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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    What is it? Is hagrid a furry in a secret relationship with mcgonnagal? Did vernon actually marry petunia hoping for a magical child of his own and thats the real reason he hates harry so much? Maybe voldemort is actually a reincarnated saint who went insane when he learned he had magical powers that he believed came from the devil? Oh wait, I know, goblins actually are devout follows of the shinto faith! I seriously stopped listening to her a long time ago, she seemed to have this endless desire to constantly tweak her universe in odd directions with details that are never mentioned in any of her official works but since they usually arent contradicted it still fits.
    It has nothing to do with her HP universe, the tweets and comments Themrys and others are (I'm guessing) referring to are about Rowling's RL opinions regarding a certain group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I've read the series. every book, long ago. I don't have much of a good memory of it admittedly, but basically:

    all the women were the same woman.

    all the men were the same man.

    Man: I stare off into the distance contemplating how my life sucks, oh no I'm ta'veren woe is me, Stupid Aes Sedai, bothersome women, I'mma do my duty and go fight something like an idiot.
    Woman: Husband, conform to my bizarre cultural values. obey my every whim. you can't do anything without me. I'm going to nag you into oblivion about everything. I'm always right, you can't argue. haha you fell in love with me by me forcing myself into your life, just as keikaku.

    except for the Aiel who are instead:
    Aiel: I'm going to talking constantly about my nonsensical honor/shame system forever, your going to forget the specifics halfway through the series but I'll still never shut up about it so your just going to wonder what I'm even talking about.

    the entire series is nothing but the Henpecked Husband Trope played out on a big scale with fight scenes and political interludes. like at a certain point, you just realize that Robert Jordan is just writing variations of that over and over again halfway through and clearly doesn't know any other way a relationship like that can work. Wheel of Time: Henpecked Husband the Series.
    Yeah it's a little unfortunate that he wrote so many female characters to simply harangue their put-upon partners. One of the only counterexamples I can think of is
    Spoiler
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    Moiraine and Thom
    and that happens so late in the series that he might just not have had time for them to get to that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Another binary

    These are not the only two positions. Audiences being upset or not upset is certainly a major factor - but how major depends on the person doing the adapting. They may want critical as well as commercial acclaim, and adapt with that goal in mind - thinking not just of audience reactions but those of reviewers and awards organizations. They may have a personal stake. The owners of RJ's estate, like his widow, may have changed their own minds about what they want to see on screen.
    It seems like you are hoping that someone connected with the show happens to have the same particular problem with the books as you have, which strikes me as improbable*, although not impossible. But then you need for those persons to care enough to override other considerations (not alienating existing WoT fans by changing the story) and to have enough influence to overrule others (which is doubtful for several of the persons you listed).

    * I think it's improbable because I think that some people believe that gender is not binary, some people believe that there are only two genders, and a much larger number of people do not think much about it at all either way. So you'd need a person to be in that first group, then make the leap to the idea that is contrary to a non gender binary perspective (which requires them to follow your thought process that magic is not tied to a person's physical sex (in the way reproduction is), but instead to some other intangible aspect of them).

    1) Well, the "don't touch them" ship has sailed. Amazon is adapting them as we speak.
    I agree. You need to adapt a book for it to be on TV. And I think most audiences will accept that. But obviously there are degrees of adaption. You can go low risk and adapt only so much as is needed to make it a TV show, or go higher risk to change the story or the way the magic system works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    clearly she is a witch.
    People are certainly getting ready to burn her at the stake for this.

    Now, a series directed by a man might be able to get away with something more, so perhaps there is a chance for the series to be successful without changes, but I would not be so sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    It seems like you are hoping that someone connected with the show happens to have the same particular problem with the books as you have, which strikes me as improbable*, although not impossible. But then you need for those persons to care enough to override other considerations (not alienating existing WoT fans by changing the story) and to have enough influence to overrule others (which is doubtful for several of the persons you listed).
    Given that we no longer live in 1990, I'd say it's more likely than you think. Especially when you look at other modern fantasy shows and their growing non-binary representation - like She-Ra, Steven Universe, Dragon Prince, Doom Patrol and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I agree. You need to adapt a book for it to be on TV. And I think most audiences will accept that. But obviously there are degrees of adaption. You can go low risk and adapt only so much as is needed to make it a TV show, or go higher risk to change the story or the way the magic system works.
    I'm not as sure as you are that adapting RJ's 1990 vision with no updates at all is truly the "low-risk" option of the ones you present.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Given that we no longer live in 1990, I'd say it's more likely than you think. Especially when you look at other modern fantasy shows and their growing non-binary representation - like She-Ra, Steven Universe, Dragon Prince, Doom Patrol and others.
    How many of those were retellings of existing stories? I mean there are examples of programmes on TV aimed at any number of niche markets. It doesn't suggest that an existing story would be rewritten to focus on that niche.

