Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[lord_khaine]

But how do you not see then that differentiating channeling by gender is akin to differentiating minds by gender? Especially when it comes to aspects like differences in strength and control and capability, that's a really bizarre message for a work to be delivering, whether it is wholly unintentional or Mr. Jordan's own beliefs. That is why an adaptation would be obligated to, if not change it outright, at the very least tone it down or leave some of those aspects vague/unstated.

As one example - "Women are weaker than men" is unnecessary, when "these women are weaker than these men" accomplishes the same plot objective without the arbitrary generalization.

Ahh.. i see the issue now.
I do in fact see differentiating channeling by gender as being akin to differentiating minds by gender. I just dont have a problem with that.
And it confuses me that people would have a problem with that. As far as i have been able to observe, minds are differentiated by gender.

While regarding the difference in strenght, and ability to to form links. Well they are also important parts of the world building.
For a start its part of the ying/yang symbolism in the world. Different but alike, strongest together.
Its also important for why male channelers are such a big issue. And require teams to be taken down.

You're proving my point here - the mere fact that you unquestioningly describe variations/permutations in chromosomal expression as "errors" is the very problem that this aspect of the story is reinforcing - consciously or not. Anyone doing an adaptation of the story today would do well to put more thought into this aspect of the story than the original author did.

Actually im not. Your just reading what you want to read here. When i say Chromosome errors, then i MEAN chromosome errors, like the XXY genotype.
And no, i would not expect any fantasy author to have to waste time thinking about stuff like that.

Not that one, the one in my extended sig (was too big for the regular one.)

Ah yes i see that one. I would like to say something really negative about it.
But will have to settle for that said person is of course entitled to his own oppinion on the subject.

Except it did - the type of bending you get is no longer dependent on a specific bloodline or tribe. Open and shut, change to the magic system to remove unfortunate implications.

It did not. As far as i can tell you are refering to a single act of divine intervention.
All the same im also missing the unfortunate implication here.
So magic runs in specific bloodlines. And thats.. bad.. ? because of reasons..?

[Traab]

Harry Potter is a SUPER dark setting once you get past the first few books. We have memory erasure, mind control, love potions, shapeshifting potions, all to ensure that alastor moody was, if anything, taking the threat lightly with his so called constant vigilance. Its a setting where paranoia should run rampant. Every bruise you have you have to question because you cant be sure you fell down or were just memory charmed to think that after something heinous took place. Any moment that you lose track of may be an obliviation where who knows whats going on. Everything you eat or drink could contain something easily buyable at JOKE SHOPS to make you WANT to sleep with anybody at random who took an interest in you and has 5 sickles to spend for a quick roll. Thats at least as horrifying as roofies, maybe more, im honestly unsure as to what would be worse when you wake up from the effects. This doesnt even get into the openly tyrannical dictatorship laughingly calling itself a ministry. The corruption is so complete, so open, that nobody even bothers to shrug at it anymore, its just the way things are when you can go into a courtroom with 100 judges, have an airtight case, and 3/4 of them will ignore all of it to vote however they want to just because it matches their current goals to do so and there are no repercussions for ignoring the law utterly.

[druid91]

Except it did - the type of bending you get is no longer dependent on a specific bloodline or tribe. Open and shut, change to the magic system to remove unfortunate implications.



There are plenty of other threads to relitigate new Star Wars in; my point is that the specific deficiency of their magic system that you're complaining about is being changed, so they actually agree with you.



This is unrelated to the magic system regardless of which HP franchise you mean.

Not really? A group of new people were given the ability to Air Bend. This doesn't and didn't imply that now just anyone can become any type of bending.

Furthermore it was Korra that gave us Bolin. Who specifically can't metal bend, but can Lavabend because his mother is from the fire nation.


And the series is worse off for the change. I'm not saying it was a change that needed to be made. I'm saying it's an unfortunate implication that doesn't matter.

And the fact that it's unrelated to the magic system dodges the point how? Stories with any interesting elements often have unfortunate implications.

[tiornys]

Ahh.. i see the issue now.
I do in fact see differentiating channeling by gender as being akin to differentiating minds by gender. I just dont have a problem with that.
And it confuses me that people would have a problem with that. As far as i have been able to observe, minds are differentiated by gender.

Minds are differentiated by gender, yes, but in more than just two ways. This is why, if we're going to tie One Power access to some sense of being male/female, I'd rather tie it to biological sex. And unlike Psyren I do think it's important to keep that tie.

