Why Choose Necropolitan Anyway?

[Doctor Despair]

I was perusing different spells that reference undead, and I noticed Undeath After Death, a 7th level Cleric spell (13x70 gold) with 50g/subject HD material components that causes the subject creature to lose 2 con and, upon dying, rise as a crypt spawn on the next sunset. Now, you can technically afford this casting by level 3, although it involves finding one such Cleric. The Crypt Spawn template makes you Undead, changes your HD to d12s, gains scaling natural armor, turn resistance, and +4 to intimadate checks, with no LA.

Now, the standard way to become undead that I've seen referenced on these boards is to take the Necropolitan template. That template requires 3,000 gold, one level, 1,000 xp, and for you to find a society or organization capable of performing the Ritual of Crucumigration, all of which seem equally or more stringent than Undeath After Death. Necropolitan can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids as well, which restricts build variety. You get those same d12s and turn resistance, while also getting +2 to saves against Control Undead and you are allowed to heal hit points and ability damage as if you were a living creature.

I suppose my question is: why in the world would anyone choose the Necropolitan template over the Crypt Spawn template to become undead? Is the extra 2,000 gold and effectively two levels worth obviating the need to be a Dread Necromancer or, more simply, purchase a Wand of Inflict Light Wounds or something similar?

[JNAProductions]

Does Crypt Spawn have LA: 0 or LA: Null?

There's a difference.

[Doctor Despair]

Does Crypt Spawn have LA: 0 or LA: Null?

There's a difference.

It doesn't list an LA, which might imply it's not suitable for a PC, but you can manually create add the crypt spawn template to any living creature with the spell and "uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here." The fluff text indicates that the spawn usually seeks out those who killed them and then resume their previous activities, so there's no RP reason why a PC couldn't become a crypt spawn. Does the lack of a listed LA imply that casting the spell on yourself would immediately make your character an NPC?

[ShurikVch]

Crypt Spawn is LA +2 (Monster Update)

[Doctor Despair]

Crypt Spawn is LA +2 (Monster Update)

Well that definitely clears up why Necropolitan is a strict upgrade. Thanks for the link, kind stranger.

[Endarire]

Necropolitan is available sooner. Undead have a lot of immunities, and even more than Warforged! You lose your CON bonus to HP, but sometimes it's worth it.

[Fizban]

Because the DM is being presumed to just let you backstory away being a Necropolitan, rather than instead first asking whether the DM even wants Necropolitans in the game, even though their existence hinges upon a specific city that has this special ritual, which requires you to successfully petition those in charge to do it. And we haven't even got to the fact that it fails if used on anyone with less than 3rd level plus an extra 1,001 spare xp, which means there aren't enough suitable people to even form a city, but hey. In short, it's basically a published setting fiat ability to let you just be undead, in an otherwise setting-agnostic book.

Meanwhile the PgTF WE 3.5 update of the Crypt Spawn template gives it an LA of +2, as mentioned. Furthermore, the spell is supposed to be for Clerics of Bane only, and unlike some specific-deity FR spells, did not have those deity requirements removed in a Spell Compendium reprint. It's also a 7th level spell, which is high enough that there are barely any generated NPCs which could cast it, let alone the chance that they worship bane specifically, let alone the fact that the higher level the spell goes the more reason the DM has to say "Yeah no that's powerful magic and they don't sell it to just anyone."

[Thurbane]

Are there any LA +1 playable undead templates? Aside from Necropolitan, everything I am aware of is +2 or higher.

[Rater202]

Also, by IIRC by RAW the lost of level and XP aren't part of the Necropolitian template but part of the ritual to apply it.

If you start the game as a Necropolition then that's all handwaved away as part of your backstory, similar to whatever training or experience you would need to start the game as a first-level Race/Class for any other backstory.

It only really applies if you are applying the template to an existing character in gameplay.

[Troacctid]

Also, by IIRC by RAW the lost of level and XP aren't part of the Necropolitian template but part of the ritual to apply it.

If you start the game as a Necropolition then that's all handwaved away as part of your backstory, similar to whatever training or experience you would need to start the game as a first-level Race/Class for any other backstory.

It only really applies if you are applying the template to an existing character in gameplay.

By RAW, you'd still be on the hook for an xp cost during character creation, just like if you used an item creation feat during your backstory.

[CIDE]

Are there any LA +1 playable undead templates? Aside from Necropolitan, everything I am aware of is +2 or higher.

IIRC Bone Creature. I could be wrong and it could just be LA: -

[Ruethgar]

Pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu, I wana be a necropolitain. Wish skips the ritual entirely.

[Rater202]

Pazuzu pazuzu pazuzu, I wana be a necropolitain. Wish skips the ritual entirely.

Only works flawlessly if you're a paladin, but basically.

The effects of the ritual, other than becoming a Necropolitian, aren't by RAW part of the template and the template by itself isn't too game-breaking so it shouldn't be that hard to get the GM to handwave it as a backstory thing.

[ChaosStar]

Are there any LA +1 playable undead templates? Aside from Necropolitan, everything I am aware of is +2 or higher.

Evolved Undead is a template you can put on an already undead creature that's +1 IIRC.

[Zanos]

IIRC Bone Creature. I could be wrong and it could just be LA: -

Bone and Corpse both have no printed LA, being from BoVD, which is 3.0

You could argue that's LA 0 but I think MM1 or DMG says that a monster has to have a printed LA to be considered a valid player race. If you can get away with +0 they can be made by create (greater) undead, so you could shove one of those in a contingency or buy a casting of it on yourself and be good to go.

[Vizzerdrix]

Evolved Undead is a template you can put on an already undead creature that's +1 IIRC.

Indeed it is. You can stack it with itself too, for what that is worth.

[Fouredged Sword]

What you really want to do is get turned into an undead by someone with the various undead boosting feats. Corpse crafter and other feats of that ilk are very useful for ensuring that you end up with boost unattached to any sort of LA. You can ensure that the spellcaster turning you into an undead has these feats through a couple of applications of Psionic Reformation. One ensures the caster has the correct feats, the second returns them to their normal build after you are done. This is an additional cost to being turned into an undead, but the bonuses are significant. +4 strength, +2 hp per HD, +10 move speed, +4 to initiative, +4 turn resistance, and +2 natural armor are nothing to shake a stick at.

[Vizzerdrix]

What you really want to do is get turned into an undead by someone with the various undead boosting feats. Corpse crafter and other feats of that ilk are very useful for ensuring that you end up with boost unattached to any sort of LA. You can ensure that the spellcaster turning you into an undead has these feats through a couple of applications of Psionic Reformation. One ensures the caster has the correct feats, the second returns them to their normal build after you are done. This is an additional cost to being turned into an undead, but the bonuses are significant. +4 strength, +2 hp per HD, +10 move speed, +4 to initiative, +4 turn resistance, and +2 natural armor are nothing to shake a stick at.

Hmm... I wonder what the price would be to hire someone with those exact feats, or to run someone through Reformation that many times?

[CIDE]

Bone and Corpse both have no printed LA, being from BoVD, which is 3.0

You could argue that's LA 0 but I think MM1 or DMG says that a monster has to have a printed LA to be considered a valid player race. If you can get away with +0 they can be made by create (greater) undead, so you could shove one of those in a contingency or buy a casting of it on yourself and be good to go.

Both are pretty solidly in the +0 and +1 level of power anyway. I think it's reasonable to place it there. Both call out that Create Undead and Create Greater Undead can be used to raise a Corpse or Bone creature. The fluff involved makes me think it's RAI but due to the rules changes and 3.0isms it's, as you said, not RAW.

What you really want to do is get turned into an undead by someone with the various undead boosting feats. Corpse crafter and other feats of that ilk are very useful for ensuring that you end up with boost unattached to any sort of LA. You can ensure that the spellcaster turning you into an undead has these feats through a couple of applications of Psionic Reformation. One ensures the caster has the correct feats, the second returns them to their normal build after you are done. This is an additional cost to being turned into an undead, but the bonuses are significant. +4 strength, +2 hp per HD, +10 move speed, +4 to initiative, +4 turn resistance, and +2 natural armor are nothing to shake a stick at.

I just want to mention that this has been covered before and most people don't think it works for Necropolitan. You can do it with other types of undead but it requires that it uses a spell.

Hmm... I wonder what the price would be to hire someone with those exact feats, or to run someone through Reformation that many times?

It's a seller's market.

[Ruethgar]

I just want to mention that this has been covered before and most people don't think it works for Necropolitan. You can do it with other types of undead but it requires that it uses a spell.

If you’re using Wish to change race, then it’s covered.

[Nifft]

Hmm... I wonder what the price would be to hire someone with those exact feats, or to run someone through Reformation that many times?

CharOp: unlisted therefore free

Real Game: talk to your DM


Additionally you can become Spellstitched anytime after your creation, gaining access to spells based on your Wisdom, with a cap at 19 -- and an XP cost to the person applying the template based on your Wisdom -- so when you reach exactly 19, it's an optimal time to get the template applied.

The spells you gain are spell-like abilities, with all the usual cheese that entails.

BONUS CHEESE: Use the feat Magic in the Blood make your 1/day SLAs into all 3/day. For your 1st and 2nd level SLAs, optimal allocation is splitting the uses into one 3/day and one 1/day instead of having two 2/day. For all the higher spell levels, 1/day seems to be the default allocation.

[Doctor Despair]

Additionally you can become Spellstitched anytime after your creation, gaining access to spells based on your Wisdom, with a cap at 19 -- and an XP cost to the person applying the template based on your Wisdom -- so when you reach exactly 19, it's an optimal time to get the template applied.

The spells you gain are spell-like abilities, with all the usual cheese that entails.

BONUS CHEESE: Use the feat Magic in the Blood make your 1/day SLAs into all 3/day. For your 1st and 2nd level SLAs, optimal allocation is splitting the uses into one 3/day and one 1/day instead of having two 2/day. For all the higher spell levels, 1/day seems to be the default allocation.

Another cheesey Necropolitan optimization technique is to point out that, with a low enough wisdom score / high enough charisma score, you immediately gain a taint score of 1/2 your charisma score +1 and, with a low enough wisdom score, you gain a depravity rating that can bestow "free" bonus feats at certain levels.

Spoiler: Excerpt Summary

Show

4 or less wis: feats at 2 and 6
8 or less wis: feats at 4 and 12
12 or less wis: feats at 6 and 18
...
20 or less wis: feats at 10 and 30 (!)

Now, at 10 wis (the minimum for applying the Spellstitched template), you'd need to have 34 charisma to get that second bonus feat. Realistically, you'd need to have 8 or less wisdom to have a shot at that without super-high levels of charisma optimization, or absured WBL usage. You can, however, reasonably get the first feat with moderate charisma, or even 19 wisdom if you have charisma as a primary stat, although that makes you MAD and costs more gold than just taking the template at 10 wisdom with minor SLA bonuses.

Do you think the benefits of the Spellstitched (DR, SR, Turn Resistance, +2 Saves, some amount of spells/day, higher wis conferring a higher will save) are worth losing the free bonus taint feat? Seems like a good trade-off IMO if your build isn't dependent on the feats for whatever reason.

[Nifft]

Do you think the benefits of the Spellstitched (DR, SR, Turn Resistance, +2 Saves, some amount of spells/day, higher wis conferring a higher will save) are worth losing the free bonus taint feat? Seems like a good trade-off IMO if your build isn't dependent on the feats for whatever reason.

If you're ignoring the XP and material component costs for some SLAs which are normally balanced by those costs, then it's probably worth it.

If you're playing in a game where your living teammates would be nerfed by the inclusion of Taint, that might also be a point in favor. (In a CharOp situation that's obviously irrelevant, but some people do actually play the game...)

[Vizzerdrix]

If you're ignoring the XP and material component costs for some SLAs which are normally balanced by those costs, then it's probably worth it.

If you're playing in a game where your living teammates would be nerfed by the inclusion of Taint, that might also be a point in favor. (In a CharOp situation that's obviously irrelevant, but some people do actually play the game...)

It has always tickled me, the idea of spell stitching Leomund`s Secure Shelter onto an undead man servant for the party. Also: tactical cottage deployment.

[Nifft]

It has always tickled me, the idea of spell stitching Leomund`s Secure Shelter onto an undead man servant for the party. Also: tactical cottage deployment.

Mordenkainen's Mummified Manservant.

[Xervous]

Mordenkainen's Mummified Manservant.

Oh him? He’s the cheery corpse chair.

[Rater202]

If you’re using Wish to change race, then it’s covered.

Do Universal spells count as Necromancy spells? the feats specifically refer to Necromancy spells.

[Ruethgar]

Do Universal spells count as Necromancy spells? the feats specifically refer to Necromancy spells.

Suppose not. First thought was make is a Whispering Spell to count but that’s PF and may have just been thematically necromancy not an actual conversion for non-necro spells.

[Doctor Despair]

I suppose, very technically, the chain of feats reads...

Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains...

... so you could raise or create an undead creature with the benefits, destroy it, then bring it to life, at which point you could either leave the creature alone or have it take the Necropolitan template. There's no mechanism to revoke the bonuses from the undead creature once it is destroyed or stops being undead, so it should retain all the benefits of these feats after having been raised just once, I think.