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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Oh boy, there's a lot of meat to this question. WoT is a wonderful property, one that I thoroughly consumed growing up, and it is riddled with minor to major problematic issues. While I think that adaptations should be reflective of the material they're adapting, not taking the opportunity to improve or fix issues in the name of "remaining faithful" is a mistake. It's a fine and frequently difficult line to walk, and you will never make everyone happy.

    So, off the top of my head, here are some things I would want to at least look at modifying or removing:
    • The magic system. Elephant in the room, and most challenging thing to tackle. It is so baked in to the world building and the story being told that altering it at all can have serious ripple effects, potentially dramatically affecting things in unforeseen ways. However, because of this the world of WoT is inherently hostile to the existence of both trans and non-binary peoples (or at least magic users). That's a big problem. In general I agree with Psyren.
    • Queer representation is likewise awful. So I'd improve that. I don't think it's necessary to gender flip any of the main cast (though I'm not against the idea in theory), but it wouldn't be hard to include a diversity of sexual interests.
    • Rand being poly is cool. It's introduced through the Aiel, who are polygamous. **** that, make their culture polyamorous, give us brother-husbands. There is no narrative purpose I can recall to this bit of misogyny, no point or payoff, so fix it. Simple enough.
    • Explicitly call out and deal with the Tylin/Mat relationship for what it was: rape and abuse. Not make light of it, or other relationships like it, just because the victim was a man.
    • Rewrite the Perrin/Faile/Berelain romance. It's pretty poor.
    • Jordan was rather bad at writing women. Particularly in regards to leaning in the misogynistic tropes or differentiating them. I think the simple act of having actors make each character there own would do a lot here. The biggest thing to avoid/fix would be changing the various traits that many of the WoT women share. *sniffs, tugs braid, and mutters "Men!" under my breath*
    • Improve Demandred. His reveal at the end was...weak. Shara was highly underdeveloped for a plot point to be utilized, and the Forsaken was wasted.
    • Elayne is terrible by the end of the series. Either make Elayne less awful or highlight her awfulness.
    • The three musketeers are reflected with Team Magikarp. The boys are generally more important, successful, and independent, while the women are more incompetent, arrogant, and ineffectual. It's a thread I dislike and would modify.
    • If possible, make the Old Tongue a full con-lang. :p


    I'm sure there are a million more things, because RJ built such a large, rich world that there are a billion facets that could be potentially polished. ^_^

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I don't think you can cut out Saidin/Saidar as the two halves of the one power; it's too baked into the worldbuilding. However, I think you could make it so that they're no longer related to gender without too many problems. Both men and women can become Aes Sedai and access Saidar. They are weaker than men and women who can access Saidin, but are capable of linking up, so that balances out. And of course, in modern times, anyone who can and does access Saidin will be driven insane by its taint.

    What problems would this cause? Some of the wannabe Dragon Reborns would be women, so the Red Ajah wouldn't be man-haters by default. If you want to keep their antagonistic status, just make them hostile to everyone (that isn't an Aes Sedai) as a potential channeler of Saidin, much like they extrapolated their hatred of Saidin to all men in the original. It wouldn't be instantly apparent that a man channeling was accessing Saidin (and thus a ticking time bomb) unless you could channel Saidar; this still isn't that big a deal since any False Dragon would still be distinguishable by being several times stronger than a normal channeler. Any other problems?
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You can explain this one differently via simple dilution - there are far more female channelers in the world, so the few males in this era that gain control of saidin without dying have more at their fingertips and end up being a little stronger. This makes it less about arbitrary gender divides than it does simple math, which is more logical. The books themselves lay the foundation for this, because the Wheel innately seeks equilibrium and Rand's ta'veren nature warps chance to get him what he needs - which is why the Black Tower found so many members capable of surviving training so quickly.
    There are artifacts for channeling massive amounts of power in the setting implying that there is enough energy in the sources available. (I guess you could say that it only diminished enough that it becomes harder to draw on or something, but that would be rather weak as an explanation.)

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    However, because of this the world of WoT is inherently hostile to the existence of both trans and non-binary peoples (or at least magic users). That's a big problem. In general I agree with Psyren.
    This is not directly true i think. Its not more inherently hostile than any other world.
    For a start being a channeler is so absurdly rare its unlikely to really matter. Its just around 2% who has even the potential to learn.
    And more importantly. So what?

    Biology isnt hostile. It simply is. Its not something that can be escaped in the real world either.
    Your born with a biological body. Yes you can change its apperance. But not what it physically is.
    The same way you cant paint a mercedes red and call it a rolls royce (or insert more fitting car brands).

    Queer representation is likewise awful. So I'd improve that. I don't think it's necessary to gender flip any of the main cast (though I'm not against the idea in theory), but it wouldn't be hard to include a diversity of sexual interests.
    Problem is, wanting to represent -every- single minority leads to a stupidly bloated cast. For no good reason.
    I think its better to accept you cant have everyone in every movie.

