New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Hey Playground,


    I had a conversation not too long ago about what a sort of not Pun-Pun amalgamated creature would look like in 3.5. Hypothetically, a creature that had the best of everything from every non-unique creature out there and were trying to figure out what that'd look like. If it duplicated the highest ability scores in the game, barring any items or tricks to have infinite scores or anything like that, what would this thing look like adjusted for a medium sized creature?

    I don't have every book and AFB from a few anyway so I thought I'd get some help for the deep dive. How insane would this thing be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    I'd imagine some combination of half-minotaur goliath with levels in each of barbarian, frenzied bererker, berserk, warhulk and maybe a couple other templates and classes can get you something pretty impressive. The number to beat is Thor's 129 from D&DG, IIRC.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, great wyrm Time Dragon (#359, p.36-41) for everything except Dex (Str 91 Dex 10 Con 73 Int 74 Wis 81 Cha 74) (Thor's Strength of 92 (102 in rage) does beat it, but I'm pretty sure Thor counts as a unique creature...)

    If not, probably the great wyrm Prismatic Dragon (ELH/SRD) for everything except Dex (Str 73 Dex 10 Con 64 Int 64 Wis 65 Cha 64).

    For Dex, probably the primal air elemental at Dex 43 (ELH/SRD).

    Even if we include unique beings, the only one which gets beaten that I can see on a quick scan over the gods is Dex, Corollan Larethian has Dex 44. The only reason Thor wins Strength is that his belt doubles his Strength score, not his actual Strength (it increases his lifting ability by 588 times).

    Edit: the great wyrm Force Dragon is stronger than the Prismatic (Str 75).

    Edit 2: and Iron Colossus beats them (Str 80)
    Last edited by Biggus; 2020-05-31 at 05:40 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2014

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    Hey Playground,


    I had a conversation not too long ago about what a sort of not Pun-Pun amalgamated creature would look like in 3.5. Hypothetically, a creature that had the best of everything from every non-unique creature out there and were trying to figure out what that'd look like. If it duplicated the highest ability scores in the game, barring any items or tricks to have infinite scores or anything like that, what would this thing look like adjusted for a medium sized creature?

    I don't have every book and AFB from a few anyway so I thought I'd get some help for the deep dive. How insane would this thing be?
    This is, from a certain perspective, a difficult question to answer. Even without tricks to get looping bonuses to attributes or anything like that...any particular creature could only purchase an item so expensive based on its level, and that purchase could only purchase so high a bonus, but the creature's level could scale indefinitely (in the case of creatures that can advance by class level). So "via epic items" probably shouldn't be allowed to count. How about items stacking spell effects? Lots of spells give attribute bonuses that aren't infinite in nature, can we stack up all those and see what happens, or is that not what you're looking for?

    Okay so what about monsters that can advance by HD indefinitely? They can get unlimited bonuses from HD (and eventually, from epic feats). I'm unsure what monsters can advance indefinitely by HD, besides dragons, but I'm sure there are some. But let's say infinite HD advancement doesn't count. Is monster HD advancement otherwise kosher? Or is there not a substantial difference in your eyes between a monster advancing from 20 HD to 200 HD and a monster advancing from 20 HD to infinite HD? Certainly this is a relevant question if the monster can advance by class level as well - that's another way to get NI bonuses to attributes from HD and epic feats. Is that allowed?

    Does templating count? You can have infinite iterations of the half-dragon template. But even if you couldn't stack the same kind (let's say you couldn't do Half-Red + Half-Red, but you could do Half-Red + Half-Black + Half-Green etc), is adding up every template in the game the kinda answer you're looking for?

    I ask all these questions, because the original post reads like it's asking "what monster's unaltered statblock has the highest number for each attribute", but the first response is reacting as if the original post asked "how high can you get attributes without cheating with loops". And those are two very different ways to read the original post and I'm wondering which one you'd like us to use, or maybe what middle ground between them you'd like us to use.


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Logic's Deathloop Mafia and Book Wombat's A Small Wager - A Practical Guide To Evil

    Avatar by AsteriskAmp

    Quote Originally Posted by Xumtiil View Post
    An Abattoir Vecna, if you will.
    My Homebrew

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    For Dex, probably the primal air elemental at Dex 43 (ELH/SRD).

    Even if we include unique beings, the only one which gets beaten that I can see on a quick scan over the gods is Dex, Corollan Larethian has Dex 44.
    Gravewyrms beat both, with a Dex of 50.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Optimization Trophies

    Looking for a finished webcomic to read, or want to recommend one to others? Check out my Completed Webcomics You'd Recommend II thread!

    Or perhaps you want something Halloweeny for the season? Halloween Webcomics II

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Gravewyrms beat both, with a Dex of 50.
    Well found, I just found Hermes in D&DG who ties with them.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    I was coming to mention Time Dragons and Gravewyrms, but they're already listed.

    Iron Colossus and Living Vault both have Str 80.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I'd imagine some combination of half-minotaur goliath with levels in each of barbarian, frenzied bererker, berserk, warhulk and maybe a couple other templates and classes can get you something pretty impressive. The number to beat is Thor's 129 from D&DG, IIRC.
    That's definitely working its way into "unique creator" territory. Also, requires class levels and isn't technically a "printed" value. I was thinking something more official, like the referenced 129 strength from Thor. Though, he's also exempt due to being a unique creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, great wyrm Time Dragon (#359, p.36-41) for everything except Dex (Str 91 Dex 10 Con 73 Int 74 Wis 81 Cha 74) (Thor's Strength of 92 (102 in rage) does beat it, but I'm pretty sure Thor counts as a unique creature...)

    If not, probably the great wyrm Prismatic Dragon (ELH/SRD) for everything except Dex (Str 73 Dex 10 Con 64 Int 64 Wis 65 Cha 64).

    For Dex, probably the primal air elemental at Dex 43 (ELH/SRD).

    Even if we include unique beings, the only one which gets beaten that I can see on a quick scan over the gods is Dex, Corollan Larethian has Dex 44. The only reason Thor wins Strength is that his belt doubles his Strength score, not his actual Strength (it increases his lifting ability by 588 times).

    Edit: the great wyrm Force Dragon is stronger than the Prismatic (Str 75).

    Edit 2: and Iron Colossus beats them (Str 80)
    I just want to point out the stats don't all have to be from a single creature. Though, I guess we can consider both Dragon magazine and non-dragon magazine as two separate entities. It does sound like the Iron colossus wins in the strength category, though. I don't think I've seen anything close to 80 anywhere else. Even adjusting for size changes.


    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    This is, from a certain perspective, a difficult question to answer. Even without tricks to get looping bonuses to attributes or anything like that...any particular creature could only purchase an item so expensive based on its level, and that purchase could only purchase so high a bonus, but the creature's level could scale indefinitely (in the case of creatures that can advance by class level). So "via epic items" probably shouldn't be allowed to count. How about items stacking spell effects? Lots of spells give attribute bonuses that aren't infinite in nature, can we stack up all those and see what happens, or is that not what you're looking for?

    Okay so what about monsters that can advance by HD indefinitely? They can get unlimited bonuses from HD (and eventually, from epic feats). I'm unsure what monsters can advance indefinitely by HD, besides dragons, but I'm sure there are some. But let's say infinite HD advancement doesn't count. Is monster HD advancement otherwise kosher? Or is there not a substantial difference in your eyes between a monster advancing from 20 HD to 200 HD and a monster advancing from 20 HD to infinite HD? Certainly this is a relevant question if the monster can advance by class level as well - that's another way to get NI bonuses to attributes from HD and epic feats. Is that allowed?

    Does templating count? You can have infinite iterations of the half-dragon template. But even if you couldn't stack the same kind (let's say you couldn't do Half-Red + Half-Red, but you could do Half-Red + Half-Black + Half-Green etc), is adding up every template in the game the kinda answer you're looking for?

    I ask all these questions, because the original post reads like it's asking "what monster's unaltered statblock has the highest number for each attribute", but the first response is reacting as if the original post asked "how high can you get attributes without cheating with loops". And those are two very different ways to read the original post and I'm wondering which one you'd like us to use, or maybe what middle ground between them you'd like us to use.

    No items, no template stacking, no class levels, no advancing HD. Just the print value for any given ability score. The idea of cheating or optimizing a way to an arbitrarily high ability score is easy and there's probably a dozen threads out there for any given ability score. That wasn't the purpose of this thread.

    Thanks for asking to clarify, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Gravewyrms beat both, with a Dex of 50.
    Even without the Gravewyrm (that thing seems really awesome anyway) the Gloom has a Dex of 46.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I was coming to mention Time Dragons and Gravewyrms, but they're already listed.

    Iron Colossus and Living Vault both have Str 80.
    Awesome. Thanks.


    So, it looks like a Str: 80 and Dex: 50 so far. The aforementioned epic dragons probably have other stats that win out but I think I'll wait a bit before just tossing those in there just yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    the highest that comes to mind for me in thor's strength in deities and demigods, 92. I have the book in a closet and unless it was faq or a different version it's 92 not 129.
    Last edited by the_tick_rules; 2020-05-31 at 07:31 PM.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TiaC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Dragon 297 has the Sphinx of Giza statted as a golem. It has a strength of 290. (It has the highest numbers in a lot of things, HD, natural armor, attack bonus, natural attack damage, DR, strength, and CR.)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Buufreak's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    That's definitely working its way into "unique creator" territory. Also, requires class levels and isn't technically a "printed" value. I was thinking something more official, like the referenced 129 strength from Thor. Though, he's also exempt due to being a unique creature.
    He's also cheating, using a belt that "doubles his strength." In quotes as this is something I highly contest, at least statistically. (Big post on gods, stats, and being forum rule friendly coming soon)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    Dragon 297 has the Sphinx of Giza statted as a golem. It has a strength of 290. (It has the highest numbers in a lot of things, HD, natural armor, attack bonus, natural attack damage, DR, strength, and CR.)
    where can I see these stats? an internet search revealed nothing I could read and I am interested in seeing this creation.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    where can I see these stats? an internet search revealed nothing I could read and I am interested in seeing this creation.
    I too would also very much like to see this creature. I remember hearing about it like 15 years ago, but never found it then, and honestly thought people might have been wrong... Supposedly it was CR 100... anywho, I can't find it in issue #297 so a more precise reference would be great!

    Found it! Its under the "Relics of Myth" page 50 in Dragon #297

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Max Caysey; 2020-06-02 at 03:29 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    Dragon 297 has the Sphinx of Giza statted as a golem. It has a strength of 290. (It has the highest numbers in a lot of things, HD, natural armor, attack bonus, natural attack damage, DR, strength, and CR.)
    That thing has some insane stats. That's crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    He's also cheating, using a belt that "doubles his strength." In quotes as this is something I highly contest, at least statistically. (Big post on gods, stats, and being forum rule friendly coming soon)
    Thor is disqualified for a lot of reasons. The dubiousness of his actual strength is a big part of it, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    I cant find the actual stats of the sphinx online, where did you find them?
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    In eternity.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    jmax of the Shapechange Handbook would like to know these if they're of 28 HD or less. (25 from the spell + 3 from Reserves of Strength.)
    Quote Originally Posted by GPuzzle View Post
    And I do agree that the right answer to the magic/mundane problem is to make everyone badass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If you're of a philosophical bent, the powergamer is a great example of Heidegger's modern technological man, who treats a game's mechanics as a standing reserve of undifferentiated resources that are to be used for his goals.
    My Complete Tome of Battle Maneuver/Stance/Class Overhaul

    Arseplomancy = Fanatic Tarrasque!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    I cant find the actual stats of the sphinx online, where did you find them?
    There's a site called internet archive: dragon magazine which has them all from #1 to #430. I won't link to it here because I don't know if it's legal.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    biggrin Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    If we include 3rd party material, the Immortals Handbook has some stupidly powerful epic beings, some with six-figure ability scores from memory.

    Be warned: pretty much no table anywhere takes the book seriously.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    If we include 3rd party material, the Immortals Handbook has some stupidly powerful epic beings, some with six-figure ability scores from memory.

    Be warned: pretty much no table anywhere takes the book seriously.
    Indeed... I actually think there were a lot of good ideas in the two books, the Ascension and Bestiality that came out, however both were unfinished iirc... and well they are meant for stupidly high epic levels games... like above level 50 at least. But I can certainly see a place for them. Once your characters become so powerful they completely leave the confines of mortality... When the group are the strongest individuals in their crystal sphere and when the most powerful of great wyrm prismatic dragons poses no more threat than does the most powerful termite, then you break out that book!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Highest printed ability scores in the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    If we include 3rd party material, the Immortals Handbook has some stupidly powerful epic beings, some with six-figure ability scores from memory.

    Be warned: pretty much no table anywhere takes the book seriously.
    Some 3rd party is fine for the sake of this discussion but that book reaches a bit far for a variety of reasons. I do know that some aspects of it are used by my friends but almost exclusively for lore building.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Friends don't let friends do Starmetal.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •