Sorceror 1-3 / Paladin X Is this a good build?

[Innate]

I've read a lot of the sorcerer/paladin guides but they almost all refer to taking 2 or 6 levels in paladin and then the rest in sorcerer. However, I'd rather play mainly paladin and I'd like to know whether there is a benefit to taking either 1 or 3 levels in sorcerer as opposed to just playing fully as a paladin.

At third level I'd lose the following for paladin (capstone, one ADI, 2nd and 5th level spell slot, increasing auras to 30' and 15hp's for lay on hands). If the trade off for a few sorcerer levels may be worth it (assuming that I won't likely play to 20th level or that close to it), would 1, 2 or 3 levels be best for sorcerer on this build? Thanks in advance - this message board is a fantastic resource.

PS: does anyone have experience in sorcerer dips for paladin compared to warlock dips (for the same 1-3 level range) in terms of what they thought provided more benefit (I realize that has a lot to do with which style of play one prefers but any general comments would be appreciated).

[Garfunion]

What kind of themed character are you trying to create? You shouldn’t multi class unless you’re trying to create a theme around it

[Mr A25]

In my personal opinion, Sorcerer dip doesn't offer much to Paladin. If you want to go more Paladin with some Sorcerer then I'd say that Paladin 11 is your last good breakpoint (or 12 for that ASI). But that takes you to near endgame and who knows if the campaign will run that long.

Warlock on the other hand is actually a very good slight dip if a tad cheesy with 1-3 Hexblade giving a whole lot of goodies.

However straight Paladin is an excellent class and one of the most powerful in 5e. Its an exceptionally fun class to play single classed in my opinion.

[1Pirate]

Divine soul sorc is a reasonable 1-level dip. You can pick up Guidance for utility, one(or more) ranged cantrips of your choice, Minor Illusion, and something fun like Prestidigetation or Thaumaturgy. You can pick up Shield and Absorb Elements for a little more tank plus Favored of the Gods.

Generally I wouldn't say it's better than the capstone, but from experience you'll be playing with your sorc goodies longer than you'll playing with your capstone(the few instances where it might be better is if you're Oath of Vengeance and you've picked up some other viable means of flight, such as a Protector Aasimar's racial, Winged Boots, or Mounted Combatant+Find Greater Steed).

[Dr. Cliché]

Is there a reason you're considering Sorcerer as a dip in the first place, as opposed to say Warlock or Bard?

[CTurbo]

I've read a lot of the sorcerer/paladin guides but they almost all refer to taking 2 or 6 levels in paladin and then the rest in sorcerer. However, I'd rather play mainly paladin and I'd like to know whether there is a benefit to taking either 1 or 3 levels in sorcerer as opposed to just playing fully as a paladin.

At third level I'd lose the following for paladin (capstone, one ADI, 2nd and 5th level spell slot, increasing auras to 30' and 15hp's for lay on hands). If the trade off for a few sorcerer levels may be worth it (assuming that I won't likely play to 20th level or that close to it), would 1, 2 or 3 levels be best for sorcerer on this build? Thanks in advance - this message board is a fantastic resource.

PS: does anyone have experience in sorcerer dips for paladin compared to warlock dips (for the same 1-3 level range) in terms of what they thought provided more benefit (I realize that has a lot to do with which style of play one prefers but any general comments would be appreciated).

The capstone, 5th level slot, and increasing the auras to 30ft are FAR stronger than ANY 3 level dip IMO. A solo class Paladin is always going to be stronger at any level.

As mentioned above, if you don't have a good STORY reason to dip Sorcerer, I wouldn't do it.

[Eldariel]

Generally the big draw of the full casters are the high level spells and slots. Generally the higher the level, the more bogus the spells get capping at "Do literally anything" as 9th level spells.

Outside of few exceptionally dippable levels (especially Cleric 1 but also Bard 3, Cleric 2, Warlock 1-3 and kinda-sorta Wizard 2 and Druid 1), you thus generally want as many levels as possible in your full casting class to get as many high level slots and spells as possible. Therefore non-full casters are pretty much always better off as dips in caster builds than vice versa, giving you the specific class features you want. As a rule, non-caster class features lack steady progression (aside from rather trivial ones like Sneak Attack) enabling you to pick up the things you want and then go back to well-scaling class features (i.e. spells).

[Jcp1195]

Unless you have a backstory hook to explain why you're multiclassing, or say your character has been learning about a class from another character or NPC, you generally should avoid multiclassing. Sorcerer is especially hard to do, given it's not really something you can just learn. Any Aasimar could logically become a Divine Soul, any Dragonborn could be a Dragon Sorcerer, Water and Air Genasi could be Sea or Storm, Fire could Pyromancy or Phoenix, Earth Genasi could be Stone, Goliaths could be Giant, etc, etc. Unless you have a concise reason why this character should or even could become a sorcerer, it's best to avoid that type of multiclassing, similarly to how it's really not that easy to find a patron who won't kill you, or who thinks you're even worth giving you a fraction of their power. You would also have to make sure your sorcerous bloodline or Patron doesn't clash with you're divine oath, as some of them could very easily cause you to become Oathbroken.

Not to mention, strictly speaking on power level, going 20 levels Paladin is far more worthwhile than muliclassing anyway. The Paladin is one of the few classes in my honest opinion that has a worthwhile capstone (the others being Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, sometimes Fighter, and Warlock). Since you already did the work of putting what you're losing from Paladin I won't go too in depth on that, but also keep in mind that going from Paladin to Sorcerer for those three levels, you're also giving up an average of 2-4 HP per level since you're going from a D10 to a D6 hit dice. This would be mitigated a bit by Dragon Sorcerer, but only if you can justify being that sorcerer. Otherwise, giving up your Capstone, Aura increase, and a Feat/ABI, you're only getting 4 new spells, 4 cantrips, 3 sorcery points, two metamagics (Most of which have a cost of 2+ sorcery points) and the means to swap your spells for Sorcery points. If you're a paladin though, 9/10 times you'd want to smiting rather than giving up smite spell slots to use more metamagics. You'd gain some spells you couldn't learn otherwise, and that would give you some added utility, but you'd only be learning 1st and 2nd level spells.

All in all, a Paladin taking a few levels of Sorcerer is more or less just an inferior Paladin. That said, that's not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to decide if the inferior bonuses you're gaining in exchange of your otherwise most powerful abilities is worthwhile. If it is, then go for it.

TLDR: If you have a lore or Roleplaying reason to Multiclass, go ahead. Power-wise, don't do it.

[Innate]

I suppose I'm a bit strange this way, but I prefer to pick my characters based on what I feel is an optimum build, and then I build a back story around the character after the fact. I don't think it hurts game play very much since the DM can address any balance issues during the game. Much of the value I find in the game is not so much how strong my character is but how well he (or she) can creatively solve problems. That said, having an optimal build and thinking through how best to maximize my character's abilities is always a high priority for me.

The four classes that I enjoy the most are bladesinger, EK, monk and paladin, but I enjoy working out 1 or 2 level dips if I can determine that it makes the character more effective in how I choose to play him or her.

[Innate]

Generally the big draw of the full casters are the high level spells and slots. Generally the higher the level, the more bogus the spells get capping at "Do literally anything" as 9th level spells.

Outside of few exceptionally dippable levels (especially Cleric 1 but also Bard 3, Cleric 2, Warlock 1-3 and kinda-sorta Wizard 2 and Druid 1), you thus generally want as many levels as possible in your full casting class to get as many high level slots and spells as possible. Therefore non-full casters are pretty much always better off as dips in caster builds than vice versa, giving you the specific class features you want. As a rule, non-caster class features lack steady progression (aside from rather trivial ones like Sneak Attack) enabling you to pick up the things you want and then go back to well-scaling class features (i.e. spells).

In this case, would you consider a 1, 2 or 3 level dip in sorcerer for your primary paladin character, or do you see that providing a less optimum build?

[1Pirate]

In this case, would you consider a 1, 2 or 3 level dip in sorcerer for your primary paladin character, or do you see that providing a less optimum build?

What's your Oath?

[Eldariel]

In this case, would you consider a 1, 2 or 3 level dip in sorcerer for your primary paladin character, or do you see that providing a less optimum build?

I don't think 1st-2rd level spells and the marginal increase in spell slots are generally worth losing out on the potent high end Paladin features. However, 1 level is feasible as mentioned earlier: Divine Soul gives you some real good Cantrips that vastly increase the at-will versatility of your character (say, Guidance, Minor Illusion, Booming Blade, Toll the Dead [solid options include Mold Earth and Shape Water too]). 3 does get you metamagic, if at only 3 uses per long rest. 3 twinned Booming Blades is still a reasonable boost on higher levels. So it's not entirely without merit (and you can burn your spell slots for extra sorcery points of course).

Divine Soul giving Favored by the Gods is also not bad. 2d4 is substantial and enables you to hit one attack or succeed one save that would've normally failed a fair amount of time. OTOH, 3 levels in Shadow Sorcerer would allow you to **** around with the Darkness nonsense, which can be fairly strong too. 1 level gives you 120' darkvision, which can be quite useful on characters without it.


I'd say it's always arguable whether it's worth it and it depends on the level you look at:
- Starting Sorc gives you Con saves instead of Wis saves, which can be nice Concentration-wise (but level 6 Pally gives you Cha to all saves anyways)
- Delaying Smite, Aura of Protection, and Improved Divine Spite as well as Find Steed/Greater can be kinda painful
- 30' auras are really good. This would be my biggest gripe with multiclassing for metamagic; your positioning is so much more free if you get the 18th level feature (assuming you go to 20). Doubly so if you're an Ancients Paladin.
- Capstone abilities are pretty good too but come pretty late. The big advantage of dipping is that you get the good stuff (in this case, Twinned Booming Blade seems like the primary draw) earlier.

Overall, I'd say Sorc 1/Paladin 19 and Sorc 3/Paladin 17 are viable but with different foci than the stock Pally. Sorc 3/Pally 17 is qualitatively different focused more on Twin Booming Blade smiting enemies (facilitating the use of spell slots to fuel said activity instead of straight-up smiting with them), while Sorc 1/Pally 19 is generally a Pally with one utility ability and a bunch of handy cantrips giving versatility but delaying the big Paladin class features. Starting Sorc over Pally seems quite reasonable for the Con save proficiency: you don't necessarily need Res: Wis either thanks to Aura of Protection.

Whether Pally 20 is stronger than either depends a lot on the levels of focus, the archetype chosen, etc. but I'd say they aren't at least in any way significantly worse even if the greater fruits of Sorcererhood remain ungained and both spell progressions are somewhat stunted.

[Taebyn]

I’ve been thinking about a sorc dip on my pally but ultimately a level in hexblade offered more. You just don’t have enough sorcery points or high level spells with a sorc dip imo.

[Innate]

@Eldariel - what an outstanding and detailed reply - thank for that.

@Taebyn - I hadn't considered a Warlock dip but I'll look into that. What level do you recommend for the dip, 1, 2 or 3 levels?

[Skylivedk]

Warlock 1-5 is all very very viable.

1: SAD, ranged cantrip, 1 SR slot, Shield, Hexblade's Curse [IMO stupid strong dip]
2: 2 SR slots, invocations
3: pact boons. Necessary for GWM SADness, but also great for utility and tank dips (from tome and chain respectively)
4: ASI
5: Eldritch Smite, 2 X tier 2 SR slots.


The best choice often depends on your party composition, your chosen role, tactical acumen (both yours and team players'), expected level play range and oath (ie I find Vengeance+Hexblade to have a clunky action economy). The level 1 dip is too strong to ignore of you are talking strictly power IMX.

The Sorcerer dip can honestly make sense of you're veering towards being a tank. Shield, Absorb Elements, Shadow/Divine Soul feature and booming blade+warcaster are all good on tanks. Distant/subtle is extra valuable on Redemption Paladins (because of the interactions with counterspell) and quicken and twin has a wide range of options

[ImproperJustice]

What kind of themed character are you trying to create? You shouldn’t multi class unless you’re trying to create a theme around it

Don’t listen to this person!
D&D is a tactical combat game, and good characters are the ones that kill things the best. So optimize for damage and defense. Exploration is ok, but honestly, the GM isn’t going to abandon hours of prep work just because you can’t find the right door to kick in.

I recommend a Google Search for the nameless king. His posts on various forums are easily found as he prefers to post them in all caps to better highlight their awesomeness :)
Follow his advice to win D&D.


Seriously though, most people go Paladin 5 for two attacks, and Sorc the rest of the way for smites and fireballs.

[Taebyn]

@

@Taebyn - I hadn't considered a Warlock dip but I'll look into that. What level do you recommend for the dip, 1, 2 or 3 levels?

I’d go one personally as you get most of the benefit in the first level of hexblade. You could go two for invocations if you want charisma damage on Eldritch blast or other invocations. For me one made sense, because I could do it once finding a weapon to bind to. So it was thematic for the dip. That’s personal bias and it could happen at any time. Glhf

[Fryy]

I suppose I'm a bit strange this way, but I prefer to pick my characters based on what I feel is an optimum build, and then I build a back story around the character after the fact. I don't think it hurts game play very much since the DM can address any balance issues during the game. Much of the value I find in the game is not so much how strong my character is but how well he (or she) can creatively solve problems. That said, having an optimal build and thinking through how best to maximize my character's abilities is always a high priority for me.

The four classes that I enjoy the most are bladesinger, EK, monk and paladin, but I enjoy working out 1 or 2 level dips if I can determine that it makes the character more effective in how I choose to play him or her.

I think that is a perfectly valid approach... find/pick a 'mechanic' that you would like to play... and then build a story (personality or background) around it using your own personal creative process.

You asked specifically for an 'optimal build' (and not theme ideas) so here are some recommendations:
(1) Armor Proficiency - For Paladin/Sorcerer I would always take the first level in Paladin. If not, you don't get heavy armor proficiency ever (unless you multi-class into something else like Tempest Cleric, etc.). I would always want the option to use heavy armor if the opportunity presented itself. Furthermore, I think proficiency in both Con and Wis is always good... in which case it's fine to start with Wis proficiency and get Con proficiency later rather than in reverse.
(2) Sorcerer - If you are thinking of a maximum of 1-to-3 levels in Sorcerer, then I recommend only 1 level. The key low level Sorcerer spells I miss are Shield, Absorb Elements, and Healing Word (Divine Soul only). I wish Lay On Hands was a bonus action. It's not and that is why I miss Healing Word on a full Paladin. I think having only 3 metamagic points per long rest is just too few to satisfy the appetite. I would find it disappointing personally, but it's your call.

[Grod_The_Giant]

@Taebyn - I hadn't considered a Warlock dip but I'll look into that. What level do you recommend for the dip, 1, 2 or 3 levels?

Warlock 2 is the classic option. That gets you the best ranged attack in the game (Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast), a spare invocation for something fun like Misty Visions, two short rest spell slots, and the Hexblade patron (which is, as always, overpowered as hell-- their curse is strong and scales well, and they give you access to Shield, and they give you Cha-to-attack).

Warlock 3 gets you second level spell slots and a pact boon, but I wouldn't really consider it worth it.

[Garfunion]

Don’t listen to this person!
D&D is a tactical combat game, and good characters are the ones that kill things the best. So optimize for damage and defense. Exploration is ok, but honestly, the GM isn’t going to abandon hours of prep work just because you can’t find the right door to kick in.

I recommend a Google Search for the nameless king. His posts on various forums are easily found as he prefers to post them in all caps to better highlight their awesomeness :)
Follow his advice to win D&D.


Seriously though, most people go Paladin 5 for two attacks, and Sorc the rest of the way for smites and fireballs.

WoW, that hurts my feelings.
You mean I shouldn’t choose a roleplaying theme in a roleplaying game. :(

[paladinn]

The conventional wisdom is that it's Never good or optimal to multiclass. Fortunately I've seldom agreed with the conventional wisdom:)

One of my favorite characters has been a sorlocadin. Started vengeance paladin, 3 levels of hexblade, a few more paladin, then all the rest divine soul. Good front-liner, great nova damage, decent ranged damage, decent healing when needed, and all Cha-SAD. I'm sure it wasn't anything close to "optimized" by some standards, but it was soo much fun!

[Mr Adventurer]

Sorcerer is especially hard to do, given it's not really something you can just learn.

Sorcerer is literally the easiest class to justify, not the hardest. It's an innate talent that blooms later than in some others.

[Keravath]

You can justify any dip via roleplaying. Sorcerer or warlock can work.

Two levels of Celestial warlock could be very thematic for a devotion paladin. Two levels of fey warlock for an ancients paladin. Two levels of hexblade or fiend could work for vengeance though you can mix and match any warlock with a paladin.

The big gain is 2 invocations (one of which is agonizing blast), two short rest level 1 slots that can be used for spells or smites, plus some extra abilities that can be thematic.

Hexblade can allow you to use charisma to hit. However, it is only ONE weapon and it must be one handed and not heavy. You bond to it after a long rest and the ability won't work with any other weapon so if that one is lost or taken away you will be working with strength or dex until you get a replacement. You need 3 levels of warlock and blade pact to give the flexibility of weapon choice use with charisma and that is a pretty big investment.

The level 18, 30' aura ability could arguably be treated as the paladin capstone. From a party perspective it is a great ability.

So the "classic" multiclass dip for a paladin is typically two levels of warlock.

Sorcerer doesn't give as much for two levels - four cantrips so you can pick up some sub-standard ranged damage options, a few more spell slots, a few more spells. Meta magic takes 3 levels but it does allow you to quicken a spell on the first round of combat and still make your attacks. Depending on spells that might be worthwhile.

[Aurosman]

I am currently playing a Sorcerer 1\Paladin 3 character right now. A Verdan that is trying to control some of the residual chaotic magic that created him.

Chose wild magic for my Sorcerer origin and my DM is letting me roll for magic surges on my smites as well as spell casting.

So far I am loving it.

It may not be the most optimized but it really fun to play. My plan is going the rest in Paladin. Sure I don't get the capstone ability, but I get alot more fun along the way.

The only thing that I am a little upset about is the lack of heavy armor since I started Sorcerer, but that will change with a feat at level 9.

[Honk]

Tried to read all above but got bored 🥳
Right now I’m playing a Oath of Conquest 8/ Divine Sorcerer 2 Fallen Aasimar... going for a „wall of fear“ + „unlimited bladeworks“ hybrid, found around here. Lvl 7 pala brings the nice aura, went to lvl 8 for asi, sorcerer comes next.

It’s a blast, of course all was pre-checked with my DM not to raise his ire (rock falls everyone dies).
Thinking about going Sorc lvl 3+ to get metamagic (hasten hold person and max smiting ). The MC is very tricky to decide what to take from the candy store.

Very sturdy char, with shield spell, shield and plate, defensiv fighting he reaches AC 28 when going against frightened opponents (Oath, wrathful smite spell) they get disadvantage, which leads to my char to start laughing maniacally and punching them in the face. He is a crazy Toolbox, with a bunch of utility spells for every occasion (command, wrathful smite, shield, slots to smite, feather fall).

Not totally min-maxed at lvl20, but if the 30ft aura really is worth it, especially against the opponents at lvl18.

Can recommend this hybrid-built totally, lots of fluff opportunities for rpg and mighty crunch to kick evil in the face.

[ImproperJustice]

WoW, that hurts my feelings.
You mean I shouldn’t choose a roleplaying theme in a roleplaying game. :(

Not if you want to win D&D by doing the maximum amount of damage at all times, you don’t!

Roleplaying is for losers who like “social interaction”, and “creative storytelling”, and “mutually enjoyable experiences with others”.

[Toadkiller]

Another thing to consider is the magic initiate feat. It can get you a couple of cantrips and a spell out of the gate if you go variant human. Could make a paladin seem “more magic” at least at low levels. And honestly a ranged cantrip can always add options to a primarily melee character.

A bard in a game I run did MI sorcerer and the boost has stayed relevant at least to the mid levels we have reached.

But don’t fret all the optimization stuff. It’s just a game and 5e allows options fairly easily.

[Innate]

Thanks for all of the great advise. I think I've decided on Paladin 6 with the rest in Divine Soul Sorcerer. I'm not convinced this is an optimized build, but I think it will be fun to play.