How much 2e can I import?

[Quertus]

So, there's things like Planar Shepherd that can pull in traits of other planes. Suppose a 3e character encountered another plane operating under a completely different paradigm - 2e being my goto example, but if Warhammer or Exalted or something give more interesting answers, feel free to use those instead.

So, just what all tools are available to facilitate this? What "rules of reality" could a PC (or RAW BBEG - no "story powers" allowed) import from such a divergent plane? What are some of the most fun tactical and strategic shenanigans someone could pull to sew confusion or give themselves the advantage?

[Telok]

Interesting. I'd have to check books, maybe the 1e deities & demigods could be interesting.

Off the top of my head from WHFRP there was a many armed daemon with 10 attacks and immunity to ranged effects. Just flat out immunity to anything that wasn't done to it in melee. Also any caster could use the WH casting system which could end up as a weird mix of warlock/truenamer casting wizard spells and occasionally getting wand of wonder/deck of many things side effects.

Oh, and 2e golems were magic immune. Real immunity.

[Quertus]

Interesting. I'd have to check books, maybe the 1e deities & demigods could be interesting.

Off the top of my head from WHFRP there was a many armed daemon with 10 attacks and immunity to ranged effects. Just flat out immunity to anything that wasn't done to it in melee. Also any caster could use the WH casting system which could end up as a weird mix of warlock/truenamer casting wizard spells and occasionally getting wand of wonder/deck of many things side effects.

Oh, and 2e golems were magic immune. Real immunity.

So, 2e has golems; 3e has golems. Presumably, they're the same thing. That is, if one from each edition is standing (or wading into battle) side by side, you shouldn't be able to tell which is which from their origin stories (whether that's "I was forged here" or "I was gated in" (or, for giggles, in FR, "I survived whichever death of Mystra precipitated the 2e->3e change")). They should be statistically identical.

Thus, the fun but would be pulling in the 2e laws of magic, to make 3e golems *actually* magic immune.

Are there tools to do that?

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A Warhammer Demon is… malice given form? This seems compatible with the D&D notion of outsiders, who aren't matter, but the stuff of the planes, "thought given form". So, if summoned to D&D, the Demon probably shouldn't simply fall apart with the lack of the Warp, as, "oh, you're an outsider" + the weave should suffice to sustain it.

Replacing 3e magic with "the warp" would be… mechanically taxing, and disastrous to unaware casters. They go to cast one of their spells (at full power, because they don't know any better), fail to hit the target number anyway (because they don't know to take a "focus action" or whatever), roll doubles/triples (or 9s, depending on system), and a demon eats their face.

So, is there any way to accomplish this in 3e?

[InvisibleBison]

It seems to me that you're asking how to create a hybrid between D&D and some other system. There aren't any rules about how to do that. I think you'd be better off asking this question in the Homebrew subforum.

[Quertus]

It seems to me that you're asking how to create a hybrid between D&D and some other system. There aren't any rules about how to do that. I think you'd be better off asking this question in the Homebrew subforum.

… no, definitely not homebrew. I'm asking to what extent, by RAW, one can import the traits of another plane - in this case, explicitly if that plane isn't just "the plane of fire", but something that doesn't follow D&D 3e at all!

I think "Planar Shepherd" is the most common "import planar traits" method, no? Well, what if there was a Planar Shepherd of 2e's Astral plane, or of the Warp? What could they do, by RAW?

But that's just me trying to ground things. More generally, a) what techniques are there to pull in traits from other planes; b) what traits do they let you pull in? Then, for giggles, c) OK, so what if that plane isn't from 3e, and d) what cool tricks could we pull this way?

[Telok]

Well it's pretty canon that all the published settings, arguably in all the editions, plus pretty much all homebrew settings, and d20 game settings, and RL Earth are just different prime material planes.

So you could have a Dark Sun plane intrusion where casting spells used the 2e Dark Sun rules for defiling and preserving. There could be a 1e od&d intrusion with it's small but finite chance a god shows up when a cleric invokes it's name, which depending could be a 1e, 3e, other e, version of said god. And yeah, in a 1 or 2e zone a golem would be actually immune to spells, but then a dragon would have a morale score and could be beaten into submission, and Haste/Slow would be super effective and dangerous.

