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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    I mean, no real need to optimize as 2 characters per player with 6 players is going to end in a ship show, and completely unplayable in combat, thanks to the throughput limitations of turn based combat, and unoptimized software handling the system. It's going to come screeching to a halt half way through the first session.

    But regardless. What is the single best 2-character combination you guys can come up with?

    Rules: No (combat) summoning nor (combat) companions. We are overloading the system enough already.

    For the actual game, I was thinking of just having a counter spell specialist and then.....maybe an AoE healer. This way I have a rather strict script to stick to and don't take basically any time in combat. Then again, a lot of players probably built pocket healers, so it's a bit redundant. But I don't know.

    Edit: The group was just what caused me to want to make this thread. I am actually interested in what the playground can produce, in terms of 2 synergizing characters.
    Like, OK, sure, 2 pun-puns are probably the most powerful, but not due to any inherent synergy between them.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2020-05-31 at 06:20 PM.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    "Optimal" as a player min-max perspective would look quite different from optimal as a playability perspective.

    As a DM, I would tend to prefer the latter.


    Optimizing a group for 2xPC playability would have constraints like...

    - Make sure every player is engaged for most subsets of play, which means that if we have a "stealth scout" group then each player ought to have 1 PC who can participate. Similarly, each player should have 1 PC who can step up at a social challenge. (Every PC is by default combat-capable so that's almost a freebie.)

    - Make sure each player has roughly comparable prep and play complexity. This would mean constraints like: one full-caster at most per player; if you usually need extra time to pick daily spells, your other character should be even simpler.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    12 PCs worth of actions per round? One that does the things and one that mostly produces simple passive buffs for the other. Something like a warblade and a marshal seems like it could be fun without getting insanely slow. The last thing you want is a mess of casters though.
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    There's a difference between "this is the role I want my PC to fill, how can I optimally fill that role without going too far" and "how should I build two characters to optimally fit my group".

    If the entire group was just the two characters, that'd be more of a challenge, since they have to be the entire party. But since the party is huge, you could play basically anything, build it well, and end up being helpful. Honestly the bigger problem is going to be avoiding stepping on each other's toes.

    If I was going to give any generic optimization advice regarding a group this big, it'd be to focus on buffing and support. In a normal party, you can cast Haste and it'll buff maybe three party members who can actually use it. In a group like this...maybe double that...or triple, even? Any buff that's "one target per CL" or "all targets within 50 ft" or something like that is going to be a lot more powerful in a huge group than it would be normally. Any optimal Bard, Marshal, or War Weaver build will get you pretty far, honestly.


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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Mentioning the group was just me explaining what caused me to want to make this thread. I am actually, unironically interested in what the playground can produce, in terms of 2 synergizing characters.

    Like, OK, sure, 2 pun-puns are probably the most powerful, but not due to any inherent synergy between them.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2020-05-31 at 06:19 PM.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    What level range are you wanting to look at?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xumtiil View Post
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    What level range are you wanting to look at?
    No idea. I guess we can say level 5.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    No idea. I guess we can say level 5.
    Real simple answers:

    1) Two rogues.

    Normal rogue issues boil down to "not enough skill points to cover the roles I want" and "have to work to get SA every round". Having a second rogue to split skill duties with makes it easier to always have something to do out of combat without stepping on your own toes (you don't wanna play two face characters, for example - easier to play good cop or bad cop and get another player to help than to play both yourself). And two rogues makes getting SA a whole lot simpler: just flank with your rogue buddy.

    2) Two wizards.

    Both are Elven Generalist, Aerenal Arcanist, Collegiate Wizard, Greyhawk Method (in whatever combo your DM allows). The goal is to maximize free spells for both, and have them select different spells. This alone gives you access to tons more spells than any one wizard could have on his own, but you can make it even better. The cost to scribe a spell into your spellbook is 100 gp per page (and one page per spell level). Geometer 2 lets you make it one page per spell, but that's ECL 8 minimum, while a Blessed Book removes the cost entirely. But that's just the cost to scribe, you also need the cost to have a scroll or borrow another person's spellbook to scribe from in the first place, at a rate of 50 gp per spell level...but if you're doing a spell exchange, and you both have the same number of spells you can learn from each other, that's essentially "I give you 10k, then you give me 10k", and now you both have doubled your spell access for 2/3 the normal price (or no inherent scribing cost, if you're using Blessed Books).

    3) Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker + Bard or Beguiler or Sorcerer or Wizard capable of mind-control.