    It's not the nineties, but the question is not whether most people are tolerant of trans people, or others who are non binary. The question is whether enough people are so invested in the issue that they would see the issues you do (which requires a few leaps of logic), and be motivated to take the risk of changing it, and have the power to persuade others to do so.

    Are we on the same page that a person would have to be really invested in the issue, see the WoT as problematic in the same way you do, be willing to that ahead of the commercial success of the series, and be in a position to influence it? If so, how likely do you think that is.

    I'm not as sure as you are that adapting RJ's 1990 vision with no updates at all is truly the "low-risk" option of the ones you present.
    I very clearly did not say no updates. Obviously some updates are necessary to adapt to TV.

    What are the risks you see of not making the sorts of changes that you are thinking of? Are you thinking of existing fans of the series choosing not to watch, or new fans not being attracted? Do you think people will find the existing story so controversial that they will refuse to tune in? Do you think the success or failures of other TV shows points to this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    How many of those were retellings of existing stories?
    It was an even split actually. Not seeing why that matters in any case - what they all have in common is being made to our current understanding/sensibilities, rather than those of three decades ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    It's not the nineties, but the question is not whether most people are tolerant of trans people, or others who are non binary. The question is whether enough people are so invested in the issue that they would see the issues you do (which requires a few leaps of logic), and be motivated to take the risk of changing it, and have the power to persuade others to do so.

    Are we on the same page that a person would have to be really invested in the issue, see the WoT as problematic in the same way you do, be willing to that ahead of the commercial success of the series, and be in a position to influence it? If so, how likely do you think that is.
    Let's assume you're right about the quantity of people for and against being the driving factor. Since we have no data one way or the other on that, there's no reason I can't express my hopes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    What are the risks you see of not making the sorts of changes that you are thinking of? Are you thinking of existing fans of the series choosing not to watch, or new fans not being attracted? Do you think people will find the existing story so controversial that they will refuse to tune in? Do you think the success or failures of other TV shows points to this?
    Well for starters, I personally think the success of shows like Steven Universe and She-Ra that purposefully include non-binary characters and queer representation means it won't hurt, provided they do it well.

    That of course leads to the other question, i.e. will leaving it out and doing a straight adaptation hurt. I genuinely don't know the answer to that. One indicator might be the reaction to JK Rowling as mentioned earlier (which again, I won't elaborate on here), but it's difficult to tell how that translates to viewership since her latest vehicle (the Fantastic Beasts series) is floundering for reasons completely unrelated to any representation issues in the work itself. So it's not really possible to answer this question in a vacuum - the shows that do well do so for a variety of reasons, as do the ones that do poorly.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-06-07 at 01:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    And the opinion for which they hate Rowling is not explicitly stated in the Harry Potter books, but can clearly be extrapolated from the fact that Gryffindor girl dorm stairs magically rejects boys.
    It has nothing to do with her HP universe, the tweets and comments Themrys and others are (I'm guessing) referring to are about Rowling's RL opinions regarding a certain group.
    When it needs to be extrapolated i start to get suspicious it in fact have anything to do with her books at all.
    And isnt about Rowlings RL opinion on whatever mess she is poking.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It was an even split actually. Not seeing why that matters in any case - what they all have in common is being made to our current understanding/sensibilities, rather than those of three decades ago.
    Well why it matters is pretty obvious. This thread is about adapting an existing book series to a TV show. The question is whether to tinker with it further. That is a very different kettle of fish from creating a new story. The difference is that the very reason for choosing to adapt an existing story instead of writing a new story (even one using the existing settings and or characters) is because it is a proven formula that people like. Changing that story undermines that reason. With a new story you don't have the same constraints.

    I am only familiar with She Ra which is a new story in an existing setting. Which of the other three is retelling an existing story?

    Let's assume you're right about the quantity of people for and against being the driving factor. Since we have no data one way or the other on that, there's no reason I can't express my hopes.
    Oh yes, of course you can express your preferences or hopes. Nothing wrong with that. I suppose I am just thinking it from the perspective of the studio.

