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    Default Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    The Wheel of Time is one of my all-time favorite epic book series, one that I think has a lot of potential for a Game of Thrones-style streaming adaptation. It has strong and well-rounded female (and male) characters, a believable and interesting world, cool if problematic magic system (more on that later), epic battles of both small and large scales, triumph of good over evil through long odds. political intrigue, romance, all the stuff that makes fantasy shows fun.

    But one of the biggest obstacles I can see to releasing a successful Wheel of Time show today would be how much of its mythos - the core of its very magic system in particular - is tied to a quite frankly antiquated gender binary. This was controversial even in the 90s, and we've grown even more skeptical of such a stance as time has gone on. Some examples of what I mean:

    Spoiler: Gender portrayal problems
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    - There are "male" and "female" halves to the One Power. Even beyond their biology or outward presentation, a channeler's very soul can only ever be one or the other, and that determines which of the two halves they can access.

    - The male side, or at least the average male channeler, is inherently stronger. The books use the analogy of upper body strength to try and explain this arbitrary difference, even though channeling and musculature are completely unrelated.

    - For some arbitrary reason, men are stronger at using the elements Earth and Fire, while women are stronger with Air and Water.

    - Women can link their powers to channel cooperatively up to a point, but then they need men to go beyond a certain number - because reasons. Men on their own meanwhile can't channel cooperatively in any number at all, ever, unless a woman is there to link them - once again, because reasons.

    - The only source of power available to all genders equally is inherently evil to access and controlled exclusively by the Big Bad evil deity - who himself is coded male. It is in fact attempting to overcome the gender binary that serves as the inciting incident for all the show's evil in the first place.

    - The Red Ajah are a fairly complex set of initial antagonists - or at least they should be. They perform a tragically necessary function (neutralizing saidin channelers before they inevitably go insane and cause mass destruction) and get demonized for it, but prior to the later books in the series they are almost universally portrayed as little more than man-haters who are more prone to corruption than other channelers. They also have a high proportion of lesbians in their ranks, because of course they do.

    - Expression and sexuality in general are touchy subjects in these books. There are lesbians and bisexual girls all over the place - fairly understandable given the setup - but gay men are practically nonexistent, and our one example of a trans(?) character, on top of being portrayed as an aberration in the setting as a whole, serves merely to reinforce the gender binary rather than challenge it.


    So obviously, if I were in charge of making a Wheel of Time show for {insert streaming service here} - gender is one the main things I'd tackle. But it's not the only thing I'd think of improving (there were also some narrative slumps at various points in the series - some of the least popular books among the fandom include Crossroads of Twilight and Towers of Midnight, and I'd probably tweak the final battle too.) I have ideas for all these, but wanted to hear from the Playground too.


    TL;DR - If you were in charge of modernizing/adapting Wheel of Time for a streaming service, what changes would you make?
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But one of the biggest obstacles I can see to releasing a successful Wheel of Time show today would be how much of its mythos - the core of its very magic system in particular - is tied to a quite frankly antiquated gender binary. This was controversial even in the 90s, and we've grown even more skeptical of such a stance as time has gone on.
    This is an awful take. Stripping out a core part of a setting because it doesn't fit with your personal views is a terrible way to do an adaption. The whole point of fantasy and science fiction is to explore interesting ideas in which the fictional world is different from our own – I really can't see any good reason for why "male and female magic works differently" should be prohibited as a piece of world-building.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    This is an awful take. Stripping out a core part of a setting because it doesn't fit with your personal views is a terrible way to do an adaption. The whole point of fantasy and science fiction is to explore interesting ideas in which the fictional world is different from our own – I really can't see any good reason for why "male and female magic works differently" should be prohibited as a piece of world-building.
    Yeah I can see stripping out the part where men are on average stronger, but making them work differently is fine. It's also an integral part of the direction the story takes

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    If male and female magic were not functionally different, Rand could simply learn channeling from Moirane. That would have led to a very different Wheel of Time for the first half of the series or so
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    The man is dead his work does not need modernising.

    I liked the books when I read them - don't believe I read any after he died (no offence to those who took over just a bit of time had passed and I had kindof lost interest).

    On the core of the topic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ... frankly antiquated gender binary ...
    This seems to be the cruz of your desired changes and discussing it in any depth is likely against board rules so I will focus on the setting of Wheel of Time itself.

    Wheel of Time Setting: Men and Woman are different at a fundamental level, both groups have advantages over the other and thereby drawbacks against the other.

    There is nothing wrong with that as a basic framework for a setting whether you feel it maps to reality or not.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Keep Brandon Sanderson TF away from it.

    I agree that the gender binary bits are cringey at best, though I feel Jordan was trying for a good message (if men and women just talked to each other with equal respect, most of the problems would have been resolved earlier, and that awareness was made clear by the books, if not the characters)

    I also disagree with the latter books dragging. I loved those sections of the story, and the event pacing seemed right in the full series. It was just tough since we had all been reading for 15+ years at that point, so I get why people wanted more climax and less character, but I was not in that camp myself.

    However, Sanderson can't write a person to save his life. He is good with world building and min-maxing magic systems, but he did not get the characters, either in terms of voice or motivation. I liked a lot of the plot of the final 3, but for the first time in the series, I had no idea of relative time frame, foreshadowing was a brick to the face, and the characters mostly forgot all the development they had spent years undergoing. I thought maybe it was tackling someone else's work, but then I read the first two Stormlight books, with one dimensional people and a world contrived to fit the far more well developed magic system.