    Frenzied Berserker has some serious melee potential, with an easy PA stack to add onto the usual Shock Trooper Leap Attack pounce nonsense. But FB gets a bad rap because when the fight is over, the berserker turns their eye towards the party and has to be dealt with. Normally, dealing with this either requires PvP at the end of the fight, or requires the Berserker to accept a domination effect prior to the fight (which removes that player's agency over their own character). The advantage to this set-up, though, is that you're both characters, so PC 1 dominating PC 2 isn't removing the agency of PC 2's player. This gives the benefits of frenzy without the drawbacks. This will come online a few levels after what you've asked, but feels more like the kinda synergy you were asking for than either of my above suggestions.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xumtiil View Post
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Coordinate with a few other people in the group, this is going to be a band. You need to make eight Bards and four of whatever else. The builds are as follows, designate the positions of band members as you see fit:

    Two bards take Inspire Awe and focus on debuffing the opponents, everyone gets Melodic Casting. Take Haunting Melody and Doomspeak, plan to also get Fell Frighten Spell. Get Intimidate as a class skill with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered. Go Bard 8/ Dread Witch 1/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4.

    One bard optimizes Inspire Courage normally, no DFI, everyone gets Melodic Casting. Take Bard 8/ Mindbender 1/ Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord/ Casting PrCs.

    Five bards optimize Inspire Courage with DFI, everyone gets Melodic Casting. Four of these have a Sorcerer dip with the dragonblood substitution level so you have one each for acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. Otherwise follow the above build, replace one of the dips with that Sorcerer level for those who have it.

    All of the above should have shortbows, or longbows if proficient. Those who can afford it have point-blank shot and precise shot and even rapid shot.


    For the other four in the party, I'd go as follows:

    Their agent, and the party trapmonkey: Illumian (Krau/anything), Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Whatever 5, with Able Learner and Versatile Spellcaster and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler to apply all ten UM levels toward Wizard. Spells should mostly be debuffs and choice party buffs, plus problem solving. He yells at the opponents about trying to sneak into the show, or about needing a backstage pass.

    Roadie (i.e. support): Cleric with DMM: Persist who buffs the team with Elation, Mass Lesser Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc. Should be melee-capable, probably take Stand Still. A lot of sighing and mumbling about having to fix whatever just happened.

    Two bouncers: Large size (half-minotaur earth dwarf?) Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, chain trippers with Dungeoncrasher and the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels, can take Weapon Supremacy at 20th. They tell opponents to keep off the stage while the band is performing.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Normal play:
    Inspire Courage-focused Bard.
    TWF Rogue.

    Bard has various free sneak attack spells(Grease, Glitterdust, Invis, etc), as well as being able to hold their own in melee at least enough to provide a Flank. Bard can also put ranks into whatever skills your Rogue doesn't want to bother with(all social skills). IC boosts all 12 characters, half of whom will be melee fighters, and cancels out the penalties for TWF.

    Broken, most broken after ECL 8:
    Fear-based Arcane Caster, headed for Dread Witch.
    Intimidating Rage Barbarian, headed for Frenzied Berserker.

    Standard Fear Juggle. Both chars can toss out lots of fear effects, fear effects often are no save or save for half, and they stack. In round 1, both drop various aoe fear effects, leave most of the enemies panicked, proceed to mop up. At ECL 8, the Dread Witch no longer cares about fear immunity. Before that point, run specific counters to the various creature types that are immune to fear. If you do encounter entire Paladin parties attacking you, you're still a Barbarian and an Arcane caster, with all the advantages that entails. Frenzied Berserker can be dangerous, but you can build him to be specifically vulnerable to the arcane caster in many ways depending on your playstyle, to keep him from going out of control.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    3.5, Pathfinder, Dreamscarred, Other 3rd Party?
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Least optimal, IMO, would be the army of temporary, situational buff-bots. Nothing (besides poorly-played minions) brings a game to a crawl like having to wade through a flowchart of "do we have" and "does it apply" on every action.

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    smile Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    I would personally play two psions of some flavor or other and do a Power Point recharge. Normally, power point recharge is questionable because "You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind..." but with two characters, there is no question, bestow power is being used as intended. Then you have double the power selection and infinite power points to manifest those powers. Nice power boost there.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Hmm... I would attempt to streamline my turns. To that end, I would want as much passive contribution as I could muster. I would play one character as a melee of some sort. Most likely something with partial casting. A wildshape ranger (or maybe a mystic ranger with divine minion?) into daggerspell shaper perhaps, as I have always wanted to try that build.

    The second character would be that one race that is a pair of twins (The Divati*). The name escapes me at the moment. But I would send them right into Fiend of Possession. They would then spend most of the game as my daggers. Throw a bit of psionics into the mix as well. Put them in charge of the shapesand, and call it a day.

