Making other ability scores matter for fighters

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Intelligence could give tactical boosts where you can reposition allies a bit (as a reaction or bonus action?)

Wisdom mod per short/long rest you could use Know Your Enemy much much faster: as an action/bonus action/reaction instead of taking a minute.

Your second wind hits cha mod extra targets (I know, trampling all over PDK; don't mind, PDK is long dead and turned to compost in my gaming experience)
Cha mod can give extra reactions to allies (but only for AoOs).

Liking any of it?

Maybe allow an Insight check to get a single piece of knowledge instead of two from a Know Your Enemy type effect (DC based on your opponent's proficiency bonus? deception skill bonus?) as an action, limited to once per opponent? Allow Fighters to do it as a bonus action with advantage once per short rest? That would still key off Wis, but be one of those universal things that anyone can do normally.

Adding additional effects to skill checks isn't exactly going to help a Fighter though, having only two base skill proficiencies. I really really don't like handing out extra skill proficiencies, but given the training rules on PHB p187 you can potentially gain as many language and tool proficiencies as you want. Maybe allow that to also be able to grant additional skill proficiencies, but no more than something like two less than your Int bonus. So Int 16 means you can train into one new skill proficiency. But there's an item that grants Int 19 which would surely get passed around for this purpose, so it wouldn't even be rewarding someone who puts a high score there. And that's also the issue you run into with handing out bonuses for having a high Int score, that's an uncommon item because so few classes can even benefit from that stat.

Second Wind hitting Cha mod additional (adjacent?) targets is actually pretty good. I don't like anything that gives extra actions though, including bonus actions or reactions, for obvious reasons. A Rogue getting extra sneak attacks with Sentinel and/or from an Order Cleric is powerful enough when he only has one reaction each turn.

Consider what previous editions did for a Fighter with high mental stats. In 3.x you maybe need Int for Combat Expertise, and more skill points, and Wis for will saves, and all three for some skill checks, but that's it. In 2e it was even less useful to have high mental stats on a Fighter. We did have other warrior classes in 3.x that got more benefit out of one or more mental stats, like Warblade, but again you wouldn't be playing a Fighter in that case.

The problem you run into with adding benefits to a class for other stats is that you need to make sure it's functional with both low and high mental stats, which is very difficult to do without making everything you add extremely situational (limit extra Second Wind targets to adjacent allies). It needs to be left untouched if all those stats are 10 or lower, but it also needs to not be overpowered if the character gets a Headband of Intellect, or if he rolls really well and puts a 16 or higher in one or more of those. On top of that, it needs to not look to new players like the class actually needs those stats to be high, which is most likely why Fighters are so one-sided with what stats are important.

Wis is worthwhile for saving throws, especially with Resilient (which you have the feats to afford). Int becomes useful if you go EK, and not just for minor reasons. Cha isn't going to be useful unless you make a different kind of warrior (Paladin or Hexblade, whichever you're into). If you don't like the default flavor of either, Oath of Conquest is basically a warlord (Lay on Hands: I didn't give you permission to die!), and Oathbraker is also pretty strong.

[Pex]

I read OP:
"An idea has occurred to me. I’ll outline it here. It is in regard to the Battle Master subclass only. The idea is to provide bonuses based on these other abilities that at the very least cause a player to consider increasing those abilities.

I’m wanting to avoid conversations about how these ideas may create balance issues across classes and focus more on whether they can create viable alternatives to, for example, always dumping Intelligence."




No offense, Biffoniacus_Furiou and Pex, but I don't see how you help the OP. I'm pretty sure OP knows about the other classes. They're kinda right next to the Fighter in the book.

As for other uses, freestyle:

Intelligence could give tactical boosts where you can reposition allies a bit (as a reaction or bonus action?)

Wisdom mod per short/long rest you could use Know Your Enemy much much faster: as an action/bonus action/reaction instead of taking a minute.

Your second wind hits cha mod extra targets (I know, trampling all over PDK; don't mind, PDK is long dead and turned to compost in my gaming experience)
Cha mod can give extra reactions to allies (but only for AoOs).

Liking any of it?

Helping by saying the idea won't work. Making all ability scores matter for a class to do its thing prevents the class from doing its thing. If the character won't use new stuff because it takes away from what he already does then there's no point to having them.

[BurgerBeast]

Helping by saying the idea won't work. Making all ability scores matter for a class to do its thing prevents the class from doing its thing. If the character won't use new stuff because it takes away from what he already does then there's no point to having them.

There is no evidence that you understand the idea at all. None.

For example, nothing I suggested prevents a Battle Master from doing its thing. Any Battle Master you can make under the current ruleset is either unaffected by the change, or gains abilities.

Please tell me what, exactly, my suggestion “takes away from what he already does.”

What are you talking about?

[HPisBS]

Here's some subclass - and even class - agnostic options:

- Int mod times / long rest, you may crit on a weapon attack with a roll of 19 on the die. (Champions may similarly expand their crit range like this, but only ½ Int mod times / long rest.)

Thematically, this would represent using your understanding of armor, anatomy, and/or martial styles to get a decisive hit in. Mechanically, it's Int instead of Wis just because Wis (Perception) is already so much more helpful as a tertiary stat.

- Cha mod times / long rest, you may use your reaction when an enemy makes a melee attack against you to attempt to intimidate it, causing it to flinch rather than properly follow through on its attack. Make a contested Cha (Intimidation) vs Wis (Insight) check. If you succeed, the enemy has disadvantage on that attack roll.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There is no evidence that you understand the idea at all. None.

For example, nothing I suggested prevents a Battle Master from doing its thing. Any Battle Master you can make under the current ruleset is either unaffected by the change, or gains abilities.

Please tell me what, exactly, my suggestion “takes away from what he already does.”

What are you talking about?

What if a Fighter is starting at a slightly higher level and gets an uncommon item. Instead of a +1 weapon, he picks a Headband of Intellect because he sees that going from Int 8 to Int 19 will give him +4 to whatever thing you've added. Now half the monsters he fights have resistance to his damage. It literally took something away from what he was already supposed to be doing.

Making mental stats matter makes it so you have an opportunity cost for maxing out Str, Dex, and Con at the expense of those stats. It makes it so new players get confused about which stats the class needs. Putting higher stats on Int, Wis, and Cha is going to mean not putting as high a stat on Str, Dex, and Con, so it does take away from what the class is designed to do.

[TigerT20]

What if a Fighter is starting at a slightly higher level and gets an uncommon item. Instead of a +1 weapon, he picks a Headband of Intellect because he sees that going from Int 8 to Int 19 will give him +4 to whatever thing you've added. Now half the monsters he fights have resistance to his damage. It literally took something away from what he was already supposed to be doing.

Making mental stats matter makes it so you have an opportunity cost for maxing out Str, Dex, and Con at the expense of those stats. It makes it so new players get confused about which stats the class needs. Putting higher stats on Int, Wis, and Cha is going to mean not putting as high a stat on Str, Dex, and Con, so it does take away from what the class is designed to do.

I don't think there are that many monsters at levels where you only start with one (uncommon) magic item. As well, said fighter can still stand up to those monsters with manoeuvres or buffing the party with the ideas above. Or just spamming Commander's Strike.

(Also... aren't +1 weapons rare? I'm pretty sure they're different rarities)

[Skylivedk]

What if a Fighter is starting at a slightly higher level and gets an uncommon item. Instead of a +1 weapon, he picks a Headband of Intellect because he sees that going from Int 8 to Int 19 will give him +4 to whatever thing you've added. Now half the monsters he fights have resistance to his damage. It literally took something away from what he was already supposed to be doing.

Making mental stats matter makes it so you have an opportunity cost for maxing out Str, Dex, and Con at the expense of those stats. It makes it so new players get confused about which stats the class needs. Putting higher stats on Int, Wis, and Cha is going to mean not putting as high a stat on Str, Dex, and Con, so it does take away from what the class is designed to do.

I don't see the problem.

A) Don't use any rules created in this thread with new players
B) if you are not here to help make tertiary stats more relevant to the Fighter, I don't think you're helping OP (@BurgerBeast correct me if I'm wrong).


@topic:
Since wisdom is the best of the mental stats for the fighter, I'd make its Battle Master but the weakest, so if you want extra sup die from a stat, I think you can flavour it as force of personality/relentlessness and tie it to charisma

[Pex]

There is no evidence that you understand the idea at all. None.

For example, nothing I suggested prevents a Battle Master from doing its thing. Any Battle Master you can make under the current ruleset is either unaffected by the change, or gains abilities.

Please tell me what, exactly, my suggestion “takes away from what he already does.”

What are you talking about?

By having to increase IN, WI, CH to use the new stuff he loses the ST, DX, CO he needs to fight and use his battle master maneuvers to hit, damage, survive, and saving throw DC for his maneuvers. +1/-1 makes a difference.

[ZRN]

I think the Inspiring Leader feat is a decent example of how you can reward higher mental stats without requiring spellcasting. Would you ever take +2 Cha instead of +2 Str just to give your party an extra 1 temp HP? No, but it does make charisma at least relevant.

I do wish we had more feats like that, spread across Wis and Int as well, along with perhaps feats that integrate non-physical skills into combat more - stuff like "make a perception check as a bonus action to get advantage on your next attack."

The "problem" isn't that fighters are SAD; it's that being smart or wise or charming is a big part of the schtick for many warriors in fiction, and it's kind of a shame that the fighter class in 5e doesn't really mechanically engage with that as well as it could. It should be a primary goal of class/subclass design to give players mechanics that reflect their character concepts.

[Dienekes]

By having to increase IN, WI, CH to use the new stuff he loses the ST, DX, CO he needs to fight and use his battle master maneuvers to hit, damage, survive, and saving throw DC for his maneuvers. +1/-1 makes a difference.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true, but it is more to do with framing of information than anything else. If it’s clear that these are some slight benefits for your character’s other ability scores that in no way replace your primary stats it’s fine. It just gives fighter a reason to spend their copious ASIs on after they max out Str/Dex and Con.

To use an example, ToB. The Warblade has a few benefits for high Int. I have never seen anyone sacrificing their Str/Dex or Con to bump up their Int instead. But part of that is the benefits were nice, but anyone who gave it a second’s thought would see that their primary stats were more effective.

Or it’s a video game but Pillars of Eternity has every stat designed to be mechanically useful for every class. It gets away with it by being upfront which classes should focus where and which just stats just give fringe benefits if you want to mix it up. Mind you that game being a video game allows more mechanical complexity and minutia.

But the principle can apply to any rpg really.

[ZRN]

By having to increase IN, WI, CH to use the new stuff he loses the ST, DX, CO he needs to fight and use his battle master maneuvers to hit, damage, survive, and saving throw DC for his maneuvers. +1/-1 makes a difference.

I don't think we need to make it so that +2 Int is better than +2 in their primary stat for "smart" fighters, but as a 5e fighter you're probably capped at 20 in your primary stat by like level 6. And a Dex-based fighter doesn't really need Str and vice versa. Obviously CON is important for fighters, but it's important for everyone.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a dex-based "smart fighter" to prefer Int to Str/Con once his Dex is maxed.

[BurgerBeast]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Some useful ideas.

What if a Fighter is starting at a slightly higher level and gets an uncommon item. Instead of a +1 weapon, he picks a Headband of Intellect because he sees that going from Int 8 to Int 19 will give him +4 to whatever thing you've added. Now half the monsters he fights have resistance to his damage. It literally took something away from what he was already supposed to be doing.

Making mental stats matter makes it so you have an opportunity cost for maxing out Str, Dex, and Con at the expense of those stats. It makes it so new players get confused about which stats the class needs. Putting higher stats on Int, Wis, and Cha is going to mean not putting as high a stat on Str, Dex, and Con, so it does take away from what the class is designed to do.

I don’t know how this example is specifically relevant to this thread. Any player in any game can choose poorly when selecting magic items. Those choices can have consequences, from trivial to catastrophic. No one is denying that.

A player in a regular game might choose to boost Charisma to get more mileage out of his Charisma-based maneuvers, instead of choosing a +1 weapon. There’s little difference there.

Also, the opposite is possible. In either case the players may not regret the choice, and may simply benefit from the choice at no cost at all.

We’re not making any progress and I’d rather discuss the intended point of the thread.

By having to increase IN, WI, CH to use the new stuff he loses the ST, DX, CO he needs to fight and use his battle master maneuvers to hit, damage, survive, and saving throw DC for his maneuvers. +1/-1 makes a difference.

You continue to say things like “have to” and “must.”

No Battle Master will “have to” increase Int, Wis, or Cha. The class functions exactly the same as it does without increasing those stats. Exactly the same.

Since he doesn’t “have to,” your point is moot.

Also, there’s no “new stuff.” There’s extra uses of the same stuff.

I suppose if your favourite restaurant offered three new side dishes to compliment your favourite dish, you’d complain because now every time you go there you have to miss out on two delicious options. It wouldn’t matter that you could still eat exactly what you always ate at the same price, and have a bonus side dish for free.

We’re not making any progress and I’d rather discuss the intended point of the thread.

[Democratus]

At our table, when rolling initiative - ties are broken with the Int score.

It's a minor thing, but our smart fighter does get to appreciate it occasionally.

[Pex]

What would be helpful is to make the Battle Master more customizable. The Rally Maneuver already likes Charisma. You would need two things, and this was suggested in a thread a month or so ago.

1) Allow the Battle Master to use a different score than ST or DX for attack and damage.
2) Provide more maneuvers that utilize the different stats.

Therefore, if you wanted to be a Warlord CH would be for attack and damage and have more maneuvers that use CH for the DC or affect. Rally exists. Maybe a maneuver that allows the Battlemaster to expend a die to allow CH modifier allies to move.

The Tactician uses IN. Use IN for hit and damage. A Maneuver can give +IN modifier to AC until his next turn.

Maneuver details to be worked out. I'm not married to the preceding ideas, but the point is to make Battle Master modular. The player chooses which ability scores to emphasize and the corresponding maneuvers to reflect the combat style personality.

[Falconcry]

WotC maybe thinking the same since both current UA The Rune-knight and Psi-knight have abilities that key off Int.

[Tanarii]

On being MAD, look at EKs.

They work best if you are MAD. You get the most out of your new resource.

But in spite of that many people take 1/2 power on the new resource and stay SADz ignoring Int, so they can continue to max Con and Feats instead.

As long as effectively ignoring the additional ability scorr is still getting you something more than baseline, its fine. It makes it an option, not a requirement

Unlike, say, Monks and wisdom. They cant ignore it because it affects too many core functions

[ThatoneGuy84]

My main thought.
If your going to buff Fighter based on a mental stat.
What buff does my wizard get based on his Str?
If you attach it to Int. Cool ima still dump int and get a headband on intellect anyways.
What does my druid get for buffing charisma?

It's not like BM is broken and needs fixing.
It's not like they dont get dice back on SR ext.

[Vogie]

One way to back into this without requiring it is use a mod-level gating system

Perhaps one can't use Commanding Strike or Feinting attack without an Int mod of +1 or more. Things like Precision Strike or evasive footwork require an Int mod of +2 or more

Et cetera.

[HPisBS]

One way to back into this without requiring it is use a mod-level gating system

Perhaps one can't use Commanding Strike or Feinting attack without an Int mod of +1 or more. Things like Precision Strike or evasive footwork require an Int mod of +2 or more

Et cetera.

Absolutely not. That transforms these tertiary stat changes from nice little extras into taxes. That's a non-starter.

My main thought.
If your you're going to buff Fighter based on a mental stat.
What buff does my wizard get based on his Str?
If you attach it to Int. Cool ima still dump int and get a headband on intellect anyways.
What does my druid get for buffing charisma?

It's not like BM is broken and needs fixing.
It's not like they dont get dice back on SR ext.

The OP echoes the common refrain that high level martials ultimately lag way, way behind high level spellcasters. When you compare a wizard's or druid's ability to Shapechange or to travel from one side of the world to the other in an instant, to the fighter's or barbarian's ability to... uh... swing a weapon a bit more often or a bit harder, a tiny boost to martials really doesn't seem all that uncalled for.


That said, even full casters could benefit from my suggestion.

Here's some subclass - and even class - agnostic options:

- Int mod times / long rest, you may crit on a weapon attack with a roll of 19 on the die. (Champions may similarly expand their crit range like this, but only ½ Int mod times / long rest.)

Thematically, this would represent using your understanding of armor, anatomy, and/or martial styles to get a decisive hit in. Mechanically, it's Int instead of Wis just because Wis (Perception) is already so much more helpful as a tertiary stat.

- Cha mod times / long rest, you may use your reaction when an enemy makes a melee attack against you to attempt to intimidate it, causing it to flinch rather than properly follow through on its attack. Make a contested Cha (Intimidation) vs Wis (Insight) check. If you succeed, the enemy has disadvantage on that attack roll.

[Skylivedk]

My main thought.
If your going to buff Fighter based on a mental stat.
What buff does my wizard get based on his Str?
If you attach it to Int. Cool ima still dump int and get a headband on intellect anyways.
What does my druid get for buffing charisma?

It's not like BM is broken and needs fixing.
It's not like they dont get dice back on SR ext.

A) OP explicitly mentions that inter-class balancing is not a concern. Maybe this is step 1 in making all stats useful for all classes. Maybe it's a solo campaign. Maybe the Battle Master is played by a player trusted not to break the game (ie I once overloaded a visiting player with magic items because I knew he wouldn't take full advantage of them, but instead goof around while his team groaned)
B) strength is a lot more useful than int. Encumbrance and frequency of saving throws (almost same as Dex if you remove dragons IIRC), defence against prone, one of the most used skills IMX (athletics). Also, see A).

Absolutely not. That transforms these tertiary stat changes from nice little extras into taxes. That's a non-starter.


The OP echoes the common refrain that high level martials ultimately lag way, way behind high level spellcasters. When you compare a wizard's or druid's ability to Shapechange or to travel from one side of the world to the other in an instant, to the fighter or barbarians ability to... uh... swing a weapon a bit more often or a bit harder, a tiny boost to martials really doesn't seem all that uncalled for.


That said, even full casters could benefit from my suggestion.

I) Agreed with both first and second paragraph. As for the second, I feel it's especially relevant for tier 3-4 and doubly so for out of combat, but it's an ooooooold discussion that would derail this thread.

II) I like your crit theme for int. Reminds me of Pillars of Eternity and Divinity. I would probably prefer crits getting a status debuff int times per short/long rest, but that's just me being a sucker for non-damage effects. I would probably use it to give situational effects based on what is happening in that particular round and environment. Maybe with some static choices that can always be used (ie: grant advantage to the next attack, reduce movement speed, prevent reactions, disarm, etc).

Player rolls a crit:
"Great! Can I use my crit to to push him the vampire 5 get so he gets caught by Bob's fireball / swing in the chandelier and bring it down on the vampire for a restraining effect as I land? / jump into to shield my friend as I use the momentum from my attack?"
"You absolutely can"
*Ecstatic and ongoing happiness, everybody rides into the sunset on their favourite dragon*

[Tes]

Not sure how much homebrew you want to involve in this, but there is a somewhat easy way to rework the whole system.
It's slightly more math to track and more or less in the spirit of some 3.5 Prestige Classes. Getting additional boni from a secondary stat or to benefit from DEX and STR at the same time.

Alternative Attack Modifier:
- Weapon Attacks work with STR+DEX Modifier combined
- Total Modifier is capped at +5 to prevent things from going out of control with rolling for stats.
- total Modifier is also capped by your highest 2 out of WIS/INT/CHA (so one can remain a dump stat)
- the stat used for the weapon type -1 is the cap for the other.
14 STR 14 DEX is a +3 for STR and DEX Weapons
16 STR 14 DEX is a +5 for STR and +3 for Dex Weapons
IF you also have a total of +3/+5 in your two highest mental stats as well. Usually 2 ASIs away like it would be if you started with a 16.


- This remains fully compatible with the existing system. The players can always choose what they want (if you find a Belt of Giant Strength etc)

Example (Vanilla) Human Point Buy:
15 STR 14 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 9 CHA
Starts out with a +3 MOD to attacks

Pretty much normal progression for +Hit Modifier.
Downsides are that your "main stat" isn't going to be +5. It's less attractive for Full Casters who want to max their DC and mainly lets Barbarians, Monks, Fighters and Rogues take the middle path. Biggest drawback is they're going to be less good at things that depend on a "main attribute" like Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, Grappling... including the saves based on that.

On the plus side you're raising the average for Skill checks and saves across the board, basically jack of all trades (with one weak stat), better out of combat utility and can multiclass into everything with a little planning. Another upside is it promotes Medium Armor if you want to play a fighting man who isn't clanging around in plate, sneaking around in leathers or running around naked. This also opens up the currently non existent fighting man with the ability to be a "Weapon Master" and competently wield about anything he gets his hands on.

The Math behind it doesn't break anything. About the same progression as normal with pointbuy. Enables more races to pick any mundane class efficiently as a side effect.
Rolling for stats already makes it possible to have a level 1 Character with a +5 to his mainstat, so nothing problematic here either from the examples I crosschecked with. I'd personally ditch rolling for stats when allowing to build characters with this method.

[Hilary]

I wouldn't use any of those proposed mechanics.

I understand the issue. People are playing fighters game mechanically and without nuance. I would talk to your players about role playing.

I use Intelligence for literacy. Characters below 9 INT are simply illiterate. Less than 13 INT and they have to learn the spoken and written form of a language separately.

Too low of an INT and NPCs will sell you magic beans (that are not actually magic).

If any PC fails to meet the encounter's passive Perception, they don't notice the enemy. A bunch of goblins in some tall grass are just invisible to them until someone in the party lights them up.

Have passive ability checks using other Attributes (with relatively low DCs). That way, there is an incentive to have a 10 or 11 Int, Wis and Chr.

But I wouldn't link maneuvers to Attributes.

[Skylivedk]

I wouldn't use any of those proposed mechanics.

I understand the issue. People are playing fighters game mechanically and without nuance. I would talk to your players about role playing.

I use Intelligence for literacy. Characters below 9 INT are simply illiterate. Less than 13 INT and they have to learn the spoken and written form of a language separately.

Too low of an INT and NPCs will sell you magic beans (that are not actually magic).

If any PC fails to meet the encounter's passive Perception, they don't notice the enemy. A bunch of goblins in some tall grass are just invisible to them until someone in the party lights them up.

Have passive ability checks using other Attributes (with relatively low DCs). That way, there is an incentive to have a 10 or 11 Int, Wis and Chr.

But I wouldn't link maneuvers to Attributes.

I personally wouldn't use your approach since it seems to widen the gap between out of combat utility on Attack-action based/mundane classes and everybody else. IMX it's the opposite direction of where I want to go. I'd much rather give rewards than penalties for martials and their tertiary stats.

[greenstone]

…how to make other ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) matter for fighters.
…
Thoughts?

Yes. Focus more on the other two pillars of the game.

[BurgerBeast]

Yes. Focus more on the other two pillars of the game.

Oh, yeah. Great idea!

Focus on the parts of the game in which they have no abilities, and are outperformed by basically every other class.

That makes them better how?

Edit: Responses that are Long Overdue:

Why are you commenting? How are you trying to help OP?

Welcome to GitP. It’s quite spectacular.

[QUPTE]@OP: I like it. I would use int for number of manoeuvres, WIS for added accuracy/effect/rerolls of sup die and charisma for extra uses/buff of team abilities as suggested previously.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think the boost die adds an extra layer of complexity. Simply allowing the expenditure of an extra die seems cleaner and isn’t a huge power boost over a d4 (I don’t think - I could be wrong on this).

I really like Wis for rerolls. That seems like the sort of mechanical efficiency effect that a wise fighter ought to get.

In longer games, I find that the more unfun parts of the battle master is that they don't get better manoeuvres later, so maybe you'd give a look to adding manoeuvres that require multiple sup dice for more complex actions.

Yeah. Not sure if this should just be a universal fix independent of the current project or if it could be sort of maneuver levels 1, 2, 3 like spell levels and could require intelligence to access.

No offense, Biffoniacus_Furiou and Pex, but I don't see how you help the OP. I'm pretty sure OP knows about the other classes. They're kinda right next to the Fighter in the book.

See above. I just expect it in every thread, now. I’m rarely disappointed. It’s not nearly as rude as the people who come in to drop the one liner: “Play a different class,” or “Play a different game,” though.

As for other uses, freestyle:

Intelligence could give tactical boosts where you can reposition allies a bit (as a reaction or bonus action?)

Wisdom mod per short/long rest you could use Know Your Enemy much much faster: as an action/bonus action/reaction instead of taking a minute.

Your second wind hits cha mod extra targets (I know, trampling all over PDK; don't mind, PDK is long dead and turned to compost in my gaming experience)
Cha mod can give extra reactions to allies (but only for AoOs).

Liking any of it?

I like these as general applications to all fighters or as changes to the Champion specifically.

In the case of the Battle Master, the superiority dice and maneuvers are just so inviting to a tinkerer, and so mechanically suited to representing mental stats, that I can’t move away from them, personally.

[AdAstra]

From a balance perspective, anything that would add to Battlemaster's power should probably be implemented at higher levels, since the baseline BM is both quite good and very frontloaded. If I were trying to add mental stat abilities to fighter, I would probably either put them on the base chassis or the Champion. Champion is a useful baseline since it could use some degree of buffing, though adding such abilities will certainly reduce its value as a "simple" subclass, since focusing on those secondary attributes will likely be a bad idea and thus be a potential trap option.

[BurgerBeast]

From a balance perspective, anything that would add to Battlemaster's power should probably be implemented at higher levels, since the baseline BM is both quite good and very frontloaded. If I were trying to add mental stat abilities to fighter, I would probably either put them on the base chassis or the Champion. Champion is a useful baseline since it could use some degree of buffing, though adding such abilities will certainly reduce its value as a "simple" subclass, since focusing on those secondary attributes will likely be a bad idea and thus be a potential trap option.

Yeah. I totally agree. The idea was never to buff the BM exclusively.

The idea was to see how it could be done with Battle Master, and then do it with other classes and/or subclasses later. BM is just a trial run.

There might be simpler, passive abilities that could work for a Champion, but that’s a topic for another thread.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

I’ve been thinking lately (somewhat inspired by other threads) about how to make other ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) matter for fighters.

An idea has occurred to me. I’ll outline it here. It is in regard to the Battle Master subclass only. The idea is to provide bonuses based on these other abilities that at the very least cause a player to consider increasing those abilities.

I’m wanting to avoid conversations about how these ideas may create balance issues across classes and focus more on whether they can create viable alternatives to, for example, always dumping Intelligence.

Here are the ideas:

Intelligence: (1) you learn additional maneuvers equal to your intelligence modifier. (Since maneuvers are problematic because they get worse as you level, as an alternative idea, there could be optional tiered maneuvers, and intelligence modifier would set the cap on the tier available (minimum 1)).

Wisdom: apply your wisdom modifier to the number of superiority dice.

Charisma: not sure yet. Maybe you get extra superiority dice that must be spent on commanders strike, distracting strike, goading attack, menacing strike, or rally. Or maybe your Charisma modifier adds to your save DC on all maneuvers. Or maybe it adds to your uses of indomitable (this alone doesn’t seem significant enough to motivate investing in Charisma).

Thoughts?

For what your are trying to accoplish, mental stats would be better served with the Know Your Enemy class feature. Various skill checks could be implemented to provide more information about a foe other than just the physical ones the class feature already provides. For instance, after observing the target, the Battlemaster via a Insight (Wisdom) check could identify whether a spell caster favors spells that have certain casting methods such as somatic by the way the target naturally places their hands. Further such checks could be allowed in combat though at a higher difficulty.

This would certainly fit the theme of the subclass being essentially the ultimate tactician. In this case, crucial knowledge gain is more powerful than their maneuvers.

[Pex]

See above. I just expect it in every thread, now. I’m rarely disappointed. It’s not nearly as rude as the people who come in to drop the one liner: “Play a different class,” or “Play a different game,” though.

When asking for feedback or just sharing there will be people who disagree or not like what is proposed. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with their disagreement and double down on the original proposition, but that does not make the people who disagree or not like the proposal badwrongopinion how dare they speak.

[47Ace]

The idea is interesting but I think there could be some improvements in its presentation. Currently it is presented sort of like these are all of your class abilities here for the taking but you cant afford top use most of them and if you try you will be a poor fighter. To go to your restaurant example its less like you have more side dishes to choose from and more like they bring out 3 new side dishes for you to try but don't let you try them all unless you only eat part of the main (which is the reason you are there in the first place) and if you want to eat all on of the sides you have to still eat only a little of the main and none of the other sides. I know this is not how you see it but it is kind of how it is presented.

To help with the presentation I suggest that the new mental stat bumps be mutually exclusive. So you choose to be a smart/wise/charismatic fighter and only get the int/wis/chr bonuses. That way its less of you need all stats so you will be good at nothing. I understand that this is you intent but, you original suggestion comes across a lot like fighters invest in all of these stats. This change also helps avoid potential problems with high stat rolls. Further, it may make sense to treat this as an alternative class feature and have it cost the fighting style. That way you are providing options for smart/wise/charismatic fighters not just buffing them. It also gives you more room to make the abilities more powerful.