[Psyren]

Spoiler

Show

Ahh.. i see the issue now.
I do in fact see differentiating channeling by gender as being akin to differentiating minds by gender. I just dont have a problem with that.
And it confuses me that people would have a problem with that. As far as i have been able to observe, minds are differentiated by gender.

While regarding the difference in strenght, and ability to to form links. Well they are also important parts of the world building.
For a start its part of the ying/yang symbolism in the world. Different but alike, strongest together.
Its also important for why male channelers are such a big issue. And require teams to be taken down.



Actually im not. Your just reading what you want to read here. When i say Chromosome errors, then i MEAN chromosome errors, like the XXY genotype.
And no, i would not expect any fantasy author to have to waste time thinking about stuff like that.



Ah yes i see that one. I would like to say something really negative about it.
But will have to settle for that said person is of course entitled to his own oppinion on the subject.



It did not. As far as i can tell you are refering to a single act of divine intervention.
All the same im also missing the unfortunate implication here.
So magic runs in specific bloodlines. And thats.. bad.. ? because of reasons..?

...Given that you and I appear to be diametrically opposed on just about every point, I'm not sure there's much else I can say.

Not really? A group of new people were given the ability to Air Bend. This doesn't and didn't imply that now just anyone can become any type of bending.

Including people not related to the Air Nomads, yes.

Furthermore it was Korra that gave us Bolin. Who specifically can't metal bend, but can Lavabend because his mother is from the fire nation.

Bolin and lavabending existed before LoK changed the magic system to move it away from being bloodline-dependent.

And the series is worse off for the change.

Disagree.

And the fact that it's unrelated to the magic system dodges the point how? Stories with any interesting elements often have unfortunate implications.

Your other examples (Avatar and Star Wars) involved subsequent authors altering the magic system to remove unfortunate implications that the original creators either didn't intend or didn't think through, creating dissonance with modern sensibilities. That's exactly what I'm asking for here.

The Harry Potter example is just "many wizards are jerks to non-wizards, even unintentionally" - which, while certainly a true statement, has nothing to do with the magic system itself.

[Sapphire Guard]

So if we did change the story, what do we do about saidin's violent insanity?

If there's a way to switch between saidir and saidin, many men will try to take it to avoid their fate, requiring some kind of distinction between who is 'really' trans or not, which comes with a gigantic pile of unfortunate implications.

If there isn't, then we kind of have the same problem, because we are left with people that might want to change, but can't because their soul is the gender they don't want to be.

So what does our new magic system look like?

[Dragonus45]

So if we did change the story, what do we do about saidin's violent insanity?

If there's a way to switch between saidir and saidin, many men will try to take it to avoid their fate, requiring some kind of distinction between who is 'really' trans or not, which comes with a gigantic pile of unfortunate implications.

If there isn't, then we kind of have the same problem, because we are left with people that might want to change, but can't because their soul is the gender they don't want to be.

So what does our new magic system look like?

There is also the issues in the plot caused by the presence of "female" channelers going mad from being trans men chaneling saidin mucking up some of the issues with peoples distrust of the White Tower. In the story proper it was generally clear that even when they had the best of intentions the Aes Sedai were almost incapable of just being straight forward and helpful and had done a lot to deserve the paranoia people felt around them. Once you toss in too the common folk the idea that all channelers can go mad ontop of that you suddenly get a setting where the White Cloaks and Seanchan don't seem as unreasonable, and any plot change that makes Seanchan look good is bad by default because **** them and everything about them and their a'dam friendly culture.

[Psyren]

So if we did change the story, what do we do about saidin's violent insanity?

If there's a way to switch between saidir and saidin, many men will try to take it to avoid their fate, requiring some kind of distinction between who is 'really' trans or not, which comes with a gigantic pile of unfortunate implications.

If there isn't, then we kind of have the same problem, because we are left with people that might want to change, but can't because their soul is the gender they don't want to be.

So what does our new magic system look like?

As I mentioned a few times now, you don't actually have to change it for the majority of the story. If people believe the side they have access to is tied to a gender/sex binary, then they will believe they only have the one option; and even if they believe accessing both is theoretically possible they may simply not know where to begin. The separation itself could even be strengthened/reinforced by the taint in some way.

As we see elsewhere in the story, erroneous beliefs about channeling might as well be universal laws for most people - whether it is wilders who develop mental blocks against conscious access, or even full-fledged Aes Sedai who learn to weave in a specific and rigid way that isn't actually necessary (see the Aes Sedai fireball vs. Wise Ones fireball example.)