How to get those alternate prime traits is going to have to be left for someone else with more book delving time.

[Quertus]

Well it's pretty canon that all the published settings, arguably in all the editions, plus pretty much all homebrew settings, and d20 game settings, and RL Earth are just different prime material planes.

So you could have a Dark Sun plane intrusion where casting spells used the 2e Dark Sun rules for defiling and preserving. There could be a 1e od&d intrusion with it's small but finite chance a god shows up when a cleric invokes it's name, which depending could be a 1e, 3e, other e, version of said god. And yeah, in a 1 or 2e zone a golem would be actually immune to spells, but then a dragon would have a morale score and could be beaten into submission, and Haste/Slow would be super effective and dangerous.

How to get those alternate prime traits is going to have to be left for someone else with more book delving time.

Well, sure, the Prime Material of each world/setting is on the Prime Material. But the Elemental Plane of Taffy for a given 2e world presumably isn't on the Prime Material. So, to be more precise, a Planar Shepherd of the Elemental Plane of Taffy (2e) - what could he do?

Is "morale score" one of the characteristics a Planar Shepherd could transplant?

Yes, changes to spells like Haste are huge between editions - it's actually the 3.0->3.5 changes to Haste that first got me wondering wether a Planar Shepherd (et alter) could change how certain effects actually worked.

[Zarrgon]

I'd guess a wish might be able to do this too.

In the Ye Old Days before 3E, D&D did have conversion rules. So if someone or something from another reality game rule system came to your D&D game they got converted to the D&D rules.

To keep another game systems rules in your current game system would just be a mess. Things would simply not add up. How would a 5E human warlock hit a 2E golem with an armor class of -3? Or worse if was a space prate with a dodge defense of 2d4? See, that all won't really work.

I doubt many players would like the "gottha" aspect here. Like when a 5E character does 25 points of damage to a foe and then the DM dances around and says "haha they take no damage as they have no hit points!".

[Calthropstu]

Truthfully? All of it.
It'll be a lot of work. But as long as your players are ok, you can import whatever you want. If you want to import Dragons flying helicopters in a space ship inside the death star, feel free. If you want to equip pikachu with a lightsaber and a magic wand, be my guest. If you want a daemon of slaanesh to be possessing a golem? Go for it. If it's your game, it's your rules.

[Nifft]

… no, definitely not homebrew. I'm asking to what extent, by RAW, one can import the traits of another plane - in this case, explicitly if that plane isn't just "the plane of fire", but something that doesn't follow D&D 3e at all!

If you're asking how to get cross-edition rules imported into your game, you are absolutely 100% doing homebrew.

That's fine. The published books are all perfectly serviceable as the foundation for your homebrew. There's no shame in brewing up a home.

But where you're trying to go is vehemently away from RAW.

[Quertus]

If you're asking how to get cross-edition rules imported into your game, you are absolutely 100% doing homebrew.

That's fine. The published books are all perfectly serviceable as the foundation for your homebrew. There's no shame in brewing up a home.

But where you're trying to go is vehemently away from RAW.

What I'm asking is, what does planar Shepherd, Planar Bubble, (etc) import?

Then I'm asking, OK, what if those are used on a plane that isn't 3e - does RAW have any interesting interactions there?

Nothing homebrew, just RAW.

[InvisibleBison]

What I'm asking is, what does planar Shepherd, Planar Bubble, (etc) import?

Then I'm asking, OK, what if those are used on a plane that isn't 3e - does RAW have any interesting interactions there?

Nothing homebrew, just RAW.

RAW, there are no planes that aren't 3e. If you're using 3e, you're using it everywhere. If you want to change that, you'll have to make up the rules yourself.

[Bronk]

What I'm asking is, what does planar Shepherd, Planar Bubble, (etc) import?

Then I'm asking, OK, what if those are used on a plane that isn't 3e - does RAW have any interesting interactions there?

Nothing homebrew, just RAW.

Well, the ability says that it mimics all traits of your chosen plane, including physical, energy, elemental, alignment, and magic traits.

