Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Psyren]

That is certainly not the reason why melee based armies (and most modern armies, too!) employ exclusively men for the actual fighting.

I notice that all your suggestions have a few things in common. Let's use a little hyperbole so that you get how you sound to others: You suggest something like "All characters should have smartphones because that's modern!" but what you do not address when making such suggestions is:

1. What the existence of smartphones imply about society, technology, and infrastructure, and how this fits into the greater world.
2. How it would affect the plot if the characters were able to make phone calls.
3. How this relates to the overall message of the book of "people should talk more"

And then you are confused why people don't like the idea.

1) I'm not advocating that the entirety of Randland needs to have female combatants. But it makes sense that the lands on the border with the literal land of evil monsters would use every resource at their disposal in that fight. It is an aspect of Jordan's original worldbuilding that I don't think he actively thought through. If for whatever reason you still need Rand to be all "whoa, women warriors, this is weird" - that's still quite doable because he grew up in the southern lands, places where Trollocs haven't been seen so long that many consider them to be children's stories, and that therefore have the luxury of culturally turning away able bodies and hands.

2) "Women can learn how to fight monsters too, especially over centuries of monster attacks" bears no rational equivalence whatsoever to "everyone should have smartphones."

My assumption with Borderlands women was that they filled the same role as Japanese naginata women. They didn't (usually) ride out with the men, but they were still fully trained fighters that would remain behind to fortify the castle against an unexpected attack. Those who were not fighters (of either gender) were still expected to be involved with the military in some capacity - making weapons and armor, supporting logistics, repairing the walls, etc etc.

I'd even see this as an improvement. But aside from Faile (who actively rejected her origins to become a Hunter) we never see it - despite getting rather detailed looks at Shienaran and Kandori culture among others.

Even with the inherent (and realistic) medieval sexism, the women were far from "brood mares." The Borderlands women we actually meet (Faile and her mother most prominently) would probably stab you somewhere sensitive if you even implied it.

I'm not the one who implied it.

Heck, even Andor was more progressive than real medieval life. Elayne is the female heir to the throne without being first-born. Her older brother Gawyn is only allowed to become top general of her armies, and he isn't in the line of succession at all. If I recall correctly, plenty of the noble houses were lead by women as well. Andor had a tradition of women with power, they just didn't have the same tradition militarily.

My point exactly - which "Renaissance society" uses this model? We've already deviated from "realism."

[CharonsHelper]

I'm not the one who implied it.

No one implied it. You said it directly.

I implied nothing of the sort. You claimed that I did in an attempt to lambast me.

[Psyren]

Yes you were.

I said nothing of the sort. You said it straight-out in an attempt to lambast me.

Your exact words were "From the perspective of keeping your populace going, it's not smart to have women be primary combatants." How is that not an implication of their expected role in "keeping the populace going" trumping their willingness or ability to fight monsters?

[CharonsHelper]

Your exact words were "From the perspective of keeping your populace going, it's not smart to have women be primary combatants." How is that not an implication of their expected role in "keeping the populace going" trumping their willingness or ability to fight monsters?

That's like claiming that because the Aiel blacksmiths don't fight that their blacksmiths must be enslaved.

It's not a logical conclusion.

[Psyren]

That's like claiming that because the Aiel blacksmiths don't fight that their blacksmiths must be enslaved.

It's not a logical conclusion.

No, this analogy isn't logical:

1) Blacksmith Aiel typically don't fight, but still will if attacked - and they definitely still know how to fight.

2) More importantly, all Aiel - from blacksmiths to roofmistresses even to Wise Ones - will fight shadowspawn. Their complicated chivalry rules go out the window when they're faced with the embodiment of evil that don't care about such rules. That makes inherent sense, and it's why the Borderlands following similar rules (even moreso since they almost never fight each other) would also make sense.

[CharonsHelper]

No, this analogy isn't logical:

1) Blacksmith Aiel typically don't fight, but still will if attacked - and they definitely still know how to fight.

