New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 9 of 25 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516171819 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 736
  1. - Top - End - #241
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Maybe, but I'd wager that if the proposed change was "remove Egwene from the story" you'd get pushback even from a large contingent of the anti-Egwene faction.
    What was the John Oliver Season 1 Joke again?

    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Something to be mentioned, that I had forgotten about for a bit too...the ending of the series already implies a change in the nature of the One Power. Namely that it seems as though people can now have access to the True Power instead, which IS gender neutral.


    No, it doesn't. The "true power" is Shai'tan himself, and cannot be accessed by anybody without eventual insanity and death. It isn't evil because it is gender neutral, it is evil because it is raw, unadulterated essence of Satan.


    Spoiler
    Show
    The only thing even remotely like what you're talking about is Rand lighting his pipe after the Last Battle. Which is explicitly not done with Saidin or the True Power, as he explicitly tries to access both and can't touch either. He' s somehow manipulating the Pattern itself to do his bidding, which is an interesting concept but by all appearances unique to him.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    No, it doesn't. The "true power" is Shai'tan himself, and cannot be accessed by anybody without eventual insanity and death. It isn't evil because it is gender neutral, it is evil because it is raw, unadulterated essence of Satan.


    Spoiler
    Show
    The only thing even remotely like what you're talking about is Rand lighting his pipe after the Last Battle. Which is explicitly not done with Saidin or the True Power, as he explicitly tries to access both and can't touch either. He' s somehow manipulating the Pattern itself to do his bidding, which is an interesting concept but by all appearances unique to him.
    Ah, maybe I misremembered then.

    Still, I thought the implication was that it wasn't unique; or at least wouldn't stay so forever.

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Cool. Interesting to note you didn't address the actual content of the post.
    "I disagree."

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Every adaptation changes stuff, and to me, it is all okay as long as I can assume that the author might just possibly have decided to write it that way if someone had suggested it to them.
    Since he's dead, we can't really know. I'd like to think understanding that gender isn't a binary would have changed his approach to some elements of his setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Since I haven't read Wheel of Time,
    I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Ah, maybe I misremembered then.

    Still, I thought the implication was that it wasn't unique; or at least wouldn't stay so forever.
    None of the other channelers noted anything strange with the Power during the epilogue so I think the pipe thing was unique to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    It seems to me that there is no objective 'better' here. It's just a subjective question of which people prefer, and if a change is preferred how it would be implemented.

    I don't think there's a set of rules as to how far one can depart from the book series when making a remake, like have been suggested (for example, the author might have written it that way if they'd thought of it). Instead I think it's a matter of weighing how it will be received by people who are fans of the original series, and how it would be received by the wider target audience generally.

    Fans of the WoT books would generally be expected to watch the series, unless something alienated them from it. An example, there was a huge backlash from fans of the Jack Reacher book series against Tom Cruise playing the character in the movies solely because Tom Cruise was too short. The movies trying to sell it as an adaption, because Jack's confident personality was the essential part of his character and his height was by the by. But despite this it enough fans for Cruise to be fired for later movies in the series.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-...child/10509500

    I've never read the Reacher series (or seen the movies) myself, but I felt the same way about the Last Kingdom adaption of Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Chronicles. It really annoyed me that the main character was supposed to be a big tough badass, and was cast as a medium sized pretty badass.

    For audiences beyond the WoT fanbase it simply depends on whether a reimagining of some aspects would make for a better story. People will be divided on that, and it will be largely dependent on how well any rewrite is done. But I think any departure from the original (other than is necessary to make it for TV) should be approached with caution - after all WoT as it stands is a popular story, which is a big part of the reason you are making a series based on it (instead of writing something new).

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Just a reminder on two (actually 4) different things when people are looking for "objective" criteria to judge things.

    1) Robert Jordan did not have the name Robert Jordan by birth, it was a pen name he lifted from an author who was dead by the time Robert Jordan started using that name to keep his books and personal life separate to some extent. You can argue it was a homage but you can also argue this is a desecration, it is a subjective call whether Jordan was respectful to the original work. Can you deal with the hypocrisy of someone making a RJ TV work they think is a homage and "influenced by" even if its not a literal recreation? Can you deal with the hypocrisy when Robert Jordan did it himself?

