Soul Disciple (Incarnum / Tome of Battle theurge PRC) + new soulmelds

[Elves]

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Next in the series of Tome of Battle theurge PRCs, we have...incarnum!

This is based on Pair O'Dice Lost's martial soul.


The Soul Disciple

New Tome of Battle Soulmelds

Some of the soulmeld abilities aren't filled in yet, ideas for them are welcome.

P.E.A.C.H.

[Elves]

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Questions:

- I was originally going to make the tutelary spirits grant a passive benefit (like extra essentia invested in maneuvers) which you could then choose to give up, by expending the spirit, for the more powerful on-use effects. Is that a better way of doing it?

- I was going to add this to the capstone ability, but cut it for brevity. Should it be added back?:

When you have a discipline soulmeld bound to the soul chakra, you can spend a full-round action to also bind it to another eligible chakra, temporarily overriding the chakra benefit of one other soulmeld you have chakra-bound. It takes another full-round action to deactivate this ability.

- What abilities should the nine soulmelds have so that they form a good ability suite for the class?

[Morphic tide]

A thing that seems to be a general structural issue is that there's no descriptor, tag, or other mechanical function that denotes things as Initiating related. The Nine Soulmelds feature says "Soulmelds in this book", which would indicate a lack of ability to expand in the future. Throwing a [Sublime] Descriptor on the relevant Soulmelds, Spells, Powers, Mysteries, feats, and so on, so they can be called out separately from other effects, particularly when you get into situations where you have enough Feat paths going on that you end up with a desperate need for some correction.

My main comment on the 'Melds in question is mostly that they seem to only allow a single Maneuver each. Perhaps have a single low-level Maneuver be part of Shaping it, while each Bind gives more in a different fashion. So one Bind might be a low-level Maneuver per Essentia, one might be giving several Maneuvers based on Initiator Level, one might give a Maneuver with a maximum level based on Essentia investment, having the details of the access differ makes them more distinct and could keep them dedicated to Initiating beyond the basic +E to the Discipline, which isn't particularly useful since you get just one Maneuver to use it on. Good target for Shape Soulmeld on a Swordsage, not a good Soulmeld for a Totemist to shape.

The Tutelary Spirit mechanic doesn't spell out their recovery, with the apparent intent being that you get a daily number based on how many of the Discipline Soulmelds you've Bound. If you're not going to do something with how many you have, such as it being a mechanic for "floating" Maneuvers Known so it has a meaningful selection of non-Warrior's Soul Maneuvers (in which case it could be much the same wording as the Animist's access mechanic, just so that mechanic isn't a one-off), then just say the feature has uses per day equal to how many of the Discipline Soulmelds you Bound at the start of it.

Given the nature of both subsystems as feat-entrance friendly, there's also the possibility of reducing the requirements to something more reachable by those means, such as mandating one Maneuver and a Stance from Warrior's Soul in particular, alongside breaking trends and asking for the ability to bind to some Chakra, possibly throwing in an 8-rank skill or a fitting Feat prerequisite (even if it means writing the feat to fit) to preserve the level restriction in the face of Totemist. And consequently having a listed-out Meldshaping progression, possibly adding Essentia for knowing Warrior's Soul Maneuvers like Sleeping Goddess does for Psionics for it to be a bit low, or end up with a total in line with the Incarnate from the Maneuvers also granting Essentia.

From what I recall of Warrior's Soul, since it's apparently missing from the directory you PM'd me and the main thread, doesn't it have its own innate capacity for Essentia investment? This means that Invest Maneuvers is enabling a frankly spectacular degree of dumping into one thing and causes a huge excess of things to spend Essentia on, and since Warrior's Soul Maneuvers cost Soulmeld slots they also make for complications by making it so this class has very little room to be a normal Meldshaper, as it's all eaten away by Initiating functions. I also recall a confusing mechanic where the Essentia is locked until you use the Maneuver, then it's immediately returned to the pool, causing an odd situation of wanting to have a "rotation" of Maneuvers as you free Essentia up with each one used rather than basically replacing your Boosts with re-investing your Essentia.

