Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Psyren]

The fact that they have a closer link to the past through the chiefs and wise women as well as their incredible devotion to what happened in their past, all would make them far more likely, as a race, to retain the older knowledge including language. Passing knowledge around between them is also likely considered very important BECAUSE they are living in the waste, an area where you cant just build libraries for all to enjoy but want to make sure knowledge isnt lost, so its taught to everyone (minus the super special knowledge the chiefs get) So again, they maintain more understanding of the age of legends because unlike the other races which likely focused more on survival than on tradition in the aftermath, they held to it tightly right up till the end.

Adding to this, they've maintained their study of dreamwalking, which is hands down the best source of divination in the setting. (Well, the Matrix is hella dangerous, but your personal dreamscape is fairly safe.)

[Psyren]

Bump with new info on Amazon's vehicle - casting is still going on, and apparently a new character not present in the books has just been cast, named "Dana." Speculation has ranged from "Dana" being:

1) A misspelling of Dena, a prominent side-character from Book 2 - I think casting for Book 2 already would be a bit odd personally
2) A gender-bent take on the whitecloak Dain Bornhald (I'm personally kinda hoping for this one)
3) An entirely new/composite character made for the show for narrative convenience.

The Grinwells have also been cast, which makes sense as this is one of the more prominent farms Rand and Mat crash at on their harrowing journey to Caemlyn - as well as their daughter showing up in Tar Valon as a novice, and implied to be fridged by Lanfear to use as her cover/disguise while sneaking around the Tower. Hopefully the show gives her a bit more justice than the books did.

[tiornys]

Else Grinwell was not "fridged". Fridging does not just refer to someone being killed offscreen. It's when they're killed offscreen to provide "cheap/lazy" anger/angst and motivation to a protagonist. In Else's case, basically no one knows that Lanfear killed her except us.

[Gnoman]

while killing Else would fit Lanfear's character (Else was interested in Rand, and Lanfear is jealous), this is never stated in the books, and the Wiki puts her as "alive". Lanfear impersonated her, but she appears to have genuinely gone to amd been expelled from the White Tower

[Psyren]

Interesting - it's not like a Forsaken to be slipshod and impersonate someone who might show up later, especially one as sociopathic as Lanfear, but I'll concede that Else might be alive.

[Traab]

I really hope they arent just creating a new character, war and peace needs extra characters more. As for #2, could be interesting, I cant remember, did these whitecloaks not have issues with women in general?

[tiornys]

while killing Else would fit Lanfear's character (Else was interested in Rand, and Lanfear is jealous), this is never stated in the books, and the Wiki puts her as "alive". Lanfear impersonated her, but she appears to have genuinely gone to amd been expelled from the White Tower

Oops, I got her mixed up with Sarah. You're right, Siuan says, "As for Else Grinwell. . . . I remember the girl. She could have learned, had she applied herself, but all she wanted was to smile at the men at the Warders’ practice yard. Else Grinwell was put on a trading vessel and sent back to her mother ten days ago." Past that I don't think we see her.

I really hope they arent just creating a new character, war and peace needs extra characters more. As for #2, could be interesting, I cant remember, did these whitecloaks not have issues with women in general?

All of the Whitecloaks were men but that's not unusual for a military body in the setting. They were extremely antagonistic towards Aes Sedai that I don't remember any particular venom against women in general.

[Traab]

Oops, I got her mixed up with Sarah. You're right, Siuan says, "As for Else Grinwell. . . . I remember the girl. She could have learned, had she applied herself, but all she wanted was to smile at the men at the Warders’ practice yard. Else Grinwell was put on a trading vessel and sent back to her mother ten days ago." Past that I don't think we see her.


All of the Whitecloaks were men but that's not unusual for a military body in the setting. They were extremely antagonistic towards Aes Sedai that I don't remember any particular venom against women in general.

Hmmm, considering the sheer number of women in power in this setting, the fact that the white cloaks had none at any part of their organization, not just the military portion of it, implies there was more to it than just "Girls cant fight!" On top of that, if they do this it will likely trigger a backlash from fans as a change for the sake of change. Im not saying it couldnt be made to work, im sure it could, but why gender bend a character in a series, especially one thats already got a rather massive selection of female characters? This isnt like ghost busters where the only women were the potential girlfriend and the secretary after all.

[Gnoman]

I suspect that the Whitecloaks had no women precisely because of their hatred of Aes Sedai. Going man-only means that no "witch" could possibly infiltrate, after all. From a Doylist perspective, Jordan likely intended their corruption to be an example of the "men and women should be working together" theme.

[InvisibleBison]

I suspect that the Whitecloaks had no women precisely because of their hatred of Aes Sedai. Going man-only means that no "witch" could possibly infiltrate, after all. From a Doylist perspective, Jordan likely intended their corruption to be an example of the "men and women should be working together" theme.

It probably had something to do with the fact that, in general, the militaries of the Westlands tended to be men-only.

[Anteros]

None of the Wetlander militaries had female warriors. The Aiel and Seanchan did, but they have drastically different cultures. Rand having to get over his cultural views about Wetlander women needing to be protected from combat is a pretty big plot point in the series.

Sometimes I wonder if the people throwing these types of criticisms at the series even read it at all, or if they just skimmed it to look for things to complain about. Otherwise I don't know how you can miss such obvious plot points. Yes, some characters have sexist views (against both genders). Some characters are also racist. Those views are always eventually shown to be misguided. The WoT is a series that's actually huge on promoting racial and gender equality if you actually pay attention to it instead of looking for things to complain about.

[Psyren]

Oops, I got her mixed up with Sarah. You're right, Siuan says, "As for Else Grinwell. . . . I remember the girl. She could have learned, had she applied herself, but all she wanted was to smile at the men at the Warders’ practice yard. Else Grinwell was put on a trading vessel and sent back to her mother ten days ago." Past that I don't think we see her.

Interesting, because Lanfear clearly saw her and figured she'd be a good disguise.

I forget the timeline of that sequence - was "10 days ago" while the Accepted Scooby Gang were returning from Toman Head, or had they been back in the Tower during that time?

All of the Whitecloaks were men but that's not unusual for a military body in the setting. They were extremely antagonistic towards Aes Sedai that I don't remember any particular venom against women in general.

I wouldn't mind them tweaking the Whitecloaks, though of course they would be pretty hard on any female applicants to make sure they couldn't channel. (Though presumably, they would also be cautious about male channelers getting in too.)

None of the Wetlander militaries had female warriors. The Aiel and Seanchan did, but they have drastically different cultures. Rand having to get over his cultural views about Wetlander women needing to be protected from combat is a pretty big plot point in the series.

Well, that cultural view can be narrowed to be Southern or even just Andoran without losing Rand's upbringing. For the women in places like the Borderlands to hang back in the kitchen while only the menfolk go fight all the Trollocs is pretty ludicrous.

[Traab]

It probably had something to do with the fact that, in general, the militaries of the Westlands tended to be men-only.

That too yes, but no women anywhere? Not even in administration type jobs? The whitecloaks werent just some mercenary band after all, they were a full on organization. I actually agree with the idea that there was likely a subtle "Aes Sedai cant infiltrate if its men only" vibe to them. It seems to be the sort of thing that they would have thought of as only darkfriends outranked aes sedai on their "DO NOT LIKE" list. And the idea of infiltration would have been an obvious one for the white tower to take advantage of if women could join in any capacity.

[Saph]

I actually agree with the idea that there was likely a subtle "Aes Sedai cant infiltrate if its men only" vibe to them. It seems to be the sort of thing that they would have thought of as only darkfriends outranked aes sedai on their "DO NOT LIKE" list. And the idea of infiltration would have been an obvious one for the white tower to take advantage of if women could join in any capacity.

It's absolutely that, yeah. There might be something to it, as well, since when you catch glimpses of the various Aes Sedai intelligence networks that you see throughout the series, nearly all of the agents are women. (I really love all the little ways in which Jordan tied his world together.)

[CharonsHelper]

Well, that cultural view can be narrowed to be Southern or even just Andoran without losing Rand's upbringing. For the women in places like the Borderlands to hang back in the kitchen while only the menfolk go fight all the Trollocs is pretty ludicrous.

Not really. Remember, the Trollocs aren't a one-time event where they need every man/woman/child. The Trollocs have been coming down out of The Blight for the last two thousand years since The Trolloc Wars.

From the perspective of keeping your populace going, it's not smart to have women be primary combatants. I actually did get the impression that the women from The Borderlands did generally get some combat training so that they could fight in a pinch, but not as front-line soldiers.

And frankly, as much as this isn't PC to say, when you're talking about muscle-based combat, VERY FEW women are going to be able to keep up with the average man in melee combat, or even with a longbow, since they just don't have the same draw-strength.

[Sapphire Guard]

The only Whitecloak not in the military we ever see is Balwer, they could easily have more.

Borderland women are trained to fight (at least, Faile was) but their policy for the random citizenry regardless of gender when fighting Trollocs is 'get the hell into the nearest castle'

Edit: If you're a human fighting Trollocs, you're always outmuscled anyway, unless you're on a horse.

[Psyren]

That too yes, but no women anywhere? Not even in administration type jobs? The whitecloaks werent just some mercenary band after all, they were a full on organization. I actually agree with the idea that there was likely a subtle "Aes Sedai cant infiltrate if its men only" vibe to them. It seems to be the sort of thing that they would have thought of as only darkfriends outranked aes sedai on their "DO NOT LIKE" list. And the idea of infiltration would have been an obvious one for the white tower to take advantage of if women could join in any capacity.

Not to mention, men who can channel are something they'd presumably need to worry about too. Certainly rarer, but a possibility over centuries.

Not really. Remember, the Trollocs aren't a one-time event where they need every man/woman/child. The Trollocs have been coming down out of The Blight for the last two thousand years since The Trolloc Wars.

From the perspective of keeping your populace going, it's not smart to have women be primary combatants. I actually did get the impression that the women from The Borderlands did generally get some combat training so that they could fight in a pinch, but not as front-line soldiers.

And frankly, as much as this isn't PC to say, when you're talking about muscle-based combat, VERY FEW women are going to be able to keep up with the average man in melee combat, or even with a longbow, since they just don't have the same draw-strength.

Yikes. From the implied brood-mare role to the myopic view of combat styles (even if we somehow believed women were somehow incapable of strength-based combat, Randland has many many more styles besides that - from dex-based swordplay to the knives Faile learned in Saldaea to archery etc)... Yeah, thank you for providing the perfect reason for them to make changes, right here.

Edit: If you're a human fighting Trollocs, you're always outmuscled anyway, unless you're on a horse.

Exactly - nowhere is "stick them with the pointy end" (I know, other series) more apropos.

[Rynjin]

Yikes. From the implied brood-mare role

It's a society constantly on the brink of destruction that is the last bastion between the world and annihilation by ravening hordes of beasts and raw corruption that blights the land. Yes, keeping your women safe so new generations can be raised to fight off the neverending threat to all humanity is smart. It's supposed to be "yikes", because there is literally nothing good about the situation. It's a medieval setting, and the Borderlands take all of those legitimate concerns about your people dying out because all the women of child-bearing age are dead and amps them to 11. That's good world building, which is the problem with a lot of your proposed changes in a nutshell; they make the worldbuilding actively weaker for no narrative value added whatsoever.

[Psyren]

It's a society constantly on the brink of destruction that is the last bastion between the world and annihilation by ravening hordes of beasts and raw corruption that blights the land. Yes, keeping your women safe so new generations can be raised to fight off the neverending threat to all humanity is smart. It's supposed to be "yikes", because there is literally nothing good about the situation. It's a medieval setting, and the Borderlands take all of those legitimate concerns about your people dying out because all the women of child-bearing age are dead and amps them to 11. That's good world building, which is the problem with a lot of your proposed changes in a nutshell; they make the worldbuilding actively weaker for no narrative value added whatsoever.

Putting aside that killing more trollocs helps the "new generations" as much as having children - the women who'd rather fight, and don't want children; where do they fit into your "worldbuilding?"

[Sapphire Guard]

Exactly - nowhere is "stick them with the pointy end" (I know, other series) more apropos.

More "never get in a fair fight if you can avoid it." If you're facing Trollocs alone, even if you have a sword,
hiding is probably your best option. There are several conversations about how people sometimes have to "Sheathe the Sword" as the best option rather than get taken alive.

"soldier" and "brood mare" are not the only available options. Borderlander noncombatants have many many duties beyond combat. When Trolloc raids happen, civilians go to the castles. Engaging Trollocs in swordfights is a last resort no one should try if they have another option.

[Rynjin]

Putting aside that killing more trollocs helps the "new generations" as much as having children - the women who'd rather fight, and don't want children; where do they fit into your "worldbuilding?"

About the same place they did in the actual world; they were social outcasts and pariahs. These are things that actually happened.

Or, maybe, as auxiliaries, as they are in the books. Your pick.

[Psyren]

About the same place they did in the actual world; they were social outcasts and pariahs. These are things that actually happened.

"X actually happened" is a poor reason for fiction to reinforce it unnecessarily.

[Rynjin]

"X actually happened" is a poor reason for fiction to reinforce it unnecessarily.

No, it's not. It's a specific storytelling choice that makes the world feel like a believable place, because people act like people have actually acted in the past in similar circumstances.

"I want everything in fiction to perfectly reflect current societal values regardless of actual context" is objectively bad storytelling, however.

[Psyren]

No, it's not. It's a specific storytelling choice that makes the world feel like a believable place, because people act like people have actually acted in the past in similar circumstances.

"I want everything in fiction to perfectly reflect current societal values regardless of actual context" is objectively bad storytelling, however.

The context is "trollocs eat everyone regardless of gender." HTH.

[Seppl]

The context is "trollocs eat everyone regardless of gender." HTH.

No, the context is a warfare in an early Renaissance setting. How many Renaissance societies had woman frontline soldiers? Why do you think they had not? Why do you think those reasons do not apply here?

You are (again) building a viking village with NYC demographics...

[Psyren]

No, the context is a warfare in an early Renaissance setting. How many Renaissance societies had woman frontline soldiers? Why do you think they had not? Why do you think those reasons do not apply here?

To hazard one small guess, a noticeable lack of Trollocs and Fades.

And how many "Renaissance societies" consisted of matriarchal countries like Andor, Manetheren, and the Tar Valon city state? "But history" cuts both ways.

[Morgaln]

Gender stereotypes are an overarching theme of Wheel of Time in general. If you remove them, you are removing a lot of what WoT is about in the first place. If you make women an equal part of Randland military, you take away the impact that learning about the Maidens of the Spear has. The Maidens of the Spear in general, and Aviendha specifically, are direct inspiration for Elayne to have an all-female Queen's Guard. Meaning, the concept of women in the military is something that gets introduced into Randland during the series; it's not missing from the plot, it's a plot point that is highlighting cultural exchange and the change Rand is bringing.
It also means you take away what's special about Birgitte; she's a female warror so legendary that she keeps being reborn and is known (although not recognized) by pretty much everyone; it's a common theme that she gets underestimated due to her gender. The interactions between her and Mat are great, because despite all the moaning about women in his viewpoints, he is very quick to appreciate her for her competence, regardless of gender. This is already teaching the message about equality and accepting people for who they are, it's just subtle and not on in your face.

If there's one thing I'd like them to change, it's Min. When we get introduced to Min, she deliberately isn't very feminine. As she falls in love with Rand, she starts to dress and act more feminine (wearing dresses, using make-up and perfume, that sort of thing) in an attempt to get his attention. I wish she wouldn't do that. I don't like the message that women need to change to attract men. Let her be who she is and Rand still fall in love with her.

[Seppl]

To hazard one small guess, a noticeable lack of Trollocs and Fades.

And how many "Renaissance societies" consisted of matriarchal countries like Andor, Manetheren, and the Tar Valon city state? "But history" cuts both ways.

That is certainly not the reason why melee based armies (and most modern armies, too!) employ exclusively men for the actual fighting.

I notice that all your suggestions have a few things in common. Let's use a little hyperbole so that you get how you sound to others: You suggest something like "All characters should have smartphones because that's modern!" but what you do not address when making such suggestions is:

1. What the existence of smartphones imply about society, technology, and infrastructure, and how this fits into the greater world.
2. How it would affect the plot if the characters were able to make phone calls.
3. How this relates to the overall message of the book of "people should talk more"

And then you are confused why people don't like the idea.

[Rodin]

My assumption with Borderlands women was that they filled the same role as Japanese naginata women. They didn't (usually) ride out with the men, but they were still fully trained fighters that would remain behind to fortify the castle against an unexpected attack. Those who were not fighters (of either gender) were still expected to be involved with the military in some capacity - making weapons and armor, supporting logistics, repairing the walls, etc etc.

Even with the inherent (and realistic) medieval sexism, the women were far from "brood mares." The Borderlands women we actually meet (Faile and her mother most prominently) would probably stab you somewhere sensitive if you even implied it.

Heck, even Andor was more progressive than real medieval life. Elayne is the female heir to the throne without being first-born. Her older brother Gawyn is only allowed to become top general of her armies, and he isn't in the line of succession at all. If I recall correctly, plenty of the noble houses were lead by women as well. Andor had a tradition of women with power, they just didn't have the same tradition militarily.

[CharonsHelper]

Yikes. From the implied brood-mare role to the myopic view of combat styles (even if we somehow believed women were somehow incapable of strength-based combat, Randland has many many more styles besides that - from dex-based swordplay to the knives Faile learned in Saldaea to archery etc)... Yeah, thank you for providing the perfect reason for them to make changes, right here.

I sure do love to be straw-manned as a bigot! (Is that a variation of Godwin's Law?)

And the female combatants are specifically called out as exceptions in The WoT.

Archery requires strength. They even mention that the bow that Faile uses in The Two Rivers is one for boys because she's not strong enough for the full version - but Perrin would never tell her that.

And purely "dex-based swordplay" is largely a D&D trope. Even rapier fighting requires a good bit of muscle strength to be done effectively.

Again - I specifically said that there are exceptions, both in The WoT and IRL, but they are just that, exceptions. They would lose a lot of the oomph to the plot if they weren't exceptions.