    2) If the criteria is estate and copyright, then the deed has been passed and as long as Amazon is making it (since they own the copyright for the tv series) anything they get to make would be congruent to the legal man made invention (literally what a fiction is, a man made invention) which is our legal system with copyright, legal contracts, etc. Whether this is true or not to the legal standards is a matter of law and is sorta subjective sorta objective. People will not find this "satisfying" and once again I argue you must walk away with a subjective call.

    3) If its subjective, then does Authorial Intent matter, or is it Death of the Author arguments for criticism, and Death of the Author is inherrently subjective whether the Author is alive or dead per Roland Barthes. What matters is in the text itself, and if the text is not clear the reader will subjectively fill in the gaps much like imagining lines between two dots?

    4) If its authorial intent then Jordan has already trusted another writer to finish the series, and for his late wife to influence the show if there is a show even though as a legal fiction she has now power to force control, it is merely understanding. Prior to him knowing he was even sick though Robert Jordan when he sold the film, tv, and video game rights understood and talked to fans in fan conventions and so on changes will occur and he is okay with that and in fact he sees himself as a grand storyteller who is retelling many stories and that is why he borrows ideas from things like King Arthur and so on. Literally many names like eGwene al'Vere is a variant of Gwynevere. Furthermore RJ borrowed from many inspirations not just King Arthur I am just hyperfocusing on that instead of listing 50 other influences.

    ------

    No matter what you do, there will be some contradictions, and thus I repeat what I been arguing with this thread. It is a subjective call. If you are going to modernize WoT please do it well, and it can be done well if modernized or poorly, likewise not modernizing it is own choice with its different way this is unsatisfying and satisfying. (I am using the words here in a religious sense.)
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Just a reminder on two (actually 4) different things when people are looking for "objective" criteria to judge things.

    No matter what you do, there will be some contradictions, and thus I repeat what I been arguing with this thread. It is a subjective call. If you are going to modernize WoT please do it well, and it can be done well if modernized or poorly, likewise not modernizing it is own choice with its different way this is unsatisfying and satisfying. (I am using the words here in a religious sense.)
    I'm the only person who used word objective in the last two pages, so I assume you were talking to me.

    I think you missed my point. I was saying it was not objective and instead was subjective at an individual level - simply a mater of preference. Do you like it as it is, or would you prefer to roll the dice and see what a studio would come up with?

    But whoever is producing the series would not have that perspective. They would look at the factors in my previous post. They would know the vast majority of WoT fans would watch if it was faithfully reproduced, but may be turned off it they make changes. They would not know whether making changes would attract new fans or turn them away, and they'd have to weigh this risk up against potentially turning off existing fans.

    Beyond that, I am not fussed about authorial intent. The legal rights matters (and is obviously not subjective), but its not something we know anything about, so not much point discussing it.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2020-06-06 at 02:31 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mightymosy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What is the value in pretending that a gender binary is such a limitation? What lessons does that magic system teach that are relevant when the book is closed?
    Fourth try, still no answer.

    Sorry, you are on your own now, i dont feel like talking to someone who just ignores questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Since I don't think you are getting an answer elsewhere I will I will try to answer this.

    Wheel of Time's Message: People are different from each other, that doesn't mean that they are evil, misunderstandings can have terrible consequences, working together can have wonderous results.

    Biological sex is the difference that was used to demonstrate this - and that difference is so crucial to everything in the setting that it cannot be altered without altering the setting entirely.
    That guy just doesnt answer questions, so i dont see any use in further discussion. Sadly. I want to like him, i think i like what he is trying to stand for, but this conversation "technique" is crap, so I am out.
    But thank you for answering instead.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2020-06-06 at 03:29 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "I disagree."
    I think once you've taken up the stance that people without hands have no limitations compared to people which do, there's not really much else to discuss. Have fun with your thread!

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Banned
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I think once you've taken up the stance that people without hands have no limitations compared to people which do, there's not really much else to discuss. Have fun with your thread!
    Eloquently put. I agree.

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's the beauty of foreshadowing, you can insert it anywhere. It doesn't have to be paid off right away.
    You are evading the point.

    Your question in the OP is about dealing with controversial aspects of the gender divide in modern society. In short, you're stating that the way gender is handled in Wheel of Time would be unacceptable to modern audiences. People would be repulsed and stop watching, or write into the network executives and demand it be taken off the air.

    Do you sincerely believe that putting subtle foreshadowing into the show would be sufficient to stop people from being outraged? That showing how much the gender divide matters for 8 seasons before revealing "the characters are wrong" would prevent people from bailing halfway through season 1?