There's also my continued complaints about single-Discipline PRCs, as they force the character to become very narrow. As usual, Sublime Tapestry as a "deeper workings" option comes up, and in this case one might also include the ability to learn what may be accessed from the Soulmelds, leading to an odd access progression if they're given different limits. Or, as previously mentioned, bulk the "having Tutelary Spirits" into a mirror of the Animist's access mechanic for the Disciplines the Soulmelds grant, possibly have it wholly dependent on such and add a 'Meld for Warrior's Soul.

[Elves]

Re the Warrior's Soul maneuvers: the discipline is on the soulborn variant class page (link for others). Beware, it's a big mess.

The crux of the issue (with both Warrior's Soul and the soulborn variant) is that I haven't decided whether to make Warrior's Soul maneuvers

A) normal maneuvers that can simply have essentia invested in them

B) "martial soulmelds" that are bound and treated like soulmelds. Potentially the soulborn would get four new chakras (strike, rush, boost, and counter). Effectively, the soulborn would have access to all the Warrior's Soul maneuvers, but would choose each day which ones to shape.

In case B), this class wouldn't get Warrior's Soul maneuvers.

In case A), I wasn't intending essentia invested in Warrior's Soul maneuvers' essentia feature to stack with the Invest Maneuver class feature. But that might not be overpowered considering it's an alternative form of double-dipping that can't stack with Sublime Essence.

FWIW, both "Essence of the Master" and "Sublime Essence" were intended to alleviate essentia being spread too thin across maneuvers + soulmelds.


For now I've changed it so that Soul Disciple doesn't get Warrior's Soul maneuvers.

For the variant soulborn, I do like the idea of trying to make "martial soulmelds" work. But it may be too complicated.

[Just to Browse]

For now I've changed it so that Soul Disciple doesn't get Warrior's Soul maneuvers.

I think that this is the best solution for now. The two systems have pretty disparate resource management schemes, and mixing them together directly is going to create a lot of frustration. I much prefer your AOW soulmelds as a way to create some overlap without actually making players invest essentia into maneuvers or maneuver types.

Sacred Periapt: Heart looks very weak for a chakra bind at levels 17+. I would love to see Soul's effect moved to Heart, and have Soul (since it's essentially a capstone) become some ridiculously strong effect. Possibly revifify on death.

Ideas for soulmelds:

• Sirocco Robes (Shoulders): Air Walk at will while in a desert wind stance
• Crystal Circlet (Brow): DnD 5e style advantage on skill checks as part of maneuvers (I would also remove the +3 bonus on Concentration checks on the base soulmeld)
• Iron Heartward (Heart): I think this should be the IHS lite effect so players have a little more time to play with it. Not sure how to limit it, since unlike a maneuver this should be a reusable action. Maybe this just grants a maneuver-like ability to use iron heart surge once per encounter? That would let you double-stack the effect.

[Elves]

Sacred Periapt: Heart looks very weak for a chakra bind at levels 17+. I would love to see Soul's effect moved to Heart, and have Soul (since it's essentially a capstone) become some ridiculously strong effect. Possibly revifify on death.

revised it, gated revivify behind DS stance. may be too strong though -- these soulmelds' chakra effects should be weaker than normal because they also grant a maneuver.

[*]Crystal Circlet (Brow): DnD 5e style advantage on skill checks as part of maneuvers (I would also remove the +3 bonus on Concentration checks on the base soulmeld)

Added

[*]Iron Heartward (Heart): I think this should be the IHS lite effect so players have a little more time to play with it.[/list]

The heart bind obviously has to turn your heart to iron. It just sounds so stupid.

Edit:

Maybe this just grants a maneuver-like ability to use iron heart surge once per encounter? That would let you double-stack the effect.

Kept it as soul, but I think this is a good call because it also somewhat frees you to choose a maneuver other than IHS as your soulmeld granted maneuver.

[Morphic tide]

Re the Warrior's Soul maneuvers: the discipline is on the soulborn variant class page (link for others). Beware, it's a big mess.

