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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Not at all - no more than it would be a problem that your mind and personality is what determines whether you are a Light Side or Dark Side user of the Force, or which Robes you join up with in Dragonlance etc.
    In dragonlance which robes you were changing is not a major concern to the setting, nor is how you use the force in star wars (except the idea that the Dark Side is corruption).

    Imagine the following:
    There is a guy - never had a girly thought in his life.
    One day he channels saidin - a corrupting force that will drive him insane and have him hunted down.
    This causes him to have a break down.
    He flees home to protect the people he cares about, but he is no wilderness expert and he needs food and goods to live - so he starts a new life on the outskirts of a town, and just incase he every uses his unrefined power in public accidentally he seeks to protray himself as a woman, he chooses a woman's name, he dresses as a woman, he even mutilates himself to better appear female - and eventually castrates himself thinking that perhaps he can cut out the corrupting power.
    He lives like this for years - he even starts to believe it.
    One day he finds the power has changed and how he taps it has changed, now he channels saidar.
    He feels relieved - he is clean now, he doesn't need to worry anymore, but he starts to feel bad about never having children, abandoning his wife etc, he starts to for the first time in years remember who he used to be ... and he misses that person.
    This leads him to think that he might have two souls fighting within him - but he can balance them, he will allow his male soul to live his life and his female soul to work magic.

    Tada he has discovered a solution for everyone - no one needs to channel saidin any longer, they just need to discover their 'female mindset' and channel the power while in that mindset.

    Any roleplayer/actor/writter/etc who can get into character can do that - allowing mindsets that can change to determine the power one accesses breaks the setting.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Did Tauriel really do no harm?
    I'm not sure why you think I think she didn't, given I said I dislike how she was used. I think she could have been done in a way that did no harm, but I do not think she was actually done that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Changes the subject, to have someone refresh my memory.

    Is there a reason why we see no women Black Ajah or Forsaken to use Compulsion (or another means) to break an Aes Sedai or a Wilder who can "channel" and then use said broken women as a Saidar enhancing battery via linking?

    We do see both men and women Aes Sedai / Ashaman / Forsaken seeking out angreal and sanangreal to enhance their power, but with the women channelers it is so easy to create a link with another women, and you can then force yourself to be in control of the link if you are dirty and limit the abilities of the other women.

    -----

    I ask this for all the Male vs Women power battle things with strength of the power reminded me of this.
    Spoiler: Full WoT Series Spoilers
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    Black Ajah don't know Compulsion. Graendal absolutely does this during the battle at Shayol Ghul.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Is there a reason why we see no women Black Ajah or Forsaken to use Compulsion (or another means) to break an Aes Sedai or a Wilder who can "channel" and then use said broken women as a Saidar enhancing battery via linking?
    I am pretty sure there is a mention that just holding The Power is a good protection from all but the most powerful Compulsions. Maybe channeling also has a good chance of removing a compulsion. Another possible reason: High-level Compulsion are only used by the Forsaken, for them the power boost from linking with an average third-age channeler would not be worth the effort.
    We do see both men and women Aes Sedai / Ashaman / Forsaken seeking out angreal and sanangreal to enhance their power, but with the women channelers it is so easy to create a link with another women, and you can then force yourself to be in control of the link if you are dirty and limit the abilities of the other women.
    .
    With an (s)angreal the power is all yours, all the time. I is easy to use, and can easily be carried around, often even hidden on your person. That is much better than depending on the goodwill of others and setting up complicated rituals.


    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    I'm not sure why you think I think she didn't, given I said I dislike how she was used. I think she could have been done in a way that did no harm, but I do not think she was actually done that way.
    Sorry, I genuinely quoted the wrong post. I wanted to reply to (and have fixed the quote):

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Shoe horned, yes maybe. But that's what a shoehorn does. Insert foot into shoe, which fits the foot per se, but has a hard time going in.
    I think she fit the story pretty well, the actress did fine.
    Yes it was also the most lazy way to do it (love triangle), but better that than nothing I guess.
    Last edited by Seppl; 2020-06-04 at 05:45 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    As I pointed out several times before, updating a work through adaptation to be more relevant to a modern audience is not a foreign concept. And doing it to make the work more relevant to the world of its viewers is inherently valuable, provided it's done right.
    Though I feel it raises the question if such a work should be adapted at all? If you consider a work objectionable because of one of its underlying concepts, is it a story you really want to tell? If you have to do major contortions to make a story acceptable, is there a point to adapting it in the first place?
    I think the answer should be no. But of course the real answer is money.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    I am pretty sure there is a mention that just holding The Power is a good protection from all but the most powerful Compulsions. Maybe channeling also has a good chance of removing a compulsion. Another possible reason: High-level Compulsion are only used by the Forsaken, for them the power boost from linking with an average third-age channeler would not be worth the effort. With an (s)angreal the power is all yours, all the time. I is easy to use, and can easily be carried around, often even hidden on your person. That is much better than depending on the goodwill of others and setting up complicated rituals.
    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    Spoiler: Full WoT Series Spoilers
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    Black Ajah don't know Compulsion. Graendal absolutely does this during the battle at Shayol Ghul.
    Let me answer both of these responses in a single spoiler block.
    Spoiler: Compulsion and Linking
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    @responds to tiornys first.

    If I recall at least 1 black ajah member knew a form of complusion. Liandrin, and quickly looking at the wiki Delana also knew compulsion but she did not know it at the start of the series.

    My memory is hazy but Liandrin should have the instinct to do this for it is literally her personality, while simultaneously Linandrin would probably screw this up for she is literally the Starscream of the series who is constantly screwing things up. Regardless Linandrin visit Shayol Ghul prior to the books starting and thus should have been doing a plan like this regardless of what she was doing. This is because she was on the move constantly searching for the 3 boys prior to the series starting.

    Delana is smart enough to do it, but she may not have the temperament to do so, and especially after she was trapped in doing the Forsaken's bidding and thus had little lateral movement.

    -----

    But my point is why doesn't the Forsaken do such a thing. Granendal doing it at the last Battle makes sense to me so I am glad someone brought it up.

    -----

    Responding to @Seppl , yes there are defense to compulsion, and weak compulsions can be dispeled but not without risk.

    Regardless the attempted gain is so much more beneficial than the risk. Furthermore if you are seeking out not women who have been trained but instead Wilders or people who have the spark but is untrained then there is far less risk. Yes this takes time, but the potential for gain is there. Compulsion is a monstrous act but with the Forsaken and the Black Ajah they do not care if they are monsters...generally.

    And yes Angreal and Sanangreal is something that is far safer but it is a different risk vs reward sceanrio. You have no clue where those things are, while finding women who can channel is an easy thing to do all it takes is days, weeks, months of time.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Liandrin's compulsion is a pale imitation of the real thing - Moghedien makes that clear when they cross paths.
    Of all the Black Ajah I think the one closest to the real thing was (seriously major spoiler, moved to bottom of post)

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    One day he finds the power has changed and how he taps it has changed, now he channels saidar.
    I'd view switching as requiring more conscious effort than that, at least initially; as with other examples of channeling we've seen, unlearning one way to learn another for an established channeler is very difficult if not impossible. It might even be that none of the existing characters (who are all presented as cis anyway) need to go through this, but it's more a brave new world for the next generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Though I feel it raises the question if such a work should be adapted at all? If you consider a work objectionable because of one of its underlying concepts, is it a story you really want to tell? If you have to do major contortions to make a story acceptable, is there a point to adapting it in the first place?
    I think the answer should be no. But of course the real answer is money.
    It's almost certainly getting adapted - Amazon was working on it right as the pandemic hit - so the only question now is what, if any, changes they decide to make.

    To be clear, even if they don't change anything I'd watch it - but I do see a golden opportunity here. I'd hope they at least de-emphasize or outright remove some of the more unnecessary differences between saidin and saidar, if nothing else.

    Spoiler: major spoiler from above
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    Verin
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-06-04 at 06:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #187
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'd view switching as requiring more conscious effort than that
    Ok, so if I am understanding correctly which side you channel would not be about mentality then - biological(?) men would automatically link to saidin regardless of how they saw themselves, you just want some way around that which is one of the things that caused problems in the first place.

    To allow a little sarcasm, it sounds a little like you are on the Dark Ones side - lets drill a few more holes, this time it will work out wonderfully.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Ok, so if I am understanding correctly which side you channel would not be about mentality then biological(?) men would automatically link to saidin regardless of how they saw themselves, you just want some way around that which is one of the things that caused problems in the first place.
    No, still not biology - tradition. I covered this earlier in the thread, but the idea is that the first way that a channeler learns how to channel becomes so engrained to their style that it's extremely difficult to unlearn. That's more than enough to explain the formation of the various matriarchal societies as we see them at the start of the series, before Rand starts breaking their chains. The dichotomy of the Source itself can be disproven any time after Saidin is cleansed, say, though it can wait all the way until the end if needed - which gives plenty of time to layer in foreshadowing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #189
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    No, still not biology - tradition.
    There was no modern tradition for male channelers before Rand created the Ashaman and yet they were all drawn to saidin, so you need something to explain this other then tradition - and other cultures have there own traditions yet a gender divide still exists.

    Seperately until women get picked up for training they all access saidar - despite being exposed to no tradition.

    So if it is not biology that links men to saidin so completely (and women to saidar) what is it?

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Was the Tauriel character not quite horribly received? By the whole audience? They did the opposite of what I suggested, and what they did in LotR: Instead of just ignoring something that is not even a problem, they highlight it and offer a dishonest token "solution".
    I'd have rather they hadn't added her (though I do understand the reasoning they did so.) I'd have much rather they stuck to the story rather than adding her.

    But I much rather preferred her than the insertion of Legolas which served no purpose than upstaging what should have been the main cast of the story.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    With no real knowledge of Wheel of Time, just going by what's been said in thread I would say...


    ...Don't modernize it. Like at all. Do an actually faithful adaptation, don't pull a sudden, weird twist that's only purpose is to serve modern 'sensibilities' because it will only damage the story being told...but also date the product as well.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    There was no modern tradition for male channelers before Rand created the Ashaman and yet they were all drawn to saidin, so you need something to explain this other then tradition - and other cultures have there own traditions yet a gender divide still exists.
    Sure there is; Rand learned from Asmodean, and the others learned from him. Taim is self-taught to an extent, but learned from the Forsaken at some point too (either Ishamael or Aginor seems likely) before becoming one himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Seperately until women get picked up for training they all access saidar - despite being exposed to no tradition.
    We've seen very few learn it with no training at all, too small a sample size to draw universal conclusions from. Nynaeve is the most prominent, and then there are... two other named wilders? Three?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    I'd have rather they hadn't added her (though I do understand the reasoning they did so.) I'd have much rather they stuck to the story rather than adding her.

    But I much rather preferred her than the insertion of Legolas which served no purpose than upstaging what should have been the main cast of the story.
    Tauriel imo was an execution issue. Adding her could have been done well.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-06-04 at 08:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    We've seen very few learn it with no training at all, too small a sample size to draw universal conclusions from. Nynaeve is the most prominent, and then there are... two other named wilders? Three?
    A wilder is anyone who learnt or started to learn to channel without Aes Sedai training. Moiraine and Siuan are both wilders by that definition, as was Liandrin, Nynaeve, quite a few of the Wisdoms of Two Rivers and a large number of others, such as many of the Kin, who all learnt to touch the one power without being trained, those that survived that is.

    We also have the issue of the damane testing by the Seachan. It picks up every single woman who already had the spark (the damane) or could be taught to touch saidar (the sul'dam). We also know that anyone who can channel saidar who touches the a'dam caused immense physical pain (even death) to both parties.

    That kind of makes it hard for it to be tradition as otherwise the testing wouldn't really work and would also lead to a lot of dead women, which isn't what happens.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    A wilder is anyone who learnt or started to learn to channel without Aes Sedai training. Moiraine and Siuan are both wilders by that definition,
    "Starting to learn" isn't enough, they would have both died without formal training. It's the ones that survive that stage without receiving it that I mean.

    Sure, if you use the broadest definition (the one that particularly snooty Aes Sedai like Elaida and Liandrin use), every single channeling society other than AS are wilders - but we don't want to be taking cues from them.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Did Tauriel really do no harm? The message that got sent here certainly was not "it does not matter who you are, you can still be a hero!". The message was "Girls only get to be the hero because we had to check that box on the list that marketing gave us". A lot of people understood that message. They even doubled down on that by also using that same character for the cheesy romance subplot, thus ticking off another box. Just in case that anyone missed the message that representation in movies serves only marketability. Remember, girls, you only get included for token representation!

    That is not just a horrible message, it also sours the chances for other such characters to be well received, even when the intentions of the writers might be genuine.
    The message of the original was
    "Adventures are Boys only clubs, no girls allowed"

    So, yes, I believe Tauriel was an upgrade to that.

    I am not so opposed to love triangles as some of you seem to be. It is a fine story concept, also very close to RL, so worth telling over and over again.

    It is eye rolling that the (male?) authors couldn't think of anything more original than that, because it IS such a cliche. Disappointing that they couldn't think of something a little more interesting in the style of of Lotr, but I give them SOME leeway, because they didn't want to change the story toooooo much, I think.

    Just imagine Tauriel had killed the dragon.
    What a fan outrage that would have caused!!!!!
    All the fans of that bowma (damn, don't even remember the man) would have cried that these stupid authors stole the heroism from their favourite pet character! And all because of social justice warrior crap, OMG!

    See, a love triangle at least people can swallow, because it doesn't harm the "real" story too much.

    Yes, personally I might have been more bold and have Tauriel slay Smaug (she is an Elven Archer, right? Makes perfect sense, right?)
    But I can understand why authors gave her the love arc, although it does feel it leaves a little more to desire.

    Also, didn't she also actually do a bit more?
    It is been a while, but wasn't there some other plot with her standing up to the elf king dude, going after Legolas or something?

    At any rate, LotR's major flaw(*) has always been that it was pretty male-centric, and Tauriel was at least an attempt to rectify that.
    And I believe a token representation is at least a step into the right direction, better than nothing.
    A small step, not taken far enough, is not ALWAYS worse than no step at all.



    (*) Unless you WANT your audience to be mostly boys anyway. There is room for gender-targeted media as well. Not everything has to be for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Obi-Wan Kenobi is one of the two main protagonists of the Prequel Trilogy and is not known to be a blood relative of the Skywalker family.

    Spoiler: More Star Wars stuff
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    Also, praise the Sequels for making Rey not a blood relative of the Skywalkers all you want, but if the Sequel Trilogy does anything for the eugenics implications I'd say it strengthened them - Kylo Ren's the third generation of powerful Force adepts out of the Skywalker family, and Rey just so happens to be a powerful Force adept who's the granddaughter of another powerful Force adept. This is reinforcing a pattern that says that Force sensitivity is a heritable trait, not weakening that particular implication. Additionally, whereas the Original and Prequel Trilogies indicate that great potential is not particularly meaningful without training and dedication, the Sequel Trilogy simply hands Rey powers with seemingly no justification other than who her grandfather is, which is significantly worse in terms of what it implies for a hypothetical eugenics program than just making people from the 'right' families have higher potential.

    The Prequel Trilogy is much better than the Sequel Trilogy in terms of eugenics implications:
    - Skill and experience trumps strength in the Prequel Trilogy: Anakin loses to Dooku and Obi-Wan despite The Phantom Menace indicating that he has the highest Force potential of any known Jedi. By contrast, in the Sequel Trilogy Rey's a better Force user than Kylo from at least the point where he tries to interrogate her despite Rey being entirely untrained, and she also beats him in every fight they get into.
    - Anakin is the only "protagonist-level/antagonist-level" Force adept from a 'special' family in the Prequel Trilogy; Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, and Count Dooku are unrelated to the Skywalkers as far as we know from the films. By contrast, Rey is the granddaughter of Emperor Palpatine, Kylo Ren is a Skywalker, and Snoke is apparently something Palpatine created in a test tube.
    - The Prequel Trilogy has by far the highest incidence of Force adepts who are not related to the Skywalker family or any other known Force adepts. Sure, most of them are barely deserving of the 'character' in 'background character,' but they're still there. The Sequel Trilogy - fan theories about Finn aside - only has Temiri Blagg, who isn't any more of a character in The Last Jedi than, say, Eeth Koth or Plo Koon are in the Prequels.
    - If the Jedi Order represents a reasonable fraction of the galaxy's Force sensitive population, then the Prequel Trilogy shows that there are far too few of them for Force sensitivity to be a simple matter of genetics - there's only ten thousand or so Jedi in the waning days of the Old Republic whereas Coruscant alone probably has a population in the trillions.
    Now I remember....
    See, I applaud Psyren's agenda. I am all for inclusion and diversity. But I also can't stand arguments that just won't make sense. We may all disagree on the quality of Star Wars movies, and we did for very long threads, but that whole "the new trilogy democratices the force" just really made no sense whatsoever, for the reasons you gave.

    So I really feel a little bad. I want to root for the guy, cause he seems to be on the side of the angels. But I simply can't, when I read stuff that simply is untrue.....


    But back to you, Psyren, and the Wheel of Time:
    You mentioned that Star Wars made a mistake by putting the highly spiritual matter of the force into crude biological stuff, and that a modern WoT would do well by doing it the other way around: biological sex should not limit what magic powers one can use, because we can all decide ourselves what we want to be.

    Now I want to discuss this from a "morales" point of view, kinda.
    I don't know what the morals of WoT are supposed to be, so maybe you tell .

    Because the reality is this: biology DOES limit us, in real life. At the very least, our chromosomes dictate whether we might get prostate cancer or cervic cancer, for example. And unless we undergo surgery, our "spiritual mind" cannot change a damn thing about that.
    So a message of any story could also be : there are some things we are born with which we just cannot change, no matter how hard we try.
    And this might be a good message.


    Magic of course can be written either way: you can make it dependent on biological assets (in which case the story is around working with what you have and try to make the best of it) or you can make it around the mind (in which case the story is around everything is possible if you can imagine it - escapism).
    I like both ways, you just need to be aware of what kind of story you are reading right now, and be adult enough to be it into the right context.

    So, how do you think WoT was written? Does it even HAVE a morale message?
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2020-06-05 at 01:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Now I remember....
    See, I applaud Psyren's agenda. I am all for inclusion and diversity . . .
    But the agenda Psyren is pushing here doesn't lead to diversity. It's about as anti-diversity as you can get! If you try to get everything changed that doesn't agree with your personal views, how on earth could you possibly expect that to give you a more diverse range of opinions?

    This is actually a really common thing in the profession where I work. There are huge sections of writers, producers, and other content creators who have practically identical views on everything. It's why so many TV shows end up sounding so similar and interchangeable.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    But I much rather preferred her than the insertion of Legolas which served no purpose than upstaging what should have been the main cast of the story.
    Oh god yes so much. I disliked him in the first movies. I hated him with flamming passion in the Hobbit.
    Just thinking about him makes me want to rant about how he is an upstaging machine that should not have been allowed near the film.
    As well as about how the director deserves a kick in the groin for doing so anyway..

    Just imagine Tauriel had killed the dragon.
    What a fan outrage that would have caused!!!!!
    All the fans of that bowma (damn, don't even remember the man) would have cried that these stupid authors stole the heroism from their favourite pet character! And all because of social justice warrior crap, OMG!
    Of course it would have caused outrage. Justified outrage. It would be a massive change to the story for no reason.
    I dont mind the story of elf lady archer shooting a dragon. But thats not how it goes in the hobbit. If you want that story write it yourself.

    So I really feel a little bad. I want to root for the guy, cause he seems to be on the side of the angels.
    No. He is on the side of your angels. Clearly there are a lot of those, with wildly disagreeing oppininions.
    Seeing as nearly everyone manages to be on the side of them.
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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Changes the subject, to have someone refresh my memory.

    Is there a reason why we see no women Black Ajah or Forsaken to use Compulsion (or another means) to break an Aes Sedai or a Wilder who can "channel" and then use said broken women as a Saidar enhancing battery via linking?
    I think poster made some really decent arguments about the lack of Compulsion knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    We do see both men and women Aes Sedai / Ashaman / Forsaken seeking out angreal and sanangreal to enhance their power, but with the women channelers it is so easy to create a link with another women, and you can then force yourself to be in control of the link if you are dirty and limit the abilities of the other women.
    I think another major issue going to be real world application of the idea. A BA can't drag their battery around anywhere where another female channeler might be without risking discovery.

    The BA lives in the Shadows, also in the shadows. It takes great effort to ensure it is only the faintest of a rumour. Because it can do more that way. That also means 99.99% of the time you need to be and act like an Aes Sedai.

    Given the massive disparity of channelers vs mundanes there's not a lot of benefit of raw power most of the time. Open conflict after all is close to the last resort of BA, the fact they reveal themselves so "early" is a mistake that eventually brings them down too.

    Basically even if you could there is probably no reason to risk it until the rewards are great enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The message of the original was
    "Adventures are Boys only clubs, no girls allowed"
    Was it? In the story that is literally about a little Hobbit becoming the big hero, despite everyone saying he cannot? Making Bilbo a woman, now that would have been a change that fits the story and keeps the real original message intact!

    Nobody would seriously have batted an eye at the fact that the adventuring scene in a pseudo-4th-century setting is male-dominated. But because of Tauriel it gets framed as if that were some huge problem, while at the same time Tauriel shows that the real problem is in our society, not in 4th-century-adventuring parties. And the problem is not that people would be irritated by female heroes, but that story tellers see the worth of female characters primarily in tokenism.

    That is the same kind of mindset that leads to movies about Vikings, where the population of the Viking village mirrors the demographics of present day New York. Which, incidentally, is also something the Hobbit did, and also sent a terrible message. They showed that there were non-white people in Lake-Town. Bit of a stretch for such a time and society, but acceptable. But the way it was executed sent the opposite message: You people appear in the background of one scene, so that we get to tick off another box from marketing! That is your worth to us!
    The inclusion of black people in one background crowd only highlights the fact that all the heroes are white. Without that background shot, it would just have been normal and expected that everyone, including the heroes, in the pre-medieval, northern trading village is white. Instead, we have the unfortunate implication, that the town had a black demographic, but none of them were heroes.

    Sorry for stating this parallel-discussion about The Hobbit and TLotR. But I think it nicely contrasts two adaptions of two old books (and both works are somewhat similar to Wheel of Time!), one of which is widely regarded as one of the best adaptions of all time, and another one is the opposite. Despite both being done by mostly the same people in similar styles. There you can see, what kind of changes work or do not and why.
    Last edited by Seppl; 2020-06-05 at 05:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Vikings = real life

    Hobbits = fantasy

    Big difference
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Vikings = real life

    Hobbits = fantasy

    Big difference
    Ahh, yes, because fictional worldbuilding does not have to be consistent or make sense

    But you are completely missing my point: Bad token representation sent the opposite message than should have been intended. Without it, everything would have been fine. Yhe demographics of the hero group would just have been representative of the general demographics in the setting. But by using token representation in unimportant scenes, you are actively saying that certain people are only good to serve as background dressing and are not allowed to be the heroes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Starting to learn" isn't enough, they would have both died without formal training. It's the ones that survive that stage without receiving it that I mean.

    Sure, if you use the broadest definition (the one that particularly snooty Aes Sedai like Elaida and Liandrin use), every single channeling society other than AS are wilders - but we don't want to be taking cues from them.
    The point is that each gender automatically grabs for the same power source everyone else their gender does. Men go for one, women go for the other. ALWAYS. if your version of the magic system existed we would already have women channeling the male half by accident and vice versa because people touching the power and learning to use it in limited dangerous fashions without any knowledge of whats going on is a thing, and has been an established thing since the beginning of this worlds history. So again, you have to fundamentally altar the world of the wheel of time to make your changes happen because ALL OF IT TIES TOGETHER. In ways both grand and small, the system of magic as written effects how the world works and changing that to please more modern sensibilities will create so many plot holes it turns the tapestry into a fishing net. You would literally have to go through the entire story line by line and change even more of it to make it fit together again. Because there are far too many aspects that cant be hand waved with a "Gee, I guess we were just doing it wrong for 50 thousand years!" explanation.
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    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Ahh, yes, because fictional worldbuilding does not have to be consistent or make sense

    But you are completely missing my point: Bad token representation sent the opposite message than should have been intended. Without it, everything would have been fine. Yhe demographics of the hero group would just have been representative of the general demographics in the setting. But by using token representation in unimportant scenes, you are actively saying that certain people are only good to serve as background dressing and are not allowed to be the heroes.
    Why does a male adventuring party in a fictional setting make more sense than a mixed one?
    Thats why it is called fictional.

    But since you bring up demographics, let me ask you: what is the percentage of women in middle earth's population?
    How many % of the humans are female?
    How many % of the dwarves?
    Of the elves?
    Of the orcs?
    Hobbits?

    How are the %ages of the named characters, you know, the ones who do participate in the adventure?

    @lord khaine: well ok. I should specify that I am also on the side of diversity and fairness to everyone, just like Psyren seems to be. But as said I don't agree with the methods, or in that case, what he said about the force specifically. Arguments need to make sense.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2020-06-05 at 09:55 AM.

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    I wonder how it would have been received if they had made some of the dwarves female.

    Balin would need to be male, because he had already been referenced in the LOTR movie. Thorin trying to stick his claim as King under the Mountain would mean he has to be male too. There's arguments for and against Bombur as the fat comic relief.

    But the rest? They're fair game. Making one or both of Fili and Kili female would be the most obvious. They're the highest profile of the dwarves after Thorin, which gives them the most to do. They do die, which means you should probably make a couple of the interchangeable other dwarves female too. Spend some of the two freaking movies worth of padding expanding the roles and characterization of the other members of Thorin's Company.

    It would have been a lot more elegant than creating new Elves out of whole cloth just to shoehorn in representation and a love triangle.
    Last edited by Rodin; 2020-06-05 at 10:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I wonder how it would have been received if they had made some of the dwarves female.

    Balin would need to be male, because he had already been referenced in the LOTR movie. Thorin trying to stick his claim as King under the Mountain would mean he has to be male too. There's arguments for and against Bombur as the fat comic relief.

    But the rest? They're fair game. Making one or both of Fili and Kili female would be the most obvious. They're the highest profile of the dwarves after Thorin, which gives them the most to do. They do die, which means you should probably make a couple of the interchangeable other dwarves female too. Spend some of the two freaking movies worth of padding expanding the roles and characterization of the other members of Thorin's Company.

    It would have been a lot more elegant than creating new Elves out of whole cloth just to shoehorn in representation and a love triangle.
    Who says they didn't?
    Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives
    Source: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dwarf-women#cite_note-0
    Citation on source: J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13)"; a similar statement was made in The_Making_of_Appendix_A#Durin's_Folk

    If you want to believe that some of the party are woman feel free - it would presumedly make no difference to casting, interactions etc.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-06-05 at 10:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I wonder how it would have been received if they had made some of the dwarves female.
    I was just about to write a post about the same topic.

    To wit, if it'd been done well, I think it would've surprised and confused some people who read the book on first viewing, with everyone else not really seeing anything off with the change, or even realising there was a change.

    EDIT: for comparisons, see She's a man in Japan.
    Last edited by Vahnavoi; 2020-06-05 at 10:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The point is that each gender automatically grabs for the same power source everyone else their gender does. Men go for one, women go for the other. ALWAYS. if your version of the magic system existed we would already have women channeling the male half by accident and vice versa because people touching the power and learning to use it in limited dangerous fashions without any knowledge of whats going on is a thing, and has been an established thing since the beginning of this worlds history.
    I feel like I need to jump on the "Traab is yelling everything I'm thinking train".

    This is a much more concise explanation then the essay I typed out. Thank you.
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    I love how people who have not read the series has opinions on modernizing it or not. They assume it is either benign or it is horrid, but how would they know?

    They are literally being prejudicial with prejudging a work they do not know.

    —————

    Sidenote who is going to make the thread on what should be modernized or keep the series perfectly intact for the Dune series?
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-06-05 at 11:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Was it? In the story that is literally about a little Hobbit becoming the big hero, despite everyone saying he cannot? Making Bilbo a woman, now that would have been a change that fits the story and keeps the real original message intact!
    You hit on my pet peeve about the movies with your first sentence there; yes, Legolas showing up and upstaging everyone is annoying; Tauriel being the token female only used for stereotypical female plot lines is cringeworthy. But the major gripe I have is that in a story called "The Hobbit", which should be about said Hobbit becoming a big hero, they change everything to the point where Bilbo becomes irrelevant to the story.
    It's especially galling in the second movie; every scene that is solved through wits in the book is quickly brushed over and turned into an action scene instead:
    In the book, Gandalf knows that Beorn doesn't like dwarves. So he tricks Beorn by piquing his curiosity and having the dwarves show up two at a time. In the movie we have the group being chased around by Beorn in his bear form.
    In the book, Bilbo saves the dwarves in Mirkwood by leading the spiders away and sneaking back to cut them free, then luring the spiders again to give the dwarves time to flee; he's actually the big hero in that scene since the dwarves are in no shape to fight. In the movie, the elves show up and rescue them after a short fight scene.
    In the book, Bilbo helps the dwarves escape from the elves by nailing them into the barrels. The elves then drop them into the river themselves, not realizing the dwarves had been in there until long after they are gone. In the movie, they are found pretty much immediately, get chased by Legolas, and wouldn't even have escaped if the orcs hadn't shown up as a convenient distraction.
    Especially bad once they reach the Lonely Mountain. In the book, Bilbo matches wits with Smaug and successfully tricks him. In the movie, they talk about five minutes, then Bilbo takes off the freaking ring. Cue the dwarves showing up and everything turning into a chase/action scene again that could have happened the exact same way if Bilbo hadn't been there at all. And then, Smaug has the dwarves right in front of him in plain sight (and flame range) and instead, he just leaves to destroy Laketown. It makes no sense at all, because they changed everything that lead up to this in the book.
    Overall, a lot of the book is about how thinking can get you much further than just being large and/or strong. Not a bad message for a childrens' book, I might add. And Bilbo is the representation of that way of problem-solving. Since the movies skip all of the "boring" thinking and solve everything by fighting, Bilbo becomes superfluous.

    Ahem, sorry, got carried away into a bit of a rant there.
    To circle back to the actual topic of the thread, don't change fundamental parts of the story just because you think it's what the audience wants to see. If you don't like the source material, find one that fits what you want better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    But the agenda Psyren is pushing here doesn't lead to diversity. It's about as anti-diversity as you can get! If you try to get everything changed that doesn't agree with your personal views, how on earth could you possibly expect that to give you a more diverse range of opinions?
    "The work should reinforce 1990 views on gender science" = "pro-diversity" is... a take, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Because the reality is this: biology DOES limit us, in real life. At the very least, our chromosomes dictate whether we might get prostate cancer or cervic cancer, for example. And unless we undergo surgery, our "spiritual mind" cannot change a damn thing about that.
    So a message of any story could also be : there are some things we are born with which we just cannot change, no matter how hard we try.
    And this might be a good message.
    Having or not having a cervix is not a "limitation," and has nothing to do with either gender nor the Wheel of Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Because there are far too many aspects that cant be hand waved with a "Gee, I guess we were just doing it wrong for 50 thousand years!" explanation.
    Except they were doing all kinds of things wrong for 50,000 years, so this can be one more. Healing Severance is new this Age; so is coercive linking by non-(taught)-channelers, and so is safe unweaving. These aren't issues with specific weaves, these are fundamental laws (or at least, what the AoL thought were fundamental laws, only to be proven wrong) of the Power itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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