To summarize: having the binary separation exist for most of the runtime but ultimately be proven a lie would solve this issue with minimal changes to the existing story. All the story beats about Rand not being able to learn to channel from any Aes Sedai, the omnicultural distrust of male channelers due to their "side" being tainted, and several societies becoming matriarchal because of their female channelers would remain the same. Then all they'd have to do would be to mitigate or remove some of the more arbitrary gender-related attributes of channeling like men being completely unable to link and bam, done. (Men being unable to link on their own doesn't make sense in any event - they invented the Ways didn't they? Are they saying one guy did all that?)

[Dragonus45]

To summarize: having the binary separation exist for most of the runtime but ultimately be proven a lie would solve this issue with minimal changes to the existing story.

Other then the bit where in the larger sense the entire plot got kicked off because they dug into the dark ones prison during an age of enlightenment and knowledge explicitly to find a source of power both genders could use. Or the bit where the very concept of the genders tapping into different dual facets of the power the Creator used to make the world is core to themes of the story from the ground up.

[Seppl]

Coming back to the main question: Is it a good idea to remake the work, changing the problematic aspects? Is the story that remains even worth telling any more?

I would say the main themes and plot points of the story are as follows. I am also marking the potentially problematic points from a modern perspective:

1. Theme: There are two kinds of people
   
   • This divide does not just apply to magic users, and the difference is immediately outwardly apparent and hard to conceal.
     Plot point: A lot of the plot is driven by the prejudices of one group against the other.
     Potentially problematic: Prejudice is never good but this point is remedied by Theme 3.
     Potentially problematic: The divide is along gender lines and absolutely binary.
   • The divide is not only in outward appearance but also in attitude.
     Plot point: This is the main driver for theme 2.
     Problematic: This links outside factors to inside character. This is probably the most problematic part from a modern perspective.
2. Theme: These two groups have a hard time understanding each other
   
   • Problematic: One group is associated with very traditional masculine values (strength, domination, leadership, …), the other with very traditional feminine values (empathy, submission, guidance, …).
     Plot point: The incompatibility between these sets of values drives a lot of the plot and themes.
   • Plot point: Things have gotten really bad between those groups because they have been driven apart for so long. The divide seems natural and insurmountable now, but in the beginning they were driven apart by a major magical catastrophe.
   • Minor theme: The conflict is also mirrored in the personal relations between the characters.
3. Theme: They can achieve great things if they overcome their differences and work together
   
   • Plot point: They manage, in the end.

So, what are our options? And what is even the kind of story that we want to tell?

The main message of the original story is a pretty standard "we have to overcome our prejudices and work together". If we take away the part about the prejudices and the reasons for those prejudices, we take away the main message of the story. In that case, there is no need to even adapt The Wheel of Time, we are telling a completely unrelated story.

What if we use some other kind of divide instead of gender? It must be something that is apparent enough to allow prejudices to fester and be easily applied, otherwise a lot of the plot does not work. "Race" is the first thing that comes to mind, and we would still have a decent message for the overall story that makes it worth telling, albeit a bit more generic. But we did not address the link between the division and the (in the world of WoT) very real link to character traits. Choosing "race" as the dividing factor and ascribing different character traits to different races is even more problematic! At least with the gender divide the link to character traits is grounded in parallels to the real world, especially the world as it was in the 1980s when the books were first conceived. Also, if we go for anything but gender, the minor theme of the mirrored conflict in-between the couples would not work.

So what if we get rid of the link of gender to character traits? Beats me, I do not see how the story can still work. A lot of the plot is driven by the fact that the men and women in the story do not understand each other because they do actually have different world views. If someone has a good idea, I would like to hear it. Or we could concede that the overall message of a male/female conflict is outdated in 2020. In which case the story is just not worth adapting.

So, what if we change what kind of character traits men and women are associated with? Here we run into the problem how relevant we want our story to be for the real world. After all, if the story does not tell us something about the real world, why is it worth telling? The character traits associated with the male and female halves of the Source in WoT are grounded in the stereotypical male/female role models of the 1980s. And, let's face it: Which have not been overcome completely even today. So if we want the story to be relevant to the real world, these traits should reflect what we experience today. I would say, that is all the more reason to either keep it as it is, or not tell the story at all. The most problematic trait is probably the domination/submission pairing. Maybe just get rid of that and keep the others? That might work but weakens the overall theme and message.