So, you'd have to first have your DM (or be the DM) allow access to that alternate edition plane so you could choose it as you enter Planar Shepard. A bunch of levels later, you'd have your bubble.

It was interesting reading novels and so on during the edition shifts, because magic would sometimes work differently, or sometimes it would shut off and magic users would have to learn entirely different ways of functioning before being able to use any magic.

I think in a 2nd or 5th edition world, all spells would switch to their counterparts in those editions if they exist, or be unusable otherwise, while 4th edition would be a lot like a dead magic zone. Clerics might not be able to refresh any of their spells if their god doesn't have a presence there, or they could perhaps get some of their lower level spells like I think they could do in Spelljammer.

[Quertus]

RAW, there are no planes that aren't 3e. If you're using 3e, you're using it everywhere. If you want to change that, you'll have to make up the rules yourself.

Citation needed.

Well, the ability says that it mimics all traits of your chosen plane, including physical, energy, elemental, alignment, and magic traits.

OK…

So, you'd have to first have your DM (or be the DM) allow access to that alternate edition plane so you could choose it as you enter Planar Shepard.

Done (well, for 2e, not for anything weirder).

A bunch of levels later, you'd have your bubble.

OK. And it…?

It was interesting reading novels and so on during the edition shifts, because magic would sometimes work differently, or sometimes it would shut off and magic users would have to learn entirely different ways of functioning before being able to use any magic.

Numerous of my characters started in 2e. Most have either remained 2e, or been fortunate enough to experience the edition shift via world-hopping. But, yeah, living through an edition shift is a pain.

I think in a 2nd or 5th edition world, all spells would switch to their counterparts in those editions if they exist,

Makes sense.

or be unusable otherwise

Creating custom spells was a thing in 2e - how about 5e?

That said, yeah, that's a lot of work for the GM.

… actually, the spell level changed on some spells - I can see a 2e world / GM rejecting "mis-leveled spells".

So, numerous "ask your GM" items, but at least some clarity.

, while 4th edition would be a lot like a dead magic zone.

?

Clerics might not be able to refresh any of their spells if their god doesn't have a presence there, or they could perhaps get some of their lower level spells like I think they could do in Spelljammer.

2e, Clerics can refresh up to 2nd level spells "on their own", and deities were often "understanding" / temporary-conversion-friendly ("oh, you're a Cleric of war god X? Here's not here right now, but I'm war god Y. How about working for me while your here?")

I know nothing of 5e Clerics.

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I just had a horrifying thought - Planar Shepherd: Ravenloft?

[InvisibleBison]

Citation needed.

The rules for planes are laid out on pages 147 - 151 of the DMG. Nowhere in there does it say that you can have a plane that doesn't follow the 3e rules, therefore by RAW you can't.

[One Step Two]

If you get access to the planar traits of the Dragonlance Setting during the height of the War of Souls, Arcane spellcasters need to make DC 25+Spell Level Concentration checks to cast their spells, with a -10 Caster level penalty. See the Age of Mortals sourcebook from Sovereign Press for full details of the loss of Power During that era. Or even in the Main Dragonlance Core rules, it suggests the Curse of the Magi variant rule, which makes Wizards take a DC 10+Spell level Fort save when they cast, Failure means being Fatigued, then Exhausted on a second failed save, then Unconsiousness on the Third successive failure.

[RNightstalker]

To answer the OP: as much as you want.

To agree with a lot of the playground: it can work but it's going to be a balance issue really quick. There's a reason they came out with the conversion guide for 1st/2nd edition characters to transport into3.0. It's not apples to apples.

[Bronk]

OK. And it…?

Would take a while to kick in, is all.

Numerous of my characters started in 2e. Most have either remained 2e, or been fortunate enough to experience the edition shift via world-hopping. But, yeah, living through an edition shift is a pain.

At the beginning of the Avatar trilogy, there's some kind of rogue who's making bank by zipping around and attacking people while wearing an invisibility magic item. Normally, it would have turned off after an attack, but for him, it makes him invisible... while he's attacking? (It's been a while.) So even magic items might be affected.