    We don't have any data about for or against or neutral (you forgot that one - it is probably the biggest) - although the people making the show probably do.

    But, even without data we can make estimates based on our anecdotal observations. I think we can both agree on that basis that for more than half the population, the question of "How well does this story reflect the idea that gender is not binary?" would not be the first thing that comes to mind?

    Well for starters, I personally think the success of shows like Steven Universe and She-Ra that purposefully include non-binary characters and queer representation means it won't hurt, provided they do it well.
    Of course. It's a great endorsement of the market that it will produce things to cater for all people and all niches. I think it's great that there's a significant amount of content available for people who want to see trans characters. I am sure there is also a lot of media that caters to people who prefer that it not confront gender issues.

    I suppose it depends what we are discussing in terms of a TV adaption. Are we talking about a cartoon adaption that is aimed at a niche audience? If so, then yes, a WoT adaption that changes the stories to meet the desires of certain target markets might well be successful. With something like She Ra, it might even make it more successful, because it generates interest from a queer audience for the very reason it has queer characters, whereas it might otherwise have not generated much interest.

    But I had thought we were talking about a much more expensive live action adaption aimed at a mainstream audience? If so, I don't think it is at all comparable to lower cost products aimed at niche markets.

    That of course leads to the other question, i.e. will leaving it out and doing a straight adaptation hurt. I genuinely don't know the answer to that. One indicator might be the reaction to JK Rowling as mentioned earlier (which again, I won't elaborate on here), but it's difficult to tell how that translates to viewership since her latest vehicle (the Fantastic Beasts series) is floundering for reasons completely unrelated to any representation issues in the work itself. So it's not really possible to answer this question in a vacuum - the shows that do well do so for a variety of reasons, as do the ones that do poorly.
    I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that the fact that Fantastic Beasts is failing does not relate to the fact it has queer characters? You may be right, but I'm not sure how that relates.

    For one thing Fantastic Beasts is not an adaption of a popular book series. Harry Potter is. The Harry Potter movies were a pretty faithful retelling of the Harry Potter books and were successful. They did not suffer in any way from not adding queer characters. Nor did other recent examples of adaptions such as LotR/Hobbit. Game of Thrones is an especially good example, because it was very successful and well received for all the seasons which it remained relatively faithful to the books, and then when it departed from the books (because they had not yet been written) it is widely regarded as having gone downhill. For that GoT departing from the books was a risk, and that risk was realised.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    When it needs to be extrapolated i start to get suspicious it in fact have anything to do with her books at all.
    And isnt about Rowlings RL opinion on whatever mess she is poking.
    What is the JK Rowling controversy that people are talking about? I'm afraid I missed it.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-06-07 at 03:50 AM.

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    To my understanding, people took offense to Rowling sympathizing with what they perceived as trans-exclusive feminism. They then went mining the books for more things to take offense to, years after the fact. There was no notable controversy about this back when the books were published, or even when the movies were published.

    To take a simila case that I know better: people have recently taken offense to and loudly denounced H.P. Lovecraft's works due to the man's racism. This, despite the fact that the man is long gone, his works are (IIRC) in public domain, his most famous novellas barely include or even reflect his views, and most of his fans like his works for unrelated reasons and neither share nor replicate his views in their derivarive works.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    To my understanding, people took offense to Rowling sympathizing with what they perceived as trans-exclusive feminism. They then went mining the books for more things to take offense to, years after the fact. There was no notable controversy about this back when the books were published, or even when the movies were published.

    To take a simila case that I know better: people have recently taken offense to and loudly denounced H.P. Lovecraft's works due to the man's racism. This, despite the fact that the man is long gone, his works are (IIRC) in public domain, his most famous novellas barely include or even reflect his views, and most of his fans like his works for unrelated reasons and neither share nor replicate his views in their derivarive works.
    Thanks!

    So the crux of it arises from things Rowling has said publicly, rather than from anything she has published? If so, I'm not sure how it is relevant to anything in this thread.