[Psyren]

Other then the bit where in the larger sense the entire plot got kicked off because they dug into the dark ones prison during an age of enlightenment and knowledge explicitly to find a source of power both genders could use. Or the bit where the very concept of the genders tapping into different dual facets of the power the Creator used to make the world is core to themes of the story from the ground up.

But that's exactly the point - The "age of enlightenment and knowledge" as you call it, was anything but. It was just as barbaric as the current age in several ways if not moreso. For example, rather than actually attempt to treat or rehabilitate any of their criminals or dangerous deviants, they simply enslaved their minds with Oath Rods ("binders") to keep them from performing certain activities (cutting their lifespans in the process), or just lobotomized them entirely to solve the problem - prospective punishments that drove several of the Forsaken to enlist with the Shadow in the first place. In addition, the current Age discovered several things about The Power that the Age of Legends thought were impossible, such as healing severance, or unweaving without destroying everything in a hundred miles. Even the a'dam, as horrible a tool for coercing channelers as it is, is brand-new this Age. That the AoL was ignorant of any truths regarding channeling doesn't mean anything.

So, what if we change what kind of character traits men and women are associated with? Here we run into the problem how relevant we want our story to be for the real world. After all, if the story does not tell us something about the real world, why is it worth telling? The character traits associated with the male and female halves of the Source in WoT are grounded in the stereotypical male/female role models of the 1980s. And, let's face it: Which have not been overcome completely even today.

That's my point exactly. But the most important difference is that those models are driven by cultural and societal preconceptions - not by scientific, universal, or metaphysical truths. Our understanding of gender in the 1980s or even the 1990s is not sufficient to carry portrayals of a gender-based magic system in 2020 or beyond. If Amazon really wants to adapt this work (and purchasing the TV rights to it suggests that they do) that's something they'll want to take a look at.

[druid91]

Including people not related to the Air Nomads, yes.

Bolin and lavabending existed before LoK changed the magic system to move it away from being bloodline-dependent.

Disagree.

Your other examples (Avatar and Star Wars) involved subsequent authors altering the magic system to remove unfortunate implications that the original creators either didn't intend or didn't think through, creating dissonance with modern sensibilities. That's exactly what I'm asking for here.

The Harry Potter example is just "many wizards are jerks to non-wizards, even unintentionally" - which, while certainly a true statement, has nothing to do with the magic system itself.

And my point was not related to magic systems but to stories. As I've said, I literally don't know how magic in a Wheel of Time works. It doesn't matter how magic works in wheel of time because it's just a plot point. Wheel of Time magic does not somehow exist separately from the story told using it as a plot device. Hence why Harry potter was brought up.

And yes. The Air Nomads got magic from a giant lion turtle, like all other benders. These new Air-benders are new air benders There is nothing to imply that their abilities aren't inheritable anymore, and nothing to imply that random people will continue to receive random bending powers without inheriting them. It's an infusion of power via spirit magic. Just like each of the original benders. Your point doesn't make sense because you're reading something into the plot that isn't there.

No? I mean, Bolin existed. But the plot point of him being A.) Unable to learn Metalbending and B.) Able to Lavabend. Don't come about until season 3. Well after Harmonic Convergence and the plot point of the new air nation. As for Lavabending, the only times we ever see lava bending prior is with Gazan, and the Avatars. Gazan, we don't know much if anything about. And the Avatars can do anything because plot.

The new trilogy is a disjointed mess of terrible. It's an actively offensive mess. I honestly didn't notice or care that they made some subtle change to the 'denying your emotions being the way' because I was too busy being baffled by the lack of a sensible plot. If that's your idea of successfully updating a stories magic system to modern standards, then I can see why people attached to the wheel of time would be concerned.

But that's my point, and it appears to be a point you just don't want to get.

[Psyren]

And my point was not related to magic systems but to stories. As I've said, I literally don't know how magic in a Wheel of Time works.

My ultimate point is that a story is more than its magic system.

The entire series is on Google Books, though you may want to wait for a sale like I did. Issues aside it's still a great read.

And yes. The Air Nomads got magic from a giant lion turtle, like all other benders. These new Air-benders are new air benders There is nothing to imply that their abilities aren't inheritable anymore, and nothing to imply that random people will continue to receive random bending powers without inheriting them. It's an infusion of power via spirit magic. Just like each of the original benders. Your point doesn't make sense because you're reading something into the plot that isn't there.

