Fireball vs Scorching Ray vs Melf's minute meteors

[Drache64]

I have seen quite a few reddit threads on this topic, and I just wanted to add a certain specificity to the discussion.

I am a blade singer wizard level 5 with 20 intelligence. So my go to level 3 spell is blink mixed with level 2 shadow blade (don't have to burn shield if I'm just not there). But looking at fireball, I think with my +8 to hit Scorching Ray is better bang for my buck. So far my DM hasn't thrown any large clusters of opponents at us, at least not where my party wasn't already engaged. I like that SR gives me flexibility in my damage (all on one or split them up).

At level 5 I think I'm better off choosing blink (no contest with my class) and probably Melf's minute meteors for a save or half dmg spell for things I just can't hit. The only time I use my spell slots to not become a close combat fiend, is when the enemy is too far, or I just want to shake stuff up and stand in the back. The meteors let me do 4d6+2d10 every round (BA spell + fire bolt) for roughly 3 rounds. And my concentration checks are +7 with advantage so I'm not dropping concentration usually ever. (I have to take 32 DMG to have a 50% chance of dropping a spell and that's still made at advantage, not to mention that's enough Damage to 1 shot me anyways).

I know it's circumstantial for everyone, but with my situation and class, what do you think?

Note: fireball is still on my shopping list to pick up in town and add to my spell book, but just won't be one of the 4 guaranteed level 3 spells I add for free.

[OldTrees1]

In your circumstances, the more precise Scorching Ray / Melf's Minute Meteors fits your use case better.

Unless your party has a Paladin of the Ancients. If that is the case then occasionally start fireballing the Paladin when they hit 7th level. Giving every ally +5 on Saves and Resistance against spells damage means your party usually only takes 1/4th. That really changes the math.

[Joe the Rat]

I agree, though one thing to consider are bunker enemies (High AC, low Dex). Not necessarily Fireball, but make sure you have 1-2 good save-based ranged or AoE spells available. At a +8, it's going to be rare to find something with a better than 50% miss chance, but it's always good to be prepared.

[CheddarChampion]

For single targets, Scorching Ray is at least as good as fireball. 8d6 but AC is usually easier to hit, crits are possible.

Minute Meteors takes your action to summon the Meteors and your bonus action to shoot them. Turn 1 will be 4d6 damage in a 10'x10' area, turns 2 and 3 will be that plus a 2d10 firebolt. In practice, a meteor will hit two adjacent targets in good circumstances.

Fireball is 8d6 immediately in a 20' radius sphere. That's 40' from one end to another. If you can get even 3 targets in the zone it'll be 24d6 damage dealt. That's 3x the damage of a SR and 2x the damage of a single target MMM over 3 rounds. (You can still firebolt during the next two rounds so MMM doesn't really have an advantage there.)

In my eyes, MMM is best for tanky bosses or creatures with evasion, Fireball is best for everything else.

[Drache64]

For single targets, Scorching Ray is at least as good as fireball. 8d6 but AC is usually easier to hit, crits are possible.

Minute Meteors takes your action to summon the Meteors and your bonus action to shoot them. Turn 1 will be 4d6 damage in a 10'x10' area, turns 2 and 3 will be that plus a 2d10 firebolt. In practice, a meteor will hit two adjacent targets in good circumstances.

Fireball is 8d6 immediately in a 20' radius sphere. That's 40' from one end to another. If you can get even 3 targets in the zone it'll be 24d6 damage dealt. That's 3x the damage of a SR and 2x the damage of a single target MMM over 3 rounds. (You can still firebolt during the next two rounds so MMM doesn't really have an advantage there.)

In my eyes, MMM is best for tanky bosses or creatures with evasion, Fireball is best for everything else.

I also like that MMM takes a few turns to deal all the damage, but as a BA (since I'm not a sorc I usually don't use a bonus action). The reason being is that it seems less to the party like the wizard is trying to kill everything before they can have any fun.

I agree, though one thing to consider are bunker enemies (High AC, low Dex). Not necessarily Fireball, but make sure you have 1-2 good save-based ranged or AoE spells available. At a +8, it's going to be rare to find something with a better than 50% miss chance, but it's always good to be prepared.

Yes, right now I don't have any spells that are save based, that's another reason why I'm thinking of getting MMM because it's 1/2 DMG on save.

[CheddarChampion]

The reason being is that it seems less to the party like the wizard is trying to kill everything before they can have any fun.

That's fair.

[Joe the Rat]

Yes, right now I don't have any spells that are save based, that's another reason why I'm thinking of getting MMM because it's 1/2 DMG on save.

Totally blanked on the save side. Let me check my notes.

Something else to consider is Melf is a concentration spell - You'll need to use this up before / instead of engaging Blink.

[Drache64]

I agree, though one thing to consider are bunker enemies (High AC, low Dex). Not necessarily Fireball, but make sure you have 1-2 good save-based ranged or AoE spells available. At a +8, it's going to be rare to find something with a better than 50% miss chance, but it's always good to be prepared.

Totally blanked on the save side. Let me check my notes.

Something else to consider is Melf is a concentration spell - You'll need to use this up before / instead of engaging Blink.

Amazingly, blink isn't concentration. And as far as getting hit, I do have +7 concentration check with advantage (blade singer + warcaster).

But my go-to Shadow Blade would have to wait until after the meteors are all gone, but really it's turn 1 "oh no there's a combat!" BA start blade song, action summon meteors and launch 2, turn 2 two more meteors, turn 3 last meteors, now that my tanks and healers have their setups going and probably have melee opponents engaged and focused on them I'm free to jump into CC and start carving things up.

[ImproperJustice]

What I love most about Melf’s is how easy it is to aim.
The smaller explosions are a good thing sometimes meaning you can more readily target opponents without nailing allies or you can better handle enemies coming from multiple directions.

But my play style is that I generally prefer usability / versatility over raw power any day.


Also, Blink is straight up incredible. Used it with a Wild Sorc caught in an ambush once, and it really saved his bacon. It’s pretty cool on an EK as well.

[Joe the Rat]

Amazingly, blink isn't concentration. And as far as getting hit, I do have +7 concentration check with advantage (blade singer + warcaster).

But my go-to Shadow Blade would have to wait until after the meteors are all gone, but really it's turn 1 "oh no there's a combat!" BA start blade song, action summon meteors and launch 2, turn 2 two more meteors, turn 3 last meteors, now that my tanks and healers have their setups going and probably have melee opponents engaged and focused on them I'm free to jump into CC and start carving things up.

I'm 0/2 on memory today. I would have sworn blink was concentration.
Go with the Meteors.

[Foxhound438]

I would typically err towards fireball. No concentration like MMM, hitting multiple enemies with it is better than scorching ray, the only downside is in fact killing your own party. But smart timing and planning can help that a lot.

Bonus fact, the wording on melf's minute meteors is just shaky enough that you could interpret it to mean that you can send 4 on the first turn - 2 as you cast it, and 2 as your bonus action. I know, it says "thereafter", but there's not like a 5e legal thesaurus to say that doesn't include the portion of your turn between after the action and before ending the turn. It lets you do fireball damage on the first turn, just at a smaller area with the extra 2 for later.

[Drache64]

I would typically err towards fireball. No concentration like MMM, hitting multiple enemies with it is better than scorching ray, the only downside is in fact killing your own party. But smart timing and planning can help that a lot.

Bonus fact, the wording on melf's minute meteors is just shaky enough that you could interpret it to mean that you can send 4 on the first turn - 2 as you cast it, and 2 as your bonus action. I know, it says "thereafter", but there's not like a 5e legal thesaurus to say that doesn't include the portion of your turn between after the action and before ending the turn. It lets you do fireball damage on the first turn, just at a smaller area with the extra 2 for later.

Concentration checks are practically non-existent for my character. Your wording on the spell seems absolutely correct to me. Hmm that makes it even more intriguing!

Ultimately I think I'm going to just keep scorching Ray and for my level 5 picks I'm going with blink and perhaps counterspell. I'll pick up fireball in a shop sometime along with the meteors. My blade singer is typically a close combat expert anyways.