2) More importantly, all Aiel - from blacksmiths to roofmistresses even to Wise Ones - will fight shadowspawn. Their complicated chivalry rules go out the window when they're faced with the embodiment of evil that don't care about such rules. That makes inherent sense, and it's why the Borderlands following similar rules (even moreso since they almost never fight each other) would also make sense.

Neither of those counter my initial point.

I specifically pointed out that it DID seem like the women in the Borderlands did get some amount of combat training. (at least the nobility) They can fight somewhat in a pinch, though they don't have the same level of training in general. But that's different from actually being the soldiers who go out to fight Trollocs in the field on campaign and have a high casualty rate.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Putting aside that killing more trollocs helps the "new generations" as much as having children….

I don’t know the setting, but this seems like an unfounded assumption, both within and outside the narrative.

Unless the humans have a precise population count of the Trollocs, they really don’t know if the advantage gained by killing a single Trolloc outweighs the risk in putting female combatants on the field.

If humanity really is on the brink, then it’s logical to protect the only ones capable of increasing human population. If there are hordes and hordes of Trollocs, the present impact of adding a few more combatants may be trivial compared with the future impact of a greater human population.

Originally Posted by Rodin
My assumption with Borderlands women was that they filled the same role as Japanese naginata women.

Do you have any sources that give more information on the naginata women?

Not disputing your point, just a topic I’ve been interested in for a while.

[Rodin]

Do you have any sources that give more information on the naginata women?

Not disputing your point, just a topic I’ve been interested in for a while.

I originally learned of them through Shogun: Total War. Not the best source, admittedly, so I quickly checked Wikipedia to make sure I wasn't spouting romanticized BS. They really existed, and were called Onna-bugeisha.

The article paints an interesting picture of early Japan showing that it was actually more egalitarian than the 17-18th century, when the ideal of the submissive Japanese housewife really took hold.

The Wikipedia article is the most in-depth one I've found so far, with the other history articles being more click-baity.

[Sivarias]

Reading into the text, borderland women are exactly that. Secondary combatants that defend the forts from surprise attack. Jordan was a history and combat history buff. The popular borderland saying is a direct rip from the Japanese soldier code of conduct for (IIRC) WW2.

Its not either or. Its both and. Women need to be kept alive to keep the generations going, AND they need combat training incase a surprise attack happens and/or the main army gets slaughtered. Biologically female lives are worth more then male lives, simply from the time investment required to procreate, it's not fair, and its not pretty, but it is true.

To steer the conversation away from lockable topics, if Dena was on the road to Camelyn, she's the unnamed dark friend woman that Matt ganked. They probably gave her a name to give her death more narrative tension.

[Psyren]

I don’t know the setting, but this seems like an unfounded assumption, both within and outside the narrative.

Unless the humans have a precise population count of the Trollocs, they really don’t know if the advantage gained by killing a single Trolloc outweighs the risk in putting female combatants on the field.

If humanity really is on the brink, then it’s logical to protect the only ones capable of increasing human population. If there are hordes and hordes of Trollocs, the present impact of adding a few more combatants may be trivial compared with the future impact of a greater human population.

It's not a dichotomy between "stay home and have babies" or "go fight trollocs and die." There are women who wouldn't want to have babies even if they did stay home, just like there are women who can be soldiers and mothers at the same time (radical concept for RJ apparently). The fact that neither possibility actually occurred to him is merely a failure of his imagination/writing that can and should be corrected.

I specifically pointed out that it DID seem like the women in the Borderlands did get some amount of combat training. (at least the nobility) They can fight somewhat in a pinch, though they don't have the same level of training in general. But that's different from actually being the soldiers who go out to fight Trollocs in the field on campaign and have a high casualty rate.

I'm not aware of any concrete examples of this other than Faile herself - and her combat training appears to have had more to do with being a Hunter for the Horn than a Borderlander noble, one who would have been presumed to not take the throne besides and so would have had greater freedom for pursuits that would be considered eclectic or eccentric. (Like, well, chasing an artifact from myths and legends.)

