The Advantage of Disadvantage

[nalgarryn]

Is it possible to abuse the rules around Advantage/Disadvantage to have a net gain?

For example:

• Have a ready source of Advantage
• Stack Multiple Sources of Disadvantage
• Fight with neither Advantage nor Disadvantage
• Benefit overall because you're ignoring Disadvantage from multiple sources whilst benefiting from associated bonuses (i.e. prone, heavy armor)
• Also - Abuse Lucky when you don't have Advantage, but multiple sources of Disadvantage for Tri-Vantage/Superadvantage

Does anyone have a character build that works like this?

[MrStabby]

I wouldn't say a build...but it is the foundation of a lot of tactical play.

If an invisible enemy archer is shooting at you, you may as well go prone when shooting back. You had disadvantage anyway and now your disadvantage to be hit canclels their advantage.

If you are restrained, you may as well cast fog cloud - you are not going to be any more disadvantaged but it helps stop your enemies seeing.


The closest I think it comes to a "build" is in using things like kobalds or drow with daylight sensitivity and then obviating the disadvantages.

[Cikomyr2]

Barbarians who are already targeted with advantage should always go all in with Reckless attacks.

In fact, having utter blindness for everyone advantages the Barbarian there.

[Keravath]

Barbarians who are already targeted with advantage should always go all in with Reckless attacks.

In fact, having utter blindness for everyone advantages the Barbarian there.

If everyone is blinded by fog cloud or darkness for example, the barbarian reckless attack won't do anything. On the other hand, if the barbarian is blinded and others can still see them then reckless will at least cancel the disadvantage the barbarian has against opponents they can't see but which can still see them.

The most common use of the tactic is casting fog cloud or darkness to offset some source of disadvantage for the party or advantage for the opponents or both. (as long as one side doesn't have blindsight).

e.g. fighting an invisible stalker? Casting fog cloud or darkness puts everything on an even footing. If you have a ranged weapon and are forced to fight in melee then darkness/fog cloud makes everything a straight roll. Fighting a prone opponent? Darkness/fog cloud makes all attacks a straight roll. Ranged attacks are normal but adjacent attacks that would usually have advantage are also normal.

Blocking vision for both sides can have some interesting and useful effects from a tactical perspective.

The closest I have seen to builds based on vision manipulation would be the classic warlock darkness+devils sight which gives the warlock advantage while having a minimal impact on their team mates since all their attacks remain straight rolls no matter what the circumstances as long as neither side can see the other.

[Cikomyr2]

If everyone is blinded by fog cloud or darkness for example, the barbarian reckless attack won't do anything. On the other hand, if the barbarian is blinded and others can still see them then reckless will at least cancel the disadvantage the barbarian has against opponents they can't see but which can still see them.

Hmmm right. Nevermind, j had that badly thought

[BloodSnake'sCha]

In a group I DM for all the members of the party have the ability to see through magical darkness(well, the moon druid have a shape with blind sight do he can see through more stuff).

They attacked a hobgoblin base, the hobgoblin devastator cast a level 3 fog cloud over all the stronghold, the second one cast lighting bolts into the areas he knew the party is.

As a tactic it work great for the PCs and the NPCs.

I wouldn't say a build...but it is the foundation of a lot of tactical play.

If an invisible enemy archer is shooting at you, you may as well go prone when shooting back. You had disadvantage anyway and now your disadvantage to be hit canclels their advantage.

If you are restrained, you may as well cast fog cloud - you are not going to be any more disadvantaged but it helps stop your enemies seeing.


The closest I think it comes to a "build" is in using things like kobalds or drow with daylight sensitivity and then obviating the disadvantages.

I remember a player in one of my groups didn't understand why I told him he buffed the enemy drow with hand crossbows that were sniping use from 100ft by casting darkness.
Instead of attacking us with disadvantage they attacked us with advantage.

[Tes]

I remember a player in one of my groups didn't understand why I told him he buffed the enemy drow with hand crossbows that were sniping use from 100ft by casting darkness.
Instead of attacking us with disadvantage they attacked us with advantage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those Drow are shooting at long range and are still unable to see you through magical darkness. Both of which would give them Disadvantage.
This mostly has the usual problem that everyone in the party without the ability to see in magical darkness couldn't cast targeted spells and would have Disadvantage on their own attacks as well.

Or are you referring to granting the Drow Advantage against the PCs because the PCs can't see them, cancelling out the Disadvantage from Darkness and long range? I'm probably gonna facepalm hard if my DM makes that kind of ruling.

Mechanically it makes sense to drag everyone down with you if
- you suffer Disadvantage anyway (Sunlight Sensitivity, lack of Darkvision)
- have an easy cancel for Disadvantage (Pack Tactics, Wolf Barb...)
- benefit more from exponential difficulty to hit stuff than opponents (i.e. your AC is a lot higher than theirs)

I'm all for conditional modifiers outside of Advantage/Disadvantage. The game doesn't have an explicit rule for it, but there are quite a few things inflicting a -5 or a +10 in the game. If players are trying to cancel 2+ sources of Disadvantage with one thing that grants Advantage I'd probably slap a -5 on them for every instance they didn't cancel. Since players hate negatives, it would usually increase the DC by 5 for fumbling around in the dark while tied up or raise the other guy's AC by 5 (mechanically the same as a -5 anyway).

RAW you can definitely abuse this though, completely fine if nobody minds the mechanics trumping immersion.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those Drow are shooting at long range and are still unable to see you through magical darkness. Both of which would give them Disadvantage.
This mostly has the usual problem that everyone in the party without the ability to see in magical darkness couldn't cast targeted spells and would have Disadvantage on their own attacks as well.

Or are you referring to granting the Drow Advantage against the PCs because the PCs can't see them, cancelling out the Disadvantage from Darkness and long range? I'm probably gonna facepalm hard if my DM makes that kind of ruling.

Exactly.
The problem is that the rules doesn't need to make sense, they need to be balanced.

This is why I think it was right to stick with the written rule.

Anyway, this player is the "problem player" of the group. The one who rush in, try to kill everything and have 0 tactical sense.
(We still like to play with him, he gives us very interesting RP options we otherwise wont have and he also make the fights harder so we will have more fun trying to solve them).
So it was good to give him a lesson on tactics and how advantage and disadvantage work.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's a few unique things you can do to abuse this:

Rogue is able to Sneak Attack with Disadvantage in a double-blind situation.

Alert nullifies Advantage on your enemy's chance to hit against you if it's caused from vision effects (like if you were blind). This is good if you can force double-blindness, like a Shadow Monk.

It's debatable, but Portent could be the most effective when there are fewer dice rolls to replace from.

And there's the dumb long-range blind shot situation that people have already mentioned.