Creating custom spells was a thing in 2e - how about 5e?

Sorry, no idea. I've only played 5E a few times, and as a monk.

?

The big deal about the switch to 4E and the Spell Plague was that all existing magic stopped working, and it took a long time to develop magic in the new way. I'm mostly getting this from the drizz't series. Even Elminster was skulking around for a century or whatever, stealing mostly useless but still powered magic items so his girlfriend could drain them to retain her sanity. (I can't remember if that one was in another series or not...)

I just had a horrifying thought - Planar Shepherd: Ravenloft?

Heh! I think if the DM okayed demiplanes as well as regular planes, anyone who wandered inside your bubble would definitely be stuck, and be yanked away by mists when the bubble effect ends! The Planar Shepherd wouldn't be affected, because they're protected from entrapping effects by their first level Planar Attunement power. Oh, but at 10th level Planar Self turns them into an outsider native to their plane... I don't think there are any, except maybe the Dark Powers... That's quite a step up!

[Quertus]

The rules for planes are laid out on pages 147 - 151 of the DMG. Nowhere in there does it say that you can have a plane that doesn't follow the 3e rules, therefore by RAW you can't.

That's not how logic works. If it says you can't, then, by RAW, you can't. If it doesn't say you can, then RAW is simply silent on the issue.

Curiously, it numbers exactly how many planes there are, yet future supplements added additional planes, with additional features. So RAW seems pretty clear to me that the established set of planes is not necessarily exhaustive, and 3e is actually open to addition, where planes are concerned.

If you get access to the planar traits of the Dragonlance Setting during the height of the War of Souls,

How long does that last? Planar shenanigans is one thing; temporal shenanigans are another.

Also, did the effects reach beyond the Prime Material?

Lastly, Dragon Lance is known to… not be a good place for World Walkers. So I'm leary of this plan.

The big deal about the switch to 4E and the Spell Plague was that all existing magic stopped working, and it took a long time to develop magic in the new way.

That sounds like the 2e->3e transition. So, "someone trained could do it; someone untrained could not", rather than "instant conversion of spells" would be your expectation, but no clear RAW either way?

I'm mostly getting this from the drizz't series. Even Elminster was skulking around for a century or whatever, stealing mostly useless but still powered magic items so his girlfriend could drain them to retain her sanity. (I can't remember if that one was in another series or not...)

I'd have to think that continuously breaking her *only* tenant ("As ye harm no Art, do as ye will.") would not a recipe for sanity make.

Heh! I think if the DM okayed demiplanes as well as regular planes

Oh, right, demiplane of dread. Never mind.

Still a horrific thought, just not a valid one.

[InvisibleBison]

That's not how logic works. If it says you can't, then, by RAW, you can't. If it doesn't say you can, then RAW is simply silent on the issue.

You've got it backwards. In D&D, you can't do something unless there's a rule saying that you can. After all, there's no rule saying that fighters can't cast fireball, just rules saying that wizards can, but no one would take this to mean that fighters can cast fireball, or that the rules are ambiguous on the question.

Curiously, it numbers exactly how many planes there are, yet future supplements added additional planes, with additional features. So RAW seems pretty clear to me that the established set of planes is not necessarily exhaustive, and 3e is actually open to addition, where planes are concerned.

And all of those additional planes use 3e rules. You're able to add a plane that doesn't, of course, but RAW there aren't any.

[One Step Two]

How long does that last? Planar shenanigans is one thing; temporal shenanigans are another.

Also, did the effects reach beyond the Prime Material?

Lastly, Dragon Lance is known to… not be a good place for World Walkers. So I'm leary of this plan.

Totally fair. The Curse of the Magi is a variant, but if in place is a constant in the setting/plane regardless of era. With that said though, the War of Souls lasts roughly 30 years, and has a scale of how difficult the spellcasting is, the height of which I mentioned above spans only 2 years, which in and of itself is not truly viable outside of a focused aggressive play in a set time.

If you do bring in older edition elements, could you bring in Spell Segment casting. Depending on your school of thought, it might affect the order of initiative of the caster and when the spell goes off adding more tactical motions to combat? This article highlights how this could be used.