Gender Flipped forced relationship books

[moonfly7]

Ever notice how if a story has any element of a forced romantic relationship, be it marriage or what have you, if anyone is ok with it or is benefiting from it, its the dude? Sure plenty of times they both want out, but I've never read a book where the woman is getting something out of it/is onboard with it and happy and the guy is 100% "Heck no why would this be ok with me?". Not that I read ton's of these stories or anything but I've seen one or two, and they're generally the same thing.
Are there even books like this that exist? doesn't have to be main plot/point of the story, honestly it's better if it isn't in my opinion, but does anybody know of any books like this at all?

[Manga Shoggoth]

A full novel doesn't spring to mind, but there was a short story called (I think) Twice Knightly. A squire in King Arthur's court is duped into going on a quest to rescue a damsel from a dark knight when all the knights in the court suddenly find they have something - anything - else to do rather than go on this noble quest.

The reason was that the damsel is a harridan notorious in the community as trying to get herself attached to a knight (and who brought with her a mother in law who was even worse), and since the knight who rescues the maiden is supposed to marry her...

(Needless to say, the dark knight in question is delighted to be rid of her)

The squire, of course, is not happy about this as - besides not wanting the damsel in question - has his own lady-love that he can't marry unless he becomes a knight.

Of course, it turns out that there are at least two ways of being recognised as a knight...

EDIT: Found it: Twice Knightly by Alan Kennington, in the collection Tales of the Round Table ed. Mike Ashley (Past Times 1-85487-953-7, but apparantly only available as part of the boxed set Chronicles of King Arthur (1-85487-968-5?) with Quest for the Holy Grail).

[moonfly7]

A full novel doesn't spring to mind, but there was a short story called (I think) Twice Knightly. A squire in King Arthur's court is duped into going on a quest to rescue a damsel from a dark knight when all the knights in the court suddenly find they have something - anything - else to do rather than go on this noble quest.

The reason was that the damsel is a harridan notorious in the community as trying to get herself attached to a knight (and who brought with her a mother in law who was even worse), and since the knight who rescues the maiden is supposed to marry her...

(Needless to say, the dark knight in question is delighted to be rid of her)

The squire, of course, is not happy about this as - besides not wanting the damsel in question - has his own lady-love that he can't marry unless he becomes a knight.

Of course, it turns out that there are at least two ways of being recognised as a knight...

EDIT: Found it: Twice Knightly by Alan Kennington, in the collection Tales of the Round Table ed. Mike Ashley (Past Times 1-85487-953-7, but apparantly only available as part of the boxed set Chronicles of King Arthur (1-85487-968-5?) with Quest for the Holy Grail).

Wow, that was a fast correction. I was just getting on to say I couldn't find it and was going to ask if maybe the title was wrong. Sounds like a fun read.

[Ibrinar]

Hmm the beginning of A Brother's Price might count. In the setting men are greatly outnumbered by woman. They are protected and end up in arranged marriages to a whole group of sisters usually. And basically the author gender flipped plenty sexist tropes and behavior and exaggerated it further in some cases. Anyway at the beginning the MC is quite worried about getting married to their neighbors daughters I think. It doesn't happen but the worry might count?

[moonfly7]

Hmm the beginning of A Brother's Price might count. In the setting men are greatly outnumbered by woman. They are protected and end up in arranged marriages to a whole group of sisters usually. And basically the author gender flipped plenty sexist tropes and behavior and exaggerated it further in some cases. Anyway at the beginning the MC is quite worried about getting married to their neighbors daughters I think. It doesn't happen but the worry might count?

Honestly I don't think it counts for what I was going for but I'd love to read that anyways so I'm not dissapointed in slightest my dude.

[Mechalich]

The central conflict of the novels Quillifer and Quillifer: the Knight, by Walter Jon Williams is about an aggrieved goddess attempting to repeatedly force herself upon the titular protagonist and drag him off to her fairy realm in order to make him her mating slave (that's the brass tacks version, the actual prose is rather subtler).

On of the central characters of the classic science fiction masterwork Downbelow Station (Hugo Award winner in 1982), by CJ Cherryh, features a major female character who engages in a sexually abusive relationship with a male prisoner of war.

Miriam Bankcroft attempts to compel protagonist Takeshi Kovacs to serve as her boy-toy in Altered Carbon, by Richard K. Morgan.

Plotlines of this nature aren't especially uncommon, or new (Aphrodite, arguably, was pulling them as far back as Homer), but among humans at least they require flipping traditional physical and societal power dynamics.

Once you leave humans, or at least traditional biological humanity, behind, this sort of thing is absurdly common. In Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time, the females are utterly dominant and the males are virtually their slaves and females can just outright eat them if they want to, because it's a species of nanovirus-altered super spiders and the females are larger and stronger and more aggressive than the males.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Oh, the Night Angel trilogy has this as a plot in the third book. Unfortunately, it's really hard to describe the set-up without majorly spoiling the climax of the second book, but two characters are bound together by what is essentially a magical marriage contract, and the guy wants out so he can be with his actual true love.

I highly recommend the series, but fair warning, it is dark, dark, dark. That said, one of the things that I like about it is that it still stays remarkably high up on the idealism v. cynicism spectrum. You've got a miserable setting with a lot of horrible people faced with choices that can get downright sadistic, but you've also got a lot of people choosing love over hate, mercy over revenge, to do the right thing just because it is the right thing, that sort of thing. It's a unique contrast, and I really like it.

[Rynjin]

The OP wasn't what I expected from the title, so I guess my suggestions aren't really valid.

...None were SFW anyway.

[Thomas Cardew]

I think the most common trope for a reluctant male is a shotgun wedding granted that has died down a lot in the last century.

More modernly, there's a lot of examples of 'accidental' marriage where the man finds out he got married by participating in some ritual. The woman is thrilled (or ok with it) but the guy isn't. But those tend to be Sci FI and TV/Film. It's the plot of at least 1 or 2 Stargate episodes. Farscape has the John Critchon being forced to marry a Princess as he's the only way she can produce an heir or get turned over to the alien hunting him.

In an Ideal Husband, an Oscar Wilde play, Lord Goring is forced into a wager by a woman to marry her if he loses.

For not quite forced examples, in the Horatio Hornblower series, the titular character gets married out of guilt because he doesn't want to hurt the girls feelings by turning down her unwanted affections. In the Alloy of Law Mistborn series, the main character is the head of a noble house and is getting married to be bailed out of a bad financial situation. The girl is perfectly cognizant of and content with the deal she's making. The male less so.

EDIT: Oh, in the Jeeves and Wooster books several plots involve Wooster being almost forced into a unwanted marriage only to be saved by Jeeves.

Also in the Wheel of Time series, one of the main male characters, Mat, is forced at knifepoint by a queen into becoming her lover.

[J-H]

I'm drawing a blank on some of the names of the people involved, but Pride and Prejudice has this.

Elizabeth's younger sister (16?) sleeps with a playboy-type guy (in his 20s) who has no intention of marriage (her comment is something like "Oh, I feel so very naughty!"). Mr. Darcy finds out, and uses his influence to force the guy to marry her anyway. She's over the moon about it, and the guy appears to be pretty unhappy that he's going to have to put up with her brand of juvenile/rebellious airheadedness for the next several decades.

I have only seen the BBC adaptation ('90s?), and that was over 5 years ago, and I have not read the book.

[Tom Kalbfus]

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[uncool]

This is something of the conceit of Oresuki ("Are You Really the Only One Who Likes Me?"), where the main (male) character tries pursuing romantic relationships with two of his classmates (who themselves are pursuing his best friend), but is in turn blackmailed into a relationship with a third girl (the "Only One").

...I only watched the first four episodes and couldn't stand to watch any more

Spoiler: First four episodes

Show

in part because of the apparent message of "stick with your blackmailer, they might be stacked", which may be kinda relevant to whether it's something you want to watch

but a lot of people did enjoy it.

[Friv]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I would argue that people with power want beauty, and people without power want power. Historically, "people with power" has tended towards "men", which is why the historical versions of that trope have been gendered, but there is nothing inherent to the genders that causes this. Powerful women absolutely dally with various attractive men. See "the pool boy", "the tennis instructor", and so on.

What I've noticed is that when these stories are directed at women, what you usually have is a situation in which the way the guy is bound to the girl isn't directly romantic, but becomes so over time. The first example that hops to my head is Inuyasha - he's got a magical thingie on that allows Kagome to literally bring him to heel, and she can use that to control him in limited ways. This forces him to behave, which in turn causes them to fall in love.

I think that's because of the same historical reasons. There's an implied power dynamic that you can't just flip and have things run the same way, so authors give the woman an extra lever of some kind if they want her to have the upper hand in the relationship, and it doesn't matter if your fantasy setting is egalitarian because the reader isn't from an egalitarian society and people take their biases into fiction with them. As things get more even, I think that's a trope you'll see more of in both directions.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't think it is beauty, power or any other gender specific concept. What people want is status. Celebrities of both genders get people throwing themselves at them, wealthy people, attractive people, whatever form of status you have. We are a hierarchical species, it is natural to want to be on top or attracted to those who are.

The forced marriage trope falls into the same category as the chubby comedian with a power-girlfriend trope. It's the dream that as a low status person someone of high status will fall for you, no different than Twilight or 50 Shades of Abuse.

A decent example of this trope in reverse is the webcomic Age Matters, where a washed up unemployed woman of 30 is courted by CEOs, models, and other high status individuals because they lack a maternal figure. It's not quite the same, she starts out being forced into being a maid or being homeless but it matches the "lower status person being vigorously chased by higher status people."

One of the things the female power fantasies listed here have in common is that the love interest has multiple high status signatures. Young, attractive, athletic, wealthy, dress in suits, head of organizations. You don't get a lot of mid-50s CEOs or balding politicians, where if the narrative is from the male perspective you often do (Sopranos for instance.)

[SaintRidley]

Scroll down for The Berkshire Lady's Garland. Notably based on a real courtship, but the basic plot is this lady (a wealthy heiress) sees a guy she becomes interested in and decides she wants him to marry her. So she sends him a letter issuing him a challenge to a duel and when he arrives and sees this lady and not someone he's wronged, she tells him "Fight me or marry me." Knife or wife. Pick one.

[comicshorse]

In 'The Princess Bride' ( the book not the film) Prince Humperdink plans to marry the Guilder Princess until he discovers something not previously obvious about her

Spoiler

Show

She's bald but owns a multitude of hats

She's still up for the marriage and his family are keen on him still going ahead but he is suddenly much less in favour of the idea

[moonfly7]

Scroll down for The Berkshire Lady's Garland. Notably based on a real courtship, but the basic plot is this lady (a wealthy heiress) sees a guy she becomes interested in and decides she wants him to marry her. So she sends him a letter issuing him a challenge to a duel and when he arrives and sees this lady and not someone he's wronged, she tells him "Fight me or marry me." Knife or wife. Pick one.

First off, that was an amazing ballad, second the fact that this is supposedly a true story that happened when women had almost no power is very impressive. That lady pulled the big bamboozle on that poor lawyer.

[TaRix]

Hm. How about Sanderson's Warbreaker? There's political marriage intrigue, where the princess is set to wed a "god-emperor", but the groom is mostly naive about the whole situation. The marriage lets the princess investigate stuff and she grows to like the guy.

Oh, and the book might still be found for free on the author's site, so there's that.

[mucat]

Also in the Wheel of Time series, one of the main male characters, Mat, is forced at knifepoint by a queen into becoming her lover.

Their relationship really made it clear, has it not already been so, that Robert Jordan had some seriously messed up views on men, women, and how they relate to each other.

Mat had always been a ladies' man, but he was the ultimate "ethical hedonist". His respect for consent was absolute. He NEVER took advantage of a partner, or pressured her into doing anything she wasn't enthusiastically in favor of doing.

So then Tylin essentially rapes him at knifepoint, and all the female main characters close ranks and say "Serves you right, Mat. Now you're getting a taste of the way you treat women." And Mat agrees with them, and admits with resignation that he deserved what happened.

It's a weird superposition of Jordan appearing at first to say "I sincerely disapprove of men mistreating women," until you realize that what he's actually saying is "women are unreasonable tyrants, and that will never change, so men might as well nod and smile and go along with what they say."

[Tvtyrant]

And eventually marries her, not exactly without consent, but under heavy political pressure to do so.

Their relationship really made it clear, has it not already been so, that George R.R Martin had some seriously messed up views on men, women, and how they relate to each other.

Mat had always been a ladies' man, but he was the ultimate "ethical hedonist". He NEVER took advantage of a partner, or pressured her into doing anything she wasn't enthusiastically in favor of doing.

So then Tuon essentially rapes him at knifepoint, and all the female main characters close ranks and say "Serves you right, Mat. Now you're getting a taste of the way you treat women." And Mat agrees with them, and admits with resignation that he deserved what happened.

It's a weird superposition of GRRM appearing at first to say "I sincerely disapprove of men mistreating women," until you realize that what he's actually saying is "women are unreasonable tyrants, and that will never change, so men might as well nod and smile and go along with what they say."

That's not quite...


Tuon doesn't knife point him, Queen Tylin did. It was Elayne who made fun of him, who is frankly an idiot. Tuon he kidnaps, then she agrees to marry him when they split up.

Also the author is Robert Jordan, Martin is Song of Ice and Fire.

[Thomas Cardew]

And eventually marries her, not exactly without consent, but under heavy political pressure to do so.

Their relationship really made it clear, has it not already been so, that George R.R Martin had some seriously messed up views on men, women, and how they relate to each other.

Mat had always been a ladies' man, but he was the ultimate "ethical hedonist". He NEVER took advantage of a partner, or pressured her into doing anything she wasn't enthusiastically in favor of doing.

So then Tuon essentially rapes him at knifepoint, and all the female main characters close ranks and say "Serves you right, Mat. Now you're getting a taste of the way you treat women." And Mat agrees with them, and admits with resignation that he deserved what happened.

It's a weird superposition of GRRM appearing at first to say "I sincerely disapprove of men mistreating women," until you realize that what he's actually saying is "women are unreasonable tyrants, and that will never change, so men might as well nod and smile and go along with what they say."

This is inaccurate. First, the writer is Robert Jordan not GRRM. Second, you're conflating two characters, Tylin, the queen who rapes him, and Tuon, the woman he eventually marries.

More to the point, I'd rather not discuss RJ's views on women. I feel it's a topic that's likely to cross forum rules and more than likely to derail this thread. I'd suggest the Modernizing Wheel of Time thread as better place for that discussion. I offered it solely as an example to address OP's question.

[mucat]

That's not quite...


Tuon doesn't knife point him, Queen Tylin did. It was Elayne who made fun of him, who is frankly an idiot. Tuon he kidnaps, then she agrees to marry him when they split up.

Also the author is Robert Jordan, Martin is Song of Ice and Fire.

Yes, I fixed the Jordan <--> GRRM screwup the moment I realized what I had typed, but I wasn't fast enough. ;-)

The Tylin<-->Tuon confusion I STILL missed -- Apparently I need either sleep or lots of coffee -- so thanks; I'll fix that too now.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, I fixed the Jordan <--> GRRM screwup the moment I realized what I had typed, but I wasn't fast enough. ;-)

The Tylin<-->Tuon confusion I STILL missed -- Apparently I need either sleep or lots of coffee -- so thanks; I'll fix that too now.

No worries, the naming convention didn't help there.

I do agree that RJ has a tendency to write awful women. The men aren't much better, Jordan likes his characters to be barely scraping the acceptable protag barrel.

[Rynjin]

You know, on second thought, while it wasn't what I initially thought the OP was about Ranma 1/2 still fits the "forced relationship" bill, along with the other meaning of Gender Flip.

[Tom Kalbfus]

I would argue that people with power want beauty, and people without power want power. Historically, "people with power" has tended towards "men", which is why the historical versions of that trope have been gendered, but there is nothing inherent to the genders that causes this. Powerful women absolutely dally with various attractive men. See "the pool boy", "the tennis instructor", and so on.

What I've noticed is that when these stories are directed at women, what you usually have is a situation in which the way the guy is bound to the girl isn't directly romantic, but becomes so over time. The first example that hops to my head is Inuyasha - he's got a magical thingie on that allows Kagome to literally bring him to heel, and she can use that to control him in limited ways. This forces him to behave, which in turn causes them to fall in love.

I think that's because of the same historical reasons. There's an implied power dynamic that you can't just flip and have things run the same way, so authors give the woman an extra lever of some kind if they want her to have the upper hand in the relationship, and it doesn't matter if your fantasy setting is egalitarian because the reader isn't from an egalitarian society and people take their biases into fiction with them. As things get more even, I think that's a trope you'll see more of in both directions.

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[Friv]

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I don't know how to say this politely - you are just wrong. Lots of successful women with power and fame fool around with and have sex with their male fans or subordinates, and lots of powerful men prefer to status chase people of equal power.

This isn't even a hypothetical situation. Like I said, the pool boy is a trope for a reason, and that reason is how common it is.

And actually, I am going to give you an example right off:

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Allow me to introduce you to Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland. He was a personal trainer who built his gym into a small chain, and then married the Princess of Sweden.

[Willie the Duck]

Ever notice how if a story has any element of a forced romantic relationship, be it marriage or what have you, if anyone is ok with it or is benefiting from it, its the dude? Sure plenty of times they both want out, but I've never read a book where the woman is getting something out of it/is onboard with it and happy and the guy is 100% "Heck no why would this be ok with me?". Not that I read ton's of these stories or anything but I've seen one or two, and they're generally the same thing.
Are there even books like this that exist? doesn't have to be main plot/point of the story, honestly it's better if it isn't in my opinion, but does anybody know of any books like this at all?

In books:
Horatio Hornblower marries Maria despite really not wanting to. It's not exactly forced, but she's clearly into it and he just doesn't want to say no.

Not that I recommend Piers Anthony, but there are multiple books in the Xanth series with a reluctant groom character.

Music:
"So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
'Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive" -Paradise by the Dashboard Light (Meatloaf)

The TV tropes page had a good line: "The 50% of Country Music that isn't composed of 'She left me' songs seems to consist almost entirely of these."

TV:
Londo of Babylon 5 has multiple wives, and doesn't mind life on a distant diplomatic outpost he assumes will be blown up some day because it's better than being home.

Malcolm Reynolds of Firefly ends up married to Saffron in one of the episodes, and she wants it to be a marriage while he wants to get out of it. Turns out things are not as they appear, but at face value it fits.

Married... with Children seems to run on this idea (although at times Peg also seems to be 'stuck with' Al)

Seems like there are probably a bunch of Looney Toons or Looney Toons-inspired children's shows which would have examples.

[Tom Kalbfus]

I don't know how to say this politely - you are just wrong. Lots of successful women with power and fame fool around with and have sex with their male fans or subordinates, and lots of powerful men prefer to status chase people of equal power.

This isn't even a hypothetical situation. Like I said, the pool boy is a trope for a reason, and that reason is how common it is.

And actually, I am going to give you an example right off:



Allow me to introduce you to Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland. He was a personal trainer who built his gym into a small chain, and then married the Princess of Sweden.

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[Tvtyrant]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

That sounds like you are taking the same actions by both groups and ascribing them different motives. All of the men message the women above them in status, the women message the men above them in status, people eventually accept their status level and settle for their own rank and slide out of the dating pool. The rich guy eventually marries a model or rich woman, the normal women marry normal guys, new people come in and repeat. It hardly seems starkly gendered.




What is weird to me is that in bi-erasure papers the argument is that people assume you end up with the guy, so bi-men are actually gay and bi-women are actually straight. At the same time lots of papers argue the man does a minority of the relationship labor, being less emotionally intelligent and frankly lazier. So if being with a man requires more energy and gives you less, why is the assumption that being with a man is preferable all else being equal?

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Thread re-opened.