    Although it is off-topic, I often wonder how much effect these sorts of controversies actually have. Sometimes it seems that a lot of noise is made by a small number of people with a disproportionate voice, but it doesn't reflect general sentiment.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-06-07 at 06:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    W

    It is getting mad the Starship Trooper film of Paul Verhoeven and Edward Neumeier Satires the original novel by Robert A. Heinlein.
    That it satirises the book is way, way down on the list of problems people have with the movie. Of course it is hard to satirise something you have never read - yeah, Verhoeven never read the book. He went on what he thought it was about, which is a cray way to do an adaption. And it kind of shows that he never read it as the plot in the book and the plot in the movie have basically nothing on common. And that was a result of them having actual worked on a film script called something cheesy like Bug Hunt on Planet Nine. When they heard the rights for the book were available, they bought it, changed a few names in the plot and pretty much called it a day.

    If they had actually read the book, they'd have known the main character was actually Filipino, not some Aryan poster child.

    And the biggest complaint people have is that it removed the defining feature of the troopers in the book - the power armour. Taking that out is like trying to do an adaption of WoT and remove the magic system all together.

    SST the movie is a fun, cheesy D-grade movie (and I even own the straight-to-DVD sequels) but it kind of it a poster child of how not to do an adaption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    To my understanding, people took offense to Rowling sympathizing with what they perceived as trans-exclusive feminism. They then went mining the books for more things to take offense to, years after the fact. There was no notable controversy about this back when the books were published, or even when the movies were published.

    There wasn't, because Rowling's opinions were considered perfectly normal and uncontroversial at the time.

    I would say it is pretty clear from her books that she believes women and girls exist (they do in the books!) and have a right to privacy and dignity.

    It is not so much people going back and mining the books for things to take offense to, it is that they probably would have taken offense the first time round if they had paid attention.


    A bit like in The Hunger Games, there was a cute little girl character who was described in the book as being black, but then the movie came out and she was actually played by a black actress, and then there were complaints.

    Some people just don't pay attention when reading and fill the gaps with imagination.


    The Wheel of Time would probably not have that exact problem, since the "there's differences between the sexes and they actually matter" vibe seems to be extremely obvious, but I could see it not getting as successful as GoT, considering that many, many of the people who are total fans of GoT never even read the ASOIAF series.

    @Liquor Box: The thing with very vocal minorities is that if no one contradicts them, it looks like they are majorities. For the average person who just reads the news, it is hard to determine the difference.
    That's why it would (will?) be so interesting to see how successful the Wheel of Time adaptation is. Money doesn't lie.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2020-06-07 at 08:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    That's why it would (will?) be so interesting to see how successful the Wheel of Time adaptation is. Money doesn't lie.
    ... well it might be interesting, it is possible that the adaption (regardless of how it is intended to be adapted) will merely be bad, dull acting, bad sets design, poor effects etc will likely have much more impact on success then whatever changes to the story/world the adaption might or might not make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Although it is off-topic, I often wonder how much effect these sorts of controversies actually have. Sometimes it seems that a lot of noise is made by a small number of people with a disproportionate voice, but it doesn't reflect general sentiment.
    They follow the Pareto principle. 20% of people make 80% of noise and 20% of noise creates 80% of responses.

    So pretty much regardless of what the topic of the day is, a minority of people will be the loudest and majority of their arguments end up not influencing anything.

    Death threats are a perfect example: only a small number of dissatisfied fans actually make them, with most of them never even intending to go through with them... but since threats of extreme violence are being taken seriously by those threatened, they have disproportionate effects on mental well-being and actions of the threatened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    They follow the Pareto principle. 20% of people make 80% of noise and 20% of noise creates 80% of responses.

    So pretty much regardless of what the topic of the day is, a minority of people will be the loudest and majority of their arguments end up not influencing anything.

    Death threats are a perfect example: only a small number of dissatisfied fans actually make them, with most of them never even intending to go through with them... but since threats of extreme violence are being taken seriously by those threatened, they have disproportionate effects on mental well-being and actions of the threatened.
    Ive been a fan of fanfiction.net for like, 10-15 years now, and I have to agree with this. I cant count how many authors who have made tearful posts that they are suspending their stories and deleting their accounts because despite having literally thousands of positive reviews, a handful of vile trolls saying the most hateful things they can destroyed their enjoyment of writing fanfic. Its awful how this tiny minority of garbage people can have such an outsized effect on others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    To my understanding, people took offense to Rowling sympathizing with what they perceived as trans-exclusive feminism. They then went mining the books for more things to take offense to, years after the fact. There was no notable controversy about this back when the books were published, or even when the movies were published.

    To take a simila case that I know better: people have recently taken offense to and loudly denounced H.P. Lovecraft's works due to the man's racism. This, despite the fact that the man is long gone, his works are (IIRC) in public domain, his most famous novellas barely include or even reflect his views, and most of his fans like his works for unrelated reasons and neither share nor replicate his views in their derivarive works.
    trans-exclusionary feminism, not trans exclusive feminism. I think those two words have different suggestive meanings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    trans-exclusionary feminism, not trans exclusive feminism. I think those two words have different suggestive meanings.
    Yeah i think exclusive kind of has the whole inflammable dynamic going on for its meaning. Or maybe not as I think it could be used for both meanings rather than just one. probably due to its root of exclude. (Not sure if root is the right term) So it could mean excludes trans feminism or excludes everyone BUT trans feminism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Linguistically, yes. But 'exclusive' is the term generally used to describe the movement in question, even if it's not grammatically kosher.

    Regardless, this divergence is dragging the thread even deeper into real-world politics than it already was and should probably be laid to rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I am only familiar with She Ra which is a new story in an existing setting. Which of the other three is retelling an existing story?
    Doom Patrol was a 1963 comic book before it became a TV show.
    And If you want another adaptation example - Umbrella Academy added genderfluidity and queerness that wasn't present in its source material either, without hurting its popularity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    We don't have any data about for or against or neutral (you forgot that one - it is probably the biggest) - although the people making the show probably do.
    I didn't mention neutral because then it will likely just come down to what the showrunner feels like doing. Again, with the five examples (three being adaptations) I mentioned previously, somebody made the decision that audiences would either enjoy the portrayals or not care much. I think the same could happen here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    But, even without data we can make estimates based on our anecdotal observations. I think we can both agree on that basis that for more than half the population, the question of "How well does this story reflect the idea that gender is not binary?" would not be the first thing that comes to mind?
    What "first" comes to mind for anyone isn't relevant to me, so long as it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    But I had thought we were talking about a much more expensive live action adaption aimed at a mainstream audience? If so, I don't think it is at all comparable to lower cost products aimed at niche markets.
    Pretty sure every property I listed was released on a major network, not a "niche market."

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    What is the JK Rowling controversy that people are talking about? I'm afraid I missed it.
    As Glyphstone helpfully suggested, I'm leaving this well alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Doom Patrol was a 1963 comic book before it became a TV show.
    And If you want another adaptation example - Umbrella Academy added genderfluidity and queerness that wasn't present in its source material either, without hurting its popularity.
    Hold on - are these examples of a story from a book (I guess a comic book counts) being retold with adaptions to make way for trans or genderfluid characters? Or are these whole new stories that are set in an established world, drawing on some established characters, like She-Ra. Because the second is not the same thing.

    Again, the very reason for choosing to adapt an existing story instead of writing a new story (even one using the existing settings and or characters) is because it is a proven formula that people like. Changing that story undermines that reason. With a new story (even one using the existing settings and or characters) you don't have the same constraints.

    Of the five stories you mention, how many are retellings of the original story, rather than something that is a complete rewrite?

    I didn't mention neutral because then it will likely just come down to what the showrunner feels like doing. Again, with the five examples (three being adaptations) I mentioned previously, somebody made the decision that audiences would either enjoy the portrayals or not care much. I think the same could happen here.
    Well I thought we were talking about whether it was probable that the showrunner would be motivated to put aside commercial concerns and insert trans characters for their own reasons. A showrunner who is neutral on gender issues would not be motivated to make those changes.

    As noted above, I'm not sure you have three or five examples of a story being adapted this way, because She-Ra is not a retelling of the original story, it's a new story. That makes me wonder if you other examples are either? Anyway, we deal with why those are very different below.

    What "first" comes to mind for anyone isn't relevant to me, so long as it does.
    I thought the intent of the question was obvious. But let's rephrase to clear up any ambiguity - do you disagree that the question of "How well does this story reflect the idea that gender is not binary?" would not be amongst the highest priorities for most of the population?

    Worth repeating where this point came from, because it can get lost in these types of threads - we were talking about it in the context of showrunners, rather than audiences. Although I suppose it could apply for audiences as well.

    Pretty sure every property I listed was released on a major network, not a "niche market."
    So what? There are lots of things aimed at niche markets on major networks. For example there are Korean langauge programmes on Netflix in English speaking countries - they are clearly aimed at a niche market despite being on a major network.

    Do you think that a television adaption of WoT would be considered successful if it has the same profile and number of viewers as the likes of She-Ra or Dragon Prince? Or do you think it would be shooting for the sort of success of a GoT or a Harry Potter?

    As Glyphstone helpfully suggested, I'm leaving this well alone.
    No problem, it has been pretty comprehensively answered by others. it seems clear that it is not relevant to the discussion of a WoT adaption anyway (unless perhaps we were thinking Rowling would write it).


    One thread of our discussion seems to have got lost - where you suggested that there might be some risk in not adapting. Do you still maintain that there's a risk from simply retelling the same story (with necessary adaptions for TV)? If so, based on what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Hold on - are these examples of a story from a book (I guess a comic book counts) being retold with adaptions to make way for trans or genderfluid characters? Or are these whole new stories that are set in an established world, drawing on some established characters, like She-Ra?
    I neither know, nor care, the extent to which the stories were changed from their originals. What matters to me is that someone in our era with the rights to adapt the property decided these elements were worth including today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I thought the intent of the question was obvious. But let's rephrase to clear up any ambiguity - do you disagree that the question of "How well does this story reflect the idea that gender is not binary?" would not be amongst the highest priorities for most of the population?
    I neither know, nor care, what the "highest priorities for most of the population" would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Well I thought we were talking about whether it was probable that the showrunner would be motivated to put aside commercial concerns and insert trans characters for their own reasons. A showrunner who is neutral on gender issues would not be motivated to make those changes.
    "Their own reasons" can include things like seeking critical acclaim or positive press. Those aren't wholly separate from commercial considerations of course, but you were never going to fully separate those anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    So what? There are lots of things aimed at niche markets on major networks. For example there are Korean langauge programmes on Netflix in English speaking countries - they are clearly aimed at a niche market despite being on a major network.
    How do you define "niche?" Which of the example properties I listed do you think qualifies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Do you think that a television adaption of WoT would be considered successful if it has the same profile and number of viewers as the likes of She-Ra or Dragon Prince? Or do you think it would be shooting for the sort of success of a GoT or a Harry Potter?
    Even if we assume those two degrees of success are different enough to matter, do you have some way of knowing that doing this would cause them to go from one to the other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    One thread of our discussion seems to have got lost - where you suggested that there might be some risk in not adapting. Do you still maintain that there's a risk from simply retelling the same story (with necessary adaptions for TV)? If so, based on what?
    Based on the fact that it's not 1990 anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I neither know, nor care, the extent to which the stories were changed from their originals. What matters to me is that someone in our era with the rights to adapt the property decided these elements were worth including today.
    I appreciate that's what matters to you. It's relevant if the point is whether anyone in this day and age would tell a story with queer characters.

    But we are presently discussing adapting an existing story by tweaking the way it deals with sexuality. None of the shows you have referenced is an example of that.

    I neither know, nor care, what the "highest priorities for most of the population" would be.
    Well you may not (although its odd if you care about non-binary gender tolerance that you don't care if any others prioritise it). But whether you care about it or not, I think it is very relevant to your earlier comment suggesting that it's not improbable that some showrunners will be willing to put aside commercial concerns to create the sort of thing you want to see?

    "Their own reasons" can include things like seeking critical acclaim or positive press. Those aren't wholly separate from commercial considerations of course, but you were never going to fully separate those anyway.
    What makes you think that changing the way WoT deals with gender is makes it more likely to attract critical acclaim? Do you mean acclaim from fringe critics, or from mainstream?

    Again, GoT is an example of a recent book adaption that won critical acclaim for relatively faithfully following the books, and then less acclaim as it departed from the book (because the later books are unwritten).

    How do you define "niche?" Which of the example properties I listed do you think qualifies?
    By contrast to mainstream. A mainstream production is designed to appeal to a broad cross section of the viewing public, and will seek to not offend (or where it does, offend as few people as possible). A niche production targets a particular audience, and is sometimes able to get away with more because it is directed at a narrower market.

    But we don't need to look at it in terms of niches if you think those are ill-defined. Instead we can simply say that the audience of She-Ra would probably not be sufficient to make a reasonably high budget adaption of WoT successful. Instead the model should be LotR or Narnia or something like that.

    Even if we assume those two degrees of success are different enough to matter, do you have some way of knowing that doing this would cause them to go from one to the other?
    I'm not sure if I understand the assumption you are getting at. Are you hinting that it is an unfounded assumption on my part that Dragon Prince did not attain the same commercial success than GoT?

    I also don't really understand your question - Do i know if doing what would cause what to go to what? Sorry, sometimes context gets lost, and I'm struggling with your question here.

    Based on the fact that it's not 1990 anymore.
    So you think there's a risk in adapting the books because it is not 1990? GoT was a very recent book adaption, and didn't change the way the story dealt with gender. Narnia was an adaption of books from the 50s and was successful despite not changing the way they dealt with gender. So, based on the evidence, I don't think there is any real risk from not tweaking WoT.



    Psyren, I sense you are not so keen on engaging on these issues, and I note that a few other people have called you out in the last few pages for disengaging/not answering questions..

    Is it because the conversation is going down tracks which you are not particularly interested in discussing? It seemed to me that you had brought up the discussion of whether showrunners might choose to change the books for their own reasons. But is it the case that you'd simply prefer to discuss how the story could be rewritten to reflect the narrative on gender issues that you would personally prefer with others who share that preference, without discussion of whether making the changes at all is a good idea, or realistic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well for starters, I personally think the success of shows like Steven Universe and She-Ra that purposefully include non-binary characters and queer representation means it won't hurt, provided they do it well.
    I would not attempt to extrapolate success from shows like those. It's hard to get numbers for She-Ra, since it's on Netflix and they aren't real open. But Stephen Universe pulled about 10% of the audience that Game of Thrones did - if GoT had that size audience, it wouldn't have made it. Success for an animated TV show on basic cable is defined so much differently than success for a live action show on premium cable, or networks or streaming, that it is hard to use one as an indicator of another.
    This is not to say that altering the books for an adaptation is a bad idea, it is simply saying that there are radically different metrics of success when you consider animated vs live action, and between the different streaming services like Netflix and DC Universe, and even bigger ones between basic cable, premium cable, and broadcast TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    I would not attempt to extrapolate success from shows like those. It's hard to get numbers for She-Ra, since it's on Netflix and they aren't real open. But Stephen Universe pulled about 10% of the audience that Game of Thrones did - if GoT had that size audience, it wouldn't have made it. Success for an animated TV show on basic cable is defined so much differently than success for a live action show on premium cable, or networks or streaming, that it is hard to use one as an indicator of another.
    This is not to say that altering the books for an adaptation is a bad idea, it is simply saying that there are radically different metrics of success when you consider animated vs live action, and between the different streaming services like Netflix and DC Universe, and even bigger ones between basic cable, premium cable, and broadcast TV.
    Would Umbrella Academy numbers be good enough? I think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Would Umbrella Academy numbers be good enough? I think so.
    It depends on what "good enough" means, and this may be highly dependent on how much the series costs to produce. Umbrella Academy's numbers appear to have been 'good enough' for it, given that it was renewed for a second season, but I suspect they would not have been 'good enough' for GoT with its much higher production budget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    It depends on what "good enough" means, and this may be highly dependent on how much the series costs to produce. Umbrella Academy's numbers appear to have been 'good enough' for it, given that it was renewed for a second season, but I suspect they would not have been 'good enough' for GoT with its much higher production budget.
    Sure. but we have no way of knowing how much Wheel of Time will cost.
    (Also, a Game of Thrones-style epic was a much bigger gamble before - well, Game of Thrones.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Would Umbrella Academy numbers be good enough? I think so.
    What do you mean by UA's numbers? The article said that 45 million viewers "sampled" it. That could mean a lot of different things, one end of which being that many people watched the trailer that was automatically popping up, or it could mean people who watched an episode or more. And according to this article, Netflix considers watching 2 minutes of a show to be watching the episode.
    AIUI, Netflix and others use the metric of first views. This is the number of new subscribers who watch a given show as the first thing they do. Because of this, it doesn't matter if people who already subscribe watch something, just whether new people are signing up to watch it. (I believe this is why Netflix almost never goes past three seasons on a show.) Even if everyone currently signed up for Netflix watches a new show, if no one new subscribes and watches it first, Netflix would consider it a failure, or at least, not as much of a success as a show that no current subscribers watch but brings in 10k new subscribers that watch it first. I think Amazon is similar in what they do, but they have a whole thing about it also driving people to shop more from Amazon, and I don't know exactly how that all works out.
    But let's just consider the general Netflix model. For WoT to be a success, it has to bring in new subscribers. One could look at it as it being easier to bring in new subscribers by faithfully adapting something, as the fans of the book will be more likely to sign up. But it could as easily be argued that buzz around it is more important, because you want to try to draw in people who haven't heard of it before. In that case, upsetting the purists might be the better plan, because they could cause a stink on the internet, and cause other people to become aware. I have no idea what the calculation behind that is, but I'm going to assume the people Amazon pays to make these decisions have some way to determine what to do. They could easily decide wrong, but they have more info than me.
    Ultimately, though, if I had to guess, I'd say that if as many people watch this as watched the Umbrella Academy, it would work out that everyone at Amazon would be happy about it. And again, I am not saying that they shouldn't change it. I don't really care about the series - I read it, but after book three it's all pretty much a blur. I think the entire series is incredibly bloated, and could have used an editor to cut it down to about 6 books (weren't there multiple chapters dedicated to Egwene taking a bath?). Any changes to streamline it would be welcome, as would any changes to make it less offensive to real world groups. I don't see a good reason why the duality has to be between men and women - yin and yang can encompass dualities between light/dark, shady/sunny, masculine/feminine, summer/winter, rise/fall, and so on. What the divide actually is doesn't seem to me to be as important as there being a divide, but again, I don't remember the books well enough at this point to refute those who say it has to be male/female. What I do know, though, is that at least some people in the world (not anyone here that I know of) would fight against changing it not because of true importance to the books, but for outside reasons, and those opinions can be safely discounted by people looking to make the series.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    I think the entire series is incredibly bloated, and could have used an editor to cut it down to about 6 books (weren't there multiple chapters dedicated to Egwene taking a bath?).
    While I agree that the series is bloated, this particular bit is just an urban legend. There's one scene where Elayne is taking a bath, which somehow was mythologized into a major element of her storyline.
    I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    But let's just consider the general Netflix model. For WoT to be a success, it has to bring in new subscribers. One could look at it as it being easier to bring in new subscribers by faithfully adapting something, as the fans of the book will be more likely to sign up. But it could as easily be argued that buzz around it is more important, because you want to try to draw in people who haven't heard of it before. In that case, upsetting the purists might be the better plan, because they could cause a stink on the internet, and cause other people to become aware. I have no idea what the calculation behind that is, but I'm going to assume the people Amazon pays to make these decisions have some way to determine what to do. They could easily decide wrong, but they have more info than me.
    While you're correct about controversy from the purists potentially being a good thing, the rest of this is oversimplified. New subscribers are a success factor for a streaming property sure, but there's also merchandising, licensing (including tie-ins from other media like console games, mobile games, theatrical releases, tabletop etc), spin-off shows (much easier with a finished product since they know the entirety of established canon - so we could get a Trolloc Wars/Manetheren spinoff, War of the Hundred Years spinoff, Age of Legends spinoff, Breaking of the World spinoff, Travels of Jain Farstrider spinoff etc), and of course any actors or showrunners that take off can be used to drive attention to lesser known properties on the service; if HBO casts the likes of Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau or Maisie Williams in literally any property in the future there will be some degree of interest. There's a lot of potential for lucre here beyond simple eyeballs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    Ultimately, though, if I had to guess, I'd say that if as many people watch this as watched the Umbrella Academy, it would work out that everyone at Amazon would be happy about it. And again, I am not saying that they shouldn't change it. I don't really care about the series - I read it, but after book three it's all pretty much a blur. I think the entire series is incredibly bloated, and could have used an editor to cut it down to about 6 books (weren't there multiple chapters dedicated to Egwene taking a bath?). Any changes to streamline it would be welcome, as would any changes to make it less offensive to real world groups. I don't see a good reason why the duality has to be between men and women - yin and yang can encompass dualities between light/dark, shady/sunny, masculine/feminine, summer/winter, rise/fall, and so on. What the divide actually is doesn't seem to me to be as important as there being a divide, but again, I don't remember the books well enough at this point to refute those who say it has to be male/female. What I do know, though, is that at least some people in the world (not anyone here that I know of) would fight against changing it not because of true importance to the books, but for outside reasons, and those opinions can be safely discounted by people looking to make the series.
    A lot of this summarizes the point I've been making.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    While I agree that the series is bloated, this particular bit is just an urban legend. There's one scene where Elayne is taking a bath, which somehow was mythologized into a major element of her storyline.
    There are certainly pages and pages of dress descriptions that wouldn't translate well to screen. And some of the characters' shock over the more form-fitting dresses feels like it probably wouldn't have aged well by the time they're put on screen too. None of that would be offensive, just dated and unnecessary, so it could be trimmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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