[Sivarias]

It's not a dichotomy between "stay home and have babies" or "go fight trollocs and die." There are women who wouldn't want to have babies even if they did stay home, just like there are women who can be soldiers and mothers at the same time (radical concept for RJ apparently). The fact that neither possibility actually occurred to him is merely a failure of his imagination/writing that can and should be corrected.



I'm not aware of any concrete examples of this other than Faile herself.

Then you weren't reading closely. Queen Tenobia leading her soldiers and developing a reputation for it, Faile's mother and the reputation (that is verified in universe as true) of borderlander women taking up their husband's banner and leading the soldiers back into the fray. The "soft" queen of Arafel, who always had the hilt of a legendary power wrought blade kept close by a bearer and who had the training to use it.

Robert Jordan was ALL OVER the idea of warrior mothers who had the training, skill, and desire to fight. Borderlander women where women that needed to be kept safer then the men because of their ability to keep the country and species alive, and full of the fire, strength, courage and training to defend their homeland should that safety ever come into question.

That's to say nothing about Seanchan regularly having female officers and soldiers, and the text just stated as a fact with no fanfare to emphasize how normal such a thing is to them.

I'm really wondering if you read the same series, or just kinda glossed over everything and missed the forest for the trees.

I'm half expecting you to tell me the Matt/Tywin plotline wasn't rape. But thats a bunny trail.

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah, I'm confused too. It's stated several times that Saldaean wives accompany their husbands into battle and swear to pick up their sword should they fall. There's actually a whole thing about Rand forbidding the Borderlander wives from accompanying them into battle because, well, Rand has many issues.

I believe Davram Bashere and his wife died in the same cavalry charge in the Last Battle.

[Sivarias]

Yeah, I'm confused to. It's stated several times that Saldaean wives accompany their husbands into battle and swear to pick up their sword should they fall. There's actually a whole thing about Rand forbidding the Borderlander wives from accompanying them into battle because, well, Rand has many issues.

I believe Davram Bashere and his wife died in the same cavalry charge in the Last Battle.

Love love love the Saldeans. Love how they train, love the honor, love the respect, love the relationships. Enough that my marriage is partially patterned after that, and I intentionally sought out a firey wife.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
The fact that neither possibility actually occurred to him is merely a failure of his imagination/writing that can and should be corrected.

If you’re in a position to make this sort of statement about a writer, then rather than asking others to “correct” his work, you should be writing original content of your own.

That way, rather than imposing your own views on another writer’s work, you will have the freedom to develop your own views to their fullest in a world of your own creation, which you can design to be the optimal setting for the stories you want to tell.

I’m not saying this simply as a talking point for an internet discussion. You are one of the smoothest writers in the Playground, with a superb command of syntax and tone. You clearly have a well-considered perspective which you want to see reflected in the fantasy genre, and you have a detailed understanding of how that genre operates.

By definition, you are the very best person to write the stories you most want to see—and we’re living in a time with a plethora of platforms all ravenous for new content. Rather than criticizing another author for his supposed failures, I would encourage you to start thinking seriously about how you would approach the stories you want to see told: and then start writing them.

Remember that Tad Williams wrote “Memory, Sorrow and Thorn” in part as a response to Tolkien, and what Williams considered to be shortcomings in Tolkien’s worldview. But Tad Williams didn’t just post criticisms of Tolkien on the internet; he wrote novels which embodied his views and were excellent fantasy epics to boot. There’s no reason you can’t do the same.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: @Sivarias

Show

Then you weren't reading closely. Queen Tenobia leading her soldiers and developing a reputation for it, Faile's mother and the reputation (that is verified in universe as true) of borderlander women taking up their husband's banner and leading the soldiers back into the fray. The "soft" queen of Arafel, who always had the hilt of a legendary power wrought blade kept close by a bearer and who had the training to use it.

Robert Jordan was ALL OVER the idea of warrior mothers who had the training, skill, and desire to fight. Borderlander women where women that needed to be kept safer then the men because of their ability to keep the country and species alive, and full of the fire, strength, courage and training to defend their homeland should that safety ever come into question.

Carrying a banner isn't fighting, and that's an unfortunate theme with RJ - like that past Queen of Andor (Modrellein) riding into the enemy so that the soldiers would rally to save her. Courageous, indisputably, but still emblematic of an underlying problem - Randland women can lead and give orders, they can inspire male soldiers to fight harder, do almost anything in society short of actually fighting themselves, despite being more than physically capable.

I'll grant that Saldaea is a somewhat of a positive exception to this rule - though the way he writes their women does lead to some pretty iffy aspects of Faile's personality, like glorifying physical abuse - and more importantly, the line about Saldaean women going into battle only talks about "wives of officers," rather than women being able to be officers themselves, so it's not all that progressive on balance.

I'm not trying to say it's all bad - there is a very healthy amount of diversity among the Heroes of the Horn for instance.

That's to say nothing about Seanchan regularly having female officers and soldiers, and the text just stated as a fact with no fanfare to emphasize how normal such a thing is to them.

We were actually talking about Randland (the main continent), not Seanchan. I in fact greatly admire this aspect of Seanchan society, though of course every positive aspect of their empire is undermined by their use of damane and da'covale as human property.

But this raises the most salient point - there are three main societies that have been fighting Shadowspawn routinely up until the present time, namely the Seanchan, the Aiel, and the Borderlands. Both of the former value their female combatants on equal footing with the male ones. There isn't a good reason for the third to function differently - that's all I'm saying.

I'm half expecting you to tell me the Matt/Tywin plotline wasn't rape. But thats a bunny trail.

Tylin actually - and no, way ahead of you, page 2 in fact.

If you’re in a position to make this sort of statement about a writer, then rather than asking others to “correct” his work, you should be writing original content of your own.

That way, rather than imposing your own views on another writer’s work, you will have the freedom to develop your own views to their fullest in a world of your own creation, which you can design to be the optimal setting for the stories you want to tell.

I’m not saying this simply as a talking point for an internet discussion. You are one of the smoothest writers in the Playground, with a superb command of syntax and tone. You clearly have a well-considered perspective which you want to see reflected in the fantasy genre, and you have a detailed understanding of how that genre operates.

By definition, you are the very best person to write the stories you most want to see—and we’re living in a time with a plethora of platforms all ravenous for new content. Rather than criticizing another author for his supposed failures, I would encourage you to start thinking seriously about how you would approach the stories you want to see told: and then start writing them.

Remember that Tad Williams wrote “Memory, Sorrow and Thorn” in part as a response to Tolkien, and what Williams considered to be shortcomings in Tolkien’s worldview. But Tad Williams didn’t just post criticisms of Tolkien on the internet; he wrote novels which embodied his views and were excellent fantasy epics to boot. There’s no reason you can’t do the same.

While I'm gratified by your compliments, "go write your own stuff" is a dismissal, however eloquently you might phrase it. Rather, what I'm seeing are encouraging signs (from the racebending Emonds' Field to the creation of new female characters) that Amazon are, like myself, open to deviating from the source material in order to improve it - and I'm stating my support of that and eager to see what else they do and/or how far they take it.

[Rynjin]

While I'm gratified by your compliments, "go write your own stuff" is a dismissal, however eloquently you might phrase it. Rather, what I'm seeing are encouraging signs (from the racebending Emonds' Field to the creation of new female characters) that Amazon are, like myself, open to deviating from the source material in order to improve it - and I'm stating my support of that and eager to see what else they do and/or how far they take it.

It's not really a dismissal, but you never really get an appreciation for how difficult it is to write a cohesive story and world until you try to actually write one, and a lot of your criticisms of Jordan's work come off as personal attacks in that light. Pulling tiny threads can lead to large unraveling.

I wrote a...book(?) that I published online a chapter a week (roughly) last year, and while it wasn't the hardest thing I've ever done, it was definitely a learning experience for me in how a written work needs to be structured to be coherent, and how difficult it is to get ideas from your head to the page. In my head, things were very clear and I had a good mental picture of what the setting looked like. Same for the characters, which I already had planned arcs for and clear characterization in mind.

From the one review I got, it's clear that I did not effectively get those things onto the page. At least, not within the first 5 chapters, which is what this guy was reviewing I believe.

Jordan does not necessarily "lack imagination" because his world does not 100% perfectly fit your views. In fact, it may have been intended to more closely do so, but was merely implied or poorly realized on the page.

[Psyren]

If I'm coming across as hostile to Robert Jordan, nothing could be further from the truth. I've said previously that there's a great deal I love about the setting.

But you can love something while still critically examining its flaws, especially when a prime (heh) opportunity to address them presents itself.

[Anteros]

Jordan does not necessarily "lack imagination" because his world does not 100% perfectly fit your views. In fact, it may have been intended to more closely do so, but was merely implied or poorly realized on the page.

Alternatively, reality itself doesn't always fit one single specific person's worldviews, and criticizing a writer for not doing so is incredibly arrogant. To the point where the person doing the dismissing probably shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

[Sivarias]

Spoiler: @Sivarias

Show

Carrying a banner isn't fighting, and that's an unfortunate theme with RJ - like that past Queen of Andor (Modrellein) riding into the enemy so that the soldiers would rally to save her. Courageous, indisputably, but still emblematic of an underlying problem - Randland women can lead and give orders, they can inspire male soldiers to fight harder, do almost anything in society short of actually fighting themselves, despite being more than physically capable.

I'll grant that Saldaea is a somewhat of a positive exception to this rule - though the way he writes their women does lead to some pretty iffy aspects of Faile's personality, like glorifying physical abuse - and more importantly, the line about Saldaean women going into battle only talks about "wives of officers," rather than women being able to be officers themselves, so it's not all that progressive on balance.

I'm not trying to say it's all bad - there is a very healthy amount of diversity among the Heroes of the Horn for instance.



We were actually talking about Randland (the main continent), not Seanchan. I in fact greatly admire this aspect of Seanchan society, though of course every positive aspect of their empire is undermined by their use of damane and da'covale as human property.

But this raises the most salient point - there are three main societies that have been fighting Shadowspawn routinely up until the present time, namely the Seanchan, the Aiel, and the Borderlands. Both of the former value their female combatants on equal footing with the male ones. There isn't a good reason for the third to function differently - that's all I'm saying.



Tylin actually - and no, way ahead of you, page 2 in fact.

While I'm gratified by your compliments, "go write your own stuff" is a dismissal, however eloquently you might phrase it. Rather, what I'm seeing are encouraging signs (from the racebending Emonds' Field to the creation of new female characters) that Amazon are, like myself, open to deviating from the source material in order to improve it - and I'm stating my support of that and eager to see what else they do and/or how far they take it.

Seanchan have not seen shadow spawn for 100? 1000? years. One of the early parts of the empires history was quelling the minor portion of the Blight that connected to their continent.

That being said, I understand your point about Saldeans, although characterizing Tenobia as a banner carrier is a gross mischaracterization. I also feel like you're undermining how much power and influence the officer's wives wield. They are basically officers themselves, and Bashere's wife herself fights off a greyman. Bashere wasn't even allowed in the tent while they were cleaning her wounds.

As for Tylin, thanks for the correction. Seems my phone autocorrected to game of thrones.

Regarding race bending and new female characters, what are you reffering to? Edmond's fielders have always been extremely dark. To the point that I'm pretty sure Nynaeve and Egwene are explicitly called out as some variation of black. They palest description I recall is swarthy, which is still pretty far from white. Closer to hispanic or arabic.