    That's why I referenced the "all dwarves are secretly female" in my earlier post. It only works if you're fixing the work in a vacuum. You state to people who know the work inside and out that "the work isn't a problem BECAUSE..."

    It isn't helpful to anyone not familiar with the original story. You can't correct something egregious enough to make a work unpalatable by slipping in some subtle winks to the audience and then fixing it in the epilogue.

    That's why I'm saying there are two positions here.

    1) Audiences will not be disgusted by how gender is portrayed sufficiently to make them stop watching the show, and therefore it can be adapted faithfully.

    2) Audiences WILL be that upset, ergo we have to re-write the entire thing. Blackjack, hookers, etc.

    I'll finally note my own position on the Wheel of Time books. I grew up reading them, I could probably quote entire passages from the first 6 books that were available when I read (and re-read, and re-read) them in high school. I haven't re-read them in years, because I'm scared to do so. I'm worried that I would sully my memory by reading them again with 20 years of growing up behind me, and a different understanding of representation and sympathy for the viewpoints of others.

    I hope I'm wrong. But let's say the books are so offensive that they would drive off an audience that lapped up Game of Thrones.

    Then don't touch them. Don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Don't adapt them, and don't try to change them.

    To do either would just invite sorrow.

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Oh yeah, Game of Thrones.

    Now that you've reminded me of that elephant in the room, I'll have to say the idea of Wheel of Time being controversial enough to be unsuccessfull to be ridiculous. In GoT's case, problems with the plot and dissatisfaction with the conclusion impacted people's opinions vastly more than any non-modern views and practices presented.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I think once you've taken up the stance that people without hands have no limitations compared to people which do, there's not really much else to discuss. Have fun with your thread!
    I was responding to the cervix analogy. Last time I checked, presence of hands varies neither by gender nor sex, so it's even sillier as analogies go. But fare thee well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Your question in the OP is about dealing with controversial aspects of the gender divide in modern society. In short, you're stating that the way gender is handled in Wheel of Time would be unacceptable to modern audiences. People would be repulsed and stop watching, or write into the network executives and demand it be taken off the air.
    I don't know that the response would be that drastic. There's all kinds of insensitive media (Game of Thrones adapted its source work to dial up the portrayals of sexual assault, and still ended up being very popular, at least until they ran out of books to adapt and started making up a bunch of stuff to rush to the ending they wanted. Wheel of Time won't have THAT problem at least.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Do you sincerely believe that putting subtle foreshadowing into the show would be sufficient to stop people from being outraged? That showing how much the gender divide matters for 8 seasons before revealing "the characters are wrong" would prevent people from bailing halfway through season 1?
    The entire first two seasons of Westworld consisted of foreshadowing, until they ended up in the real world. Like all ideas it depends on how you execute it.

    The Good Place is another great show that is very heavy on foreshadowing that the established/generally-accepted rules of the main cast's universe might be lies almost the whole way through, and that was received well also. It's not a show that can really be discussed in depth here due to its primary themes and setting, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    That's why I'm saying there are two positions here.

    1) Audiences will not be disgusted by how gender is portrayed sufficiently to make them stop watching the show, and therefore it can be adapted faithfully.

    2) Audiences WILL be that upset, ergo we have to re-write the entire thing. Blackjack, hookers, etc.
    Another binary

    These are not the only two positions. Audiences being upset or not upset is certainly a major factor - but how major depends on the person doing the adapting. They may want critical as well as commercial acclaim, and adapt with that goal in mind - thinking not just of audience reactions but those of reviewers and awards organizations. They may have a personal stake. The owners of RJ's estate, like his widow, may have changed their own minds about what they want to see on screen.

    And even if you do land on #2 - there's a lot of degrees of "re-write the entire thing." Changing the ending and adding in subtle foreshadowing nods to that effect might qualify, but it could be so subtle that you actually think they went with #1. There are nuances here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post

    I hope I'm wrong. But let's say the books are so offensive that they would drive off an audience that lapped up Game of Thrones.

    Then don't touch them. Don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Don't adapt them, and don't try to change them.

    To do either would just invite sorrow.
    1) Well, the "don't touch them" ship has sailed. Amazon is adapting them as we speak.
    2) While I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between the WoT and GoT audiences - there's a lot of difference too. Even putting aside the gender stuff that I opened the thread with, the magic systems are completely different, almost polar opposites in some ways, and I'd wager there's a substantial chunk of the GoT fandom (both written and television) that like it precisely because of how low-magic its setting is. So WoT can't bank on the entire GoT audience coming over wholesale.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Oh yeah, Game of Thrones.

    Now that you've reminded me of that elephant in the room, I'll have to say the idea of Wheel of Time being controversial enough to be unsuccessfull to be ridiculous. In GoT's case, problems with the plot and dissatisfaction with the conclusion impacted people's opinions vastly more than any non-modern views and practices presented.
    Yeah, I mean, there were articles talking about all the rape and misogyny and whatnot early on but for the most part it was just accepted as what the series is about. Its how that world works and so applying our real world morals to it is silly beyond using it to recognize that yes, this person is an awful dude and needs to die in some horrible fashion (luckily in this series thats almost a given)
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Banned
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Oh yeah, Game of Thrones.

    Now that you've reminded me of that elephant in the room, I'll have to say the idea of Wheel of Time being controversial enough to be unsuccessfull to be ridiculous. In GoT's case, problems with the plot and dissatisfaction with the conclusion impacted people's opinions vastly more than any non-modern views and practices presented.
    Well in GoT, you can still tell yourself while watching that the women having a cervix (and all the other female anatomy that goes with it) has nothing at all to do with the males choosing to rape the women and not (well, mostly, I guess, though I haven't heard of male on male rape in GoT) choosing to rape the other males.

    I can see how Wheel of Time might be less digestible to an audience who would like to pretend that women who are in severe pain several days a month are just stupid and choosing to feel that way and a woman missing fun stuff because of this is in no way a limitation caused by, you know, her having an uterus.


    While I would certainly hope that using rape essentially as background decoration is more controversial than magical powers depending on sex, I can by no means be sure that's actually the case.

    Now I kinda hope that someone makes a TV series of Wheel of Times that exacerbates the controversial traits of the original just like GoT does. It would be interesting to see what people actually dislike more.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2020-06-06 at 12:07 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #256
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Let me try again, for I think metaphor is what answers your question.
    What you seem to be saying here is that 'you wouldn't want to forbid someone from remake things that you find beloved - even if the outcome might be bad' which is an answer to a question nobody asked.

    The question: 'Do you Ramza00 want media beloved by you replaced with media that you consider to be bad, policitically charged fan-fiction?' is a simple question it can be answered with a 'yes' or with a 'no' and either is a fine answer, and could then be expanded to explain why if needed (but you have not been asked why).

    To review while paraphrasing:
    Anteros effectively stated that 'No one wants to replace what they like with rubbish'.
    You (Ramaz00) effectively stated: 'You don't speak for everyone so you shouldn't use 'no one wants''.
    I (dancrilis) asked: 'So ... do you want to replace what you like with rubbish?'
    You have not answered that question, you seem to have answered other questions (and answered them in a very haphazard manner).

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Now I kinda hope that someone makes a TV series of Wheel of Times that exacerbates the controversial traits of the original just like GoT does. It would be interesting to see what people actually dislike more.
    You mean you want an answer to the question of, is it more offensive to have:
    A) Rape ...
    B) Woman doing things things men can't do (while allowing men other advantages) ...
    ... as entertainment.

    I feel that shouldn't be such a puzzler and yet here we are.

  17. - Top - End - #257
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I feel that shouldn't be such a puzzler and yet here we are.
    Hey, I've never understood why women's nipples or swearing seem to be bigger deals to U.S.A. audiences than relatively graphic lethal violence, but somehow that's how it is.

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Banned
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post

    You mean you want an answer to the question of, is it more offensive to have:
    A) Rape ...
    B) Woman doing things things men can't do (while allowing men other advantages) ...
    ... as entertainment.

    I feel that shouldn't be such a puzzler and yet here we are.

    Well, I haven't heard of a single murder threat, or even just rude tweet against George R. R. Martin. J.K. Rowling on the other hand ... she's recently increased the security of her home, and it sure isn't because she's more afraid of kidnappers or burglars than she was before, seeing as she's been extremely rich for quite a while.

    If "boys can't enter Gryffindor girl dorm" is so controversial already, it would figure that "boys can't do the magic girls can do while still being physically stronger" might actually make a series unsuccessful.


    Perhaps I am a pessimist, but I am not so sure that misogyny, even if it takes the form of rape, is more frowned upon than telling a man (or men in general) "No, you can't. Only women can."



    The success of a Wheel of Time series would somewhat reassure me that, perhaps, things are not all that bleak.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2020-06-06 at 01:11 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #259
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Well, I haven't heard of a single murder threat, or even just rude tweet against George R. R. Martin. J.K. Rowling on the other hand ... she's recently increased the security of her home, and it sure isn't because she's more afraid of kidnappers or burglars than she was before, seeing as she's been extremely rich for quite a while.

    If "boys can't enter Gryffindor girl dorm" is so controversial already, it would figure that "boys can't do the magic girls can do while still being physically stronger" might actually make a series unsuccessful.


    Perhaps I am a pessimist, but I am not so sure that misogyny, even if it takes the form of rape, is more frowned upon than telling a man (or men in general) "No, you can't. Only women can."



    The success of a Wheel of Time series would somewhat reassure me that, perhaps, things are not all that bleak.
    Considering the reverse is also true that seems unlikely. I really dont see "Boys and girls are different" being such a horrific theme to include in a series that people would boycott it. Especially when its "Boys are better at some things, girls are better at other things, but working together they are awesome!" That being said, it IS possible there will be some mra nonsense considering so many of the people in power are *shudder* female. Clearly its all a setup by some beta male to subordinate men under the high heels of the female gender. /nod
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  20. - Top - End - #260
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Well, I haven't heard of a single murder threat, or even just rude tweet against George R. R. Martin. J.K.
    You need to get around more then. Im quite certain he has been called a hack more than once on this forum.
    Thats of course not a tweet. But still.

    If "boys can't enter Gryffindor girl dorm" is so controversial already
    Is it that controversial? and not just a few loud wacknuts?

    That being said, it IS possible there will be some mra nonsense considering so many of the people in power are *shudder* female. Clearly its all a setup by some beta male to subordinate men under the high heels of the female gender. /nod
    Of course there will!
    Since its important to be EVER VIGILANT! for that sort of subversive propaganda!
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  21. - Top - End - #261
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    How did we go from "Wheel of Time has outdated, offensive gender archetypes" to adaptation of "Wheel of Time would be hated because it has too much female empowerment!" My head hurts.

  22. - Top - End - #262
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I'm the only person who used word objective in the last two pages, so I assume you were talking to me.

    I think you missed my point. I was saying it was not objective and instead was subjective at an individual level - simply a mater of preference. Do you like it as it is, or would you prefer to roll the dice and see what a studio would come up with?

    But whoever is producing the series would not have that perspective. They would look at the factors in my previous post. They would know the vast majority of WoT fans would watch if it was faithfully reproduced, but may be turned off it they make changes. They would not know whether making changes would attract new fans or turn them away, and they'd have to weigh this risk up against potentially turning off existing fans.

    Beyond that, I am not fussed about authorial intent. The legal rights matters (and is obviously not subjective), but its not something we know anything about, so not much point discussing it.
    I was not referring to you. Lots of times in the 9 pages of thread the words objective was used, furthermore synonyms of objective were also used. Like “nobody wants this.”

    ————

    I actually agree for the most part with your post. Liquor Box

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    What you seem to be saying here is that 'you wouldn't want to forbid someone from remake things that you find beloved - even if the outcome might be bad' which is an answer to a question nobody asked.

    The question: 'Do you Ramza00 want media beloved by you replaced with media that you consider to be bad, policitically charged fan-fiction?' is a simple question it can be answered with a 'yes' or with a 'no' and either is a fine answer, and could then be expanded to explain why if needed (but you have not been asked why).

    To review while paraphrasing:
    Anteros effectively stated that 'No one wants to replace what they like with rubbish'.
    You (Ramaz00) effectively stated: 'You don't speak for everyone so you shouldn't use 'no one wants''.
    I (dancrilis) asked: 'So ... do you want to replace what you like with rubbish?'
    You have not answered that question, you seem to have answered other questions (and answered them in a very haphazard manner).
    I have already answered, delight and disgust are two equally wonderful things. Melancholy and bittersweet is also possible.

    Sometimes we must taste rubbish to remember we live in a world of abundance.

    Dancrillis why are you making this personal? I have answered your question 4 times now.

    You asked in 226, 233, 239, and 257. Enough. I have already told you I am fine with political stuff that is not a representative of the original vision such as Starship Troopers. I have already told you I do not think ideas, concepts, or even worlds belong to an original person an originator, author, or auctor. For everything is inspired from something and people attach their names to the “derivative” things and when they do so it becomes theres and not the authors. A’ is no longer A but now it’s new thing.

    I even told you I am fine with perversions that reverse author intent and they pass them off as the original such as my Alexander / Plutarch example, a literally perverse corruption of the original.. A’ is not stating it is A’ but instead A’ pretends to be A.

    I do not believe you can own ideas, concepts, worlds. I believe with art once you created something part of it now rests in the person who perceives it not the original authors intent.

    Dancrillis this is my belief and it is not going to change by you repeating the question again and again. Can you deal with this fact, or are you going to ask me a fifth time?
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-06-06 at 03:38 PM.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  23. - Top - End - #263
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Well, I haven't heard of a single murder threat, or even just rude tweet against George R. R. Martin. J.K. Rowling on the other hand ... she's recently increased the security of her home, and it sure isn't because she's more afraid of kidnappers or burglars than she was before, seeing as she's been extremely rich for quite a while.

    If "boys can't enter Gryffindor girl dorm" is so controversial already, it would figure that "boys can't do the magic girls can do while still being physically stronger" might actually make a series unsuccessful.


    Perhaps I am a pessimist, but I am not so sure that misogyny, even if it takes the form of rape, is more frowned upon than telling a man (or men in general) "No, you can't. Only women can."



    The success of a Wheel of Time series would somewhat reassure me that, perhaps, things are not all that bleak.
    Rowling's attitudes to gender are... something I won't go into here, other than to say that any backlash against her likely goes waaaaay beyond the Hogwarts dorm policy.

    With that said - Hogwarts rules are institutional, they aren't enforced by the magic system itself. Witches and Wizards are equally capable magic-users, two of the Hogwarts founders are female, your magic isn't affected by gender expression etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    How did we go from "Wheel of Time has outdated, offensive gender archetypes" to adaptation of "Wheel of Time would be hated because it has too much female empowerment!" My head hurts.
    Search me.

    The strong female and POC characters in WoT is actually one of the reasons WHY (I think) it would be so worthwhile to adapt on the whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Well, I haven't heard of a single murder threat, or even just rude tweet against George R. R. Martin. J.K. Rowling on the other hand ... she's recently increased the security of her home, and it sure isn't because she's more afraid of kidnappers or burglars than she was before, seeing as she's been extremely rich for quite a while.

    If "boys can't enter Gryffindor girl dorm" is so controversial already, it would figure that "boys can't do the magic girls can do while still being physically stronger" might actually make a series unsuccessful.


    Perhaps I am a pessimist, but I am not so sure that misogyny, even if it takes the form of rape, is more frowned upon than telling a man (or men in general) "No, you can't. Only women can."



    The success of a Wheel of Time series would somewhat reassure me that, perhaps, things are not all that bleak.
    I don't think what triggers violent threats matters all that much to the success of a work. People threatening violence about stuff like that are usually rather extreme variants of a position. Things that trigger really strong anger in some isn't always a good indicator that it matters to a big part of the population. Like some people feel strongly about the witchcraft in harry potter but that is probably more of an indication of it being so popular that such people noticed it.


    ------

    @Ramza00 Why not just either give them a straight answer or declare their question undeserving of one?^^ I mean it is a bit of an irrelevant gotcha question and I might refuse to answer it for that depending on my mood, I just find your way a bit silly.

  25. - Top - End - #265
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    You asked in 226, 233, 239, and 257.
    No I didn't. I asked in 226, 233 and 239.

    In 257 I pointed out you had not answered the question asked - but I did not ask it again.
    You replied to 257 also answering question(s) nobody asked you.

    This is fine by the way - you don't owe anyone an answer to a question you don't want to answer, I was merely curious as you seemed to disagree with Anteros that 'no one wanted what they liked replaced with something they found to be bad' (again paraphrasing), but I guess we will never know - which is fine.

    Seperately, I had no intend to make anything personal - if it came across that way then that is unfortunate but I do not claim to be a wordsmith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    I mean it is a bit of an irrelevant gotcha question
    I can see where you are coming from with this in general - but I disagree in this instance, to use some hyperbole imagine the following:
    Person 1 - Statement: No one wants their loved ones to suffer a humiliating and painful death.
    Person 2 - Outrage: What do you mean 'no one' you don't speak for everyone!
    Person 3 - Confused: Wait, do you want your loved ones to suffer a humiliating and painful death?

