Fixing True Strike

[Osuniev]

Probably, yeah. It takes a sorcerer 3 sorcery points to do that but why would they if they can do it at the cost of a cantrip?

Because the Sorcery points don't cost an action, unlike True Strike.

[Asisreo1]

Because the Sorcery points don't cost an action, unlike True Strike.

You can also twin True Strike, which means you give disadvantage on two enemies at once. That's very very good.

Even if you aren't a sorcerer, you'll always use true strike before casting a save spell because it's a limited resource and can completely flip encounters. I know cantrips scale but they definitely fall off at higher levels where you can basically cast as many leveled spells as you can and still have leftovers. But true strike would only get massively better the higher your tier (because of spell manipulation abilities and limits).

[Osuniev]

Let's See what are the Spells that benefit the most from True Strike :

Lvl 1 :
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Ray of Sickness
Ice Knife

Lvl 2:
Melf's Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Vampiric Touch

Lvl 5
Steel Wind Strike

Lvl 7
Crown of Stars
Plane Shift (when used as a weaker Banishment).

aaaaaaand That's it. These are all the spells which are :
- an Attack
- on the Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer or Wizard Spell lists (which can pick up True Strike without a feat or multiclassing)
- not concentration

None of those spells are really overpowered.

Ray of Sickness is a debuff, so delaying their casting by one turn matters.
Scorching Rays, Steel Wind Strike and Crown of Stars are multiple separate attacks so only one benefits from True Strike
Vampiric Touch is used for healing the caster, but if you're low on HP, spending one turn concentrating on True Strike is a risk. And if you lost HP between your 1st and 2nd turn, you have a chance of losing concentration.
Plane Shift is already not optimal when used to Banish, and allows a Charisma save in addition to the attack roll.


With that in mind, I'm now convinced making True Strike an automatic Critical (IF the attack lands) is fine and won't overpower anything.

II suppose you could do much better multiclassing it or taking it with a feat, but that's ok in my books if a player wants to do the effort.

A Cleric could use it to greater effect in boosting Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon or Guiding Bolt. That may be the strongest use, but how many Clerics actually multiclass in Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard or take Magic Initiate ?
A Paladin or Rogue could use it to boost a Smite or Sneak Attack, but :
- the Paladin would be wasting one turn of multiattack (except at lvl 4, only moment where they would really have a chance of picking uup True Strike with Magic Initiate). Plus, being in Melee, they have a decent chance of losing concentration.
- the Rogue is not better of than if they attack on BOTH turns since SA doesn't cost ressources (except situationally when the 1st turn could not get advantage/SA, in which case it's fine, we want the spell to be useful).



Does anyone feel like I missed something ?

[Asisreo1]

Let's See what are the Spells that benefit the most from True Strike :

Lvl 1 :
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Ray of Sickness

Lvl 2:
Melf's Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Vampiric Touch


aaaaaaand That's it. These are all the spells which are :
- an Attack
- on the Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer or Wizard Spell lists (which can pick up True Strike without a feat or multiclassing)
- not concentration

None of those spells are really overpowered.

Ray of Sickness is a debuff, so delaying their casting by one turn matters.
Scorching Rays are 3 separate attacks so only one benefits from True Strike
Vampiric Touch is used for healing the caster, but if you're low on HP, spending one turn concentrating on True Strike is a risk. And if you lost HP between your 1st and 2nd turn, you have a chance of losing concentration.


II suppose you could do much better multiclassing it or taking it with a feat, but that's ok in my books if a player wants to do the effort.

A Cleric could use it to greater effect in boosting Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon or Guiding Bolt. That may be the strongest use, but how many Clerics actually multiclass in Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wiard or take Magic Initiate ?
A Paladin or Rogue could use it to boost a Smite or Sneak Attack, but :
- the Paladin would be wasting one turn of multiattack (except at lvl 4, only moment where they would really have a chance of picking uup True Strike with Magic Initiate). Plus, being in Melee, they have a decent chance of losing concentration.
- the Rogue is not better of than if they attack on BOTH turns since SA doesn't cost ressources (except situationally when the 1st turn could not get advantage/SA, in which case it's fine).


With that in mind, I'm now convinced making True Strike an automatic Critical (IF the attack lands) is fine and won't overpower anything.

Does anyone feel like I missed something ?

Plane Shift is an attack roll spell.