The crux of the issue (with both Warrior's Soul and the soulborn variant) is that I haven't decided whether to make Warrior's Soul maneuvers

A) normal maneuvers that can simply have essentia invested in them

B) "martial soulmelds" that are bound and treated like soulmelds. Potentially the soulborn would get four new chakras (strike, rush, boost, and counter). Effectively, the soulborn would have access to all the Warrior's Soul maneuvers, but would choose each day which ones to shape.

In case B), this class wouldn't get Warrior's Soul maneuvers.

In case A), I wasn't intending essentia invested in Warrior's Soul maneuvers' essentia feature to stack with the Invest Maneuver class feature. But that might not be overpowered considering it's an alternative form of double-dipping that can't stack with Sublime Essence.

The issue I have is that the "transparency" effect is mandetory. If you're not an active Meldshaper, you cannot use Warrior's Soul, which is unlike any other Discipline. Sure, it's a sizable deal more expensive for anyone else to use the Mechanist's stuff because they have to pay more for the requirements, and Sleeping Goddess goes nuts when you have a proper Theurge set up. But Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers give you power points to fuel them to a basic level, and the requirement of Mechanist Maneuvers is having some equipment the Mechanist has an easier time getting.

"Martial Soulmelds" can just be Soulmelds that work alongside Initiating, or really even just a Descriptor marking them as something sufficiently important to Initiating builds for this class to have a considerable want for it, like throwing it on Incarnum Weapon retroactively to have it Meldshape the thing. If you have the Soulborn get Chakras for Maneuver types, then "Martial Soulmelds" can be regular Soulmelds that happen to have a Maneuver-like effect on those Chakras. Warrior's Soul keeping the Invest-when-Readied situation it has currently works perfectly well for using them as Maneuvers, and the ability to optionally Shape and Bind them as more typical Soulmelds to access them separately from Maneuvers Readied, or indeed Stance initiation, gives a much more prominent bonus for getting conventional Initiator levels than simply getting to stick larger numbers in.

With the Maneuver-typed Chakras and accessing effects by Shaping/Binding the Maneuvers as Soulmelds, there could be a lot more Stances than normal because you'd be able to get several of them active fairly early if you multiclass, and Binding them can give you more typical Maneuver effects. Having the "Martial Soulmeld" function you described just be part of the Soulborn variant, rather than mandated by the Discipline, would let it be used by more regular Initiators while still having the Soulborn do a daily Maneuver selection by Shaping them. Could actually keep its current Meldshaping progression and bulk up with a decent Maneuver access from Warrior's Soul and Divine Spirit. Either directly taking the Warblade progression, or using a reduced version of the Crusader's mechanic, drawing the Maneuvers from Devoted Spirit alongside Warrior's Soul.

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Some further thoughts on the Discipline-granting Soulmelds: Each of the Meldshapers already has bonuses to Attack rolls, so having them get an untyped bonus to the Maneuvers invites some serious issues, and having the maximum level of the Maneuver granted be based on Essentia in a Soulmeld causes a lot of problems because you can re-Invest as a Swift Action, which would change the Maneuver Known, which means using a Maneuver every single round. And referencing the Discipline Items for mechanics introduces another break because of the 24 hour attunement.

Keep to nine of them, but don't have them be all Nine of the originals. White Raven shouldn't be included because Meldshapers get a lot of passive bonuses that might cause the damage of the granted attacks and charges to inflate rather considerably, and a similar issue arises with Iron Heart getting weird with the stacking attack bonuses, alongside some issues from a flavor direction of a Soulmeld granting spectacular reality-bending skill. Stone Dragon and Shadow Hand have power source issues, in that accessing them via Soulmeld means Soulmelds are getting multi-planar properties and drawing from sources of power that aren't just Essentia. Desert Wind would be pressing far past the precedent of Meldshaping on blasting power, and the Boosts would be very very nasty to slap on Totemist.

Tiger Claw for Totemist is very obviously fitting, and its mass attacks are already limited in ways to keep it from going overboard. Totem Chakra could have a clause to treat Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes as manufactured weapons to paper over the possible wording issues with the multi-attack Boosts. Diamond Mind and Devoted Spirit work well within the context of existing Soulmeld flavor, as they generally operate on Insight bonuses and the Incarnate and Soulborn have Alignment interactions already. Setting Sun being mostly blunt force trauma is workable on Totemist as a source of some useful crowd control, and doesn't seem to plug in to the attack mass complications that have me worried about Desert Wind on a Soulmeld.