    Ugh. Ranting. Anyway, the tough bit will be establishing the complexity of the different cultures, without being inherently judgemental, which is where I think WOT shines. Adding some grey between the male/female dichotomy would help, as long as the overall message of that not mattering as much as communication is preserved. Or maybe emphasized, since I feel that's the most positive message about the work, and maybe it's not as clear as it could be.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    This is an awful take. Stripping out a core part of a setting because it doesn't fit with your personal views is a terrible way to do an adaption. The whole point of fantasy and science fiction is to explore interesting ideas in which the fictional world is different from our own – I really can't see any good reason for why "male and female magic works differently" should be prohibited as a piece of world-building.
    Yes it is horrible. Likewise horrible is people being turned off by a series and never giving it a chance for the metaphysics of the story (not the narrative) seems in your face offensive.

    Both can be bad, and dozens other things can be bad, and sometimes you can not separate the two, the baby is joined, the wheat and the weeds can not be removed.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshL View Post
    Keep Brandon Sanderson TF away from it.

    I agree that the gender binary bits are cringey at best, though I feel Jordan was trying for a good message (if men and women just talked to each other with equal respect, most of the problems would have been resolved earlier, and that awareness was made clear by the books, if not the characters)

    I also disagree with the latter books dragging. I loved those sections of the story, and the event pacing seemed right in the full series. It was just tough since we had all been reading for 15+ years at that point, so I get why people wanted more climax and less character, but I was not in that camp myself.

    However, Sanderson can't write a person to save his life. He is good with world building and min-maxing magic systems, but he did not get the characters, either in terms of voice or motivation. I liked a lot of the plot of the final 3, but for the first time in the series, I had no idea of relative time frame, foreshadowing was a brick to the face, and the characters mostly forgot all the development they had spent years undergoing. I thought maybe it was tackling someone else's work, but then I read the first two Stormlight books, with one dimensional people and a world contrived to fit the far more well developed magic system.

    Ugh. Ranting. Anyway, the tough bit will be establishing the complexity of the different cultures, without being inherently judgemental, which is where I think WOT shines. Adding some grey between the male/female dichotomy would help, as long as the overall message of that not mattering as much as communication is preserved. Or maybe emphasized, since I feel that's the most positive message about the work, and maybe it's not as clear as it could be.
    Going to ignore most of the anti-Sanderson rant because this really isn't the time or place to argue his merits as a writer, but there is a WoT show currently in production. Sanderson is being consulted, but is not working directly on it, he's busy enough with his own works. My understanding is he visited the set and got a few pictures, and read through the scripts, but is not directly involved in the production in any way. So you should be fine.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    See, I found it interesting because it did a decent job of showing neither side was the superior one. When it comes to magic, there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides. As was said, women one on one are weaker on average than men, however, women are able to pool their power together and utterly overwhelm men with collaborative effort. if you want to go beyond the most basic levels of power, men and women need to work together to make it happen. Which by itself seems like an interesting and positive message to how the magic system works, or at least, how it could work ideally. As for the red ajah, meh, as far as i can recall, they were pretty much ALWAYS the most aggressively anti male group in the tower, and small wonder considering the type of men they train to deal with. For every bewildered farm boy with no idea whats going on, there is a wannabe dragon reborn out to tear the world apart. And the other ajah all have their own personality quirks, like hogwarts houses only more of them. And again, the overall message seems to be communal effort because while we do have the big boss lady of the aes sedai, we also have her tower representatives from all ajah to provide council from all different angles, and again the intent is pretty clear that this is how ideally the best decisions can be reached. They ARENT but thats due to all sorts of game of thrones style issues taking place in both the background and foreground of the story.

    As for it making for a decent tv series, I dunno, it could work, but it might require some rewriting due to how all over the place the story is, how huge the cast is, how many different stories are going on at once, and how it fluctuates from exciting to dull at random. That said, there is enough going on that you could likely double the GoT run time by the end, lol.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    TL;DR - If you were in charge of modernizing/adapting Wheel of Time for a streaming service, what changes would you make?
    Well speaking as someone who has read the entire series, like it in its own way, liked Mat Cauthon for his luck shenanigans, liked how much work Rand had to do to get this all done and such and so on...

    No. just no. Let it be. I agree the parts you say are problematic. but why stir the pot by drawing attention to the series by making changes that will just get the fans who like the divide angry? why bother to adapt when such an adaption will inevitably be bad and screw up in other ways? let the books remain books, the fans who like the gender stuff keep the pure vision -as much as they can at any rate-, and let everyone else move on and make other things that are more modern, original things that don't involve dredging up some other persons work and fiddling with it for some franchise cash cow money making. such alterations would be so vast that you might as well make something new, and I'd honestly prefer we'd actually do that over retreading old ground on the big screen.

    let the books be and people who want the divide to be important because of his vision or whatever have that, don't adapt it. make something new! something new that can be safely modern without ticking off the fans, because its something completely different. forget remaking that guys vision! hes dead! series finished! make your own vision. even if the new thing is just wheel of time with the serial numbers filed off with a different magic system, do that instead of rewriting wheel of time, because then it will be something NEW and you can go in ANY direction you want with it, rather than adhering to some guys vision thats no longer there, and thus will never get an author's pure vision send off now.