Anyways, true strike being a critical isn't overpowered, it's underpowered. You've shown how few spells can actually capitalize on True Strike. What're you going to use it on? Chromatic orb isn't an amazing spell and scales horribly. You've listed reasons why the others don't quite hold up.

If you use it on cantrips, you could've casted the cantrip twice. If you use it on an extra attack user, they'll use up a whole action for something that's less equivalent than a single attack anyways, with maybe an exception from a Barbarian (but True strike for barbarians?)

True Strike needs to be a buff that makes it worth losing a turn, otherwise it isn't useful at all. If anyone has played Turn-based RPG videogame, a spell that does a one-time boost that costs a turn should boost the attack at least x3 to make it worth it. Otherwise, there wasn't any point.

I propose True Strike lets an attack roll do 3x damage on the first hit, all else equal. It would be quite good for Eldritch Knights but it's still taking away a multiattack and eventually falls off at tier 4, as cantrips should. Arcane Tricksters may have a field day with it but they also use up an action, though it doesn't fall of as much at tier 4. It's still useful for cantrip users since the spell will always be a bulk damage per attack roll (with the exception of eldritch blast, where true strike would fall off at tier 4 as well).

[Yakk]

Paladin Whispers bard with a flametongue longsword. 12d8(54)+14d6(49)+7=110 damage crit (4th level spell slot and a 5/short rest ability).

2 attacks deal 2d8(9)+4d6(14)+14=37.

A smite+whisper is 5d8+5d6=40. So 2 attacks+smite+whisper is 77 damage.

So True Strike cantrip adds 33 damage to the combo.

I guess 128.5 isn't a broken 2 turn combo.

[Yuroch Kern]

I just remove Concentration. It opens up a couple more combos, and instead of a specific enemy in 30', it's a recipient in 10'. Every other limit applies. Not too bad.

[Tes]

Well. let's look on a criteria list:
Current
- only S Components
- costs your Action
- self only
- 30 ft range single target
- Concentration w duration 6 seconds
- Advantage on Casters next turn for the first attack roll

Current uses:
Precast against a fairly close target from hiding for a better Surprise Round.... if the target can't hear you muttering, you're using something with attack rolls and aren't maintaining Concentration on something else.

List of options stuff to fiddle with:
- make it targetable to Partymembers
- increase Range to allow "Sniping"
- allow it to work with a full Attack Action/spell/turn
- change/build on Advantage - +10 to hit, ignore 1/2 & 3/4 cover, ignore Blur, ignore Mirror Image
- remove Concentration
- make it work with DC based single target spells

Autohits are bad in my book and so are auto crits. Too many things that can go wrong there, stuff should always be able to fail even if you need double 1s on a D20. Advantage can be very easy to grab so I'd probably remove Advantage from it and go with ignore Disadvantage, +10 to hit and make it ignore things that make you miss (as listed above, cover, Blur, Mirror image...). I agree it should work on the next attack against the target rather than next turn (allowing some synergy with Booming Blade/Sentinel AoOs and Quicken) but keep it one roll.
Increase the DC of the next Attack by half your Proficiency Modifier against the target, doesn't work with AOE or multitarget Spells.
Remove Concentration when cast on self, so you can use it to set up stuff like Ensnaring Strike etc.
Allow casting on others with Concentration required.



Things I wouldn't do personally:
Have it impact crit chance or autocrit. That's just going to make yet another combo it works best with, dunno Half Orc Great Axe Gish Sorladin twinning True Strike and then twin 2 autocrit Booming Blades + smiting on top of the guaranteed crits.
It's still a Cantrip it should be useful and compliment more efficient use of Spellslots, not just ideal for better (single target) DPR. Temporarily circumventing fairly low level defensive Spells in exchange for an Action is useful but not going to break the game.
Increasing DC and to Hit chance makes some stuff double dip and increases the fairly limited amount of Spells it works with right now, up to 3 extra DC keeps it relevant even in higher tiers.

[Tanarii]

Current uses:
Precast against a fairly close target from hiding for a better Surprise Round.... if the target can't hear you muttering, you're using something with attack rolls and aren't maintaining Concentration on something else.

If you attack from hiding you already get advantage on your attack roll.

There is no muttering because it is S only.

