Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Thomas Cardew]

I'll politely assume you missed my post.

It was Sanderson. The precise quote from Sanderson (Sep 24th, 2013, Steelheart release part) is:

He left about a hundred written pages and another hundred pages of notes specifically for the last book. It really depends on the given scene. In The Gathering Storm, if it was [Egwene] it was either written by him or from his notes and if it was Rand it was mostly me. In Towers of Midnight, if it was Mat it was probably from his notes or written by him, he wrote the entire Tower of Ghenjei sequence. But if it was Perrin it was me. He had nothing on him except leaving Malden and being in the Last Battle, so I had to fill in everything in between. In the final book, meeting at the Fields of Merrilor was him and the very last chapter, which became the epilogue, was him and a lot of the rest was me.

[Saph]

What Thomas said.

If you read Perrin's Tel'aran'rhiod scenes in Book 4 (written by Jordan), and his Tel'aran'rhiod scenes in books 12-14 (written by Sanderson), the difference is really noticeable. In both confrontations Perrin goes up against Isam/Slayer, but they play out totally differently. In book 4 it's all about outthinking the opponent and catching them from ambush and choosing the right terrain – it's tense and quiet, like a sniper duel. In books 12-14 it's all superpowers and special effects and Matrix moves. Jordan spent lots of time working out the details of the magic in the Wheel of Time, but he's not focused on the mechanics of magic systems the way Sanderson is.

[Thomas Cardew]

Also for what it's worth regarding the Seanchan / Aiel future, that was explicitly entirely Sanderson. (October 1, 2014)

The glass pillars was me, as I believe some fans have already figured out. One of my big pitches to Harriet and company was that we needed to take risks and chances with these stories, because that's what RJ would have done. If we played it exactly safe, we would have a bland ending to the story.

We couldn't always take the same risks that RJ would have, but we needed to have a dynamic plot where characters, and the world, grew and became something different. They were very scared of this sequence during my pitch, but it's one that—when they read it—they were sold on it very quickly..

[Psyren]

I'll politely assume you missed my post.

I did miss that, so thank you.

As mentioned though, I liked the idea that Rand's "tripod" had its own unique Shadow "tripod" to deal with consisting of things new to this Age - Mat and Perrin born to protect Rand from several things, but chief among them Slayer and Shaisam. It mirrors WoT's trinity of constants quite well - the Pattern, TAR, and the True Source (Mat, Perrin, and Rand respectively). Positioning Perrin to deal with that out of necessity involved him being pretty skilled with the dream world, and even back in TGH Verin mentions that past Dreamers learned from wolves. So I have no problems with Sanderson having fleshed out that part of his ability set.

To round out the last comment though - while we have no way of knowing what Jordan considered problematic and whether it matched up with my perspective, I daresay it's Amazon's perspective that matters the most now since they purchased the rights.

[CharonsHelper]

So I have no problems with Sanderson having fleshed out that part of his ability set.

He didn't just flesh it out. He ramped it up to 11 - which is pretty much Sanderson's schtick. It was annoying IMO, as it seemed to contradict earlier books.

I mean, sure Perrin would get better in the dream-world. But suddenly THAT much better out of the blue? It just felt odd.

[Psyren]

He didn't just flesh it out. He ramped it up to 11 - which is pretty much Sanderson's schtick. It was annoying IMO, as it seemed to contradict earlier books.

I mean, sure Perrin would get better in the dream-world. But suddenly THAT much better out of the blue? It just felt odd.

Wolves have been Dreamers longer than anyone, and that includes even the Forsaken. TAR is their home. Perrin had basically the best teacher(s) in this Age, perhaps even any Age.

And the whole point of TAR is that your strength there is based on what you know to be true deep down (your mind makes it real). Even before Sanderson we saw that with a much weaker Nynaeve (she was using a channel ter'angreal at the time) beat Moghedien there simply by outsmarting her in TFoH.

So in short - no, I found nothing strange or off-putting about it. There are still things actual Dreamwalkers can do that Perrin can't - like pull people out of their dreams into TAR, or travel in the Gap between sleeping and TAR to leave messages, or see visions without being in TAR proper - but Shayol Ghul being in both places at once and therefore Perrin being extremely strong there makes sense.

[Thomas Cardew]

Eh, it's a personal scale for what 'feels' right or wrong but Sanderson called out Gateways and the World of Dreams were he delibrately pushed the magic system further.

Being a fan for so long, there was a danger that I would come in and say, "Well, this is my chance to fix all the things that have bugged me about the Wheel of Time." But I realized I couldn't approach the story like that.

Robert Jordan handles magic systems in a different way from how I handle a lot of mine. He works harder to preserve the sense of wonder than I do. I explain more nuts and bolts. He reserves the right to say, "We don't know how this works." I had to tell myself my job is not to change that. That's how his magic works, and it works really well like that. Even though on the Sanderson's First Law scale, it is much more to the middle than mine are. Mine are on the right side (right meaning direction-wise, not correctness-wise), where his is more toward the middle and Tolkien is more toward the left side. And I didn't want to push it.

The balance that I struck is, I was going to do my best to avoid a lot of new weaves [different kinds of magic], and I was going to take the existing weaves and push them further along the scale than I would let myself [in my own books]. The two instances are what happens in the world of dreams and gateways. I told myself, I am going to play with these two parts of the magic systems and let myself do some of the fun things I will do with magic. I am not going to spend a lot of time inventing new parts of the magic.

Also:

As far as the gateways, I felt it wouldn't be realistic otherwise. I've wanted to do with gateways since I was a kid, doing things like I showed in the book. If I had them, what would I do with them? I asked this when I was a kid, so there was a lot that I wanted to do with gateways that were in my own notes that I wanted to do that I couldn't do in my own books, so I stayed away from things that the Wheel of Time had done. So when I got to write WoT I broke out those files. The gloves were off; it was time to do things that I wanted to do but didn't want to rip off the Wheel of Time. At the end of the day, I convinced them to do it. They kept saying "they're all over the place!" so I said "if you could use them, you'd use them a lot". I didn't intend it to be a shout out of any kind, it's things I've wanted to do with gateways for like 15 years. It wasn't a shout out to the fandom. It's been an interesting experience. A lot of people think that I just wrote what the fans thought, but it's things that I felt the characters and the world would do, and if the fans happened to have talked about it, it's because it's what I thought would happen. In fact, as I wrote the books, I read very little of the fandom in order to prevent those exact thoughts from taking root

Also since I found this quote while looking for the above.

Though I wanted to be careful not to overdo the concept, one of my goals in these last few books was to bring back ideas and conflicts from the first books—creating parallels and emphasizing the cyclical nature of the Wheel of Time. Again, this was dangerous. I didn't want these books to become a series of in-jokes, homages, and repetitions.

However, there are places where it was not only appropriate, but vital that we return to these themes. I felt one of those involved the Whitecloaks and Perrin, specifically the two Children of the Light he had killed during his clash with them in the very first book. [...]

I had other goals for Perrin in this book. His experiences in the Wolf Dream needed to return, I felt, and push toward a final climax in the Last Hunt. This meant returning to a confrontation with Slayer, a mirrored character to Perrin with a dual nature. I wanted to highlight Perrin's instinctive use of his powers, as a contrast to the thoughtful, learned use of power represented by Egwene. People have asked if I think Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than Egwene. I don't think he is, the balefire-bending scene notwithstanding. They represent two sides of a coin, instinct and learning. In some cases Perrin will be more capable, and in others Egwene will shine. [...]

Of all the major plot sequences in the books, Perrin's was the one where I had the most freedom—but also the most danger of straying too far from Robert Jordan's vision for who the character should be. His instructions for Perrin focused almost entirely on the person Perrin would be after the Last Battle, with little or no direction on how to bring him there. Perrin was fully in my hands, and I wanted to take extra care to guide my favorite character toward the ending.

So your read of Perrin surpassing Egwene was an unintended effect of Sanderson playing with his favorite character. Not something RJ was trying to implement.

[Psyren]

So your read of Perrin surpassing Egwene was an unintended effect of Sanderson playing with his favorite character. Not something RJ was trying to implement.

Again though, if that's not Perrin's destiny, then his arc basically ends in the 2R, plus or minus a few hundred pages of wife angst. If that's truly what RJ intended, then I think less of his plan for it.

[Thomas Cardew]

I'd need to go back and reread things to make sure I got the order right but my feeling is that Perrin's arc was supposed to end in the 2R.
At that point he's made peace with his wolf self and his budding ruler-ship, at that point he's completed his arc and is supposed to go back and help Rand. The entire slog of chasing his was supposed to BE a slog because it was Perrin abdicating his duty. He was supposed to be with Rand during those sections, not chasing his wife. I can't remember if it's in Knife of Dreams (e.g RJ) or later (Sanderson) were he thinks about how selfish he had been during that time.
The wife angst is supposed to show how even the heroes can get distracted. I think it's by far the worst executed plotline in the book, but I think it's closer to what he intend.

[Anteros]

Also, it's just wrong to say that the Seanchan are based on a single real-world society. The Seanchan are a mixture of ancient China and Imperial Japan, with a lot of elements of the Roman Empire, a racial mix that's probably fairly close to modern Brazil, and a Texan accent to top it off.

You have to do some REALLY selective editing to look at that mishmash and say "oh, they're obviously supposed to be real-world country X". Though I'm sure lots of people will try!

Well that kind of selective cherry picking for the sake of manufacturing outrage is kinda the whole point of the thread after all.

Again though, if that's not Perrin's destiny, then his arc basically ends in the 2R, plus or minus a few hundred pages of wife angst. If that's truly what RJ intended, then I think less of his plan for it.

Or maybe he had another plan for the character that we didn't get to see because he died? You don't think that's even a possibility? I don't think anyone is disputing that Perrin had a planned arc where he defeats Slayer in the world of dreams. They're just stating that he probably wouldn't have suddenly turned into Neo if Jordan wrote it.

I suppose we should just be thankful Sanderson didn't just randomly give those scenes to his Mary-Sue insert Androl like he did with so many others, no matter how poor the execution was.

[Psyren]

Or maybe he had another plan for the character that we didn't get to see because he died? You don't think that's even a possibility?

Sure, anything's possible, but aside from learning the rules of TAR I'm not seeing a lot else that was set up for Perrin and not fully paid off in some way. "Reluctant lord" certainly was, as was the (painful) love triangle.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Perrin had a planned arc where he defeats Slayer in the world of dreams. They're just stating that he probably wouldn't have suddenly turned into Neo if Jordan wrote it.

I suppose we should just be thankful Sanderson didn't just randomly give those scenes to his Mary-Sue insert Androl like he did with so many others, no matter how poor the execution was.

I agree that Androl was too bland a character to get as much screentime as he did. Though I do think the strategy he enabled - having the more pacifist among the Ogier participate in the Last Battle by basically sitting on a bunch of Dreadlords until long after it was over - was fairly brilliant.

[Mechalich]

I agree that Androl was too bland a character to get as much screentime as he did. Though I do think the strategy he enabled - having the more pacifist among the Ogier participate in the Last Battle by basically sitting on a bunch of Dreadlords until long after it was over - was fairly brilliant.

Androl also filled a necessary role. Once Logain left the Black Tower to run around with Rand that left the Tower devoid of a loyalist capable of challenging Taim's control from the inside. Because such a role was absolutely necessary for victory in the Last Battle, a character like Androl had to be invented. A more complete plan would have probably kept Logain in the Black Tower to fill that function and put someone else in his place next to Rand, but it didn't, so new viewpoint character. It's not the first or only time. The Black Ajah purge is conducted by a random group of Aes Sedai who no one cares about and whose names no one even recalls, yet it's an important subplot. And Talamanes gets to be a viewpoint character near the end simply because Mat can't be in two places at once.

Sanderson did get indulgent with Androl, to be sure - though Gateways are an absurdly powerful form of magic and Jordan was the one who wrote himself into a corner by creating the rule 'shadowspawn cannot pass through a gateway' which drastically limited how the Last Battle could occur.

[Psyren]

I mean, without that rule things get ridiculous fast. Forget Trollocs and Myrdraal, stick a few Darkhounds or Draghkar and Grey Men in the back line and the Light squad doesn't stand a chance.

[Gnoman]

Technically there's nothing saying that Grey Men couldn't go through a Gateway - they're just humans without souls, not Shadowspawn.

[Traab]

Honestly, with perrin i feel that after he united the two rivers and accepted that he was in charge, there could have been some work where his area of authority grows to a certain extent, THEN he goes back to rand, as one of his loyal kings/lords/whatever to provide reliable backing in the inevitable games of politics. Having a larger and more varied power base to work from would have been a big help for Rand during the middle books. The Aeil being on his side was of course a huge boost, but having even more countries he could rely on for loyalty would have given him that much more umph, and perrin learning to deal with the snake pit of noble politics would have given Faile more of value to do as a character as well. I never finished the series, I think I read book 9 or 10 and that was it, its been so long I cant remember. So I cant speak on end game content. But I picture it with Rand being the Overlord, Matt being his General, and Perrin being one of his various Lords. It makes all three important in different ways and shows why the three have to be together if rand is going to win. Admittedly even that way Perrin seems to come off as distinctly third place in the trio. He doesnt exactly rule a vast nation or anything, but there is a certain symbolic image to perrin being the leader of their home during the final battle.

[Psyren]

Tangentially relevant:

For those curious about Rosamund Pike (Moiraine's) acting chops and wanting to see her in something recent, she's the star of movie Radioactive, a historical biopic drama centered around the life and accomplishments of Marie Curie, that was released on Amazon Prime last week. Seeing her in that made me extra-excited to see her as Moiraine.