    Or to paraphrase the end of the books:
    Spoiler: Ending spoilers
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    There is no beginning or ending to the Wheel of Time, but it was AN ending.

    Wheel of Time? just one story. Its not THE story, its not something that needs to be retold. you can make new beginning with different stories and different endings. Rand's entire journey at the end was realizing he couldn't change human nature without becoming as evil as the Dark One himself and that people should be free and thus he just move on and be free. in turn we cannot change the nature of the Wheel of Time books....but we can be free and go forth and make our own stories with different natures and intentions.


    To me, remaking Wheel of Time in any form no matter how good would be silver medal to just...making a new fantasy world thats inspired by Wheel of Time but has magic that is based on modern thoughts of gender and sexuality, but I guess everything must be a franchise to be forever be brought back from the dead and paraded around again in the front of the big screen now to make everyone angry all over again. oh well.

    TLDR: so sorry, but my answer is that I'd cancel it and just....not do it. why place such a curse on Wheel of Time and myself? there are things I disagree with in it, but if I want to make a more updated thing about it, I'd just make an entirely new world to explore such things without all his and the fandom's baggage.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I don't think you can do much with the magic system, it's too baked into everything that happens.

    The big change I'd like to see in an adaptation is to dial up how dangerous the Red Ajah is in combat. They're the only people that are dedicated to channeler on channeler combat, and are expected to deal with people that are stronger than them and weaving things they can't see, even though they're handicapped by not being allowed to use the power as a weapon.

    . They're not the 'hee hee, I hate men' people, they're the war veterans.

    The Greens, Asha'man and damane seem to focus on soldier on soldier combat.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The big change I'd like to see in an adaptation is to dial up how dangerous the Red Ajah is in combat. They're the only people that are dedicated to channeler on channeler combat, and are expected to deal with people that are stronger than them and weaving things they can't see, even though they're handicapped by not being allowed to use the power as a weapon.
    It's a (probably deliberate) detail of the setting that none of the Aes Sedai Ajahs are actually very good at combat. By the start of the series they've been unchallenged for hundreds and hundreds of years, and they've grown complacent. It's only the ones like Moiraine and Cadsuane – who've spent long stretches of time away from the White Tower – who are capable fighters.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    First, thanks to everyone who replied so far!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    This is an awful take. Stripping out a core part of a setting because it doesn't fit with your personal views is a terrible way to do an adaption. The whole point of fantasy and science fiction is to explore interesting ideas in which the fictional world is different from our own – I really can't see any good reason for why "male and female magic works differently" should be prohibited as a piece of world-building.
    Well, I don't know that I'd categorize science as "my personal views" - but I'll put that aside for a moment. The issue from where I'm sitting is that there are two options if you leave the setting completely as-is - adapt it unchanged, knowing that the likely backlash and deluge of negative hot takes will drown out any positive press about the story itself - or don't adapt it at all. I genuinely don't see any other outcomes from leaving these fundamental underpinnings completely unchanged. Now, I'm sure there are a not-insignificant number of people that will opt for the latter (whether gladly or reluctantly) but that approach leaves precious little for anyone to talk about

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Yeah I can see stripping out the part where men are on average stronger, but making them work differently is fine. It's also an integral part of the direction the story takes

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    If male and female magic were not functionally different, Rand could simply learn channeling from Moirane. That would have led to a very different Wheel of Time for the first half of the series or so
    You're absolutely right about this problem - but I don't think the only possible options are "everyone's magic functions identically" and "magic relies on two and only two possible expressions of gender identity" either. Remember that Rand's magic comes from him being the reincarnation of a channeler from an era 3000+ years before the current one; you can set up the narrative problem of there being no Aes Sedai to teach him how to control his powers for reasons beyond "Boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider"

    Alternatively - you could even keep the majority of the story as-is, binary and all, with everyone including the metaphysics of the setting itself seemingly reinforcing that - but sprinkle hints throughout culminating in a tweak to the ending, such that the binary is yet another lie about the true nature of the One Power that people believed and baked into their training for a long time, that Rand helps his civilization to overcome. Like I said, I have a few different ideas on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Wheel of Time Setting: Men and Woman are different at a fundamental level, both groups have advantages over the other and thereby drawbacks against the other.

    There is nothing wrong with that as a basic framework for a setting whether you feel it maps to reality or not.
    I actually don't mind that as a framework for a setting either. But having it be reinforced metaphysically as a fundamental law that can't be overcome, and having all attempts to overcome it not only fail but be inherently evil, is where it drifts into being problematic. (That reminds me, there's a great Giant quote I need to add to my sig at some point.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Yes it is horrible. Likewise horrible is people being turned off by a series and never giving it a chance for the metaphysics of the story (not the narrative) seems in your face offensive.

    Both can be bad, and dozens other things can be bad, and sometimes you can not separate the two, the baby is joined, the wheat and the weeds can not be removed.
    I genuinely think it can be tweaked. As Seerow noted, the main purpose for it existing (at least initially) was so that (a) Rand would be forced into alliances with evil to learn magic properly, and (b) so that he would be feared and outnumbered by existing channelers at every turn, forcing him to found his own school. You can accomplish both of those objectives without using gender at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I don't think you can do much with the magic system, it's too baked into everything that happens.