    Person 3's question is not actually a gotcha in that context, person 2's outrage makes it a legitimate question for clarifing confusion.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-06-06 at 05:00 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #266
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    How did we go from "Wheel of Time has outdated, offensive gender archetypes" to adaptation of "Wheel of Time would be hated because it has too much female empowerment!" My head hurts.
    I've read the series. every book, long ago. I don't have much of a good memory of it admittedly, but basically:

    all the women were the same woman.

    all the men were the same man.

    Man: I stare off into the distance contemplating how my life sucks, oh no I'm ta'veren woe is me, Stupid Aes Sedai, bothersome women, I'mma do my duty and go fight something like an idiot.
    Woman: Husband, conform to my bizarre cultural values. obey my every whim. you can't do anything without me. I'm going to nag you into oblivion about everything. I'm always right, you can't argue. haha you fell in love with me by me forcing myself into your life, just as keikaku.

    except for the Aiel who are instead:
    Aiel: I'm going to talking constantly about my nonsensical honor/shame system forever, your going to forget the specifics halfway through the series but I'll still never shut up about it so your just going to wonder what I'm even talking about.

    the entire series is nothing but the Henpecked Husband Trope played out on a big scale with fight scenes and political interludes. like at a certain point, you just realize that Robert Jordan is just writing variations of that over and over again halfway through and clearly doesn't know any other way a relationship like that can work. Wheel of Time: Henpecked Husband the Series.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  27. - Top - End - #267
    Banned
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    You need to get around more then. Im quite certain he has been called a hack more than once on this forum.
    Thats of course not a tweet. But still.
    Have you taken a look at Rowling's twitter ever since last December?

    People are criticising G.R.R. Martin, sure, but there's nothing close to the vitriol Rowling gets. The haters even answer with hatred to Rowling's tweets praising children's drawings.

    And the opinion for which they hate Rowling is not explicitly stated in the Harry Potter books, but can clearly be extrapolated from the fact that Gryffindor girl dorm stairs magically rejects boys.

    @Vahnavoi: Well, both can be true at the same time. Some men will not be content with anything but complete subjugation of women. Obviously, things get offensive to women long before that point.

    But you have to remember that "Wheel of Times has outdated offensive gender archetypes" is not the same thing as "Wheel of Time not only acknowledges but openly states that there are actual differences between the sexes", and I think the latter is the reason why it would be hated.

    It probably also has outdated offensive gender stereotypes, but that wasn't a hindrance to the success of GoT. Or LotR. Or any fantasy book or movie ever.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2020-06-06 at 05:09 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Sigh JK Rowling tweeted something in the last 30 minutes. (I do not follow her, yet I know of this already, for it is one of thosecomments 😞.)
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Sigh JK Rowling tweeted something in the last 30 minutes. (I do not follow her, yet I know of this already, for it is one of thosecomments 😞.)
    What is it? Is hagrid a furry in a secret relationship with mcgonnagal? Did vernon actually marry petunia hoping for a magical child of his own and thats the real reason he hates harry so much? Maybe voldemort is actually a reincarnated saint who went insane when he learned he had magical powers that he believed came from the devil? Oh wait, I know, goblins actually are devout follows of the shinto faith! I seriously stopped listening to her a long time ago, she seemed to have this endless desire to constantly tweak her universe in odd directions with details that are never mentioned in any of her official works but since they usually arent contradicted it still fits.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Modernizing the Wheel of Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    What is it? Is hagrid a furry in a secret relationship with mcgonnagal? Did vernon actually marry petunia hoping for a magical child of his own and thats the real reason he hates harry so much? Maybe voldemort is actually a reincarnated saint who went insane when he learned he had magical powers that he believed came from the devil? Oh wait, I know, goblins actually are devout follows of the shinto faith! I seriously stopped listening to her a long time ago, she seemed to have this endless desire to constantly tweak her universe in odd directions with details that are never mentioned in any of her official works but since they usually arent contradicted it still fits.
    Without having read her books or seen her movies I don't know about revisions etc, but having taking a look at her twitter page she seems to have claimed that - and prepare yourself here - she claimed that 'women' exist and perhaps worse (if you can even believe it can get worse) that their existance should be accepted ... clearly she is a witch.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •