Dungeons and Dragons (2022)

[The Glyphstone]

I can't see the logical leap between 'multiracial fantasy communities' and 'total genre kitchen sink blender' either, but maybe I missed something upthread.

[Lord Raziere]

Imagine a city full of all the intelligent monsters found in all the Monster Manuals, imagine orcs rubbing shoulders with beholders, medusa, giants and dragons of different sorts, and try to imagine how that's going to work? Will pixies show up at the bar with storm Giants and Dragons? There never was a city like this, and frankly it's hard to imagine how these creatures would deal with each other and get along.

I got a city setting for that, been working on it, I should get around to posting up Silverline to show people how I'm doing it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Imagine a city full of all the intelligent monsters found in all the Monster Manuals, imagine orcs rubbing shoulders with beholders, medusa, giants and dragons of different sorts, and try to imagine how that's going to work? Will pixies show up at the bar with storm Giants and Dragons? There never was a city like this, and frankly it's hard to imagine how these creatures would deal with each other and get along.

I take it you've never watched Zootopia? Because they did pretty much exactly this in the movie with pretty much every land mammal in the encyclopedia.

[Kitten Champion]

It's also the premise for Droaam in the Eberron setting.

Oh, and the recent Disney movie Onward is the modern world but with fantasy races like Ogres, Elves, and Manticores in place of humans. Which, incidentally, is highly influenced by D&D.

[Anonymouswizard]

Do you want a guy in a leather jacket and wearing a pair of sunglasses swinging a sword? How about a monk sporting a spikey mohawk? How about a wizard in a jumpsuit of a fighter in a bikini with breastplate, do you want those tropes?

The first three, yes but I've already established that I want an Eberron film. As for the third, I don't care about her knickers as long as she's wearing clothes over them

In all seriousness, mixing in modern elements isn't s problem if you a) don't go overboard, b) pick something that blends with the setting, and c) don't draw attention to it. And in a dungeonpunk seeing the line for overboard is quite far.

[Kantaki]

Do you want a guy in a leather jacket and wearing a pair of sunglasses swinging a sword? How about a monk sporting a spikey mohawk? How about a wizard in a jumpsuit of a fighter in a bikini with breastplate, do you want those tropes?

The image of Roy Greenhilt in a bikini aside that doesn't sound too bad.
Also, it'd all reasonably make sense in a (D&D) fantasy setting.

I like medieval realism, at least with regards to weapons and armor. I don't like fantasy character with too many anachronisms.

...
We are talking about a D&D based movie.
I think that ship might've sailed a long time ago. As in it's over the world's edge by now.

[dancrilis]

I can't see the logical leap between 'multiracial fantasy communities' and 'total genre kitchen sink blender' either, but maybe I missed something upthread.

"total genre kitchen sink blender" has been baked into the discussion effectively as it started.

I hope this new D&D movie has diversity in it.

Only where it belongs, not artificial diversity. The proper way to have diversity in a D&D movies is to have the protagonists travel and see diversity in their travels, that is they travel to many different places and see many diverse people in their travels.

An example of what not to do, a human farmer takes his cow to market to sell, and on his way he passes a hobgoblin, and a troll going the opposite way.
The farmer sees a centaur hitched to a plow making furrows in his field for spring planting. The farmer steps into a tavern to ask directions to the market and it is a fantasy version of the Star Wars Cantina with one or two humans sitting on the side, there is a beholder around serving drinks by wrapping his eyes talks around glasses and bottles, two pixies are wrestling one another on a table while an orc and an elf place bets. There is a minotaur serving as a bouncer tossing a halfling who has had too much to drink out the window, in the kitchen the is a red dragon acting as a stove, while a water elemental is washing the dishes and an air elemental is drying them and stacking them on shelves.

Note there are settings with "total genre kitchen sink blender" or "semi genre kitchen sink blender" and they work fine, Sigil, Shadowrun, Arcanum (to an extent) spring to mind.
But they aren't really standard* DnD, where the orcs are pillaging mauraders and not happilly working in the Orcquarter of the city etc.

*to the extent that standard can be applied to DnD.

[Hopeless]

So a post apocalyptic setting?

1500 years from now the land of Rhitia is beset by the forces of the Yuesha an empire spread across the Western Continent that has fallen prey to their own abuse of natural resources forcing them to seek new lands to supply their needs.

Rhitia is just a small group of islands believed to be even older than Yuesha, but their mutual history has been long forgotten, but they have been the centre of resistance against the Yueshan invaders.

Magic often mistaken for technology is only barely recovering since the downfall of the ancient civilisation.

Back then there was supposed to have been only humanity but the few humans left survived by hiding in underground shelters whilst those trapped on the surface changed greatly becoming dwarves, halflings, elves, goblins, orcs, ogres even trolls all the result of the survivors adapting to the changes wrought by staying unprotected.

However the past is about to return as a group of lost travellers find themselves in this new era trying to figure out what happened and either find a way home or rebuild a new life.

If they survive long enough to discover which future they want to pursue!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

So a post apocalyptic setting?

There's "Don't plan for any sequels, just make a good movie" and then there's "make sure the setting can't ever be used for any kind of standard D&D fare".

The Shannara books are just fine and the TV series had it's own cool spin on this concept, but for a D&D movie I'd really be expecting a world with more open possibilities. The movie doesn't have to be a complete kitchen sink, as long as there is the possibility that there could be powerful real magic users out there, and lands full of strange monsters, and all sorts of stuff from any source book.

[Tom Kalbfus]

"total genre kitchen sink blender" has been baked into the discussion effectively as it started.




Note there are settings with "total genre kitchen sink blender" or "semi genre kitchen sink blender" and they work fine, Sigil, Shadowrun, Arcanum (to an extent) spring to mind.
But they aren't really standard* DnD, where the orcs are pillaging mauraders and not happilly working in the Orcquarter of the city etc.

*to the extent that standard can be applied to DnD.

Until they can produce ansuccessful D&D movie that is not a joke, then I think they should stay away from the silly stuff and just produce standard D&D with all the troupes presented in a serious way. I think the movie should be presented is as realistic way as possible given the presence of magic.

The first step is to present a medieval setting and overlay the fantasy stuff on top of it. I don't want characters that look or act like they just stepped off the subway. Modern idioms should be avoided. The Middle Ages had a lot of rough edges, I don't want a protagonist that is totally relatable to modern audiences, he or she should have flaws that are worked out through the course of the movie. Each character needs room to grow, that is what makes the story interesting.

[Peelee]

Until they can produce ansuccessful D&D movie that is not a joke, then I think they should stay away from the silly stuff and just produce standard D&D with all the troupes presented in a serious way. I think the movie should be presented is as realistic way as possible given the presence of magic.

The vast majority of successful movies that take place in the real world are ridiculously unrealistic, so I don't quite see what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Tom Kalbfus]

"total genre kitchen sink blender" has been baked into the discussion effectively as it started.




Note there are settings with "total genre kitchen sink blender" or "semi genre kitchen sink blender" and they work fine, Sigil, Shadowrun, Arcanum (to an extent) spring to mind.
But they aren't really standard* DnD, where the orcs are pillaging mauraders and not happilly working in the Orcquarter of the city etc.

*to the extent that standard can be applied to DnD.

The image of Roy Greenhilt in a bikini aside that doesn't sound too bad.
Also, it'd all reasonably make sense in a (D&D) fantasy setting.



...
We are talking about a D&D based movie.
I think that ship might've sailed a long time ago. As in it's over the world's edge by now.

I want to emerse myself in the movie, that means the actors should play the characters in their own setting, not themselves as they would behave and act in that situation. The Lord of the Rings did that pretty well, for example, it was a European mythological setting, I did not see any black or Asian characters that were included just for the sake of diversity. Middle Earth is not a real setting, but they stuck to the author's intent and produced a world as it was described in the Lord of the Rings novels. The same goes for the future Mulan movie, I don't expect a white character to suddenly show up for the sake of diversity. If the movie makers can stay away from modern times and not be politically relevant to the time the film is being made in, that would be a good first step in producing an excellent movie. If I can watch a movie and not tell what time period it was made in by how the characters act, then were are on the right track.

Also I don't want any fighters with blue lipstick!

[Peelee]

I want to emerse myself in the movie, that means the actors should play the characters in their own setting, not themselves as they would behave and act in that situation. The Lord of the Rings did that pretty well, for example, it was a European mythological setting, I did not see any black or Asian characters that were included just for the sake of diversity. Middle Earth is not a real setting, but they stuck to the author's intent and produced a world as it was described in the Lord of the Rings novels. The same goes for the future Mulan movie, I don't expect a white character to suddenly show up for the sake of diversity. If the movie makers can stay away from modern times and not be politically relevant to the time the film is being made in, that would be a good first step in producing an excellent movie. If I can watch a movie and not tell what time period it was made in by how the characters act, then were are on the right track.

Also I don't want any fighters with blue lipstick!

Mulan explicitly takes place in China, so Chinese people logically make sense for the cast. The Lord of the Rings, while based on Tolkien's experiences and life view, take place in Middle Earth, which is not Europe, and feature elves, dwarfs, and hobbits, all of which are fictional, and I do not recall any of them (not humans, for that matter) being explicitly described as "uniformly white, with other looks being explicitly from other continents". And, even if that were the case, they meet with other humans from all over, since they travel quite a bit. So, again, I fail to see what you're trying to accomplish with "no black or Asian actors" other than being upset at them not looking the way you think they should.

[Keltest]

Mulan explicitly takes place in China, so Chinese people logically make sense for the cast. The Lord of the Rings, while based on Tolkien's experiences and life view, take place in Middle Earth, which is not Europe, and feature elves, dwarfs, and hobbits, all of which are fictional, and I do not recall any of them (not humans, for that matter) being explicitly described as "uniformly white, with other looks being explicitly from other continents". And, even if that were the case, they meet with other humans from all over, since they travel quite a bit. So, again, I fail to see what you're trying to accomplish with "no black or Asian actors" other than being upset at them not looking the way you think they should.

Dwarves. 0 Fs.

Sorry not sorry.

Also, the interactions of the different ethnic groups was at least mentioned. The Rohirrim are fair haired and basically Germanic, while the Dunlanders had dark hair and more tanned skin. Inciting the hostilities between the existing groups and cultures was a deliberate plan of Saruman's to help weaken Rohan for conquest.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also I don't want any fighters with blue lipstick!

Agreed. I know the effect they were trying to do, but they didn't pull it off.

And if you don't want white people in China, you need to go back well before the turn of the millennium. The BC to AD one. The survivors of Crassus' legions were sent to China as slaves, and their descendants are still there.

[Peelee]

Dwarves. 0 Fs.

Sorry not sorry.

I laughed.

Also, the interactions of the different ethnic groups was at least mentioned. The Rohirrim are fair haired and basically Germanic, while the Dunlanders had dark hair and more tanned skin. Inciting the hostilities between the existing groups and cultures was a deliberate plan of Saruman's to help weaken Rohan for conquest.

Fair. What of the Rohirrim? Or the myriad others that exist?

I just bristle when I see the proclamation of "inclusion for the sake of inclusion," especially in fantasy works.

[Keltest]

I laughed.

Fair. What of the Rohirrim? Or the myriad others that exist?

I just bristle when I see the proclamation of "inclusion for the sake of inclusion," especially in fantasy works.

Well, the Rohirrim at least explicitly mapped to the Anglo-Saxons, except that they had horses. Tolkien had something of a fascination with them. "Southrons" and Haradrim were identified as being of darker skin and visible "foreign" compared to the men of Bree and Laketown.

Its important to remember that Middle Earth came about in large part due to Tolkien's desire to explore the evolution of language and cultural groups. He was very particular about keeping track of different cultures and peoples, how much they could and would interact and intermix with each other. It was, quite literally, the basis of his worldbuilding

[dancrilis]

I just bristle when I see the proclamation of "inclusion for the sake of inclusion," especially in fantasy works.

I like things to make sense or have to appearance of making sense.

For instance if the Gods decide your race at the moment of conception (they roll on a table to determine what you are) then having a society with a lot of races working together makes sense (Orcs can have elf kids, an elf couple could have a dwarf and a halfling for children etc) - if so fine, just tell me the gods are doing this.
On the other hand if Orcs have Orc children and Elves have Elf children and a multi-racial couple have half-breed children, and the society is fully integrated and has been for the last thousand years why isn't everyone a half-breed? Do the races have racial purity programs seperate from the otherwise full integration? - if so fine, just tell me that society has these rules.

Now you seem to be talking about diversity in the human population (and it is probably safe to talk to you about it) but it just feels less likely to go down a potentially dark path so I will keep the races as fantasy ones (hope it doesn't muddy the waters to much), but the same logic above applies to human diversity in a fantasy setting also.

[Dargaron]

Here's a pitch: how about an honest-to-goodness adaptation of the Tomb of Horrors? It's an old enough adventure that casual Dungeons and Dragons players won't have actual first-hand experience with it, but it's well-known enough that there are archetypical moments and scenes that should be recognizable to an audience (Statue's mouth, anyone?). Meanwhile, for non-D&D players, the actual plot/concept is simple enough: treasure hunters go into a dangerous tomb, get trapped and have to press forward. It's got a self-contained setting and cast of characters, and doesn't have to say much of anything about the outside world e.g. it doesn't really matter if the movie is set in Faerun, Eberron, Points of Light or whatever. Most of the nasties are traps/puzzles, so you don't have to worry about "why isn't the dragon chasing them into the next room" or "what do the Gibbering Mouthers eat when there aren't adventurers" or other dungeon-y stuff like that.

Basically, take Saw, sprinkle in some magic, add elves+dwarves and blend to taste.

[Keltest]

Here's a pitch: how about an honest-to-goodness adaptation of the Tomb of Horrors? It's an old enough adventure that casual Dungeons and Dragons players won't have actual first-hand experience with it, but it's well-known enough that there are archetypical moments and scenes that should be recognizable to an audience (Statue's mouth, anyone?). Meanwhile, for non-D&D players, the actual plot/concept is simple enough: treasure hunters go into a dangerous tomb, get trapped and have to press forward. It's got a self-contained setting and cast of characters, and doesn't have to say much of anything about the outside world e.g. it doesn't really matter if the movie is set in Faerun, Eberron, Points of Light or whatever. Most of the nasties are traps/puzzles, so you don't have to worry about "why isn't the dragon chasing them into the next room" or "what do the Gibbering Mouthers eat when there aren't adventurers" or other dungeon-y stuff like that.

Basically, take Saw, sprinkle in some magic, add elves+dwarves and blend to taste.

Will it really be a proper D&D movie if they don't flood the tomb of horrors with a legion of conscripted commoners though?

[Morty]

I want to emerse myself in the movie, that means the actors should play the characters in their own setting, not themselves as they would behave and act in that situation. The Lord of the Rings did that pretty well, for example, it was a European mythological setting, I did not see any black or Asian characters that were included just for the sake of diversity. Middle Earth is not a real setting, but they stuck to the author's intent and produced a world as it was described in the Lord of the Rings novels. The same goes for the future Mulan movie, I don't expect a white character to suddenly show up for the sake of diversity. If the movie makers can stay away from modern times and not be politically relevant to the time the film is being made in, that would be a good first step in producing an excellent movie. If I can watch a movie and not tell what time period it was made in by how the characters act, then were are on the right track.

Also I don't want any fighters with blue lipstick!

If your sense of immersion is hurt by an ethnically-diverse cast of a movie set in a purely fictional, fantasy world, then your sense of immersion is weak and you have no one to blame for yourself. Likewise with people using colorful lipstick.

[Psyren]

I like things to make sense or have to appearance of making sense.

For instance if the Gods decide your race at the moment of conception (they roll on a table to determine what you are) then having a society with a lot of races working together makes sense (Orcs can have elf kids, an elf couple could have a dwarf and a halfling for children etc) - if so fine, just tell me the gods are doing this.
On the other hand if Orcs have Orc children and Elves have Elf children and a multi-racial couple have half-breed children, and the society is fully integrated and has been for the last thousand years why isn't everyone a half-breed? Do the races have racial purity programs seperate from the otherwise full integration? - if so fine, just tell me that society has these rules.

Now you seem to be talking about diversity in the human population (and it is probably safe to talk to you about it) but it just feels less likely to go down a potentially dark path so I will keep the races as fantasy ones (hope it doesn't muddy the waters to much), but the same logic above applies to human diversity in a fantasy setting also.

In D&D this varies. For some races, half-and-half relationships always lead to half-breeds (e.g. human + elf will never = pure elf), and half-breeds breed true (half-elf + half-elf always = half-elf.) Whereas for others like planetouched, the mixed race can be dormant for generations only to pop up randomly - you can get an aasimar or tiefling from two humans that are many, many generations removed from whatever introduced the celestial blood into their line in the first place, for example.

For the former, there is indeed some form of "racial purity" standard that explains how pure elves and orcs still exist despite a setting being around for millennia - this tends to be cultural, with elves being aloof and orcs seeing other humanoid races as weak. And then there's the fact that the gods are probably regulating this sort of thing to an extent too - I doubt Grummsh or even Corellon would be thrilled at a world consisting of only "half-X" for example.

[Dargaron]

In D&D this varies. For some races, half-and-half relationships always lead to half-breeds (e.g. human + elf will never = pure elf), and half-breeds breed true (half-elf + half-elf always = half-elf.) Whereas for others like planetouched, the mixed race can be dormant for generations only to pop up randomly - you can get an aasimar or tiefling from two humans that are many, many generations removed from whatever introduced the celestial blood into their line in the first place, for example.

For the former, there is indeed some form of "racial purity" standard that explains how pure elves and orcs still exist despite a setting being around for millennia - this tends to be cultural, with elves being aloof and orcs seeing other humanoid races as weak. And then there's the fact that the gods are probably regulating this sort of thing to an extent too - I doubt Grummsh or even Corellon would be thrilled at a world consisting of only "half-X" for example.

My 4e campaign had races determined by geography: Humans, Half-Elves, Elves, Eladrin and Tieflings were all just human subraces, and there was a flat chance that any "human" born in the southern mountain zone was a Tiefling, while Elves, Half-Elves and Eladrin are only born in the northern plains/forest zone. The one exception was that Eladrin weren't actually a natural variant of elves, and the secrets of creating an Eladrin was closely-guarded by the aristocratic families of Kor (Elf-France). Halflings, Dwarves and Dragonborn were all their own races, although the Dragonborn had been symbolically "adopted" as the Sixth Tribe of dwarf-kind, with deep ties of fostership and hospitality replacing marriage alliances.

The fun thing about fantasy worlds is that you don't need Darwinian evolution to be the "right" answer. You can have the world work on Lamarckian descent, for example, and that's 100% valid.

[Legato Endless]

Beyond the directors confirming they're aiming for an action flick with comedy elements, they've cited trying to emulate the feel of a table during play, rather than merely another page in Faerun's bloated mythology. I'm assuming that means we'll get a bit more problem solving and picking up the pieces when a plan falls apart than say, Warcraft's rather puerile melodrama.

I like medieval realism, at least with regards to weapons and armor. I don't like fantasy character with too many anachronisms.

A barbarian who traded out the Conan aesthetic for full plate would be fine with me.

[Tom Kalbfus]

If your sense of immersion is hurt by an ethnically-diverse cast of a movie set in a purely fictional, fantasy world, then your sense of immersion is weak and you have no one to blame for yourself. Likewise with people using colorful lipstick.

21st century Medieval is cr*p! Medieval societies don't have the diversity we have, and if we produce that for a D&D movie, it's going to be more like Ella Enchanted than Lord of the Rings, and if our D&D movie is going to be like Ella Enchanted, it's going to be cr*p just like all the other D&D movies. Now if we are going to have a serious movie, and not one that makes fun of itself we are going to need some realism, not plastic armor and rubber swords! In the Forgotten Realms, if you want to use black actors, they can play drow, give them purple contact lenses, pointed ears and white-haired wings and they will look the part, actually the Witcher has black actors play elves.

As for Asians, are you expecting routine flying carpet flights from Kara Tur? In the Realms, that is where the Asian characters would come from, and most aren't high level wizards with access to magic and magical items, so they would travel on horseback on on ships like Marco Polo or Columbus. Most of you average ordinary guys are farmers, so the races they would see would tend to be dwarves, elves, halflings, and gnomes, a black guy might be mistaken for a drow, they are not commonly encountered.

[Peelee]

Medieval societies don't have the diversity we have

While true, D&D is not an Earth medieval society, so I have no idea why you think that is in any way relevant.

[Tom Kalbfus]

If your sense of immersion is hurt by an ethnically-diverse cast of a movie set in a purely fictional, fantasy world, then your sense of immersion is weak and you have no one to blame for yourself. Likewise with people using colorful lipstick.

Beyond the directors confirming they're aiming for an action flick with comedy elements, they've cited trying to emulate the feel of a table during play, rather than merely another page in Faerun's bloated mythology. I'm assuming that means we'll get a bit more problem solving and picking up the pieces when a plan falls apart than say, Warcraft's rather puerile melodrama.



A barbarian who traded out the Conan aesthetic for full plate would be fine with me.

Most barbarians aren't going to be body builders with a set of weights so they can develop and articulate each muscle group, think more like American Indians, most of those people don't look like Conan the Barbarian either. The reason they don't wear suits of full plate is because they don't know how to make it, and the second reason is plate mail tends to clank and make noise which makes hunting difficult. Barbarians will tend to fight the way they hunt. Barbarians are generalists and self-sufficient, they would make their own bows, they will hunt and collect furs and go to civilized settlements to trade those furs for metal weapons, and some type of armor, but not usually anything like full plate.

[JadedDM]

In the Forgotten Realms, if you want to use black actors, they can play drow, give them purple contact lenses, pointed ears and white-haired wings and they will look the part, actually the Witcher has black actors play elves.

Oh, how nice of you. Black people can have a villain race, as a treat.

Basically, if I understand you here, the D&D movie needs to be whites only, or else it's not 'realistic.' If there are any people of color, they can play either evil races or foreigners, right? Otherwise it's 'forced diversity.'

You do know this movie is set to be released in 2022, right, not 1922?

[Tom Kalbfus]

While true, D&D is not an Earth medieval society, so I have no idea why you think that is in any way relevant.

It's kind of what the audience expects when they go to a movie theater, they will have seen movies like Lord of the Rings, and if they don't get something similar to that, and get something more like History of the World Part One by Mel Brooks, then they will feel they have not gotten their money's worth when they bought their tickets.

You ever see the You Tube videos by Shadiversity? The guy collects swords and other medieval weapons and Armor, he says for instance that fighters should use more pole arms as they are more specialized for battle and for penetrating armor. He says, you don't see women warriors due to the lack of Birth control, though he admits that weapons make fighting more equal between a man and a woman than bare-handed fighting and wrestling. He says orcs should use bows because bows require great strength to pull those strings, he also says the axe heads depicted on battle axes are too big, most battle axes had small heads because otherwise they would be too heavy to use.

A D&D movie should be rated R because to actually show the violence, with the special effects we have available, it's not going to be roll to hit and then deduct the hit points if you do. You are going to see wounds, spilt blood and guts, this will be cgi, but if it's done properly, it's going to look very real!

Dwarves can be done much the way they were shown in the Hobbit, D&D dwarves aren't too different from those of Middle Earth, elves are much the same only more magic. I think you will see more female wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and druids, because the main features of those character classes are not physical strength, men will be the fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and barbarians, though some female barbarians will actually be some other class and be called a "barbarian" most of the members of barbarian tribes will be warriors and commoners if you go with 3rd edition. A few of the women will be clerics, or sorcerers.

These are my opinions on the matter.

[Tom Kalbfus]

Oh, how nice of you. Black people can have a villain race, as a treat.

Basically, if I understand you here, the D&D movie needs to be whites only, or else it's not 'realistic.' If there are any people of color, they can play either evil races or foreigners, right? Otherwise it's 'forced diversity.'

You do know this movie is set to be released in 2022, right, not 1922?

Should it matter? This is not our World, so it should not have our standards or meet our expectations for 21st century First World Western countries. If we want to get into this world, it must not remind us of our own. Do you like Ella Enchanted? A modern fairy tale with swords and arrows, in straw thatched houses with mailboxes where the morning newspaper gets delivered, and a garage with two horses in it? Ella Enchanted has a lot of anachronisms in it. It is kind of a comedy making fun of fairy tales for laughs, but if you want suspense, you have to make the movie a bit more serious than that. It helps if characters have medieval attitudes.