    The big change I'd like to see in an adaptation is to dial up how dangerous the Red Ajah is in combat. They're the only people that are dedicated to channeler on channeler combat, and are expected to deal with people that are stronger than them and weaving things they can't see, even though they're handicapped by not being allowed to use the power as a weapon.

    . They're not the 'hee hee, I hate men' people, they're the war veterans.

    The Greens, Asha'man and damane seem to focus on soldier on soldier combat.
    Well the Greens were initially founded to counter Dreadlords, and Seanchan has plenty of damane vs. damane in their history - so there's definitely reasons to have anti-channeler techniques prevalent in those groups too - but otherwise I agree.

    Have to grab some dinner but I'll definitely come back to cover some of the points I missed.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I really don't see how this discussion can continue with any sort of debate on the merits without being - thanks to the trends and redefinitions over the last 20 years - inherently political in nature.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I genuinely think it can be tweaked. As Seerow noted, the main purpose for it existing (at least initially) was so that (a) Rand would be forced into alliances with evil to learn magic properly, and (b) so that he would be feared and outnumbered by existing channelers at every turn, forcing him to found his own school. You can accomplish both of those objectives without using gender at all..
    Sigh lots of Jordan's Wheel of Time is not A) "I create a problem" and then A') "I solve the problem I created earlier" in order to create conflict.

    Jordan makes lots of his choices for aesthetic personal reasons, reasons he sees meaning inside of.

    The fact males and females in Jordan world is fundamentally incompatible, and that there is a "theory of mind" blindness is a choice that Jordan made for he finds it aesthetically pleasing. Likewise naming so many of his characters after King Arthur Mythos, and picking the weirdest spelling for some of them. Likewise using Zoroastrianism Monotheism as a basis for the nature of One Power metaphysics (and using Zoroastrianism differently than George RR Martin did it with the Red Priestess Melisandre.) Yadda yadda yadda.

    Some people find these aesthetic choices to be charming, while other people see the same choices to be offensive and off putting. That said they are so intertwined into the mechanics plus flavor of the world it is hard if not impossible to remove them without changing the nature of the charm of the setting.

    ------

    Sure you can change some of the stuff on the margins like remove the mentioning that male channellers are generally stronger than women channellers. You do not need to explain all the details and mechanics with a tv show, just do tv short hand. And removing some of the stuff may be enough.

    But you can't remove everything that is problematic and frustrating with WoT when it comes to gender, and it still be the WoT. The story that Jordan was trying to tell is that there is some aspect of reality, no matter how wise or experienced you are, where you will never understand your neighbor fully, yet you need to cooperate with them for we are stronger together when we can find a way to cooperate with this part of ourselves we are blind to.

    Likewise the pain of living and the pleasure of living has a similar dichotomy. You can't remove that part of ourselves and still be human, either become monstrous, or becoming a form of lesser human where the light of the world is no longer as bright.

    That is the themes and metaphysics Jordan wove into his setting, for better or worse.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The issue from where I'm sitting is that there are two options if you leave the setting completely as-is - adapt it unchanged, knowing that the likely backlash and deluge of negative hot takes will drown out any positive press about the story itself - or don't adapt it at all.
    Cutting out core parts of a setting because you're afraid of "backlash" and "negative hot takes" from the kind of people who try and get TV shows cancelled is a terrible idea. The kinds of people who'll hate WoT for having metaphysical differences between men and women will probably hate it for various other reasons anyway, so trying to please them is a losing battle.

    As a general rule, shying away from making a faithful adaption because you're scared of negative publicity is never a good idea. You'll just end up making something that pleases no-one.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Yeah. I dont know if there are stuff that should be changed or not.
    The magic system is -absolutely- not one of the bits that should be touched.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    What I would do:
    - Remove the "male channelers are stronger than female channelers" thing and the "men are better at earth/fire, women are better at water/air" thing.
    - Get rid of all the extraneous female nudity (eg, there's no reason for the women to take their shirts off when voting for a new Amyrlin Seat).
    - Add enough gay men to balance out all the gay women.
    - Maybe cast some trans women to play Aes Sedai? I'm not sure about that.
    - Remove Faile.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well, I don't know that I'd categorize science as "my personal views" - but I'll put that aside for a moment.
    There is no scientific reason to get modern science mixed in high fantasy, it's just personal preference. A fantasy world can be based on theory of four elements or four humours, it can have the Sun orbit the Earth or have Earth be flat, it can have evolution be lamarckian instead of darwinian, it can have true monarchy-by-divine-right, it can have diseases caused by miasma or evil spirits, so on and so forth.

    In fact, I'd go so far as to say that large part of fantasy's appeal is that it can go back to outdated and alien views and explore them. That can hold a better mirror to contemporary reality than just rehashing modern ideas. The idea that something should be changed in fantasy just because it's a hot potato in current discussion is silly.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Well the Greens were initially founded to counter Dreadlords, and Seanchan has plenty of damane vs. damane in their history - so there's definitely reasons to have anti-channeler techniques prevalent in those groups too - but otherwise I agree.
    Generally as part of military action, though. There hasn't been Dreadlords since the Trolloc Wars, the Reds train for and expect to have to fight other channelers in the course of their duty. Greens and Asha'man seem to be more inclined to the 'kill lots of Trollocs' approach.

    Do we know much about Seanchan history? I remember only one reference to a 400 aside battle where nearly everyone died.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Cutting out core parts of a setting because you're afraid of "backlash" and "negative hot takes" from the kind of people who try and get TV shows cancelled is a terrible idea. The kinds of people who'll hate WoT for having metaphysical differences between men and women will probably hate it for various other reasons anyway, so trying to please them is a losing battle.

    As a general rule, shying away from making a faithful adaption because you're scared of negative publicity is never a good idea. You'll just end up making something that pleases no-one.
    I find this stance odd. When Westworld was updated from its 1973 incarnation to the 2016 series, it received several changes to its core premise - the androids went from randomly glitching killbots to sapient and intentional revolutionaries, and the leader of that revolution was updated to be the (female) victim instead of the (male) gunslinger. Not only was it still recognizably Westworld, it was deeper than ever - moving from simply a monster movie set in a theme park that would be the template to Crichton's later Jurassic Park, to being a commentary on the nature of humanity and life itself. And if they hadn't made those changes, Westworld would have remained just that - just another monster movie.

    "To make a faithful adaptation, you can't change anything" is... certainly an opinion, but not one I share.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    What I would do:
    - Remove the "male channelers are stronger than female channelers" thing and the "men are better at earth/fire, women are better at water/air" thing.
    - Get rid of all the extraneous female nudity (eg, there's no reason for the women to take their shirts off when voting for a new Amyrlin Seat).
    - Add enough gay men to balance out all the gay women.
    - Maybe cast some trans women to play Aes Sedai? I'm not sure about that.
    - Remove Faile.
    I think Faile could be made more likeable. That one I have absolutely no ideas on, but it could in theory be done
    I'm highly on board with the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    A fantasy world can be based on theory of four elements or four humours, it can have the Sun orbit the Earth or have Earth be flat, it can have evolution be lamarckian instead of darwinian, it can have true monarchy-by-divine-right, it can have diseases caused by miasma or evil spirits, so on and so forth.

    In fact, I'd go so far as to say that large part of fantasy's appeal is that it can go back to outdated and alien views and explore them. That can hold a better mirror to contemporary reality than just rehashing modern ideas. The idea that something should be changed in fantasy just because it's a hot potato in current discussion is silly.
    Right, and that's exactly my point. To explore an idea, the work has to eventually reach a conclusion on that idea, whether implied or explicitly stated. Jordan's original work does exactly that - it sets up a dichotomous power source based on a gender divide, gives the world good reason to innately fear one half of that divide, and then presents a world and geopolitical framework based at least in part on that fear. Where it missteps is in the conclusion - that the divide is right and good, and any attempts to overcome are tricks from the enemy.

    That's why I presented the idea that you don't actually have to substantially change anything about the premise - just the ending, and adding in enough Adaptation Distillation sprinkled throughout to support that ending. (And of course, removing some of the problematic fluff that never really added anything, like saidar requiring passivity/surrender and the elements thing - none of that really mattered to the main cast anyway.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I think Faile could be made more likeable. That one I have absolutely no ideas on, but it could in theory be done
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    Honestly just remove the Saldean thing about couples needing to shout at/beat each other to show they respect one another, and it'd be fine. Faile has a ton of great moments and redeeming qualities that just get overshadowed by how long the kidnapping sideplot drags on for, and the aggravation caused by those aforementioned cultural differences. I mean, I still cry when on a reread I get to the scene where she forces Perrin to take a minute and grieve for his family. There's plenty of other moments that similarly showcase her as a great character and basically exactly what Perrin needs. Particualrly any time it comes to Perrin having to do politics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
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    Honestly just remove the Saldean thing about couples needing to shout at/beat each other to show they respect one another, and it'd be fine. Faile has a ton of great moments and redeeming qualities that just get overshadowed by how long the kidnapping sideplot drags on for, and the aggravation caused by those aforementioned cultural differences. I mean, I still cry when on a reread I get to the scene where she forces Perrin to take a minute and grieve for his family. There's plenty of other moments that similarly showcase her as a great character and basically exactly what Perrin needs. Particualrly any time it comes to Perrin having to do politics.
    Point - that was a powerful scene for me too, and that's another excellent idea for a change.

    Or even if they keep the cultural thing in, Perrin would get a nice cathartic this is not okay and you need to become a better person moment, followed by genuine remorse and an actual change in behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    What I would do:
    - Remove the "male channelers are stronger than female channelers" thing and the "men are better at earth/fire, women are better at water/air" thing.
    - Get rid of all the extraneous female nudity (eg, there's no reason for the women to take their shirts off when voting for a new Amyrlin Seat).
    - Add enough gay men to balance out all the gay women.
    - Maybe cast some trans women to play Aes Sedai? I'm not sure about that.
    - Remove Faile.
    1) Im not sure you can do this without further tweaking the entire magic system as the entire setup was, men are stronger one on one but cant link up while women can link up to become stronger. If you make men and women equal 1 on 1, will you also remove the limit to linking? Or will men be inherently disadvantaged in this different magic system? Im also unsure about the point behind not having men and women be stronger at different parts of magic as im not sure why thats a problem. Men and women use two different portions of magic, with two different styles, and rules behind how they function even though the end result is more or less the same, ie weaving the elements.

    2) Agreed, that was always odd.

    3) I... suppose? I mean, I dont recall gay women being gay was actually that plot relevant other than maybe interaction wise as we tended to be in a female population heavy area a lot of the story. So shoehorning in gay men just for the sake of equal representation seems kinda silly. Its also the sort of thing that easily gets messed up as gay for the sake of gay tends to turn into stereotype theater. Also, will they be turning established characters gay for this? Or literally creating new ones to serve as token representation?

    4) Ummm why? I mean, I dont see any real problem with that but it seems a strange thing to want to specifically focus on. Cast good actors and actresses and dont worry about what gender they were born with or identify as so long as they can play the part and play it well.

    5) I honestly cant relate to this as its been so long since I read the books I dont recall being that annoyed by her really. I mean, pretty much ALL of the characters were obnoxious in various ways.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    If the divided magic system is something to overcome, then the 'tainted saidin makes people go insane' becomes a big problem. You have to do something like 'the Dark One split the magic by gender, we have to fix it', which leads to all kinds of thorny problems.

    If trans Aes Sedai get access to saidir, does that mean they escape the madness? How does that affect society?

    If once split, the male half becomes inherently self destructive and violent, and the female half does not,
    that's... probably problematic?

    I'd want Perrin to actually walk away from the relationship, I think. Similarly with Mat and Tylin.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    1) Im not sure you can do this without further tweaking the entire magic system as the entire setup was, men are stronger one on one but cant link up while women can link up to become stronger. If you make men and women equal 1 on 1, will you also remove the limit to linking? Or will men be inherently disadvantaged in this different magic system? Im also unsure about the point behind not having men and women be stronger at different parts of magic as im not sure why thats a problem. Men and women use two different portions of magic, with two different styles, and rules behind how they function even though the end result is more or less the same, ie weaving the elements.

    2) Agreed, that was always odd.

    3) I... suppose? I mean, I dont recall gay women being gay was actually that plot relevant other than maybe interaction wise as we tended to be in a female population heavy area a lot of the story. So shoehorning in gay men just for the sake of equal representation seems kinda silly. Its also the sort of thing that easily gets messed up as gay for the sake of gay tends to turn into stereotype theater. Also, will they be turning established characters gay for this? Or literally creating new ones to serve as token representation?

    4) Ummm why? I mean, I dont see any real problem with that but it seems a strange thing to want to specifically focus on. Cast good actors and actresses and dont worry about what gender they were born with or identify as so long as they can play the part and play it well.

    5) I honestly cant relate to this as its been so long since I read the books I dont recall being that annoyed by her really. I mean, pretty much ALL of the characters were obnoxious in various ways.
    1) The point of removing the "men are stronger than women" thing is because it doesn't really matter. The variation of strength within each gender is far greater than the variation of strength between genders; if you have a male channeler and a female channeler, you have no way of knowing who's stronger. And the idea that women's ability to link is a balance to men's greater strength is silly for the same reason; there are plenty of times in the books where a woman takes down a man on her own.

    As for linking, I'd just make that one more area of lost knowledge. Maybe men can link on their own, but no one remembers how, or maybe there's more to it than just "women are needed to link" but the details have been forgotten. It's not that important. So long as you retain the ability of 13 linked channelers to automatically shield any individual, regardless of strength, the narrative function of linking remains.

    I'd get rid of men and women having different proficiencies at different elements because it just doesn't show up anywhere in the series, to the extent that I think Jordan either forgot about it or changed his mind after establishing it.

    3) The representation of homosexuality in the Wheel of Time is pretty much exclusively indulging in the "men think lesbians are sexy" trope. The point of establishing some gay men is to get away from that idea and move to a more respectful depiction of homosexuality. I don't think we need to add new characters, either. There are plenty of men who aren't established as being straight in the series who could be made gay without actually changing anything about them.

    4) As I said, I'm not completely sure that this one is a good idea. The intent is to imply that the saidin/saidar divide is not correlated with sex, but on the other hand I'm not sure that it can be done without having massively disruptive implications about the lore of the series. If occasionally there's a biologically female person who can channel saidin, that changes the setting significant ways.

    5) This was probably at least half a joke. I do think that the Faile/Perrin relationship is massively problematic, and any adaptation is going to have to rework it significantly. I also think that in books 7 through ~12 Perrin doesn't have anything meaningful to do, so Jordan gave him a bunch of pointless side-quests to keep him from dropping out of the narrative for half the series, and fixing that would be very nice. It's not really related to gender issues, though.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    1) Im not sure you can do this without further tweaking the entire magic system as the entire setup was, men are stronger one on one but cant link up while women can link up to become stronger. If you make men and women equal 1 on 1, will you also remove the limit to linking? Or will men be inherently disadvantaged in this different magic system? Im also unsure about the point behind not having men and women be stronger at different parts of magic as im not sure why thats a problem. Men and women use two different portions of magic, with two different styles, and rules behind how they function even though the end result is more or less the same, ie weaving the elements.
    You can explain this one differently via simple dilution - there are far more female channelers in the world, so the few males in this era that gain control of saidin without dying have more at their fingertips and end up being a little stronger. This makes it less about arbitrary gender divides than it does simple math, which is more logical. The books themselves lay the foundation for this, because the Wheel innately seeks equilibrium and Rand's ta'veren nature warps chance to get him what he needs - which is why the Black Tower found so many members capable of surviving training so quickly.

    The only thing that would really change is some of the Forsaken rankings, and those honestly didn't matter at all - Lanfear being canonically weaker than Asmodean for example meant nothing for either of them, and Be'lal being the weakest man among them makes perfect sense both with his preferred tactics and his eventual demise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    3) I... suppose? I mean, I dont recall gay women being gay was actually that plot relevant other than maybe interaction wise as we tended to be in a female population heavy area a lot of the story. So shoehorning in gay men just for the sake of equal representation seems kinda silly. Its also the sort of thing that easily gets messed up as gay for the sake of gay tends to turn into stereotype theater. Also, will they be turning established characters gay for this? Or literally creating new ones to serve as token representation?
    It wouldn't have to be main characters necessarily - just adding it in to some of the badass warrior societies like the Aiel or the Borderlanders or even the Warders and Black Tower (you know, places where such relationships could logically form / be found on a large-ish scale) would be enough to be (a) noticeable and (b) avoid negative stereotypes.

    If you're asking me for specific named characters I think this could be plausible for - Logain could be a good choice, since I don't think his sexuality came up one way or the other in the series. He's strong, capable, forthright, and a handsome actor would play him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    5) I honestly cant relate to this as its been so long since I read the books I dont recall being that annoyed by her really. I mean, pretty much ALL of the characters were obnoxious in various ways.
    While there are certainly no shortage of flawed characters, I can picture some being more popular in a show format than others, just like they were in the books - Min, Mat, Lan, Moiraine, Loial etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    1) The point of removing the "men are stronger than women" thing is because it doesn't really matter. The variation of strength within each gender is far greater than the variation of strength between genders; if you have a male channeler and a female channeler, you have no way of knowing who's stronger. And the idea that women's ability to link is a balance to men's greater strength is silly for the same reason; there are plenty of times in the books where a woman takes down a man on her own.

    As for linking, I'd just make that one more area of lost knowledge. Maybe men can link on their own, but no one remembers how, or maybe there's more to it than just "women are needed to link" but the details have been forgotten. It's not that important. So long as you retain the ability of 13 linked channelers to automatically shield any individual, regardless of strength, the narrative function of linking remains.

    I'd get rid of men and women having different proficiencies at different elements because it just doesn't show up anywhere in the series, to the extent that I think Jordan either forgot about it or changed his mind after establishing it.
    All of this.

    For the element thing - I think literally the only place it came up narratively was Egwene being an especially valuable damane because of her affinity for Earth, so her getting shipped back to the Seanchan mainland added a ticking clock to the third act of TGH. That was pretty much it. Elayne's talent with Fire never came up at all, other than torches randomly lighting when she was happy/excited - which you could just do without explaining it, she's a damn mage.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    4) As I said, I'm not completely sure that this one is a good idea. The intent is to imply that the saidin/saidar divide is not correlated with sex, but on the other hand I'm not sure that it can be done without having massively disruptive implications about the lore of the series. If occasionally there's a biologically female person who can channel saidin, that changes the setting significant ways.
    To elaborate a bit on what I alluded to upthread - a lot of limitations on using the power are simply due to tradition rather than being true limitations. Much like how Nynaeve uses all 5 elements to heal people and does a way better job of it than the Yellow Ajah, who only use three. So as much as I wouldn't mind it, I'm not saying the gender divide to saidin/saidar has to be removed completely - but making it a societal/cultural limitation that the main characters eventually overcome, rather than a metaphysical one that the main characters reinforce, is where I would want the series to ultimately go. It doesn't even have to get there until the end, so long as it gets there.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    5) This was probably at least half a joke. I do think that the Faile/Perrin relationship is massively problematic, and any adaptation is going to have to rework it significantly. I also think that in books 7 through ~12 Perrin doesn't have anything meaningful to do, so Jordan gave him a bunch of pointless side-quests to keep him from dropping out of the narrative for half the series, and fixing that would be very nice. It's not really related to gender issues, though.
    Agreed. Really the only plot-relevant thing Perrin does in that entire stretch is that he adds hundreds of damane to the Seanchan's ranks by using their forkroot to free his wife, which gives them the forces they need to finally assault the White Tower, allowing Egwene to successfully overthrow Elaida in the chaos. He also resolves the not-love-triangle with Berelain during this time. That entire sequence can be trimmed massively.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    1) I dunno, it seems to me that the main reason for there being less of a variance between genders than between channelers of the same gender is due to less direct competition and also the fact that our main cast, of course, are all exceptional special snowflakes when it comes to their abilities, so like, rand is able to obliterate 6 women trying to keep him from channeling, (I cant remember the actual total when he got kidnapped then saved by his black tower making its debut) but cadasune was able to restrain him solo (didnt she have a terangreal or whatever they are called that helped with that? God its been so long) And of course egwyene and nyaneve were all way stronger than the average because the two rivers wasnt breeding channeling out of existence like most of the aes sedai inspected areas were. "Its the old blood of manatherian blah blah blah" To me, a lot of the description of how the power varied between genders was done to try and establish a balance between them. Neither side could do it all themselves, both sides had positives and negatives, and only by working together could they do anything REALLY impressive. That sort of thing. So getting rid of all that kind of undercuts the entire background lore of the world imo.

    3) I admit, I honestly dont recall much in the way of gay women in the series, maybe it showed up more in the later books as I only made it to 7 or 8 I think. So I honestly cant argue on the whole lesbians are sexy inference as I didnt really get it. The closest I seem to recall was mainly things like the multiple ladies in rands life considering sharing and what that would mean. So more open to bisexuality. But like I said, its been years so I may have just zoomed past it.
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    3) The representation of homosexuality in the Wheel of Time is pretty much exclusively indulging in the "men think lesbians are sexy" trope. The point of establishing some gay men is to get away from that idea and move to a more respectful depiction of homosexuality. I don't think we need to add new characters, either. There are plenty of men who aren't established as being straight in the series who could be made gay without actually changing anything about them.
    Yeah no. Not going to agree with that bit. In part since its barely given any sort of attention.
    Would be a lot easier to just keep it out of the story entirely. And move back to the epic struggle between dark and light.

    Else as such the magic system is quite fine, and interestingly unique. The division between Saidar and Saidin helps it stand apart from all the other generic magic systems.
    Though if anything should be changed, then it might be the power level of channelers. It seems for a large part to make non-channelers mostly irellevant in any sort of conflict.

    3) I admit, I honestly dont recall much in the way of gay women in the series, maybe it showed up more in the later books as I only made it to 7 or 8 I think. So I honestly cant argue on the whole lesbians are sexy inference as I didnt really get it. The closest I seem to recall was mainly things like the multiple ladies in rands life considering sharing and what that would mean. So more open to bisexuality. But like I said, its been years so I may have just zoomed past it.
    Thats as such not even bisexuality if your thinking of Rand's harem. Thats just a poly relationship.
    The references to actual gay womans were kinda subtle. Mostly a talk of pillow friends between the Aes Sedai. I have to confess that reference flew over my head the first time i read the books.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    3) I admit, I honestly dont recall much in the way of gay women in the series, maybe it showed up more in the later books as I only made it to 7 or 8 I think. So I honestly cant argue on the whole lesbians are sexy inference as I didnt really get it. The closest I seem to recall was mainly things like the multiple ladies in rands life considering sharing and what that would mean. So more open to bisexuality. But like I said, its been years so I may have just zoomed past it.
    There's half a dozen or so references to Aes Sedai having been "pillow-friends" at some point, and in at least one case this is used politically (one character wants to renew the relationship because she now opposes the other woman who is far more powerful, and wants an opportunity to spy and plot). There's also a small subplot where a (married) Sea Folk woman working with Aes Sedai has a brief fling with one of them, which causes her to be a murder suspect (because she refuses to talk about what she was doing) and is later used as blackmail material against her once the situation is discovered (despite the Aes Sedai being absolutely baffled as to what the issue is).

    There's also a single depiction of a coercive relationship, to show how depraved a certain character is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    1) I dunno, it seems to me that the main reason for there being less of a variance between genders than between channelers of the same gender is due to less direct competition and also the fact that our main cast, of course, are all exceptional special snowflakes when it comes to their abilities, so like, rand is able to obliterate 6 women trying to keep him from channeling, (I cant remember the actual total when he got kidnapped then saved by his black tower making its debut) but cadasune was able to restrain him solo (didnt she have a terangreal or whatever they are called that helped with that? God its been so long) And of course egwyene and nyaneve were all way stronger than the average because the two rivers wasnt breeding channeling out of existence like most of the aes sedai inspected areas were. "Its the old blood of manatherian blah blah blah" To me, a lot of the description of how the power varied between genders was done to try and establish a balance between them. Neither side could do it all themselves, both sides had positives and negatives, and only by working together could they do anything REALLY impressive. That sort of thing. So getting rid of all that kind of undercuts the entire background lore of the world imo.
    No one is saying to get rid of "they accomplish the best things by working together" though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    3) I admit, I honestly dont recall much in the way of gay women in the series, maybe it showed up more in the later books as I only made it to 7 or 8 I think. So I honestly cant argue on the whole lesbians are sexy inference as I didnt really get it. The closest I seem to recall was mainly things like the multiple ladies in rands life considering sharing and what that would mean. So more open to bisexuality. But like I said, its been years so I may have just zoomed past it.
    If you have it in e-book format, search for "pillow friends", you'll find a bunch of examples. And that's just in the civilized lands, places like the Sea Folk and Aiel have it too (along with plenty of metaphysically enhanced polyamory) by different names.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yeah no. Not going to agree with that bit. In part since its barely given any sort of attention.
    Would be a lot easier to just keep it out of the story entirely. And move back to the epic struggle between dark and light.
    Getting rid of it entirely would be a miss too. Romance, past and present, was a big part of Siuan and Moiraine's dynamic even as far back as New Spring. Galina of course is the walking man-hater stereotype, but it does play perfectly into her toxic and overpowering nature and the "relationships" she forms with other AS. In particular, it's a major part of how Pevara and Seaine were able to trust each other enough to work together on the extremely dangerous task of rooting out the Black Ajah, and achieve more success in doing so than thousands of years of other AS trying, including freaking Cadsuane. In short, it's not just set dressing, it's very relevant to the narrative.

    As I recall too, Word of God from a blogpost was that his world "takes such things as a matter of course." Which is even more reason to show that, on both sides. Game of Thrones improved on the books by being more open about Loras x Renly too.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Thats as such not even bisexuality if your thinking of Rand's harem. Thats just a poly relationship.
    The references to actual gay womans were kinda subtle. Mostly a talk of pillow friends between the Aes Sedai. I have to confess that reference flew over my head the first time i read the books.
    Without getting too in-depth into this subtopic, I think the main character having a very visible and positive/stable poly relationship is a great thing too, and that should definitely make it to the show. (The plot relevance is important too, since their complicated Aiel poly-link has saved Rand's bacon more than once.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-05-31 at 01:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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