    Now, I only ever have to really deal with one character.

    *Thanks Kelb!
    Last edited by Vizzerdrix; 2020-05-31 at 11:23 PM.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    Hmm... I would attempt to streamline my turns. To that end, I would want as much passive contribution as I could muster. I would play one character as a melee of some sort. Most likely something with partial casting. A wildshape ranger (or maybe a mystic ranger with divine minion?) into daggerspell shaper perhaps, as I have always wanted to try that build.

    The second character would be that one race that is a pair of twins. The name escapes me at the moment. But I would send them right into Fiend of Possession. They would then spend most of the game as my daggers. Throw a bit of psionics into the mix as well. Put them in charge of the shapesand, and call it a day.
    That's the dvati you're thinking of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    That's the dvati you're thinking of.
    Is it? I could have sworn they where the demony hellboy looking race.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    Is it? I could have sworn they where the demony hellboy looking race.
    I know the ones you're talking about but the dvati are definitely the twins with one soul race. I can't remember the other race's name but I do think it started with a d too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    I would personally play two psions of some flavor or other and do a Power Point recharge. Normally, power point recharge is questionable because "You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind..." but with two characters, there is no question, bestow power is being used as intended. Then you have double the power selection and infinite power points to manifest those powers. Nice power boost there.
    This is actually brilliant, go with this one. Make one a Warforged Shaper, the other maybe an Ardent/Cleric/Psychic Theurge.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Gotta start homework, so I can't work on this anymore. But here's my unfinished



    Brothers in Crime: The Delacroix Twins

    Lucas Delacroix: Human Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 7 / Arcane Trickster 8 (Able Learner Feat)
    Valentin Delacroix: Human Rogue 1 / Cloistered Cleric 19 (Able Learner feat)



    Getting Pumped Up

    Hanz:
    Franz:



    Summer and Winter: Mismatched BFFs

    Blossom: Verdant Sorcerer 20
    Crystal: Boreal Sorcerer 20

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    3.5, Pathfinder, Dreamscarred, Other 3rd Party?
    all of the above?

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Pick something like artificer which is brokenly OP. Then something like druid or psion thats brokenly OP at the low levels when the Artificer needs to be carried.

    With prestige class spell lists I'd say the Artificer can proceed to solo the game at like level 6 where he can carry the low level character that was carrying him.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    For me, optimizing playing 2 characters - much like utilizing playing one - means…

    Maximizing the amount of time that the character *can* participate.

    Minimizing the amount of time that the character *must* participate.

    Or, from another PoV, maximizing the characters range, minimizing the parts dependence on them. Or, from yet another PoV, maximizing their number of "participation trophies", minimizing their MVP awards.

    Or, from another PoV, balance to the table.

    Character personality should be optimized similarly, IMO - the character(s) can *participate* in most conversations/events, but do(es) not *dominate* a disproportionate number of the same.

    -----

    From yet *another* PoV, I would probably optimize characters with personalities that would lend themselves to different interests and different points of view, or otherwise make them at once distinct and not stepping on each other's toes. So, for instance, Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, fits like a glove, is readily identifiable due to the plethora of complex verbiage, and has near laser focus on magic. I would want to team him up with a… likely less established personality (or even a whole host of "dies every session" test characters), and one with broader, more grounded interests / who isn't such a nerd.

    -----

    For combat? If I needed to keep my turns simple, maybe a pair of Dark Whisper Gnome Rogues, with massive initiative bonuses, who delay for one another (so, if one rolls a "1", they might go on 11 or so), and then erase a single target. At level 5, you could have improved initiative, two weapon fighting, expert tactician, maybe weapon finesse or another initiative boost, 3d6 sneak attack… or pounce and 2d6 sneak attack, with Barbarian (or Feral?). I don't think WBL etc will make it easy to get free action movement or Hustle, sadly. If I need to speed up my turns, a program could roll the dice for me, displaying (the dice rolls and) how much of what damage they delt to what AC.

    For more power, and for giggles, a pair of Dark ½-Minotaur Thugs(? - sneak attack Fighters) with great swords or something. Less likely to get surprise, but better able to smash through DR, constructs, undead, etc.

    -----

    Actually… for me, the biggest draw of playing multiple characters is, if one goes down, you're still in the game. So a pair of melee characters with the same strengths and weaknesses kinda… almost defeats the purpose, no?

    Also, anything you can do to give your allies Haste or Pounce would likely be amazing.

    So, maybe I'd make 1 melee (Feral Kobold Rogue or something), 1 DMM Persist Haste healbot?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-06-01 at 08:26 AM.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    I’ve had games that allowed multiple characters per player. We never used more than one in combat. It ended up being a way to RP back and forth between two+ favored archetypes.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    First decade or so I played we ran 2 characters each. 3 players + DM.

    I've DMed for 11 players. I prefer 6-8, but they all showed up a few times.


    I've played at a table with 14 players. Characters were mid-20s for level (1st edition, plus a massive pile of 3pp stuff). DM and 2 assistant DMs. Went 10 sessions or so.
    Combats were generally most of a 4'x8' table for a single room, sometimes with 100 or more enemies. Playing in a wargaming club, so there were tables everywhere.

    2 characters per player runs smoother than the same amount of sheets controlled by individual players.
    Last edited by Elkad; 2020-06-01 at 11:13 AM.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    all of the above?
    So we are going to use Dreamscarred Press to boost everyone’s defenses with the varies classes that have a collective such as as Vitalist (psionic healer), Zealot (share maneuvers), Rajah with her Crown of the Moon Queen level 1 ability, etc. The nice thing about the Collective with Spirit of Many is that it is an anti-chaos, aka bad rolls effect, for you are spreading the healing throughout the entire party and can also buff at range. Likewise Rajah Crown of the Moon Queen allows you as a free action give a counter to an ally if they have one of your title veils.

    Furthermore with how those mechanics work they retain most of their power if you multiclass or theurge, while giving more flexibility to you. A vitalist cleric theurge loses almost nothing and you can easily psychic theurge via early entry. Likewise going a path of war multiclass.

    Oh yeah there are several items to allow you to add more people to your collective, add more range, or those node earrings where you gain your normal collective but the other person wearing the network node earrings acts as a repeater tower and thus you can be on different continents and still be in part of the others collective. One person can be absolutely safe behind true cover and true concealment while healing and buffing the allies at a distance.

    ————

    Another route is going War Weaver but mixing some new goodness. War Weaver from 3.5 with the feat Uncanny Forethought is able to spontaneously cast for anything with taking the small tax of two feats, a little longer casting, and a small caster level hit. Yet the war weaver effect hits the entire power so you have both a force multiplier and versatility.

    Now throw in dreamscarred press psychic mage archetype and the said characters can cast psionic powers as well. (You get a pseudo spell point wizard effect but only with psionic powers you prepare in spell slots.) Shared Power (ultimate psionics is the most recent version and improves the feat, use library of metofitz for d20pfsrd has the out of date version.) will allow you to make personal effects into touch range and the 5th level of War Weaver makes those touch range into close range and affect your entire party weaving. Now take expanded knowledge form astral armor and you can give your entire party aegis effects. Furthermore you are an excellent crafter with psychic reformation, and also sharing the psychic reformation with party members via shared power.

    Oh yeah Bulwark Power plus Shared Power allows you to buff your allies out of combat with the power activating when they are hit or fail a saving throw. Action Economy for the Win! That said this trick requires two psionic focuses but there is a half a dozen ways that is easy with dreamscarred press.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-06-01 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    all of the above?
    Whoa! Okay, you can seriously wreck things then, mostly 'cause PoW + Psionics + Teamwork feats + combat maneuver shenanigans has insane potential in such a huge party and your two PCs could have great synergy already at 5th.

    But of course, a majority of the stronger related combos I can think of aren't feasible for playability reasons, but I think there are quite a few less complex ones allowing for repeatable and stable "default action sequences" and more persistent or at least consistent party buffs, even if including PoW initiating.

    I think one such more feasible combo could be a melee boosting build pair, both with a level of PF soulknife (Gifted Blade, Living Legend) with the Marshal legendary role active, allowing them to constantly share a teamwork feat with all allies within 30'. Make one of them a half-orc skald 3+ with Amplified Rage and they'll give everyone rage and say the quick reflexes rage power, and any ally adjacent to another ally will get a whopping +6 to Str and Con from that rage, plus be able to make an additional AoO each round. If your other PC shares Paired Opportunists, this pair can boost at least all melee focused PCs on your party tremendously with very little effort.

    And if both also take their 5th level in warlord (Privateer), they'll both have full IL and be able to recover a maneuvers for everyone in 30' as a swift, while also demoralizing all enemies in 30'. Not to mention one or both could have Improved & Greater Dirty Trick (bypassing prereqs) with Combat Reflexes and Seize the Opportunity, allowing their AoOs to blind enemies.

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    Default Re: 2 characters per player, how best to optimize?

    Just keep stacking landlord feats. Those characters should be a class that doesn't need feat support to rock. An artificer and crusader. They make your home base.

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