to a potential few can match.

    To my way of thinking (no Unearthed Arcana and Point-Buy being the prime points) the best way to go about this would be Kensei Monk and Battlemaster Fighter.

    Is this the way to go about it? If not what would you suggest? If so then what all should I be looking for to better build on it? Sharpshooter for example seems a given.

    Note:
    Kensei Monk may pick one melee and one ranged simple or martial weapon to be their Kensei Weapon- which then functions as a Monk Weapon.
    My understanding is that the specifics of Monk/Kensei Weapons trump the general rule of Ammunition weapons being Improvised Weapons when used in melee but even if it didn't you could simply state you kick someone or punch them in melee and you'd have the same exact damage so arguing about that particular part seems a waste of time.

    Note again:
    I understand Crossbows are a thing- I don't want to use Crossbows or Hand Crossbows.
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-27 at 05:46 PM.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Even without a crossbow you'll need the Crossbow Expert feat since it allows you to make ranged attacks while in melee with any weapon. You might be able to get away without this if your DM will let your longbow be your melee monk weapon and you could just smack people with it.
    Otherwise Battlemaster 3/ Kensai x seems like a good bet. I'd probably go monk 5/ battle master 3/ monk x.
    Last edited by Bobthewizard; 2020-05-27 at 05:54 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthewizard View Post
    Even without a crossbow you'll need the Crossbow Expert feat since it allows you to make ranged attacks while in melee with any weapon. You might be able to get away without this if your DM will let your longbow be your melee monk weapon and you could just smack people with it.
    I would certainly argue it should work so easily- you can just say you hold the bow in one hand and judo chop them repeatedly with your free hand to deal the same damage and AFAIK nothing mechanically would change for using your two-handed bow instead. You don't gain additional Martial Arts damage for two-handing the thing.
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Been thinking of doing a similar thing with a kiting bow person. Like your kata bow idea better though. We'll be watching this thread.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    The best option is to fluff the Monk's unarmed attacks, so you make a melee attack with the bow, or stab someone with an arrow but mechanically you just make an unarmed strike.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    The best option is to fluff the Monk's unarmed attacks, so you make a melee attack with the bow, or stab someone with an arrow but mechanically you just make an unarmed strike.
    Awww but I even went through the trouble of finding the bow equivalent to Kensei, Yusei, 弓聖.
    Kensei honestly seems to have everything I need but I also really want the skill expression a Battlemaster brings to the table.

    The idea of sniping a weapon out of someone's hands with an arrow has always greatly appealed to me.
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    I would certainly argue it should work so easily- you can just say you hold the bow in one hand and judo chop them repeatedly with your free hand to deal the same damage and AFAIK nothing mechanically would change for using your two-handed bow instead. You don't gain additional Martial Arts damage for two-handing the thing.
    Crossbow Expert lets you make Ranged attacks (regardless of what you use to make such an attack; be it weapon or spell) in melee range without disadvantage. Note: you can make ranged attacks in melee range without the feat as well, it just has disadvantage, so BobTheWizard was slightly erroneous in this regard.

    Anyway, wasn't this the idea all along, using your bow and only the bow as your weapon? Judo Chopping or otherwise punching with the hand holding the bow is a different "weapon". Also, the damage type is different (piercing vs. bludgeoning).
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-05-27 at 10:02 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Anyway, wasn't this the idea all along, using your bow and only the bow as your weapon? Judo Chopping or otherwise punching with the hand holding the bow is a different "weapon". Also, the damage type is different (piercing vs. bludgeoning).
    To be clear- the only reason I brought that up was because the last person I mentioned the idea to insisted they'd insist the Bow was an Improvised Weapon and so even if a Monk took it as a Kensei Weapon you could not be Proficient in it or do anything else related to the idea.

    We had an extended argument before someone else entirely pointed out we were dumb because mechanically you could just throw a punch and accomplish the same thing so hitting them with the Bow itself wouldn't be any real difference.

    That's why I mentioned it. Mechanically there is no difference between using the Bow as a melee Monk Weapon and just kicking someone in the nads. Bludgeoning either way and the same hit die. I obviously want to use the Bow but if arguments arise I have the easy counter of the distinction between Bow and Fist being meaningless to a Monk.
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-27 at 10:12 PM.
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    To be clear- the only reason I brought that up was because the last person I mentioned the idea to insisted they'd insist the Bow was an Improvised Weapon and so even if a Monk took it as a Kensei Weapon you could not be Proficient in it or do anything else related to the idea.

    We had an extended argument before someone else entirely pointed out we were dumb because mechanically you could just throw a punch and accomplish the same thing so hitting them with the Bow itself wouldn't be any real difference.

    That's why I mentioned it. Mechanically there is no difference between using the Bow as a melee Monk Weapon and just kicking someone in the nads. Bludgeoning either way and the same hit die. I obviously want to use the Bow but if arguments arise I have the easy counter of the distinction between Bow and Fist being meaningless to a Monk.
    There is truth in those arguments about improvised weapons, but not the whole truth. Making a melee attack with a bow is an attack with an improvised weapon, but due to its shape and weight it would be reasonable, according to Improvised Weapon Rule, to use the game statistics of a club, which is a simple weapon, which makes it a monk weapon, and statistically would be equal with making an unarmed strike as a monk.

    However, the point wasn't to dispute your logic. It was to further support the feat as a very solid option for your build regardless of its name, 'Crossbow' Expert.

    As for the whole concept, I'd say you have it about right: Kensei/Battle Master would be quite handy combination for what you're trying to accomplish, especially if you want to avoid using magic.

    Since you can't always count on getting your hands on a magic longbow, I'd say you should aim for at least 6 levels in Kensei. Since your weapon of choice is the Longbow (d8) it doesn't really matter if your Martial Arts die doesn't get any higher from there, since you can always make the choice yourself: whether to use the weapon's die or the Martial Arts die. After 6th level, you could take 3 or 4 levels in Battle Master. Maybe more if you don't mind getting one slightly redundant level (fighter 5th) due to multiple Extra Attack features not stacking. 6 ki points/sr is quite alright when you also have 4 superiority dice/sr.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-05-27 at 11:02 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    As to the whole melee bow being an Improvised Weapon thing... Tavern Brawler makes you proficient with Improvised Weapons so you can totally make a Bow (improvised club) or Arrow (Improvised dagger) a Kensei Weapon.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpldorf View Post
    As to the whole melee bow being an Improvised Weapon thing... Tavern Brawler makes you proficient with Improvised Weapons so you can totally make a Bow (improvised club) or Arrow (Improvised dagger) a Kensei Weapon.
    Improvised Weapon is not a Weapon. Period.
    Tavern Brawler doesn't change the fact. Meaning, you totally cannot choose an Improvised Weapon as your Kensei Weapon (so, no, you can't choose an Arrow to be a Kensei Weapon).
    At least not by RAW. However, I won't argue it wouldn't be cool, and a particularly lenient DM might let you do so anyway, but that would be a house rule.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-05-28 at 01:03 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    However, the point wasn't to dispute your logic. It was to further support the feat as a very solid option for your build regardless of its name, 'Crossbow' Expert.

    As for the whole concept, I'd say you have it about right: Kensei/Battle Master would be quite handy combination for what you're trying to accomplish, especially if you want to avoid using magic.
    I admittedly had messed up what the Crossbow Expert feat does. It isn't 100% based on shooting someone within 5 feet with the bow- it's based on being able to shoot anyone anywhere with a bow while you're in melee (typically 5 feet).
    I don't think my DM has ever brought that up in all honesty which is probably why I never thought of it correctly. Disadvantage with ranged attacks on someone within 5 feet yes but I dunno if he's ever imposed it for shooting someone elsewhere when in melee.

    I most certainly would consider that an important feat in these newfound circumstances- depending on whether my DM is doing that deliberately or not. It's something of a coin-flip.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Since you can't always count on getting your hands on a magic longbow, I'd say you should aim for at least 6 levels in Kensei. Since your weapon of choice is the Longbow (d8) it doesn't really matter if your Martial Arts die doesn't get any higher from there, since you can always make the choice yourself: whether to use the weapon's die or the Martial Arts die. After 6th level, you could take 3 or 4 levels in Battle Master. Maybe more if you don't mind getting one slightly redundant level (fighter 5th) due to multiple Extra Attack features not stacking. 6 ki points/sr is quite alright when you also have 4 superiority dice/sr.
    I definitely wanted at least 1 level of Fighter so as to get the Archery Fighting Style and the bonus to-hit but it does seem like diving fully into the bow-wielding Monk offers a good bit too.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    As a DM, I've been waiting patiently for a player to ask for improvised weapons as a Kensei weapon, effectively playing Jackie Chan.

    I'd do Kensei Monk with 3 levels of Battlemaster for the most simple build. Your "unarmed" strikes are made with the bow (or you can use the bow as an agile parry), or you can "aim" to add another d4 of damage to your ranged hits

    However, another thing you could consider is Battlemaster 5 / Rogue X with either Monk 1 or the Tavern Brawler Feat. This gives you something functionally similar as above, but without having to worry about Ki. Instead of having a scaling Martial Arts Die, you'd instead have scaling sneak attack shenanigans. I'd probably go either Swashbuckler or Inquisitive, although a scout could work as well.
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    Awww but I even went through the trouble of finding the bow equivalent to Kensei, Yusei, 弓聖.
    Kensei honestly seems to have everything I need but I also really want the skill expression a Battlemaster brings to the table.

    The idea of sniping a weapon out of someone's hands with an arrow has always greatly appealed to me.
    There's nothing wrong with Fighter/Monk multiclass so you don't worry too much if that is your goal.

    But just a note you don't need Battlemaster to disarm someone. Anything that you want to attempt that is not in the rules is simply up to the DM deciding how hard it is and consequently what rolls you need to make to succeed at it. And it's worth noting that the optional DMG rules for Disarm already allow for ranged disarm. So simply talk to the DM and see whether they want to use the DMG rules for Disarm and if not what the alternative rules would be.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Fighter/Monk multiclass so you don't worry too much if that is your goal.

    But just a note you don't need Battlemaster to disarm someone. Anything that you want to attempt that is not in the rules is simply up to the DM deciding how hard it is and consequently what rolls you need to make to succeed at it. And it's worth noting that the optional DMG rules for Disarm already allow for ranged disarm. So simply talk to the DM and see whether they want to use the DMG rules for Disarm and if not what the alternative rules would be.
    My DM would almost certainly file that under "called shots" and imposes a fairly hefty penalty to trying it (IIRC it's disadvantage and also a negative number to the roll).
    It's one reason Battlemaster is fairly important as it's exempt from that rule.

    I tread back and forth on that ruling- I do not like the idea of called shots to begin with but if they are in the game then I do expect them to be rather hard.
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-28 at 05:10 PM.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    For me, this concept fails because the first time you hit someone really hard with a bow, you no longer have a bow - you have two broken pieces of wood (or horn or bone) with some string connecting them.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    For me, this concept fails because the first time you hit someone really hard with a bow, you no longer have a bow - you have two broken pieces of wood (or horn or bone) with some string connecting them.
    I'll enjoy the concept all the more then.
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    My DM would almost certainly file that under "called shots" and imposes a fairly hefty penalty to trying it (IIRC it's disadvantage and also a negative number to the roll).
    It's one reason Battlemaster is fairly important as it's exempt from that rule.

    I tread back and forth on that ruling- I do not like the idea of called shots to begin with but if they are in the game then I do expect them to be rather hard.
    Fair enough, but this is very much a case of the DM being overly harsh since the rules exists in the DMG and he's making it harder, similarly to how some DMs make hiding virtually useless.

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    In 3.5 or maybe pathfinder there was a magic item called a Bow Staff, pretty basic item at a command word it could go from longbow to quarterstaff and back.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    In 3.5 or maybe pathfinder there was a magic item called a Bow Staff, pretty basic item at a command word it could go from longbow to quarterstaff and back.
    That was a spell in PF, at least, that let you use a bow as a quarterstaff.

    Come to think of it, that might work alright for 5e. They could just base it off of Shillelagh, and go from there?
    Last edited by Lille; 2020-05-29 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lille View Post
    That was a spell in PF, at least, that let you use a bow as a quarterstaff.

    Come to think of it, that might work alright for 5e. They could just base it off of Shillelagh, and go from there?
    I would just make an uncommon magic item, bow staff.
    Command word to change it from a bow to a quarterstaff.
    No magical enchantments come on it normally but it can be enchanted later.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I would just make an uncommon magic item, bow staff.
    Command word to change it from a bow to a quarterstaff.
    No magical enchantments come on it normally but it can be enchanted later.
    I personally was just going to think of it as reinforcing it with Ki.
    Like many Monk abilities use Ki 'the resource' but all of it uses Ki 'the concept' such as their ability to Slow Fall for example.

    I was just going to file, "strengthening bow for melee strikes" as part of it.
    Not augmented enough to count as magical (which needs 6 levels in Monk first) but enough that it wouldn't snap the first time you smacked someone.
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    I personally was just going to think of it as reinforcing it with Ki.
    Like many Monk abilities use Ki 'the resource' but all of it uses Ki 'the concept' such as their ability to Slow Fall for example.

    I was just going to file, "strengthening bow for melee strikes" as part of it.
    Not augmented enough to count as magical (which needs 6 levels in Monk first) but enough that it wouldn't snap the first time you smacked someone.
    If you are going to be using it in melee as a quarterstaff, depending on what race you pick, wood elf being a great choice, you will be proficient with a longbow anyway.

    Flurry can be used even with a longbow normally.

    Kensei is a pretty horrible subclass.

    However you could always see if your dm will let you consider the bow a club when improvised as a melee weapon, take longbow and improvised longbow as a club or great club as your kensei weapons.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Kensei is a pretty horrible subclass.
    What's so bad about Kensei?
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-29 at 06:50 PM.
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    What's so bad about Kensei?
    My Kensei Breakdown:

    A. Weapon Choice:

    A monk can already use dexterity with their monk weapons, and they can use dexterity with any weapon that they choose for their Kensei weapon.
    A monk also has no reason to not be using a weapon two handed if it is versatile because they can't use a shield and they can bonus action attack anyway so no reason to ever two weapon fight.
    You start with 2 choices, one melee and one ranged, but they can't be heavy and can't have special properties, so that leaves:

    Battleaxe/Longsword/Warhammer: Same weapon essentially, it is a 1d8 weapon with versatile 1d10. So one die size bigger damage if used two handed than a spear that you can already use but it is not a throwing weapon. 1 damage higher but not throwable, kind of breaks even.

    Flail/Morningstar/Pick: Same weapons again, but this time just non-versatile versions of the better ones. No reason to ever pick these.

    Rapier/Scimitar/Shortsword: The finesse property is redundant because you already can use dex, and light doesn't matter because you don't dual wield. So all these are replaceable with a spear or great club if you really wanted. Only reason to pick these is you pick the parry feat or you are multiclassing into rogue. But then again, you could just use a dagger or short sword, but you can't sneak attack with an unarmed strike, so just kind of ok, not great even then.

    Trident: It is just a worse spear... so no reason to pick it, ever.

    Whip: Gives reach, which can be nice, but it will always scale with your unarmed damage so you are not gaining any damage. A subclass pick to get a ranged option, maybe.

    Ranged Weapons: They might as well have just said, "Pick a melee weapon and a longbow"

    You get 5 choices over the subclass but you never have a reason to use more than 2, one ranged and one melee.
    Your melee choices are: 7 weapons that are the same as something you already use, or just plain worse, 3 weapons that are all the same but net you one point of damage for losing the thrown trait, and 1 weapon that is the a damage loss for a good while and then does no more than unarmed but gives you reach.

    B. 3rd level Kensei ability:

    Melee: You now know how to use your new weapon in melee, so at most you gained 1 point of damage in by giving up the versatility of using a spear as well as not using PAM if you chose to take it.
    However, for level 3 and 4 you only get one weapon attack and a bonus unarmed attack maybe 2 if you flurry. You can attack with your new weapon, or you can just stand there and hold it and use an unarmed strike like every other monk can do to gain +2 ac but now you have dropped from a 1d8 or maybe 1d10 damage to a 1d4 for that 2AC.
    At level 5+ you can make 2 weapon attacks and 1 or 2 unarmed, or you can make 1 weapon attack and 2 maybe 3 unarmed strikes to gain 2 AC. You are essentially giving up the whole point of the subclass to use a different part of the same subclass.

    Ranged: Bonus action to add 1d4 to each ranged attack. Nothing wrong with that. You can always make unarmed attacks while holding the Longbow so you can still make OA. The issue is that many monks are elves who can already use a longbow, and all monks can use a short bow so it is just a 2-3 damage boost at the cost of your bonus action.
    EX. Wood Elf is a VERY common race for monks, and they can all use a longbow. So any woodelf can attack at range if needed for 1d8 + Dex and use their bonus action for something like Step of the Wind/Patient Defense or and this is key Read the specific wording of Flurry of Blows compared to Martial Arts. Martial arts says: "When you use the Attack action with an unarmed
    strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action." but Flurry of Blows says:"Immediately after you take the Attack action on your
    turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action." It does not say it has to be a monk weapon. So you could shoot once, or twice if level 5+ then just spend a ki, walk over and unarmed attack twice with FoB.

    With monk's massive levels of mobility as is, it is already a great chance you can reach someone to unarmed attack, and would be almost impossible for you to not be in range for a bow attack.
    Is it worth it to give up 1 or maybe even 2 unarmed attack to do 1d4 extra damage with a bow shot? Maybe, but not very often.

    Another issue with archery based monks is ASI, Monks need a great Dex, a pretty good if not great Wis, and a good Con, but unlike classes like Fighter or Rogue, Monks don't get any bonus ASI, so you could easily get to level 16 before ever being able to take an archery based feat, also monks do not get a fighting style without multi classing. If I was going to make an archer monk, it would only be 3 levels of monk and the rest would be battle master.

    C: Level 6 features:

    Your Kensei Weapon counts as magic for overcoming damage resistance. Cool. But how long before that becomes redundant by you just getting a magic weapon. That and any monk can still just unarmed attack for magic damage if the have to. It also depends on: A. how often your DM uses resistant monsters, B. how the magic item distribution is in the game, and C. Will what you attack with really be that much better than an unarmed strike in the first place, by now your unarmed strikes are 1d6, the most you are going to get out of a weapon is 1d10 and that is only 2 attacks a round, only 1 if you want the 2 ac, if you are at ranged, the most common magic item in the entire game is a +1 arrow, by now you should have enough around to shoot a bow against things you simply can't reach that are ALSO resistant to non-magic that it shouldn't matter.

    other ability is 1ki for a mini-smite. In the long run not a great as just using that same ki for some of your other abilities, but on a crit i can see it being used against some targets. Not too cost effective but pretty good.

    You also get to pick another Kensei Weapon, so if you found a magic Longsword but your Kensei weapon was a battleaxe you can pick it up now, but that also makes a bigger chance that your first level 6 ability gets redundant early.

    D: Level 11 feature:

    Can spend 1/2/3 ki to give your Kensei weapon a + 1/2/3, not bad at all BUT, it does not stack with any other +s on the weapon already.
    If you have a +1 longsword, this ability is pointless unless you also carry a normal longsword you can pull to spend 3 ki to make it a +3.
    Most magic weapons have a +1/2/3 already so are out, if you do find one of the ones that don't like the flame tongue, you have to have picked it as a Kensei weapon.
    This feature also makes your level 6 ability redundant, again.
    Again also, if you want that +2 ac, you will only be attacking once with your new magic enhanced weapon, but 2 maybe 3 times with your unarmed strike.
    I can see this being good as a backup plan for if your weapons are taken, but then again, back to the idea that any monk can just attack unarmed for 1d8 by this point.
    IF and that is a big if, you can use this ability on your main weapon that is already magic, great, you got very lucky.
    For most of the time, this will not be getting used to its fullest at all.
    Also, another Kensei Weapon to pick from, at this point you have taken a Longbow and whatever 1d8 versatile 1d10 weapon you wanted, at level 3, so the rest are just whatever you find that is magic, make it a Kensei weapon.

    E. Level 17 Feature:

    A free re-roll on a miss once a turn. Yes, that is some kind of nice. Had to wade through some blah features to get it but sweet. This is what kensei should have been like all the way through.


    The Subclass is mediocre at best, but could have been so amazing if it was just tweeked a little bit.

    There is no need for that many Kensei weapon choices.

    Let them pick 1 weapon at level 3 and another at level 11.
    Their level 6 ability makes whatever weapon they picked a +1 weapon
    Level 11 makes it a +2, second weapon becomes +1
    Level 17 makes it a +3 , second weapon becomes +2

    Add in a clause of "as long as you have enough Ki points left in your pool = to the + you can have it is active" if you want.

    OR

    Let them pick unarmed strike as a Kensei weapon.

    I love the concept of the weapon master monk, they just really fouled it up.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    What's so bad about Kensei?
    Nothing. It's one of the strong monk subclasses, if a little dull. It's fine.

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    My Kensei Breakdown:
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2020-05-31 at 07:07 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairfish View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote.}
    Breaking down a subclass based on its abilities and what they do is not the way to determine if it is worth play is the wrong way to do things?

    I have very low tolerance for badly thought out game design.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2020-05-31 at 07:07 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Normally I'd just skip commentary when a post gets so long. So I apologize if I screw up any important parts of your manifesto. I'm trimming as much as I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    A monk also has no reason to not be using a weapon two handed if it is versatile because they can't use a shield and they can bonus action attack anyway so no reason to ever two weapon fight.
    Not kensei specific. Versatile weapons are good for any monk, even though they might not always use both hands on the weapon. They may be holding a light, a ranged weapon, or an enemy in their other hand. Two weapon fighting is an option just for a little more ranged damage, short ranged though it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Battleaxe/Longsword/Warhammer: Same weapon essentially, it is a 1d8 weapon with versatile 1d10. 1 damage higher but not throwable, kind of breaks even.
    You aren't losing the option to draw and throw a spear/trident/handaxe, at any time, or to start combat with the throwable weapons and switch to the martial weapon if you don't need to throw anything, so it's purely a benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Rapier/Scimitar/Shortsword: Only reason to pick these is you pick the parry feat or you are multiclassing into rogue.
    I like my waffles with butter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Whip: Gives reach, which can be nice.

    Ranged Weapons:
    The longbow is an obviously good choice. The sling allows bludgeoning damage at range. The hand crossbow if you want to be a crossbow expert.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    B. 3rd level Kensei ability:

    Melee: You now know how to use your new weapon in melee, so at most you gained 1 point of damage ...
    as well as not using PAM if you chose to take it.
    Show of hands: Who took Polearm Master for your monk? Sure, it gives you a reaction attack. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    However, for level 3 and 4 you only get one weapon attack and a bonus unarmed attack maybe 2 if you flurry. You can attack with your new weapon, or you can just stand there and hold it and use an unarmed strike like every other monk can do to gain +2 ac but now you have dropped from a 1d8 or maybe 1d10 damage to a 1d4 for that 2AC.
    At level 5+ you can make 2 weapon attacks and 1 or 2 unarmed, or you can make 1 weapon attack and 2 maybe 3 unarmed strikes to gain 2 AC.
    Turn to turn, you can choose either higher AC than any other monk or higher damage than any other monk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Ranged: this is key Read the specific wording of Flurry of Blows compared to Martial Arts. Flurry of Blows says:"Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action." It does not say it has to be a monk weapon. So you could shoot once, or twice if level 5+ then just spend a ki, walk over and unarmed attack twice with FoB.
    The first attack of flurry of blows is immediately after the attack action, so you can't attack, then walk over and flurry. You have to already be in range to flurry. That's going to make at least one of your ranged attacks a little difficult, most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    With monk's massive levels of mobility as is, it is already a great chance you can reach someone to unarmed attack, and would be almost impossible for you to not be in range for a bow attack.
    Is it worth it to give up 1 or maybe even 2 unarmed attack to do 1d4 extra damage with a bow shot? Maybe, but not very often.
    If you're in a position that you want to make unarmed attacks, then you probably want to just use one of your melee weapons. If you're using a ranged weapon, there's a high chance you don't want to get into melee, and so may appreciate an alternative way to deal more damage as a bonus action.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Another issue with archery based monks is ASI, Monks need a great Dex, a pretty good if not great Wis, and a good Con, but unlike classes like Fighter or Rogue, Monks don't get any bonus ASI, so you could easily get to level 16 before ever being able to take an archery based feat, also monks do not get a fighting style without multi classing. If I was going to make an archer monk, it would only be 3 levels of monk and the rest would be battle master.
    There is no issue here. Kensei makes archery an option, and if you want to focus on it, you don't have to have great wisdom to still get good AC for an archer. Monks multiclass well with battle master, but that's a benefit, not a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    C: Level 6 features:

    Your Kensei Weapon counts as magic for overcoming damage resistance. Cool. But how long before that becomes redundant by you just getting a magic weapon. That and any monk can still just unarmed attack for magic damage if the have to. It also depends on: A. how often your DM uses resistant monsters, B. how the magic item distribution is in the game, and C. Will what you attack with really be that much better than an unarmed strike in the first place, by now your unarmed strikes are 1d6, the most you are going to get out of a weapon is 1d10 and that is only 2 attacks a round, only 1 if you want the 2 ac, if you are at ranged, the most common magic item in the entire game is a +1 arrow, by now you should have enough around to shoot a bow against things you simply can't reach that are ALSO resistant to non-magic that it shouldn't matter.
    The party might have one or more magic weapons, but they might not have enough for everyone, they might not have every kind of magic weapon, and this is to give the Kensei parity with their unarmed strikes. It's exactly as important as the baseline monk ability. For C, yes, it will be that much better than an unarmed strike. +2 damage is the whole Dueling Fighting Style, or the weapon will have longer reach. And I guess I'll call it D, you will never have enough +1 arrows in the party for everyone who needs them to never have to worry about them. They're only 5% chance on the random tables they show up on, and a party would need several per round of combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    other ability is 1ki for a mini-smite. In the long run not a great as just using that same ki for some of your other abilities, but on a crit i can see it being used against some targets. Not too cost effective but pretty good.
    In the short run, it can be used on top of everything else the monk can already do. It's pretty cost effective if the enemy is tough to hit, or you have some reason to not use flurry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    D: Level 11 feature:

    Can spend 1/2/3 ki to give your Kensei weapon a + 1/2/3, not bad at all BUT, it does not stack with any other +s on the weapon already.
    If you have a +1 longsword, this ability is pointless unless you also carry a normal longsword you can pull to spend 3 ki to make it a +3.
    The most likely weapon you won't have at this level is a +x longbow, since nearly everybody could use one and they hardly show up randomly. If you have a +x whip, a +x longsword, a +x longbow, and a +x sling at level 11, good for you. The rest of us will probably find some times this is useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    E. Level 17 Feature:

    A free re-roll on a miss once a turn. Yes, that is some kind of nice.
    The subclass is fine. By virtue of having the options for the best melee damage, best ranged damage, and best AC among monks, it is the best monk subclass at martial combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    There is no need for that many Kensei weapon choices.

    Let them pick 1 weapon at level 3 and another at level 11.
    Their level 6 ability makes whatever weapon they picked a +1 weapon
    Level 11 makes it a +2, second weapon becomes +1
    Level 17 makes it a +3 , second weapon becomes +2

    Add in a clause of "as long as you have enough Ki points left in your pool = to the + you can have it is active" if you want.

    OR

    Let them pick unarmed strike as a Kensei weapon.

    I love the concept of the weapon master monk, they just really fouled it up.
    Speaking of badly thought out game design: In the first case, the character would have no ability to choose different weapons. It would either have the ranged weapon benefit or the melee weapon benefit for most of the game. I can list 5 weapons any kensei would benefit from mastering without going into specific feats or multiclasses: Longsword/Battleaxe, Warhammer, Whip, Longbow, Sling. They don't need that many choices, but they do need more than 1. Balancing the magic weapon bonuses around a cost means that getting a permanent magic weapon isn't totally redundant. It frees up resources for your other abilities to be used more. Giving the same bonus (option) to every weapon is just for convenience. Your suggestion reminds me of the awful scaling on Favored Enemy damage bonuses, where the one you pick at the start of the game could go up to +10 and the one you pick at the end just gets +2. This version is like the kensei, but even more boring and possibly less powerful.
    OR
    Just have every Kensei end up as a purely unarmed character because Unarmed Strike would always end up as the clear best melee option by level 17, if not earlier, and who cares about themes and identity in a subclass. Kensei can't pick unarmed strike because 1) That's not the point, and 2) That would overshadow almost every melee weapon. At least the whip has reach.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: How to Make a Bow-Kata Monk/Fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    I like my waffles with butter.
    I have no idea what that means for the record.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Turn to turn, you can choose either higher AC than any other monk or higher damage than any other monk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    The subclass is fine. By virtue of having the options for the best melee damage, best ranged damage, and best AC among monks, it is the best monk subclass at martial combat.
    I had not realized this when I posted it. Kensei is basically the most "martial" of the Monk subclasses? I thought that was the Way of the Open Hand?
    Note: I have not yet played a Monk in 5e so I've not put a great deal of research into the class. This would be pretty much my first attempt.
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-31 at 11:34 PM.
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