So that's five of the Nine I have issues with being on Soulmelds, with three of those being mechanical questions of a Totemist potentially going Very Nuts when exposed to them because they're not designed with a six-clawed behemoth getting a +6 Enhancement bonus to their attack rolls in mind. Warrior's Soul is the most obvious replacement, perhaps not mentioning any special carry-over and instead leaning on having +1 Essentia for "learning" the Maneuver to help cover the double-dipping cost. Twin Soul might work as a Soulborn exclusive, perhaps with a Chakra Bind to give a mount generation effect, and Wyrm's Might would fit in with the Dragon Magic Soulmelds and Totemist's general magical creature theme. Scarlet Bravura's risk structure and use of bonuses over action shenanigans could give it a place here where White Raven may cause complications.

Coin's Edge is highly debatable, but I recall there being a dice-based Soulmeld already, and Narrow Bridge could work from a "cycle of souls" angle, while Relentless Dusk could be a Necrocarnate offering. Cthonic Serpent could come as part of "Offensive Soulmelds" being bled into the standard pools, as its mechanics are so extremely narrowly focused on Trips, Grapples and other wrap-in-a-whip effects that having it come along for the ride with an Offensive Soulmeld that does such things isn't going to be very much of a stretch of "width".

[Elves]

Having the "Martial Soulmeld" function you described just be part of the Soulborn variant, rather than mandated by the Discipline

Ah, bingo. There's the answer. Reading rest of your new posts, will reply in a sec.

[Elves]

Alright, so yeah, I think you hit on the answer for the soulborn variant class and its martial soulmelds, which is great. This also opens the way for them to get a limited ability to "shape" maneuvers from other disciplines, with generic essentia investiture benefits (possibly copypasting Invest Maneuver from soul disciple).

I say limited because a) it shouldn't step on toes of animist and b) because custom-made essentia effects will feel better. Warrior's Soul should remain the centerpiece. Maybe no generic chakra bind maneuver benefits, so that only Warrior's Soul mvs can be chakrabound and hence will always have a central role.

While this will let non-meldshapers take Warrior's Soul maneuvers, I think there's nothing wrong with essentia investiture being core to that discipline's functionality [[outside of a maneuver or two intended to help another party member who's a meldshaper]]. Remember, 4 of the original 9 disciplines were made for one class only.

One obvious thing WS has to have is at least a couple maneuvers that can be bound to multiple maneuver chakras, changing maneuver type depending on which.

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As for adding different discipline soulmelds, having 9 for the original 9 is simple, thematic and fine IMO. Of course, yes, the abilities they grant can be changed. Eg, maybe more of their abilities should be about synergy with initiating.


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Some further thoughts on the Discipline-granting Soulmelds: Each of the Meldshapers already has bonuses to Attack rolls, so having them get an untyped bonus to the Maneuvers invites some serious issues

I know lawful incarnates have an attack bonus that scales up to +5 with incarnum radiance, what are the other bonuses you're talking about?

having the maximum level of the Maneuver granted be based on Essentia in a Soulmeld causes a lot of problems because you can re-Invest as a Swift Action

read again; it's based on max capacity, not essentia invested.

And referencing the Discipline Items for mechanics introduces another break because of the 24 hour attunement.

good catch, will clarify

White Raven shouldn't be included because Meldshapers get a lot of passive bonuses that might cause the damage of the granted attacks and charges to inflate rather considerably

is there a specific example you think is problematic?

mechanical questions of a Totemist potentially going Very Nuts when exposed to them because they're not designed with a six-clawed behemoth getting a +6 Enhancement bonus to their attack rolls in mind.

seems like this is primarily an issue with full-attack maneuvers that have per-attack effects. I don't see an easy fix except to remove the clause that all nine of the soulmelds get added to all your meldshaper classes, but that makes the class pretty boring for totemists.