Bold is flat-out wrong - new non-hereditary benders continue to pop up throughout Books 3 and 4, long after Harmonic Convergence has come and gone. Even the beginning of Book 3 takes place weeks after Harmonic Convergence has concluded, so it's demonstrably not due to a one-time "burst of spirit energy" that coincided with that singular event.

No? I mean, Bolin existed. But the plot point of him being A.) Unable to learn Metalbending and B.) Able to Lavabend. Don't come about until season 3. Well after Harmonic Convergence and the plot point of the new air nation. As for Lavabending, the only times we ever see lava bending prior is with Gazan, and the Avatars. Gazan, we don't know much if anything about. And the Avatars can do anything because plot.

Neither point regarding Bolin has anything to do with the state of the world post-Convergence. Bolin got his powers from heredity back when that was the only way to get your powers, and may still even be the most common way, but it's no longer the only way, as evidenced by characters like Daw.

But that's my point, and it appears to be a point you just don't want to get.

I understand your point, I just disagree with it. And again, there are other threads to talk about the new Star Wars trilogy if that's what you want to do; I'm only addressing the specific aspect of its magic system you brought up, that is no longer true.

[Traab]

Meh, at this point I say, if wheel of time is so offensive to you that the only way you would be interested in it is by changing all the fundamental aspects that make it what it is, you arent interested in wheel of time, go write your own magical world where gender based magic both exists, and has 71 different variants depending on how you identify (did a quick google dive, that was the first number other than 2 I saw so I apologize if my total is wrong) everything is equitable, for every boob described there is a dangly bit imagined, and there are no underlying stereotypes of any sort somehow.

Its one thing to want to tweak specific scenes or character interactions, but this need to alter the fundamentals pillars the story and its world are built on is just not right. You are basically saying, "I would like this story if it wasnt this story." And no, trying to insist that the change coming out of left field at the end of the story and somehow it will all make sense doesnt work.

[Sapphire Guard]

If the distinction between saidar and saidin is in people's minds, why is saidin corrupted while saidar is not, regardless of what people believe?

I think that's the core question we need to have an answer for to make this work.

[Traab]

If the distinction between saidar and saidin is in people's minds, why is saidin corrupted while saidar is not, regardless of what people believe?

I think that's the core question we need to have an answer for to make this work.

Thats the thing, the version some of these guys want is, if you were born a man but identify as a woman, thats enough to let you channel the female half of the power instead and vice versa. Think of them like bathrooms, men use the mens room, women use the womens room, if you identify as the other gender, you can use that bathroom instead. Doesnt mean the womens room isnt still a pestilential stink hole of horror (sorry, ex janitor here, womens rooms are terrible at schools)

[Anteros]

I have never been so glad that someone is not in charge of a project as I am while reading this thread.

If you want to write fan fiction about the WoT to push your personal beliefs that's fine, but there's no reason it needs to be an official work. As others have said, write your own story if it means that much to you.

[Psyren]

Thats the thing, the version some of these guys want is, if you were born a man but identify as a woman, thats enough to let you channel the female half of the power instead and vice versa. Think of them like bathrooms, men use the mens room, women use the womens room, if you identify as the other gender, you can use that bathroom instead. Doesnt mean the womens room isnt still a pestilential stink hole of horror (sorry, ex janitor here, womens rooms are terrible at schools)

I've already said I don't think it needs to be to gender at all (by the end, at least). For one thing, there are more than two of those. And for two, some aspects (like users of one half being inherently weaker) make mapping the difference to gender problematic.

If the distinction between saidar and saidin is in people's minds, why is saidin corrupted while saidar is not, regardless of what people believe?

I think that's the core question we need to have an answer for to make this work.

There can be a tangible distinction between them. The part I think should be in people's minds (i.e. ultimately false) is gender being the inviolate reason for that distinction. That's the part I hope they revisit in an adaptation.

[tiornys]

I've already said I don't think it needs to be to gender at all (by the end, at least). For one thing, there are more than two of those. And for two, some aspects (like users of one half being inherently weaker) make mapping the difference to gender problematic.



There can be a tangible distinction between them. The part I think should be in people's minds (i.e. ultimately false) is gender being the inviolate reason for that distinction. That's the part I hope they revisit in an adaptation.

As I read your complaints, I see two main themes. One, you don't like the fact that mapping two halves of a power to sex/gender implies a binary. Two, you don't like various implications that can be drawn from the ways the two halves of the power differ from each other.

How, in your mind, does my proposal fail to address these issues?

[Psyren]

How, in your mind, does my proposal fail to address these issues?

Sure - I addressed this previously and it led to what seemed like an impasse, apologies if you had more to add. I'll quote the relevant bits:

Spoiler

Show

Aran'gar isn't the only problem this approach creates though. Because by making the Power tied to biological sex characteristics in this way, the metaphor for linking moves away from joining minds/emotions, and becomes joining bodies. That's bad enough on its own, but then you layer on yet more arbitrary RJ weirdness in the magic system, like a man needing to control the link (except for the FMF configuration for some reason), and women being unable to end it or stop giving consent for it on her/their own.

I don't agree those are problems with the approach. But to be clear, I'm proposing that access to the power be tied to biological sex. Use of the power can still be the domain of the mind/spirit/soul.

Would you categorize rules like "women are inherently weaker than men" and "men can't link" and "women who link with a man can't voluntarily terminate that link, but men can" under access, or use?

I'd have those be properties of Saidin and Saidar.

Gotcha. I wouldn't.

To expand on my last answer:

- I don't think "all users of saidar are inherently weaker than those of saidin" adds anything to the narrative that "saidin users in this Age are generally stronger" doesn't.
- I don't think "it's impossible for saidin users to link without a saidar user" adds anything that can't be added by "both users can link, but only saidar users remember how."
- I don't think "a saidin user must be in control any link they're part of" adds anything that can't be added by "either user can control a link, but once the controller is chosen, passing control to a different type of user is difficult or takes precious time."

All three of those changes are minor and allow the same narrative objectives as their predecessors to be accomplished, without the weird implications.


As far as differences between the powers that I would keep - obviously the Taint being on one half because the saidin-users tried to fix the world on their own would be the big one. Saidin being more difficult to detect by saidar-users than the reverse is fine (if a bit arbitrary) as is the stronger elements by side thing. The weaving techniques thing can be there (such as saidin travelling requiring drilling a hole, while saidar traveling involves folding two spaces and making them similar), though it might be pointless to spell out in a tv show format because it doesn't stop either side from casting the same spells, it's purely minutiae.

[dancrilis]

- I don't think "all users of saidar are inherently weaker than those of saidin" adds anything to the narrative that "saidin users in this Age are generally stronger" doesn't.
- I don't think "it's impossible for saidin users to link without a saidar user" adds anything that can't be added by "both users can link, but only saidar users remember how."
- I don't think "a saidin user must be in control any link they're part of" adds anything that can't be added by "either user can control a link, but once the controller is chosen, passing control to a different type of user is difficult or takes precious time."

All three of those changes are minor and allow the same narrative objectives as their predecessors to be accomplished, without the weird implications.

What weird implications do they remove? - all the implications (whatever they are) would still seem to be there right up to just before the end.

It sounds like you would have the series follow the same format as the books, same narratives and same outcomes etc right up until the end and then you would go 'gotcha everything I told you was wrong' which doesn't seem to offer anything over doing the same without the gotcha and you avoid possibly annoying your decade long viewers with last minute revisions.

[Seppl]

To expand on my last answer:

- I don't think "all users of saidar are inherently weaker than those of saidin" adds anything to the narrative that "saidin users in this Age are generally stronger" doesn't.
- I don't think "it's impossible for saidin users to link without a saidar user" adds anything that can't be added by "both users can link, but only saidar users remember how."
- I don't think "a saidin user must be in control any link they're part of" adds anything that can't be added by "either user can control a link, but once the controller is chosen, passing control to a different type of user is difficult or takes precious time."

That sounds more like you should accept it as your own personal head-canon instead of rewriting anything. Not that there is anything to rewrite: The metaphysical reasons for those facts are never addressed in the books, you can make up any explanation you like and it will fit the book-canon.

Now, do you want to make your own explanations explicit in the adoption-canon because you are afraid that otherwise some people might make up their own explanations that you would not like?

[druid91]

My ultimate point is that a story is more than its magic system.

The entire series is on Google Books, though you may want to wait for a sale like I did. Issues aside it's still a great read.



Bold is flat-out wrong - new non-hereditary benders continue to pop up throughout Books 3 and 4, long after Harmonic Convergence has come and gone. Even the beginning of Book 3 takes place weeks after Harmonic Convergence has concluded, so it's demonstrably not due to a one-time "burst of spirit energy" that coincided with that singular event.



Neither point regarding Bolin has anything to do with the state of the world post-Convergence. Bolin got his powers from heredity back when that was the only way to get your powers, and may still even be the most common way, but it's no longer the only way, as evidenced by characters like Daw.



I understand your point, I just disagree with it. And again, there are other threads to talk about the new Star Wars trilogy if that's what you want to do; I'm only addressing the specific aspect of its magic system you brought up, that is no longer true.

... No, they continue to meet new benders after Harmonic Convergence has come and gone. In addition, how long do you think it takes them to find out that they can bend if it requires they experience a Bumi-esque 'moment of danger' to do so? Keep in mind, so far as we're aware all these people were non-benders before Harmonic Convergence. Furthermore, they keep talking about Harmonic Convergence as both something that happened in the past, and something that created the new airbenders.

Nothing whatsoever in the show implies anything like what you're saying. Daw in particular discovered his powers a week or two after Harmonic Convergence during a fight with his brother. A fight. AKA a situation where emotions were running high enough for accidental bending to happen. Keep in mind, most normal benders realize their power when they're young and emotions run high naturally. Now imagine trying to get into a similar situation when you're older, you run a shop with your brother and are generally less prone to emotional outbursts.

People didn't just magically realize 'I'm an airbender now.' They had to airbend to realize they were airbending. And most had no cause to try until emotions push them to do so accidentally.

People aren't just being harmonic convergenced at random. The Harmonic Convergence came. Some people were given the ability to airbend to restore balance. Then it went. Nothing implies just any old random person can get any old random bending forever after.

[Psyren]

What weird implications do they remove? - all the implications (whatever they are) would still seem to be there right up to just before the end.

It sounds like you would have the series follow the same format as the books, same narratives and same outcomes etc right up until the end and then you would go 'gotcha everything I told you was wrong' which doesn't seem to offer anything over doing the same without the gotcha and you avoid possibly annoying your decade long viewers with last minute revisions.

You'd avoid this the way you avoid all "gotchas" in writing - by foreshadowing.

That sounds more like you should accept it as your own personal head-canon instead of rewriting anything. Not that there is anything to rewrite: The metaphysical reasons for those facts are never addressed in the books, you can make up any explanation you like and it will fit the book-canon.

What do "facts" like "women are inherently weaker than men" add to the story? It doesn't end up mattering for any of the named characters, and it doesn't tell us anything useful about our own world - it's at best useless trivia, and actively harmful at worst.

[tiornys]

Sure - I addressed this previously and it led to what seemed like an impasse, apologies if you had more to add. I'll quote the relevant bits:

To expand on my last answer:

- I don't think "all users of saidar are inherently weaker than those of saidin" adds anything to the narrative that "saidin users in this Age are generally stronger" doesn't.
- I don't think "it's impossible for saidin users to link without a saidar user" adds anything that can't be added by "both users can link, but only saidar users remember how."
- I don't think "a saidin user must be in control any link they're part of" adds anything that can't be added by "either user can control a link, but once the controller is chosen, passing control to a different type of user is difficult or takes precious time."

All three of those changes are minor and allow the same narrative objectives as their predecessors to be accomplished, without the weird implications.

If you aren't changing anything in the story with these changes, then they are pointless. If you are foreshadowing these changes you are changing the story. If you're changing the story then you're changing the narrative objectives.

I don't think "Saidar users are individually less powerful than Saidin users" must necessarily create problems or weird implications, especially in conjunction with "Saidar users can combine power easier than Saidin users". I think it depends on the presentation. Therefore I see no compelling reason to diverge from the source material in these details. And to be clear, I believe it is important to stay close to the source material thematically, and these properties are important to the themes of Wheel of Time. If we're going to mess with anything thematic, we need a compelling reason, and we should strive to make the smallest changes possible.

The intricasies of who controls what kinds of links can be dropped. Those details aren't important because they don't contribute much to the story's themes and they essentially never come up in a plot-important way.

What do "facts" like "women are inherently weaker than men" add to the story? It doesn't end up mattering for any of the named characters, and it doesn't tell us anything useful about our own world - it's at best useless trivia, and actively harmful at worst.

Uh. A large part of why Rand is perceived as a threat is precisely because he is stronger than any of the (modern) Aes Sedai can hope to be. How is this not mattering for named characters?

[Corvus]

- I don't think "all users of saidar are inherently weaker than those of saidin" adds anything to the narrative that "saidin users in this Age are generally stronger" doesn't.

Been a while since I read the books, but wasn't it more along the lines that, while on average, male channellers could channel more raw power than female channellers (though there were plenty of female channellers stronger than male channellers), the female channellers had more finesse over their channelling on average.

[Anteros]

Been a while since I read the books, but wasn't it more along the lines that, while on average, male channellers could channel more raw power than female channellers (though there were plenty of female channellers stronger than male channellers), the female channellers had more finesse over their channelling on average.

Yes, although functionally it's almost never relevant. Also women are capable of linking their power together while men aren't.

[Psyren]

If you aren't changing anything in the story with these changes, then they are pointless.

But I am - just at the end. The end of a story is the most important part, as it sums up the theme and the takeaways for the audience. If the ending sucks then the journey doesn't matter - see also the reaction to Game of Thrones and the Matrix.

If you are foreshadowing these changes you are changing the story.

Obviously, but the question is how much? I would wager this approach wouldn't be enough to be a big deal for the traditionalists, but enough to matter a great deal to the modernists.

The intricasies of who controls what kinds of links can be dropped. Those details aren't important because they don't contribute much to the story's themes and they essentially never come up in a plot-important way.

See, like that We agree.

Uh. A large part of why Rand is perceived as a threat is precisely because he is stronger than any of the (modern) Aes Sedai can hope to be. How is this not mattering for named characters?

Rand can still be the strongest channeler in the world (he's the Dragon after all), without men being stronger. They're not the same thing.

Been a while since I read the books, but wasn't it more along the lines that, while on average, male channellers could channel more raw power than female channellers (though there were plenty of female channellers stronger than male channellers), the female channellers had more finesse over their channelling on average.

The "women are more dextrous" thing never comes up in any meaningful way, it can just be left out. You basically don't have to talk about male and female strength at all, just talk about the strength of individuals. I would also rerank the Forsaken slightly - Lanfear is canonically weaker than Asmodean, but reading the books you couldn't be blamed for thinking it was the reverse, because the story has her browbeating him every single time they're together.

[Mightymosy]

Matrix has one of the best endings ever, so not sure where you are going with that.

Oh, and it has a black aged woman turn out the master mind driving the good side of the plot behind the scenes, so shouldnt it be right up your alley?
Diversity and all

[Seppl]

What do "facts" like "women are inherently weaker than men" add to the story? It doesn't end up mattering for any of the named characters, and it doesn't tell us anything useful about our own world - it's at best useless trivia, and actively harmful at worst.

Yes. Then don't make a big deal of it. That is much better than highlighting these things in your adaption and giving a half-hearted explanation "this looks unfortunate but it is actually okay because…".

This is especially true for the three trivia you mentioned. Do they ever even come up in the main story or are they just from the appendix?

Is there ever a direct power struggle between a man and a woman of equal talent and training? As you say, no. And I agree. tiornys says it is important why Rand is so strong but Rand is the chosen hero of destiny, he can be strong for no good reason. And the Asha'man are strong because their training emphasises strength and combat readiness above all else even to the point of accepting that it will kill them soon. All in all, the power differences we see in the main characters stem mostly from different talent (or even magical destiny) or differences in training. There is no need to highlight that a man and a woman of equal talent and training would be different just because the appendix says so or because it is mentioned once in dialogue.

I think the only link mechanic that is important is that a circle cannot be too unbalanced. Which has actually positive implications. I do not think there is ever an instance in the story where two or more male channellers could have done something important by linking but were not able to because of the meta-physics. Similar with the leadership in a circle, I do not think there is ever an instance where they needed to switch control but could not. I think there was a circle where the man had to be the leader, but that man also happened to be the most powerful channeller in the world and thus was probably the most qualified for that position, anyway.

---

I would like to draw a comparison to the popular adoption of the LotR. The original book has multiple instances of both, dialogue and narration, explaining how the race of men from Numenor and their relatives are just naturally better than others, and how you can even (correctly) judge that someone is not a good person by how non-Numenorian they look. And this is even backed up as metaphysically true in the background material regarding the world-building. And has doubly unfortunate implications because these men just so happen to all look like Europeans, while their enemies are scolded for the colour of their skin and the shape of their eyes. So what did they do in the adaption? They don't mention it because it is not important to the story that the descendants of Numenor are actually a superior race of men in the world of Middle Earth. It is just a conflict of the heroes against the people allied to their enemy, because the enemy supreme commander is an evil overlord. The conflict is not called The Decline of the West. The people still look the same as they do in the books, and the general geography still checks out, Aragorn even calls his people "men of the west" once, but never does anyone say that you can tell a person's quality by looking at the purity of their ancestry.
(And then they bring out an extended edition that highlights the fact that Aragorn is 98 years old because he was just born a better person )