It's uses are:
- your next spell is going to be an attack roll & no concentration spell using your highest level slot. Or at least one you can't afford to blow easily. Basically that means an upcast Chromatic Orb.
- you cannot make an attack because all you've got are melee attacks, and you're just out of reach.
- you're in the open, combat hasn't started, and your DM generously rules that it isn't obviously casting a spell, just pointing at someone.

[BarneyBent]

Make it a Bonus Action to cast. If you’re worried about this being abused by martials (e.g. a Swashbuckler who won’t be bonus action hiding) in the early levels then you can also remove concentration but require a CHA saving throw. This means martials will have to invest in the relevant spell casting statistic to make it land regularly, removing concentration so it’s not too much of a penalty to casters.

[Asisreo1]

Something about True Strike is it can be used before you become polymorphed by an ally and your first, likely buffed, attack has advantage which may have better efficiency than any of your non-ploymorph actions on the previous turn.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's uses are:
- your next spell is going to be an attack roll & no concentration spell using your highest level slot. Or at least one you can't afford to blow easily. Basically that means an upcast Chromatic Orb.

People keep saying this, but a quick look suggests to me that there are 15 Wizard spells that meet the criteria.

[Osuniev]

People keep saying this, but a quick look suggests to me that there are 15 Wizard spells that meet the criteria.

Which ones ? Because I've found only 7 spells in the Bard, Warlock, Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists.
(Note that Concentration Spells won't work since true strike is Concentration)

[Osuniev]

W
Things I wouldn't do personally:
Have it impact crit chance or autocrit. That's just going to make yet another combo it works best with, dunno Half Orc Great Axe Gish Sorladin twinning True Strike and then twin 2 autocrit Booming Blades + smiting on top of the guaranteed crits.

I've honestly been looking and haven't found any way to abuse the autocrit. As others have pointed out, it is still often better to do two attacks and not waste your concentration. It's often still better to attack on the first turn. Not always of course, which is why I think it's a good fix.

[Mr Adventurer]

Which ones ? Because I've found only 7 spells in the Bard, Warlock, Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists.
(Note that Concentration Spells won't work since true strike is Concentration)

Booming Blade
Chaos Bolt
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Crown of Stars
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Ice Knife
Melf's Acid Arrow
Plane Shift
Ray of Frost
Ray of Sickness
Scorching Ray
Shocking Grasp
Steel Wind Strike

[Chronos]

Most of those are cantrips, which means there's no reason at all not to just cast the attack cantrip twice instead of True Strike plus the other cantrip.

[Tes]

I've honestly been looking and haven't found any way to abuse the autocrit. As others have pointed out, it is still often better to do two attacks and not waste your concentration. It's often still better to attack on the first turn. Not always of course, which is why I think it's a good fix.

You literally quoted the example about where automatic crits would be abuseable.
Any sort of Smites for double dice/Spellslot and other on crit effects (Half Orc).

Using a Cantrip and a couple Sorcery points to blast two things with a critical Booming Blade +10D8 each for a couple Sorcery points seems good enough to me.
Potential Paladin 2/ Sorcerer X/Warlock X for double autocrits with double dice Smite + Eldridch Smites is probably not any more problematic than the existing Sorladin options, but it doesn't work well for the "standard guy" and adds just another build to the list that outclasses "normal" ones.

[Zhorn]

I feel there are a lot of traps to fall into with a True Strike redesign.

As a cantrip, what it needs to be is simple and not overpowered.

Advantage is one of those potentially overpowered parts, especially with trying to get it as a same-turn + concentration-free + compatible with levelled spells, etc.

Levelled spell comparability is another big one. If you're changing it to a bonus action cantrip that you can pair with other spells on the same turn, it's not just a strong pairing, but outright overpowered. Isn't that the definition? Something so much stronger than the alternative choices that it is THE pick to make every time?

So then there's the challenge of once you get the parts you want, what restrictions you need to place on it to reign in the power-scale, or up the cost to match the value you are getting from it.

This is where reading a lot of the redesign ideas, there's many of them which are either getting too complicated with multiple caveats and non-linear scaling (some read like a progression of class features more than just a cantrip), or outright OP where the redesigner is wanting everything with it costing near nothing in return.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Just thinking out loud. I like reading the ideas people are coming up with, and want to encourage folks to bring their ideas forwards. True Strike as it exists in RAW is just bad, but it doesn't mean that the solution is to do the exact opposite of its design, or that there doesn't exist some reasons behind the design choices.
When working on those redesigns, be sure to think what the core goals of the spell should be, what the cost should be, and where it would sit on the power-scale against the other options available.

[Tanarii]

Booming Blade
Chaos Bolt
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Crown of Stars
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Ice Knife
Melf's Acid Arrow
Plane Shift
Ray of Frost
Ray of Sickness
Scorching Ray
Shocking Grasp
Steel Wind Strike

Cantrips don't count. It's superior to just cast them twice.

Spells people don't take because they are subpar in their own right:
Chaos Bolt
Melfs
Ray of sickness

Scorching Ray and crown of stars the damage is over multiple attacks, and CoS is also over multiple rounds. steel wind strike is multiple targets AND it can't be upcast.

Okay fine, amended comment: ... which pretty much means upcasting Chromatic Orb and Iceknife, or Plane shift.

[Osuniev]

Booming Blade
Chaos Bolt
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Crown of Stars
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Ice Knife
Melf's Acid Arrow
Plane Shift
Ray of Frost
Ray of Sickness
Scorching Ray
Shocking Grasp
Steel Wind Strike

As has been said above :
- cantrips don't count since you're better of casting them twice
- Ray of Sickness would not double the debuff, and would delay the debuff by one turn
- Scorching Ray, Steel Wind Strike and Crown of Stars are several attacks, so it only buffs the first of them. Again, suboptimal in most cases.
- Plane Shift used for Banishment is a 7th lvl spell slot used for a 4th level effect, AND it allows a Charisma Save anyway. If True Strike allows less chance of failing, it's a GOOD THING.

I did miss Ice Knife, however most of the damage of Ice Knife is based on a Dex Save, the Attack roll is only for 1d10 and doesn't scale.

[Osuniev]

You literally quoted the example about where automatic crits would be abuseable.
Any sort of Smites for double dice/Spellslot and other on crit effects (Half Orc).
.

I don't see this as abuse, just a good use of the ability. It makes it worth using on an on-crit effect, for characters who don't have easy access to True Strike, so there's an opportunity cost in picking Magic Initiate or multiclass.

And anyone who can Smite will be able to multiattack (except at lvl 2 to 4, where it's much harder to get access to True Strike), arguably a much better use of an action than doubling the damage of their FUTURE attack. And all the Smiting SPELLS require Concentration so cannot be combined with True Strike anyway.


Seems fine to me.

[Mr Adventurer]

Most of those are cantrips, which means there's no reason at all not to just cast the attack cantrip twice instead of True Strike plus the other cantrip.

Actually 6 out of 15 of those are cantrips, not "most".

There might be "no reason" not to cast twice in a white room scenario. Other scenarios have already been suggested in this thread.

Cantrips don't count. It's superior to just cast them twice.

Spells people don't take because they are subpar in their own right:
Chaos Bolt
Melfs
Ray of sickness

Scorching Ray and crown of stars the damage is over multiple attacks, and CoS is also over multiple rounds. steel wind strike is multiple targets AND it can't be upcast.

Okay fine, amended comment: ... which pretty much means upcasting Chromatic Orb and Iceknife, or Plane shift.

As has been said above :
- cantrips don't count since you're better of casting them twice
- Ray of Sickness would not double the debuff, and would delay the debuff by one turn
- Scorching Ray, Steel Wind Strike and Crown of Stars are several attacks, so it only buffs the first of them. Again, suboptimal in most cases.
- Plane Shift used for Banishment is a 7th lvl spell slot used for a 4th level effect, AND it allows a Charisma Save anyway. If True Strike allows less chance of failing, it's a GOOD THING.

I did miss Ice Knife, however most of the damage of Ice Knife is based on a Dex Save, the Attack roll is only for 1d10 and doesn't scale.

See my response above.

Also, though, I don't know what you're getting at with your 2nd point, I don't see the relevance of your 3rd point, and your 4th point seems to be arguing in favour of TS which AIUI is the opposite of what you're trying to say?

The point I made was only that there are more to-hit non-concentration spells than Chromatic Orb.

[Tes]

A redesign where only Sorcerers can make use of is by quickening or autocrits make better use of Smites miss the point and just add powercreep in a niche that doesn't really need help.
It's creating a new problem rather than fixing the existing one - making True Strike worth casting... sometimes... over a damage Cantrip in Combat.

You can obviously do whatever you want in your own game. Stacking Advantage and automatic Crits is fine if you think its fine for your table and no one is gonna abuse the heck out of it
I would though.

[Asisreo1]

People love to yell how incompetent the game designers are, yet these design problems leave people scratching their heads for a true "fix."

We've had forums everywhere, reddit, rpgstack, enworld, and here that claim to fix True Strike yet none really stick.

I don't believe there's actually a better fix, it's just a bad spell option. You want to "reveal someone's weakness of defenses" at the cost of a cantrip. With that premise, so little can be done that isn't overpowered or generally useless.

It's a legacy spell that survived because it was the iconic divination cantrip but it's function means nothing. Basically, the only real, balanced fix for it would be to remove it from the spell list.

[Osuniev]

A redesign where only Sorcerers can make use of is by quickening or autocrits make better use of Smites miss the point and just add powercreep in a niche that doesn't really need help.
It's creating a new problem rather than fixing the existing one - making True Strike worth casting... sometimes... over a damage Cantrip in Combat.

I think it goes a long way to fixing the existing problem. With this version of True Strike (everything RAW + auto crit if it hits), True Strike become useful (not broken) if you don't need concentration, can afford for your target to no go down until next round, and :
- your attack this turn is likely to fail (cover, disadvantage, you name it)
- your next attack is going to use a resource (the spells mentioned earlier)
- the combat hasn't started yet, like in an Ambush scenario
- a critical hit is better than two attacks AND you don't have Multiattack.

That is not all the time, but it's enough that I would pick it up as my 2nd or 3rd cantrip if I was a wizard, sorcerer, warlock or even Bard of Whispers. Still much better than the only uses of True Strike NOW :

- the combat hasn't started yet AND you don't already have advantage by being hidden
- you're in combat and there's NOTHING useful you can do with your action

which is so niche that it makes True Strike a trap option.

Again, if you were an Half-Orc Paladin at my table, feel free to pick up Magic Initiate or Multiclass as a Spellcaster for True Strike. I believe you wouldn't do as well as you would picking up GWF, Sentinel, Lucky, Mobile, Tough, an ASI, or any other non-suboptimal multiclass. I do not think it is an abuse. I would be glad to see you use True Strike if you did it.

Worst case scenario ? You would be slightly more powerful until you got Extra Attack, and then your cantrip would become much more situational.

[Osuniev]

Also, though, I don't know what you're getting at with your 2nd point, I don't see the relevance of your 3rd point, [...]

The point I made was only that there are more to-hit non-concentration spells than Chromatic Orb.

his 3rd point was : since most of those Spells actually call for multiple attack rolls, and True Strike only improves ONE of them, the fact that they exist doesn't mean True Strike is useful for them.

[Mr Adventurer]

his 3rd point was : since most of those Spells actually call for multiple attack rolls, and True Strike only improves ONE of them, the fact that they exist doesn't mean True Strike is useful for them.

Yes, so, irrelevant to my post, the point of which I re-iterated.

[Osuniev]

Ok that's fair, he probably thought you were replying in the context of the actual discussion, which only mentioned Spells with Attack Rolls because they were the only ones TS is useful for.

[Vogie]

I think making it a concentration-requiring version of the Cunning Action: Aim that was presented in one of the UAs would work. That way it'd be more useful for the normal PCs who would take it, while being useless for ATs and, to a lesser extent, EKs (as it is a non-bo with War Magic).

Edit: You could also have it use the Marking Mechanic from the DMG, just not tied to the weapon attack. It could also work as a faux-Warcaster, allowing the caster to make ranged or spell Attacks of Opportunity

[FabulousFizban]

trim the fat. drop the spell.

[Yuroch Kern]

Well, careful about casting it in a vacuum. Eventually, we all risk a slotted spell, face a high AC DPSer, SOMETHING, and you might be needing that one(1) Arrow of Slaying to hit the dragon. It may delay, but it grants Advantage out of the blue, often times in scenarios where you can't really have it. An Arcane Trickster kiting with it, a Sorcerer spending a couple Sorcery to combo Quickens, and Eldritch Knights being hyper-versatile with a bonded spear are ways that True strike actually becomes more useful at higher levels. Cast on its own without context is bad on paper. I only changed it for my new-to-the-game players, who are at most 14 years old. But advanced play gets pretty interesting at my other table...