I've already said that Dena is most likely just a name for the character that Matt ganked on the way to Camelyn. Or its a pseudonym of the female dark friend who kills the dark friend whitecloak in book 13 or 14. The announcement was "on the road to Camelyn" after all.

[Mechalich]

Regarding race bending and new female characters, what are you reffering to? Edmond's fielders have always been extremely dark. To the point that I'm pretty sure Nynaeve and Egwene are explicitly called out as some variation of black. They palest description I recall is swarthy, which is still pretty far from white. Closer to hispanic or arabic.

The various official visual media - notably The World of the Wheel of Time reference book and the actual novel covers - picture essentially all Two Rivers born individuals, as explicitly Caucasian. They are dark for Europeans, and have dark hair more or less universally. The latter is actually a major plot point as Rand's red hair is part of what marks him as not being originally from the Two Rivers, and additionally other Andorans, such as Elayne, are more likely to be lighter hair wise.

Ultimately, of course, it doesn't actually matter what the people of the Two Rivers look like, ethnically, but it does matter that they all look the same. The Two Rivers is demographically isolated and ethnically homogenous, and this is actually a very important plot point. First because of how it impacts Rand's, the protagonist, identity. Second in terms of the generalized 'strength' in the One Power found in the Two Rivers with regard to the True Blood of Manetheren. Third, that unity, and the impact of demographic changes upon that unity are a huge component of Perrin's story from book 4 onward.

[Gnoman]

The text itself refers to Two Rivers people being dark-skinned (I quoted this earlier) and Rand's first visit to Camlyn mentions a few people "who's skins were too light or too dark" as standing out.

Most of the official or semi-official art I can find has a distinctly darker cast to these characters when compared to somebodu such as Moirane. The book covers don't, but the original covers barely depicted the characters as human.

[CharonsHelper]

The text itself refers to Two Rivers people being dark-skinned (I quoted this earlier) and Rand's first visit to Camlyn mentions a few people "who's skins were too light or too dark" as standing out.

Most of the official or semi-official art I can find has a distinctly darker cast to these characters when compared to somebodu such as Moirane. The book covers don't, but the original covers barely depicted the characters as human.

I always thought that they probably looked middle-eastern or maybe dark Mediterranean. Not super dark, or it would be crazy obvious that Rand the redhead wasn't Tam's son. He obviously doesn't look like he's from The Two Rivers, but not to the extent that people (including worldly people like the queen of Andor) don't buy it as a possibility that his dad was.

[Psyren]

Seanchan have not seen shadow spawn for 100? 1000? years. One of the early parts of the empires history was quelling the minor portion of the Blight that connected to their continent.

True, though presumably they recognized the value of female soldiers/officers sometime during that time at least.

That being said, I understand your point about Saldeans, although characterizing Tenobia as a banner carrier is a gross mischaracterization. I also feel like you're undermining how much power and influence the officer's wives wield. They are basically officers themselves, and Bashere's wife herself fights off a greyman. Bashere wasn't even allowed in the tent while they were cleaning her wounds.

Which is what's rather annoying. If they can be as capable as soldiers and officers, RJ, then they deserve those titles.

The various official visual media - notably The World of the Wheel of Time reference book and the actual novel covers - picture essentially all Two Rivers born individuals, as explicitly Caucasian. They are dark for Europeans, and have dark hair more or less universally.

The official comics went with this too.

But putting aside the ones with ambiguous descriptions in the books like "dark" - some characters were explicitly racebent from their novel descriptions, like Perrin and Padan Fain.

Ultimately, of course, it doesn't actually matter what the people of the Two Rivers look like, ethnically, but it does matter that they all look the same. The Two Rivers is demographically isolated and ethnically homogenous, and this is actually a very important plot point. First because of how it impacts Rand's, the protagonist, identity. Second in terms of the generalized 'strength' in the One Power found in the Two Rivers with regard to the True Blood of Manetheren. Third, that unity, and the impact of demographic changes upon that unity are a huge component of Perrin's story from book 4 onward.

Having strong ties to Manetheren doesn't mean Emonds Fielders have to be homogenous - as discussed upthread, Manetheren was one of the largest nations in the world at the time. It's plenty possible for there to be pure bloodlines that are nonetheless diverse.

[Morgaln]

If I'm coming across as hostile to Robert Jordan, nothing could be further from the truth. I've said previously that there's a great deal I love about the setting.

But you can love something while still critically examining its flaws, especially when a prime (heh) opportunity to address them presents itself.

Over the centuries, our world had hundreds of different cultures, all of them with customs and rules that we today find strange or don't agree with. Many of them make no sense, especially from a purely utilitarian viewpoint. Fashion has many great example; e. g. stiletto heels or plateau soles have no use whatsoever and are actually dangerous to the wearer; or look at 17th century ruffs that made eating so difficult special cutlery was invented. In fact, our existing cultures disagree on quite a lot of points; just get one person from every country on the world and have them discuss tipping, for example.

So why would fantasy cultures, of all things, not be allowed to have customs and restrictions that don't represent our 21st century western views? The cultures in WoT are diverse, and none of them is sold to us as the perfect society everyone should emulate. None of them is shown as a horrible society that does everything wrong, either. They're cultures that have their flaws and they are allowed to have flaws. They don't need to be perfect societies by 21st century standards.

[CharonsHelper]

Having strong ties to Manetheren doesn't mean Emonds Fielders have to be homogenous - as discussed upthread, Manetheren was one of the largest nations in the world at the time. It's plenty possible for there to be pure bloodlines that are nonetheless diverse.

Manetheren was destroyed TWO THOUSAND years ago. Even assuming that Manetheren was super cosmopolitan, The Two Rivers has been largely isolated for the last two millennia, while having a relatively low population.

There would be enough mixing over that time that they would almost certainly reach some sort of mid-point at during that time. The only way that they would retain various ethnicities is if there was some sort of intentional step not to mix - and that doesn't fit the vibe of The Two Rivers at all.

I frankly don't care terribly if the show changes that. It's a bit jarring - but not a big deal. But don't pretend that it actually makes sense for an area which has been isolated for thousands of years with a population of MAYBE 10k-12k or so total wouldn't end up being pretty homogenous.

[Rodin]

Moving away from well-tread ground and back to the series...

I wonder how they're going to handle the uneven focus of the books? The first three work pretty well as self contained stories. Book 1 is Wheel of the Rings, Book 2 is a Macguffin chase, and Book 3 is The Search For Rand. The major characters all get fairly equivalent screen-time and they're together again for the climax.

Starting in book 4 this changes. Perrin's story dominates Shadow Rising, only for him to disappear for Fires of Heaven. Mat spends a book crushed beneath a wall (and no, I'm never letting that go). For secondary characters this gets even worse. The books expand out from their previous tight focus into a sprawling epic telling the tale of an entire continent. The plot slows to a crawl as we hit Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart, then accelerates precipitously as Jordan tried to finish out the series before his failing health prevented it.

I almost feel like they have to take a Game of Thrones approach to it. Cut out bloat and replace it with storylines involving absent characters. Composite characters together and remove them if it can be done by somebody else. Re-do the chronology to keep characters involved more consistently.

[Anteros]

Moving away from well-tread ground and back to the series...

I wonder how they're going to handle the uneven focus of the books? The first three work pretty well as self contained stories. Book 1 is Wheel of the Rings, Book 2 is a Macguffin chase, and Book 3 is The Search For Rand. The major characters all get fairly equivalent screen-time and they're together again for the climax.

Starting in book 4 this changes. Perrin's story dominates Shadow Rising, only for him to disappear for Fires of Heaven. Mat spends a book crushed beneath a wall (and no, I'm never letting that go). For secondary characters this gets even worse. The books expand out from their previous tight focus into a sprawling epic telling the tale of an entire continent. The plot slows to a crawl as we hit Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart, then accelerates precipitously as Jordan tried to finish out the series before his failing health prevented it.

I almost feel like they have to take a Game of Thrones approach to it. Cut out bloat and replace it with storylines involving absent characters. Composite characters together and remove them if it can be done by somebody else. Re-do the chronology to keep characters involved more consistently.

I agree they would have to do things. I just doubt they'll make it past book 3 or so unless they massively condense things.

[CharonsHelper]

I agree they would have to do things. I just doubt they'll make it past book 3 or so unless they massively condense things.

Assuming that they did make it that far, I'm guessing that they'll pretty much have to trim the fat and focus more narrowly on the main plot. So book 4 & 5 would be meshed and focus more upon the Rand/Aiel plot with Perrin's adventures in The Two Rivers as a counterpoint sideline.

After that though, I'm not sure how they'll go. Really, more actual main plot happened in the first 5 books than the rest of the series put together. Robert Jordan ended up doing what a lot of fantasy authors seems to end up doing - they create a bunch of plot threads and then can't stand to have anything significant happen off-stage. If you want world-spanning events, you either need a bunch of minor stuff to happen off-stage, or your plot ends up as a crawl like in The WoT.

And by book 9-10ish, it feels like nearly half the books are basically just checking-in with various characters saying, "Yep - they're still doing their thing!".

[snowblizz]

Assuming that they did make it that far, I'm guessing that they'll pretty much have to trim the fat and focus more narrowly on the main plot. So book 4 & 5 would be meshed and focus more upon the Rand/Aiel plot with Perrin's adventures in The Two Rivers as a counterpoint sideline.

After that though, I'm not sure how they'll go. Really, more actual main plot happened in the first 5 books than the rest of the series put together. Robert Jordan ended up doing what a lot of fantasy authors seems to end up doing - they create a bunch of plot threads and then can't stand to have anything significant happen off-stage. If you want world-spanning events, you either need a bunch of minor stuff to happen off-stage, or your plot ends up as a crawl like in The WoT.

And by book 9-10ish, it feels like nearly half the books are basically just checking-in with various characters saying, "Yep - they're still doing their thing!".

Luckily the adaptation doesn't have to follow the structure of the books slavishly.The pacing will by necessity change anyway, as Rich says about OOTS it is different when parcelling it out 1 strip at a time vs reading it in the compilation book. Not everything has to be included from the books. The absolute worst thing they can do is cut bookmaterial and then invent new stuff though. One worry I have is that they won't take advantage of having the entire story done. And instead (re)write as they go along and clear seasons. That's how you kill a series. Jordan knew how the books would end when he started. I hope the series adapters also do.

[Rodin]

Luckily the adaptation doesn't have to follow the structure of the books slavishly.The pacing will by necessity change anyway, as Rich says about OOTS it is different when parcelling it out 1 strip at a time vs reading it in the compilation book. Not everything has to be included from the books. The absolute worst thing they can do is cut bookmaterial and then invent new stuff though. One worry I have is that they won't take advantage of having the entire story done. And instead (re)write as they go along and clear seasons. That's how you kill a series. Jordan knew how the books would end when he started. I hope the series adapters also do.

It depends. Game of Thrones gets a lot of stick for how they re-wrote the series, but a lot of the changes they made were good. Brienne's endless journey through Westeros is cut almost entirely, and that was for the best. The resulting swordfight between her and The Hound was a high point in the early seasons. Arya gets a bunch of scenes with Lord Tywin that never happened, and they were fantastic. The Dorne storyline was changed for the better right up to the point where they ran out of source material and cut the storyline short. Making up new stuff isn't necessarily bad. Game of Thrones face-planted because they had NO source material to draw on after a certain point.

From another perspective, it's hard to write out a series like this in advance. How much money will the network give you 4-5 years from now? How successful will the series be? The network execs are going to green light 13 seasons in advance. Do you have cut outs to finish the story more quickly?

I have nothing but respect for anyone who tries to adapt a sprawling epic like Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, or Wheel of Time. The source material is so massive that having a plan from day 1 is basically impossible.