    Rand being poly is cool. It's introduced through the Aiel, who are polygamous. **** that, make their culture polyamorous, give us brother-husbands. There is no narrative purpose I can recall to this bit of misogyny, no point or payoff, so fix it. Simple enough.
    I think there was one female camp leader who had 2 husband? not entirely certain though.

    Besides that. Do fully agree on the romance bit. In general they were all awful in one way or another.
    cant think of one that was good. Perhaps except the Berelain/Galadan one.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Wasnt there implications in the green ajah with multiple warders and their relationships with each other? I cant recall for sure but I think there were at least implications that it was a sort of female harem thing with the aes sedai and her stable of muscly menfolk. Of course there was also the issue of bonding them to you without permission. Or transferring bonds like happened with Lan iirc.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I don't even see the need to eliminate men being stronger. No one said life, either actual or fictional, is fair.

    More to the point, there are lots of ways in which the traits of men and women are reliably predictable based on gender. It's not just a matter of plumbing.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Wasnt there implications in the green ajah with multiple warders and their relationships with each other?
    Oh, definitely. I'd forgotten about that, but it was definitely there.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    *snip*

    I'm sure there are a million more things, because RJ built such a large, rich world that there are a billion facets that could be potentially polished. ^_^
    Dear lord, I completely forgot the Mat/Tylin "relationship" Yeah, that one definitely needs to be reworked - it's incredibly toxic, so at a minimum that fact needs to be acknowledged by the work instead of being treated as comic relief.

    Part of me thinks the "brother-husband" thing does exist in the Aiel, but it's yet another example of that kind of representation being shied away from by RJ.

    I think Elayne and Egwene both got the short end of the stick, but Elayne was definitely the more annoying of the two..

    Agreed with you re:Demandred. In fact, all of the Forsaken felt woefully underdeveloped - even the ones with a ton of screentime like Lanfear and Moridin.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I don't think you can cut out Saidin/Saidar as the two halves of the one power; it's too baked into the worldbuilding. However, I think you could make it so that they're no longer related to gender without too many problems. Both men and women can become Aes Sedai and access Saidar. They are weaker than men and women who can access Saidin, but are capable of linking up, so that balances out. And of course, in modern times, anyone who can and does access Saidin will be driven insane by its taint.

    What problems would this cause? Some of the wannabe Dragon Reborns would be women, so the Red Ajah wouldn't be man-haters by default. If you want to keep their antagonistic status, just make them hostile to everyone (that isn't an Aes Sedai) as a potential channeler of Saidin, much like they extrapolated their hatred of Saidin to all men in the original. It wouldn't be instantly apparent that a man channeling was accessing Saidin (and thus a ticking time bomb) unless you could channel Saidar; this still isn't that big a deal since any False Dragon would still be distinguishable by being several times stronger than a normal channeler. Any other problems?
    Honestly, I'm fine keeping this age's Dragon (and therefore all the False Dragons) male. You could even keep the channeling gender divide through most of the series, and show it as having been that way back in the Age of Legends too. So long as it is proven to be false at the end. Men channel saidin and women channel saidar because they believe that's the way it has to be, and that's how all channelers learned - much like how in Dragon Age, every circle mage is taught that the Fade is an inherently dangerous place, and so it always is dangerous for them because it reflects their training and expectations. But the series should bring about the conclusion/realization that this dichotomy is based on something else instead, or may even have been an illusion all along. Then reinforce this with one of the final shots of the series being a new AS symbol that isn't as divided into two distinct halves. I believe you can keep 80% of the magic system more or less unchanged and still get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    There are artifacts for channeling massive amounts of power in the setting implying that there is enough energy in the sources available. (I guess you could say that it only diminished enough that it becomes harder to draw on or something, but that would be rather weak as an explanation.)
    1) I didn't say the amount of total Power available to be channeled has to be diminished in any way. This change would purely just affect the amount of potential possessed by the typical channeler. (And of course, it wouldn't affect the Two Rivers cast, thanks to being Manetheren descendants.)

    2) Even if the Source was affected in some way, the artifacts you speak of already break the rules that apply to normal channeling, so them functioning differently than a regular channeler doesn't need much explanation. For example, Sa'angreal have a buffer that protects the channeler from drawing too much in (Callandor being the lone exception) but an unaided channeler doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    This is not directly true i think. Its not more inherently hostile than any other world.
    For a start being a channeler is so absurdly rare its unlikely to really matter. Its just around 2% who has even the potential to learn.
    And more importantly. So what?
    This is why I linked that quote from the Giant earlier in the thread. Fantasy is valuable not for how it differs from our world, but for those concepts it reflects and/or allows us to examine in greater detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Problem is, wanting to represent -every- single minority leads to a stupidly bloated cast. For no good reason.
    I think its better to accept you cant have everyone in every movie.
    Let's turn this around. There are existing cast whose sexuality doesn't come up at all, like Logain. What would it detract or bloat to simply give them one? It wouldn't need more than a few lines of dialogue, perhaps even a knowing glance between him and someone else, and bam, mission accomplished. (Though I certainly wouldn't mind an on-screen kiss.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I don't think trying to impose our individual personal politics on works is a good idea, whether from the point of view of adapting the original work or the point of view of the wider audience.

    If you don't like the central conceits of a setting and series, why try to adapt it?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    I am shocked this thread is not talking about the BDSM and Domination aspects of the series, both body stuff but also you can warp someone's mind / soul permanently with things like Compulsion and 13x13. [I am skipping lots more examples for simplicity and spoilers.]

    Seriously that stuff would be problematic for a mass audience. I am not saying it can't be made on a tv streaming service, I am saying though this content matter does restrict the audience for some people will not be comfortable with all that happened, and some will say no I am no longer interested in this show when we live in a world with 500+ scripted shows per year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    I don't think trying to impose our individual personal politics on works is a good idea, whether from the point of view of adapting the original work or the point of view of the wider audience.

    If you don't like the central conceits of a setting and series, why try to adapt it?
    Indeed.

    I haven't read the series. Tried to read the first novel, was bored out of my mind and never tried again.

    But from this thread it sounds like it would be much easier to just write something better than try to re-write this series.


    Besides, there's the issue with copyright. I certainly would not want anyone to make my writing more suited to their personal politics. I write things the way I write them for a reason.

    I am pretty sure most authors feel the same and have instructed their heirs accordingly.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I don't think you can do much with the magic system, it's too baked into everything that happens.

    The big change I'd like to see in an adaptation is to dial up how dangerous the Red Ajah is in combat. They're the only people that are dedicated to channeler on channeler combat, and are expected to deal with people that are stronger than them and weaving things they can't see, even though they're handicapped by not being allowed to use the power as a weapon.

    . They're not the 'hee hee, I hate men' people, they're the war veterans.

    The Greens, Asha'man and damane seem to focus on soldier on soldier combat.
    This is really all that needs to be done; not this specific change, mind, but the general idea: reframing.

    Having the Red Ajah be the most militant haters of male channelers is fine in itself. The framing just needs to be changed from "She-woman man haters club" to "have PTSD and legitimate reasons to distrust men".

    The same is true with a lot of other things. Keep the scene where Tylin rapes Mat. Make it as squicky as it should be instead of being played for laughs because "men can't be raped". Etc. etc.

    There is absolutely no reason to change core setting elements or scenes.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    This is why I linked that quote from the Giant earlier in the thread. Fantasy is valuable not for how it differs from our world, but for those concepts it reflects and/or allows us to examine in greater detail.
    Just because its his forum does not mean i have to take him as a authority on any subject. Im not going to give his words more weight on anything but forum rules and a comic.

    Let's turn this around. There are existing cast whose sexuality doesn't come up at all, like Logain. What would it detract or bloat to simply give them one? It wouldn't need more than a few lines of dialogue, perhaps even a knowing glance between him and someone else, and bam, mission accomplished. (Though I certainly wouldn't mind an on-screen kiss.)
    Well fair, for fringe cases like Logain, 1-2 lines likely would not make the biggest difference.

    I don't think trying to impose our individual personal politics on works is a good idea, whether from the point of view of adapting the original work or the point of view of the wider audience.

    If you don't like the central conceits of a setting and series, why try to adapt it?
    Yeah this is a relevant point i think. We got tons of fantasy universes where the magic is equal for everybody.
    In particular Brandon Sanderson has some interesting heroines as well. And a generally diverse cast. Mistborn is a good example.

    I am shocked this thread is not talking about the BDSM and Domination aspects of the series, both body stuff but also you can warp someone's mind / soul permanently with things like Compulsion and 13x13. [I am skipping lots more examples for simplicity and spoilers.]
    The D in BDSM already covers domination. And likely people isnt talking about it because there isnt really any in the serie.
    Perhaps except in the Math relationship everyone is complaining about. That one is honestly very hard to get a proper feeling for.
    It seems we are suposed to read the apperent lack of consent on Math's part is just him playing hard to get. Or being a unreliable narrator as usual.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    The D in BDSM already covers domination. And likely people isnt talking about it because there isnt really any in the serie.
    Perhaps except in the Math relationship everyone is complaining about. That one is honestly very hard to get a proper feeling for.
    It seems we are suposed to read the apperent lack of consent on Math's part is just him playing hard to get. Or being a unreliable narrator as usual.
    I am referrring to Domination that is Sex vs Domination that is not Sex seperately and thus I used the seperate words BDSM and Domination.

    Things that are domination but not sexual are compulsion, the warder's bond, 13x13, A'dam (aka Sul'dam + damane), actual slavery, so on and so on. There is so much of it in this series, the mechanics of the great powers are literally built upon it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Honestly, I'm fine keeping this age's Dragon (and therefore all the False Dragons) male. You could even keep the channeling gender divide through most of the series, and show it as having been that way back in the Age of Legends too. So long as it is proven to be false at the end. Men channel saidin and women channel saidar because they believe that's the way it has to be, and that's how all channelers learned - much like how in Dragon Age, every circle mage is taught that the Fade is an inherently dangerous place, and so it always is dangerous for them because it reflects their training and expectations. But the series should bring about the conclusion/realization that this dichotomy is based on something else instead, or may even have been an illusion all along. Then reinforce this with one of the final shots of the series being a new AS symbol that isn't as divided into two distinct halves. I believe you can keep 80% of the magic system more or less unchanged and still get there.
    Alternatively, you could keep 100% of the magic system unchanged, and actually have a faithful adaption.

    All of your posts in this thread seem to be based on the assumption that if a part of a fantasy setting doesn't match up with how you see the world, then it should be changed. Have you considered that maybe part of the point of fantasy is that it presents readers with a different way of seeing the world?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I don't think you can cut out Saidin/Saidar as the two halves of the one power; it's too baked into the worldbuilding. However, I think you could make it so that they're no longer related to gender without too many problems. Both men and women can become Aes Sedai and access Saidar. They are weaker than men and women who can access Saidin, but are capable of linking up, so that balances out. And of course, in modern times, anyone who can and does access Saidin will be driven insane by its taint.

    What problems would this cause? Some of the wannabe Dragon Reborns would be women, so the Red Ajah wouldn't be man-haters by default. If you want to keep their antagonistic status, just make them hostile to everyone (that isn't an Aes Sedai) as a potential channeler of Saidin, much like they extrapolated their hatred of Saidin to all men in the original. It wouldn't be instantly apparent that a man channeling was accessing Saidin (and thus a ticking time bomb) unless you could channel Saidar; this still isn't that big a deal since any False Dragon would still be distinguishable by being several times stronger than a normal channeler. Any other problems?
    Decoupling the One Power from gender would also require some rather significant reworking of the hostilities and prejudices of the world and male casters. I don't have an issue with it, since I think that RJ's opinions on the nature and purpose of gender are antiquated at best, but it would result in a rather more egalitarian society. That's not bad, just a rather significant departure. Either that or all new channelers are regarded with fear, assumed the worst.
    As far as additional issues, strength in the Power is already rather nebulous in the world, and more or less irrelevant and imperceptible to the populace at large. It would require either a lot of new characters, or a lot of gender flips. A lot of assumptions and existing things and customs would need to be re-evaluated. Like Far Madding. Like I said, I wouldn't be opposed, it'd just be a lot of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    This is not directly true i think. Its not more inherently hostile than any other world.
    For a start being a channeler is so absurdly rare its unlikely to really matter. Its just around 2% who has even the potential to learn.
    And more importantly. So what?

    Biology isnt hostile. It simply is. Its not something that can be escaped in the real world either.
    Your born with a biological body. Yes you can change its apperance. But not what it physically is.
    The same way you cant paint a mercedes red and call it a rolls royce (or insert more fitting car brands).

    Problem is, wanting to represent -every- single minority leads to a stupidly bloated cast. For no good reason.
    I think its better to accept you cant have everyone in every movie.

    I think there was one female camp leader who had 2 husband? not entirely certain though.

    Besides that. Do fully agree on the romance bit. In general they were all awful in one way or another.
    cant think of one that was good. Perhaps except the Berelain/Galadan one.
    I'm not going to touch your comments on biology.

    Connection to the One Power isn't biological within WoT. Aran'Gar is proof of that. It's metaphysical.

    Representation matters. That is a good enough reason all on it's own. Regardless, this has been posed as an expansive streaming service show, trimming for a movie cast isn't an issue. Additionally, this isn't a story focusing on one person and a small point in their life. This is a world-spanning epic with an equivalent cast. In many ways RJ did a lovely job showing many facets and difference throughout the world. I don't have a good enough recall to discuss the quality of racial representation, but in that respect WoT is diverse. He failed on a gender and sexual orientation footing, and that's something that should be addressed. Altering gender, or sexual orientation, of some characters would be fairly easy given the size and scope of the story as is. No need for OCs.

    I completely agree on the quality of romances. They're just cringe-inducing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Wasnt there implications in the green ajah with multiple warders and their relationships with each other? I cant recall for sure but I think there were at least implications that it was a sort of female harem thing with the aes sedai and her stable of muscly menfolk. Of course there was also the issue of bonding them to you without permission. Or transferring bonds like happened with Lan iirc.
    I had forgotten about that! So there are some instances of a woman with multiple men. That's cool. But they're all AS/Warder, so not gonna unpack the power dynamic issues in those tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Part of me thinks the "brother-husband" thing does exist in the Aiel, but it's yet another example of that kind of representation being shied away from by RJ.

    I think Elayne and Egwene both got the short end of the stick, but Elayne was definitely the more annoying of the two..

    Agreed with you re:Demandred. In fact, all of the Forsaken felt woefully underdeveloped - even the ones with a ton of screentime like Lanfear and Moridin.
    Given the rest of the gender politics, my personal suspicion is less "shied away from" and more either "didn't think of it" or "actively avoided." RJ gets no points for fanon.

    Egwene could also use work for sure.

    I would love more Forsaken screen time. I think in total terms Be'Lal is the one that gets most hosed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    I don't think trying to impose our individual personal politics on works is a good idea, whether from the point of view of adapting the original work or the point of view of the wider audience.

    If you don't like the central conceits of a setting and series, why try to adapt it?
    I think this take relies on the assumption that RJ's central conceit was antithetical to the existence of trans or non-binary identities, rather than ignorant. While I obviously can't know, I assume no malice given that even with the veneer of misogyny that lies over the series his ultimate point was that men and women, shorthand for different people, can achieve more when they work together, rather than separately or at odds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I am shocked this thread is not talking about the BDSM and Domination aspects of the series, both body stuff but also you can warp someone's mind / soul permanently with things like Compulsion and 13x13. [I am skipping lots more examples for simplicity and spoilers.]

    Seriously that stuff would be problematic for a mass audience. I am not saying it can't be made on a tv streaming service, I am saying though this content matter does restrict the audience for some people will not be comfortable with all that happened, and some will say no I am no longer interested in this show when we live in a world with 500+ scripted shows per year.
    Hey, this isn't the Sword of Truth! But seriously, the story doesn't really discuss or focus on themes of abuse, assault, and rape. They happen, and a show made for a mature audience can effortless include them. Whether they're handled well or not...well, Game of Thrones was a cultural touchstone, and this is no where near as challenging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Indeed.

    I haven't read the series. Tried to read the first novel, was bored out of my mind and never tried again.

    But from this thread it sounds like it would be much easier to just write something better than try to re-write this series.


    Besides, there's the issue with copyright. I certainly would not want anyone to make my writing more suited to their personal politics. I write things the way I write them for a reason.

    I am pretty sure most authors feel the same and have instructed their heirs accordingly.
    I don't think there is any point to worrying about the legal issues. It just muddies the question of what people would want to alter in an adaptation. This is a theoretical exercise and a fan engaging with the material, not a company lawyer negotiating a contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The same is true with a lot of other things. Keep the scene where Tylin rapes Mat. Make it as squicky as it should be instead of being played for laughs because "men can't be raped". Etc. etc.

    There is absolutely no reason to change core setting elements or scenes.
    I don't know if this was aimed at me, but to be clear I did not suggest removing Tylin/Mat.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Or being a unreliable narrator as usual.
    Mat isn't an unreliable narrator. The series is told from third person perspective, and there is no indication that the internal thoughts and actions of any of the characters is intended to be deceptive to the reader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Alternatively, you could keep 100% of the magic system unchanged, and actually have a faithful adaption.

    All of your posts in this thread seem to be based on the assumption that if a part of a fantasy setting doesn't match up with how you see the world, then it should be changed. Have you considered that maybe part of the point of fantasy is that it presents readers with a different way of seeing the world?
    Because engaging with media you care about is fun, and theoretical exercises that include discussing a work's flaws is a reasonable method of engagement.

    Source material is not scarosaint, and wanting an adaptation to address flaws is a reasonable stance. That doesn't diminish the interest, love, nostalgia, or any other feeling someone might have regarding the work in question.
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2020-05-31 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Update

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Wasnt there implications in the green ajah with multiple warders and their relationships with each other? I cant recall for sure but I think there were at least implications that it was a sort of female harem thing with the aes sedai and her stable of muscly menfolk. Of course there was also the issue of bonding them to you without permission. Or transferring bonds like happened with Lan iirc.
    I don't think the Green were implied to be routinely involved with all their Warders. There was one Green sister who was rumored to have married all of her Warders, which was seen as weird. Also, it was established that the only reason a Green sister would take just one Warder was if she had married him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Alternatively, you could keep 100% of the magic system unchanged, and actually have a faithful adaption.

    All of your posts in this thread seem to be based on the assumption that if a part of a fantasy setting doesn't match up with how you see the world, then it should be changed. Have you considered that maybe part of the point of fantasy is that it presents readers with a different way of seeing the world?
    An adaptation is a chance to improve on problematic elements of the original. Westworld did it, Luke Cage did it, Wicked did it, She-Ra did it, I could go on - all are fantasy and all broadened the appeal of the original while staying true to what made them appealing in the first place, garnering both critical and commercial success in the process. To repeat my earlier statement: "it's not an adaptation (or a good adaptation) if you change anything" is not a stance I share, and thankfully other creators also see things that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Because engaging with media you care about is fun, and theoretical exercises that include discussing a work's flaws is a reasonable method of engagement.

    Source material is not sacrosanct, and wanting an adaptation to address flaws is a reasonable stance. That doesn't diminish the interest, love, nostalgia, or any other feeling someone might have regarding the work in question.
    Also this - thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Representation matters. That is a good enough reason all on it's own. Regardless, this has been posed as an expansive streaming service show, trimming for a movie cast isn't an issue. Additionally, this isn't a story focusing on one person and a small point in their life. This is a world-spanning epic with an equivalent cast. In many ways RJ did a lovely job showing many facets and difference throughout the world. I don't have a good enough recall to discuss the quality of racial representation, but in that respect WoT is diverse. He failed on a gender and sexual orientation footing, and that's something that should be addressed. Altering gender, or sexual orientation, of some characters would be fairly easy given the size and scope of the story as is. No need for OCs.
    Agreed - and the racial representation even in the original was fantastic, especially for its time. People of color held numerous positions of power, both political (e.g. Tuon and her mother) and magical (Rahvin, Semirhage), or were just generally competent (Juilin, Ingtar).

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    I would love more Forsaken screen time. I think in total terms Be'Lal is the one that gets most hosed?
    I believe so. Certainly he's the only one I can think of that gets introduced and dies (permanently) in the span of a single book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I am shocked this thread is not talking about the BDSM and Domination aspects of the series, both body stuff but also you can warp someone's mind / soul permanently with things like Compulsion and 13x13. [I am skipping lots more examples for simplicity and spoilers.]
    The 13x13 thing is your standard "there is an evil spirit driving your body now that has access to your body's memories" thing. See also every single vampire in Buffy and most of the demons in Supernatural. The only thing special here is the method of implanting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This is really all that needs to be done; not this specific change, mind, but the general idea: reframing.

    Having the Red Ajah be the most militant haters of male channelers is fine in itself. The framing just needs to be changed from "She-woman man haters club" to "have PTSD and legitimate reasons to distrust men".

    The same is true with a lot of other things. Keep the scene where Tylin rapes Mat. Make it as squicky as it should be instead of being played for laughs because "men can't be raped". Etc. etc.
    I agree it should be squicky/negative if they do it at all, but the problem then becomes that they need to do something with that. Him simply falling for her right before he leaves and then her getting fridged via gholam purely to cause him man pain was a bit of a miss imo. Getting to call her out for her behavior is something I'd like to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Psyren, the problem that I see with your argument for changing the magic system is that the justification for the changes you want seems to be the idea that "men and women are different" is somehow inherently wrong, and your reasoning for this seems to be something about 'outdated' science ... even though in the real world human men are on average taller, heavier, and stronger than human women, and there's enough physical differences that archeologists can have a pretty good idea of whether someone was male or female based on fragments of their skeleton. Furthermore, the split magic system is a core part of the setting, so it's a rather major thing to change just because "I don't like it."

    Also, InvisibleBison's suggestion of using gender identity or sexual orientation as part of the selection criteria for certain roles seems questionable - it's probably illegal, and it has nothing to do with whether or not the actor or actress will deliver a good performance anyways, so the only reason to do it would seem to be the publicity you could get for saying you'd done so.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2020-05-31 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Psyren, the problem that I see with your argument for changing the magic system is that the justification for the changes you want seems to be the idea that "men and women are different" is somehow inherently wrong, and your reasoning for this seems to be something about 'outdated' science ... even though in the real world human men are on average taller, heavier, and stronger than human women, and there's enough physical differences that archeologists can have a pretty good idea of whether someone was male or female based on fragments of their skeleton.
    Except the books are what chose to tie the magic to metaphysical rather than physical characteristics, not me. The moment they brought Balthamel back as Aran'gar but didn't change the power they could access, that question was definitively raised - and all your citations of dimorphic physical characteristics ceased to have any relevance, because clearly they have nothing to do with accessing the One Power.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Except the books are what chose to tie the magic to metaphysical rather than physical characteristics, not me. The moment they brought Balthamel back as Aran'gar but didn't change the power they could access, that question was definitively raised - and all your citations of dimorphic physical characteristics ceased to have any relevance, because clearly they have nothing to do with accessing the One Power.
    And the reason why the magic system cannot have features analogous to dimorphic phsyical characteristics is...?

    Also, Balthamel did not come back as Aran'gar through the 'natural' processes of the setting but rather through the Dark One's power so in some sense it's akin to a person having a sex change operation, and while going through such an operation will cause physiological changes, those changes take time and not everything is equally - or significantly - affected. Your skeleton, for instance, cares more that you reached adulthood as a physically-male or physically-female human being than that you had a sex change.

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    Aeson identifying bones and knowing the sex of the person whose bones they are is not as accurate as you think it is. Especially if the hip bone is missing (the one that shows greatest sexual dimorphism.)
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-05-31 at 11:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Except the books are what chose to tie the magic to metaphysical rather than physical characteristics, not me. The moment they brought Balthamel back as Aran'gar but didn't change the power they could access, that question was definitively raised - and all your citations of dimorphic physical characteristics ceased to have any relevance, because clearly they have nothing to do with accessing the One Power.
    Two questions:

    1. Is your point that the books choice to not associate magic with physical characteristics, means it is not analogous to physical characteristics of each sex (including ones which cannot be modified by surgery such as reproductive ability)? Rather because it is 'metaphysical', it is more analogous to identity, and therefore the strict borders between the ability to do different types of magic is problematic in the context of a world where many people do not see gender identity as having strict borders?

    2. Do you accept that the question of whether the books need to be changed in this way for more modern sensibilities is largely a question of taste? Some people (as has been expressed in this thread) would prefer to see the relationship between sex/gender and magic within the series not be tinkered with? Others (such as you) would prefer to see it revamped? While you are right that revamps do make changes, those are sometimes well received and sometimes poorly received, and it seems that whether this aspect of the books ought to be revamped is indeed a matter of personal preference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    And the reason why the magic system cannot have features analogous to dimorphic phsyical characteristics is...?
    Because WoT's magic is not physical - it comes from the channeler's mind, not their muscles, and certainly not any other body parts. Everywhere else we see physicality incorporated into the magic system eventually gets proven to be an extraneous falsehood reinforced (in some cases) through centuries of unquestioning tradition, rather than necessity - like Aes Sedai incorporating unnecessary somatic components into several of their weaves that cause other channelers (Aiel Wise Ones for instance) to look at them like they're crazy. Or Nynaeve being convinced that she can't Heal people without incorporating herbs somehow, until she's forced to save someone's life without having that crutch focus handy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Two questions:

    1. Is your point that the books choice to not associate magic with physical characteristics, means it is not analogous to physical characteristics of each sex (including ones which cannot be modified by surgery such as reproductive ability)? Rather because it is 'metaphysical', it is more analogous to identity, and therefore the strict borders between the ability to do different types of magic is problematic in the context of a world where many people do not see gender identity as having strict borders?

    2. Do you accept that the question of whether the books need to be changed in this way for more modern sensibilities is largely a question of taste? Some people (as has been expressed in this thread) would prefer to see the relationship between sex/gender and magic within the series not be tinkered with? Others (such as you) would prefer to see it revamped? While you are right that revamps do make changes, those are sometimes well received and sometimes poorly received, and it seems that whether this aspect of the books ought to be revamped is indeed a matter of personal preference.
    1. I confess I didn't understand all of that (it's pretty late here), but the last part seems in line with my perspective.

    2. I would use "societal norms" here, though those are certainly a function of tastes. Nonbinary and fluid expressions/identities of gender are both far more visible/prevalent in popular culture than they were when The Eye of the World was written. I'm not at all trying to disparage Robert Jordan for what he wrote in 1990 - I'm merely pointing out that it's no longer 1990, and that if his works were adapted, taking 1990 sensibilities as gospel might not be the most effective strategy.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-06-01 at 01:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1. I confess I didn't understand all of that (it's pretty late here), but the last part seems in line with my perspective.
    I suppose I am trying to understand why you don't think the sex-specific magic in WoT would work the same as sex-specific physical characteristics in the real world (like the ability to produce sperm/produce an egg)? Are you saying that the general theme of it relates it more closely to gender identity than sex?

    I think your reply to Aeson largely clarifies that though. You see magic as being in the mind, rather than in the body, and thus you say that differences in the bodies of men and women would be irrelevant.

    I suppose that bring us to the question of whether there are differences in the mind of those whose sex is male and whose sex is female which persevere even if their gender identity does not equal their sex. I don't know the answer to that question, and I suspect it is not known.

    2. I would use "societal norms" here, though those are certainly a function of tastes. Nonbinary and fluid expressions/identities of gender are both far more visible/prevalent in popular culture than they were when The Eye of the World was written. I'm not at all trying to disparage Robert Jordan for what he wrote in 1990 - I'm merely pointing out that it's no longer 1990, and that if his works were adapted, taking 1990 sensibilities as gospel might not be the most effective strategy.
    But does that leave us with three sets of people:
    1. People who, like you, think of binary gender as an out-dated social construct, and would prefer that a WoT adaption reflect that.
    2. People who, like you, think of binary gender as an out-dated social construct. But, unlike you, don't see the magic system of WoT as contrary to that, or feel that maintaining the original story outweighs that, and therefore prefer to see an adaption leave the magic system as is.
    3. People who, unlike you, do not think of binary gender as an out-dated social construct and thus would prefer to wee a WoT adaption leave the magic system as is.

    I accept that this is an oversimplification, and there will be people who sit on the fence between these, or who don't care etc. But at a basic level most people who have an opinion will have something approaching one of those three.

    If so, is it not a question of whether group 1 is larger than group 2 and 3 combined? Or in other words, how many people's preference if for magic to be redone relative to how many people's is that it is left untouched?
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-06-01 at 01:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    An adaptation is a chance to improve on problematic elements of the original. Westworld did it, Luke Cage did it, Wicked did it, She-Ra did it, I could go on - all are fantasy and all broadened the appeal of the original while staying true to what made them appealing in the first place, garnering both critical and commercial success in the process. To repeat my earlier statement: "it's not an adaptation (or a good adaptation) if you change anything" is not a stance I share, and thankfully other creators also see things that way.
    No-one here believes that an adaption shouldn't change anything. What multiple people have said is that you shouldn't change core features of a setting without a VERY good reason. And the fact that saidin and saidar are different and work differently in WoT is probably the single most important detail about the setting. It's what I start with when I'm explaining it to people.

    Honestly, if you find the idea of male and female magic being metaphysically different to be this offensive, I'm genuinely confused as to why you even like WoT in the first place. You talk in your original post about how the series has lots of characters, a big world, big battles, triumph of good over evil, etc. But that also describes basically every epic fantasy book ever. If you want all those things without the WoT's One Power, all you have to do is pick virtually any other book in the genre.

    In something like 90%-99% of fantasy series, male and female magic basically works in the same way. Why are you so determined that that number should be 100%? Is it really THAT terrible for a small minority of fantasy stories to do something different?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I am referrring to Domination that is Sex vs Domination that is not Sex seperately and thus I used the seperate words BDSM and Domination.

    Things that are domination but not sexual are compulsion, the warder's bond, 13x13, A'dam (aka Sul'dam + damane), actual slavery, so on and so on. There is so much of it in this series, the mechanics of the great powers are literally built upon it.
    I don't think it would be a big problem in a post Game of Thrones world. The kinky stuff is not that important to the setting and can be written out if problematic. Compulsion is mainly used by villainous characters, and WoT is hardly the first to have mind control as a major part of the setting. The implications of the warder's bond are heavily discussed within the books, and I see no reason as to why that couldn't be addressed in an adaptation. Game of Thrones had actual slavery and it raised no eyebrows.

    The biggest sticking point is the Seanchan and the A'dam. Our initial encounter with them is fine. Egwene's experience is shown to be horrific, and depicting that on screen is something an adaptation could do powerfully. However, later in the story Elayne and Nynaeve make their own A'dam and use it to control Moghedien. The Seanchan are brought on board to fight in the Last Battle, and I don't recall the Sul'dam/damane problem ever getting resolved.

    Still, I think it's something you could write around. It would require setting the stage for it, perhaps by showing the culture of the invading Seanchan army mixing with the lands they conquer. Make it easier for them to join Team Good Guy at the end.

    On the other discussion, I am firmly on the side of "you can't change the magic system". The magic system and the gender politics that result are too integral to the setting. Every change I think of sets off a cascade of dominoes that results in something unrecognizable as Wheel of Time.

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    Mat isn't an unreliable narrator. The series is told from third person perspective, and there is no indication that the internal thoughts and actions of any of the characters is intended to be deceptive to the reader.
    ... Mat "im not a hero" Cauthon isnt unreliable?
    Yeah right. Pull the other one.

    Connection to the One Power isn't biological within WoT. Aran'Gar is proof of that. It's metaphysical.
    Because WoT's magic is not physical - it comes from the channeler's mind, not their muscles, and certainly not any other body parts.
    Well.. i would hardly take a case of the Dark one meddling as proof of anything about the natural order.

    But yes, channeling ability seems to be attached to whatever bit it is that gets reincarnated though the wheel.
    So what? Male souls get male magic. And Female souls get female magic. Its just magical biology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    ... Mat "im not a hero" Cauthon isnt unreliable?
    Yeah right. Pull the other one.
    He tells it like he sees it, and he doesn't see himself as a hero. And since consent or the lack thereof is pretty heavily dependent on his point of view, I don't think the argument that he's sometimes wrong about things outside his own head holds weight here.


    But yes, channeling ability seems to be attached to whatever bit it is that gets reincarnated though the wheel.
    So what? Male souls get male magic. And Female souls get female magic. Its just magical biology.
    The problem is that this indirectly implies transgender people don't exist in the WoT, if not a single one has ever channeled the wrong power, thus revealing that they have a soul contrary to their body. And that's the positive interpretation; the negative one is that it implies that they're wrong about being transgender.

    Fortunately, that's a pretty easy fix. Throw in a nobinary character, or reference one in the past, whose access to the One Power matches their gender identity.
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    The one single clear and easy change to make would jut to say that if a trans person is capable of channeling they channel as what they identify as. Which probably works well enough I guess. Try not to think to hard about all the trans men going insane channeling the male half of the one power and making people think that channelers of both genders are tainted? Or Trans women channeling just fine and making everyone even more confused. That feels like a plot hole but one that could probably be navigated easily enough? The other option would be to add in some lore clarifying that a persons internal gender and physical appearance always match due to the nature of the setting and its magic, or at least that that is how it works if you channel with normal trans people existing outside that dynamic. Which probably looks to much like just erasing trans people entirely to be allowed even if it simplifies the plot. Damn, now that I think about it that doesn't feel as easy and straight forward as I thought. I think I feel sorry for the people who's actual job it is to convert this stuff for the series.
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