Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[lilpest]

If you were in charge of modernizing/adapting Wheel of Time

I'd advise whoever had the idea to "modernize" an absolute classic to find somewhere to shove that idea. Have you seen the Foundation on Amazon Prime or whatever? An adaptation should be exactly that, presenting the work as is in another medium. Its one thing when a manga/LN is still ongoing and the anime has to make up an ending, this is something else entirely.

[Psyren]

I'd advise whoever had the idea to "modernize" an absolute classic to find somewhere to shove that idea. Have you seen the Foundation on Amazon Prime or whatever? An adaptation should be exactly that, presenting the work as is in another medium. Its one thing when a manga/LN is still ongoing and the anime has to make up an ending, this is something else entirely.

If you like Amazon adaptations then you're in luck - but if you're holding out for "as-is" then I think that ship sailed with the casting.

[Rynjin]

If you like Amazon adaptations then you're in luck - but if you're holding out for "as-is" then I think that ship sailed with the casting.

Not really. I don't doubt things will be changed up, but the casting really isn't an indicator of a whole lot, given how diverse the world is anyway. It's one of the advantages of the WoT setting being a veiled postapocalyptic version of our world; the casting doesn't particularly matter in terms of appearance in most ways. The Sundering is a good excuse for all manner of racial diversity and changes almost nothing about the narrative. Exactly nothing, perhaps. Rand having Aiel features could still make him stand out in a relatively diverse area, and him looking different isn't like a huge point in any case. It's a vague hint as to his origins later and the source of some tiresome angst, but little else.

[Psyren]

Not really. I don't doubt things will be changed up, but the casting really isn't an indicator of a whole lot, given how diverse the world is anyway. It's one of the advantages of the WoT setting being a veiled postapocalyptic version of our world; the casting doesn't particularly matter in terms of appearance in most ways. The Sundering is a good excuse for all manner of racial diversity and changes almost nothing about the narrative. Exactly nothing, perhaps. Rand having Aiel features could still make him stand out in a relatively diverse area, and him looking different isn't like a huge point in any case. It's a vague hint as to his origins later and the source of some tiresome angst, but little else.

I highly doubt that will be the only difference from the books, but I suppose we'll see.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

You can absolutely live anywhere you want regardless of skin color, I'm not disputing that.

But a ginger people living in a desert for three thousand years is probably going to have some effects on their skin - again, purely as a counterpoint to the guy yelling about how this casting flies in the face of "realism."

In the real world, according to at least some research, it would take only a few thousand years to fully adapt a population's skin color, about 100 generations. That's without any existing adapted populations to intermingle with. The first part is the slowest, because you're basically waiting for mutations, but after about 40 generations changes would be visible.

I haven't read the book, I don't know how large this community is, how they use clothing and sunscreen or what kind of desert monster they feed all non-gingers to, but for realistic real world historic populations that's roughly the number.

However, whether the book is unrealistic or not, it still has its reasons for making these people ginger. As long as those reasons aren't plain old racism or something, I feel like following the book would be the standard choice. What would be the reason to change it? That it looks dumb until they explain the reasons? That too many places in this world are inhabited by white people?

[Anteros]

It might be because I haven't read the series in a long while, but wasn't Perrin consistently described as "swarthy" at the very least? Not a huge leap from there to make him black.

Everyone from Emond's Field except Rand is consistently described as dark or swarthy in reference to their brown hair/eyes.

It honestly would have made more sense from a casting perspective to just make everyone in Emond's Field except Rand black, except I'm sure they wanted to avoid a white savior trope.

Not really. I don't doubt things will be changed up, but the casting really isn't an indicator of a whole lot, given how diverse the world is anyway. It's one of the advantages of the WoT setting being a veiled postapocalyptic version of our world; the casting doesn't particularly matter in terms of appearance in most ways. The Sundering is a good excuse for all manner of racial diversity and changes almost nothing about the narrative. Exactly nothing, perhaps. Rand having Aiel features could still make him stand out in a relatively diverse area, and him looking different isn't like a huge point in any case. It's a vague hint as to his origins later and the source of some tiresome angst, but little else.

Considering that the single largest plot point in the entire series is

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Rand slowly going insane due to his sense of isolation

cutting out the "tiresome angst" related to it is rather missing the point.

[Rynjin]

Everyone from Emond's Field except Rand is consistently described as dark or swarthy in reference to their brown hair/eyes.

It honestly would have made more sense from a casting perspective to just make everyone in Emond's Field except Rand black, except I'm sure they wanted to avoid a white savior trope.



Considering that the single largest plot point in the entire series is

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Rand slowly going insane due to his sense of isolation

cutting out the "tiresome angst" related to it is rather missing the point.

His sense of isolation stems from a whole lot more than him looking different from the people in his village. By that point he has PTSD from various events and constant hallucinations fueling that, the Emond's Field stuff is never brought up again IIRC.

[Psyren]

In the real world, according to at least some research, it would take only a few thousand years to fully adapt a population's skin color, about 100 generations. That's without any existing adapted populations to intermingle with. The first part is the slowest, because you're basically waiting for mutations, but after about 40 generations changes would be visible.

I haven't read the book, I don't know how large this community is, how they use clothing and sunscreen or what kind of desert monster they feed all non-gingers to, but for realistic real world historic populations that's roughly the number.

However, whether the book is unrealistic or not, it still has its reasons for making these people ginger. As long as those reasons aren't plain old racism or something, I feel like following the book would be the standard choice. What would be the reason to change it? That it looks dumb until they explain the reasons? That too many places in this world are inhabited by white people?

Once again, I'm not saying they should or shouldn't change the Aiel. I'm saying that "they put brown people in Emond's Field, muh realism" is a nonsensical complaint; that was the post I was originally responding to.

His sense of isolation stems from a whole lot more than him looking different from the people in his village. By that point he has PTSD from various events and constant hallucinations fueling that, the Emond's Field stuff is never brought up again IIRC.

Yeah, that. And also, the books did wallow in his angst a bit too much. I don't think anyone's saying cut it out, but slimming it down could be nice.

[A.A.King]

Once again, I'm not saying they should or shouldn't change the Aiel. I'm saying that "they put brown people in Emond's Field, muh realism" is a nonsensical complaint; that was the post I was originally responding to.

To be fair, this whole thread started with "the stories strictly adheres to binary gender, muh feelings" nonsensical complaint. You reap what you sow, don't you?

[Rodin]

RE: Padan Fain - I don't have a problem with him being racebent. Yes, he's a villain, and yes he's a pretty clear sendup of Gollum early in the series - but he becomes insanely powerful and gains considerable agency/influence as the series goes on. That agency and capability matter far more for any sort of representation than mere alignment.

Wow, I had never registered the Gollum -> Padan Fain link before. That's...actually kind of awesome.

I'm trying to think of weaselly black characters now, and I'm coming up blank. All the ones I can think of fit a similar mold - skinny white guy with unkempt hair and beady eyes. Wormtongue. Uriah Heep (Nicholas Lyndhurst version especially). Filch the Caretaker.

Making Padan Fain a black version of that character would be very different from the traditional Scary Black Man that has such a bad history in film.

----

I've also apparently been spelling and pronouncing Liandrin's name wrong for 30 years. I always thought it was Liadrin.

[Traab]

Wow, I had never registered the Gollum -> Padan Fain link before. That's...actually kind of awesome.

I'm trying to think of weaselly black characters now, and I'm coming up blank. All the ones I can think of fit a similar mold - skinny white guy with unkempt hair and beady eyes. Wormtongue. Uriah Heep (Nicholas Lyndhurst version especially). Filch the Caretaker.

Making Padan Fain a black version of that character would be very different from the traditional Scary Black Man that has such a bad history in film.

----

I've also apparently been spelling and pronouncing Liandrin's name wrong for 30 years. I always thought it was Liadrin.

Dont forget peter pettigrew. Better choice than filch as he was primarily nothing but an annoyance.

[Psyren]

Wow, I had never registered the Gollum -> Padan Fain link before. That's...actually kind of awesome.

Eye of the World and LotR have quite a few parallels. (Lots of differences too, but it's pretty clear that Jordan took inspiration from the latter.) Lan as Aragorn, Moiraine as Gandalf, the initial appearances of the Myrddraal to Nazgul (dark riders hounding the protagonists), Trollocs being brutish shocktroopers similar to orcs, Ogier drawing inspiration from Ents etc. WoT diverges from those roots pretty quickly though.

I've also apparently been spelling and pronouncing Liandrin's name wrong for 30 years. I always thought it was Liadrin.

I mispronounced "Aes Sedai", "Egwene", and "Nynaeve" for years as a child, so don't feel bad

[Rodin]

I mispronounced "Aes Sedai", "Egwene", and "Nynaeve" for years as a child, so don't feel bad

Pffft, I still mispronounce all of those.

Eh (as in Canada, eh?)-Say-Dee

Eh-weh-nee

Nih-nay-eve


I'm not changing! You can't make me!!!

(Okay, maybe Eyes Suhd-eye)

And Robert Jordan's pronunciation of Faile is just plain wrong.

[Battleship789]

Pffft, I still mispronounce all of those.

Eh (as in Canada, eh?)-Say-Dee

Eh-weh-nee

Nih-nay-eve


I'm not changing! You can't make me!!!

(Okay, maybe Eyes Suhd-eye)

And Robert Jordan's pronunciation of Faile is just plain wrong.

Ah, but does it compare to the Seanchan having Texas accents?

[InvisibleBison]

Ah, but does it compare to the Seanchan having Texas accents?

I really, really, really hope the adaptation keeps that. It would be hilarious.

[Psyren]

I really, really, really hope the adaptation keeps that. It would be hilarious.

Without getting political... a southern accent could be pretty apropos for that empire in particular.

[Saph]

. . . I'm not touching that last comment.

Probably makes sense to start a new thread at this point.

[Kitten Champion]

Personally, my view of the accents of Wheel of Time cultures has been based on the audiobooks by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer, where they do an admirable job dramatizing regional dialects.

For the show, it is one of the bigger elements of the series that we should be able to recognize where a character comes from by their accent without actively being told. They can't just go with the typical High Fantasy approach where it's just fantastic Britain everywhere.

[Rodin]

Personally, my view of the accents of Wheel of Time cultures has been based on the audiobooks by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer, where they do an admirable job dramatizing regional dialects.

For the show, it is one of the bigger elements of the series that we should be able to recognize where a character comes from by their accent without actively being told. They can't just go with the typical High Fantasy approach where it's just fantastic Britain everywhere.

I wouldn't be upset if they reduced the number of accents. The northern nations need to look and sound Oriental/Asian. Andor needs to be Fantasy English. Aiel and Seanchan need to have accents different from the rest of the world.

And that's it. Having proper accents would be great, but not all actors can do convincing accents. I'd rather no accents than painfully faked ones. Especially when Jordan himself doesn't match accents with dialect.

Take the Seanchan. I lived in Texas for nearly 20 years, and I can't imagine pronouncing it SHAWN-CHAWN. You only get there if you're doing a bad cowboy impression. The names they have for things don't work in a Texas accent. Raken and To'raken sound Japanese, while things like Grolm and Torm have European sounding names.

Making it sound natural in a TV show would be difficult.

[Razade]

I wouldn't be upset if they reduced the number of accents. The northern nations need to look and sound Oriental/Asian. Andor needs to be Fantasy English. Aiel and Seanchan need to have accents different from the rest of the world.

And that's it. Having proper accents would be great, but not all actors can do convincing accents. I'd rather no accents than painfully faked ones. Especially when Jordan himself doesn't match accents with dialect.

Take the Seanchan. I lived in Texas for nearly 20 years, and I can't imagine pronouncing it SHAWN-CHAWN. You only get there if you're doing a bad cowboy impression. The names they have for things don't work in a Texas accent. Raken and To'raken sound Japanese, while things like Grolm and Torm have European sounding names.

Making it sound natural in a TV show would be difficult.

I'm not even sure Raken sounds like anything coming out of Asian, least of all Japan. That sort of hard K like rack isn't something you see in Japanese words. Not to even broach how the English R works in Japanese to start with. The fantasy ' is also not something you see in Japanese and if Raken isn't something you'd see in Japanese of any regional dialect, appending a To' to it isn't going to make it any more Japanese. I know the Seanchan are modeled in appearance to the Japanese Empire but almost no words out of Seanchan look...Asiatic. Sul'Dam nor does demane. I think Jordan just thought all of the stuff sounded cool and wanted to, in his way, make a parallel between the Seanchan and a real world culture and decided Imperial was good enough.

[Seppl]

Considering that all other cultures in WoT are also a hodgepodge of various real cultures, we can assume that the mixture of Texan accent, Chinese clothing, Japanese words, etc. is quite intentional. The main theme of the world building is that everyone got wildly displaced during the breaking and the cultures that developed afterwards are combinations of whatever and whoever ended up in a certain place. and none of those match any of the cultures or stereotypes from our Age. Except maybe Andor that is Camelot-England to misdirect readers that this will be a typical medieval adventure novel.

[Psyren]

Personally, my view of the accents of Wheel of Time cultures has been based on the audiobooks by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer, where they do an admirable job dramatizing regional dialects.

For the show, it is one of the bigger elements of the series that we should be able to recognize where a character comes from by their accent without actively being told. They can't just go with the typical High Fantasy approach where it's just fantastic Britain everywhere.

Two good points there - I haven't listened to the audiobooks so I don't have that frame of reference for the accents, but recognizing accents by hearing them is pretty useful. Egwene's dream about Egeanin before she ever met her was one key aspect, because it foreshadowed her

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bonding her to replace Gawyn later, assuming they keep that.

Padan Fain's accent changing on a dime is also a useful signal to his gestalt madness, and even moreso since we won't be able to listen to any of his internal monologues so he'll probably have to be arguing with himself a few times instead.

I wouldn't be upset if they reduced the number of accents. The northern nations need to look and sound Oriental/Asian. Andor needs to be Fantasy English. Aiel and Seanchan need to have accents different from the rest of the world.

I'd agree with these general guidelines. And given that Lan's chosen actor is Korean-American they may very well be going with Bordelands/North =Wutai. It would also fit with the other aspects of Borderlander culture like the topknots, communal baths etc. (Interestingly, chopsticks ended up in Tarabon.)

Considering that all other cultures in WoT are also a hodgepodge of various real cultures, we can assume that the mixture of Texan accent, Chinese clothing, Japanese words, etc. is quite intentional. The main theme of the world building is that everyone got wildly displaced during the breaking and the cultures that developed afterwards are combinations of whatever and whoever ended up in a certain place. and none of those match any of the cultures or stereotypes from our Age. Except maybe Andor that is Camelot-England to misdirect readers that this will be a typical medieval adventure novel.

There are more parallels than that though. The Aiel's ji'e'toh is a pretty clear sendup of Bushido, and that is a big part of why they respect Borderlanders more than the "wetlanders" from southern nations. It also explains why they hold Lan in such high regard that he has his own nickname among them (and was so well-known that he survived his encounter with them in New Spring.) From their perspective, Borderlanders have lots of ji, and Lan has even more than the rest of them.

[snowblizz]

Just a note on some of the words been bandied about here. Sul'dam and damane are both Old Tongue, not Seanchan. I think Raken and To'raken may also be.

I don't speak Japanese so can't claim expertise but I do read a lot of history and consequently much samurai and I thoght Japanese came with a lot of hard Ks. But that's in text only admittedly, and ofc transcribed Japanese into English.


For fun, ji'e'toh is also Old Tongue.

That's one odd things though, there supposedly is an Old Tongue, no one really knows and speaks it, but it also has like no touchbase with the current Randland language it seems. And yet they all seem to understand eachother. Ie 3000 years is enough to create new languages. They only complain about accents. And Old Tongue I did always think of a bit like Latin in Europe would be, but unless the english in the books is just a "translation" of whatever debased language they use and we get some Old Tongue unfiltered the supposed connection makes not a lick of sense to me.


Actually it now strikes me. There has to be a randomizer wheel somewhere mimimcing how WoT cultures are built. Like one ring, accents, another "ethnicity", one clothes, food etc, and so on. And you spin that and see what result you get. Like:
*spin* *spin* *spin* *spin*
*chugchugchugchugchuuugdunk*
"Ok, we got:
*Looks like Irish
*Lives like desert nomads
*Native american culture
and
*Eat like aztecs
Who had that on their bingo card?"

[Seppl]

Everybody speaking roughly the same language (including the forsaken, who have been in prison for 3000 years) is probably a concession to being able to tell the story. And we are supposed to suspend our disbelieve about this because we do not want a story, that ends the moment our protagonists travel to another country. The "explanation" in universe would be that the world was more united around the time of Arthur Hawkwing, before they split into little kingdoms in the succession wars. Of course, that was still 1000 years ago and does not explain Aiel nor forsaken.

PS: I think the Sharans also speak the same language as the western kingdoms, despite being even more isolated than the Aiel. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills…

[Misery Esquire]

I feel like the Wheel of Time as a series of books is set the same as Lord of the Rings; someone in-universe (Loial) wrote them, and they're not going to bother writing out people's comments except as readable.

If there's a lingua franca, then most people will have a language in common. Even more to the point, lingua franca while colloquially meaning trading language also just meant "French", which is what most Europeans who had to travel knew aside from their own language. And Randland seems pretty cosmopolitan and travelled compared to Europe - people from all over end up in every village rather than transiting back and forth between cities, so it's not unreasonable for there to be articulate French (Westron, Common, whatever) wherever you go. Even supposedly highly isolated places like the Two Rivers trades enough that their tabac shows up across the continent - which means a steady stream of traders in it, who you have to be able to talk to.

You still wouldn't expect anyone who knew French to speak Latin*, despite being a descendant of it - French and Latin are also pretty messy to try and directly translate, just like "Common" to the Old Tongue.

It is extremely weird that Seanchan and Shara still speak it, though, what with their complete separation by ocean and desert/Aiel respectively.
Unless Sharans only speak it to Aiel and Sea Folk at the trade posts** and have their own language otherwise, and see the first point for why everything they say is understandable to us the reader.




*Technically nobles and priests should, but the nobles are lampshaded as being taught but not paying attention, and Randland has no priests. Unless you count Aes Sedai, who do mostly seem comfortable with the Old Tongue.
** And to Egewene, but channeler quasi-nobles who're leading an army alongside Demandred is hardly an unbiased sample.

[Psyren]

That's one odd things though, there supposedly is an Old Tongue, no one really knows and speaks it, but it also has like no touchbase with the current Randland language it seems. And yet they all seem to understand eachother. Ie 3000 years is enough to create new languages. They only complain about accents. And Old Tongue I did always think of a bit like Latin in Europe would be, but unless the english in the books is just a "translation" of whatever debased language they use and we get some Old Tongue unfiltered the supposed connection makes not a lick of sense to me.

Old Tongue is definitely a Latin expy. We're shown in TSR that nobles are expected to learn it, not for any practical reason but just to sound more learned among their peers. This is part of what allows Mat to befriend the young Tairen nobles so quickly, even if they weren't already trying to ingratiate themselves to anybody who was friends with Rand, and what helps Mat realize the random stuff coming out of his mouth isn't actually gibberish.

Actually it now strikes me. There has to be a randomizer wheel somewhere mimimcing how WoT cultures are built. Like one ring, accents, another "ethnicity", one clothes, food etc, and so on. And you spin that and see what result you get. Like:
*spin* *spin* *spin* *spin*
*chugchugchugchugchuuugdunk*
"Ok, we got:
*Looks like Irish
*Lives like desert nomads
*Native american culture
and
*Eat like aztecs
Who had that on their bingo card?"

I could definitely see RJ doing this for each of his cultures. He starts with a country (Illian is Italy if the capital were Venice, Tear is Spain with dashes of {insert authoritarian regime here} etc) and then begins stirring in details from 1-3 other cultures.

Everybody speaking roughly the same language (including the forsaken, who have been in prison for 3000 years) is probably a concession to being able to tell the story. And we are supposed to suspend our disbelieve about this because we do not want a story, that ends the moment our protagonists travel to another country. The "explanation" in universe would be that the world was more united around the time of Arthur Hawkwing, before they split into little kingdoms in the succession wars. Of course, that was still 1000 years ago and does not explain Aiel nor forsaken.

I don't mind the Forsaken speaking this world's language. On top of all being geniuses (well, academically anyway, they lack quite a bit of common sense) - needing to pick up this world's language gives them something to do in the beginning alongside assuming power over their respective nations, and keeps them out of the protagonists' hair while the heroes are extremely outclassed. A quick scene of them waking up with subtitles - we could even use Egwene's Dream about them for this where she doesn't know who they are - would be enough to establish them beginning to overcome the language barrier.

[Kitten Champion]

I think the Forsaken speaking the modern language can be explained easily with the fact that they simply learnt it sometime after being freed. They'd have to just to fulfill their various roles, and the period between their release and their appearance in the narrative is months or years.

I mean, that aspect of the story is ambiguous by design as their identities and role in the current age are a source of mystery and tension, but these are long-lived geniuses with Batman-esque prep-time were talking about.

As to the Aiel, while they maintain more of the Old Tongue - at least a certain understanding of it - especially in their esoteric terminology, they do interact with the main continent for trade and other things and it's mentioned that they particularly enjoy reading despite the assumption by the Wetlanders that they're uncultured barbarians.

Ninja'd, I guess.

[The Glyphstone]

I could definitely see RJ doing this for each of his cultures. He starts with a country (Illian is Italy if the capital were Venice, Tear is Spain with dashes of {insert authoritarian regime here} etc) and then begins stirring in details from 1-3 other cultures.

Heck, doing this is exactly how I do worldbuilding and I havent read WoT. I've got an Incan/Roman/Japanese fusion, an Arabian/Greek hybrid, a Scottish/Cambodian blend, and an Inuit/Scandanavian cross so far. It's a good way to make stuff familiar without resorting to blatant expies.

[Psyren]

As to the Aiel, while they maintain more of the Old Tongue - at least a certain understanding of it - especially in their esoteric terminology, they do interact with the main continent for trade and other things and it's mentioned that they particularly enjoy reading despite the assumption by the Wetlanders that they're uncultured barbarians.

Ninja'd, I guess.

Yeah that's my take on the Aiel as well. They are learned and cultured and well-read, largely as a subversion of their default perception as tribal savages. They ignored the library in Cairhien while burning everything else, and bookselling merchants are highly-prized and given favorable treatment as they cross the waste. Not to mention, their leadership all have to go back in time to the AoL anyway - presumably the ter'angreal translates but it's still more exposure than most nations get.

[Traab]

Yeah that's my take on the Aiel as well. They are learned and cultured and well-read, largely as a subversion of their default perception as tribal savages. They ignored the library in Cairhien while burning everything else, and bookselling merchants are highly-prized and given favorable treatment as they cross the waste. Not to mention, their leadership all have to go back in time to the AoL anyway - presumably the ter'angreal translates but it's still more exposure than most nations get.

The fact that they have a closer link to the past through the chiefs and wise women as well as their incredible devotion to what happened in their past, all would make them far more likely, as a race, to retain the older knowledge including language. Passing knowledge around between them is also likely considered very important BECAUSE they are living in the waste, an area where you cant just build libraries for all to enjoy but want to make sure knowledge isnt lost, so its taught to everyone (minus the super special knowledge the chiefs get) So again, they maintain more understanding of the age of legends because unlike the other races which likely focused more on survival than on tradition in the aftermath, they held to it tightly right up till the end.