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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Unless they split the party.

    Stealth/recon is one of those cases where splitting the party makes more sense than staying together. Just make sure you have an exfiltration strategy.
    The main reason some tables use group stealth is that they reject "split the party" as a possibility.
    [That's often the cases for tables who like big and long combat encounters. Because in this situation, a fight with not all the PCs present is a big NO because that's likely some players just looking at other play for more than an hour. So no split the party.]
    If your table reject the possibility of the stealthy ones going alone to do stealthy stuffs, you need way for stealthy PCs to still have a chance to succeed at stealth despite the presence of a loud paladin in heavy armour on his mount.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    In my first 5e party, the half-orc barbarian with an 8 Cha and no relevant proficiencies was the de facto party face, and not the 16 Cha paladin, the 18 Cha warlock, or the 20 Cha bard. It just happened that she always seemed to roll really high when it mattered, but whenever anyone else tried to do anything social, they just happened to roll low. Obviously there was some luck involved in that, because by the numbers, those other party members would have been expected to roll better than the barbarian, but the way the system is designed, it wasn't too hard to get that amount of luck. And it probably wasn't much fun for the players who had those other characters, to be built specifically to be good at certain things, and the to be consistently beat out by someone who wasn't even trying.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    The main reason some tables use group stealth is that they reject "split the party" as a possibility.
    [That's often the cases for tables who like big and long combat encounters. Because in this situation, a fight with not all the PCs present is a big NO because that's likely some players just looking at other play for more than an hour. So no split the party.]
    If your table reject the possibility of the stealthy ones going alone to do stealthy stuffs, you need way for stealthy PCs to still have a chance to succeed at stealth despite the presence of a loud paladin in heavy armour on his mount.
    Split the party doesn't mean when one side gets ina fight the other doesn't.

    All it requires is the DM rule they are far enough apart that the second party doesn't give away the first. In a dungeon that could be as little at 30ft.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Split the party doesn't mean when one side gets ina fight the other doesn't.

    All it requires is the DM rule they are far enough apart that the second party doesn't give away the first. In a dungeon that could be as little at 30ft.
    Giving Away is a bit of a funny thing.

    Party splits into Group A and Group B.

    Group A is silent. Group B rolls a little lower on their stealth checks...

    So antagonists hearing group B ring alarms, grab weapons, rouse monsters, cast buff spells and go and investigate... the impact on group A isn't really that different from them also having failed their stealth check.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    The main reason some tables use group stealth is that they reject "split the party" as a possibility.
    [That's often the cases for tables who like big and long combat encounters. Because in this situation, a fight with not all the PCs present is a big NO because that's likely some players just looking at other play for more than an hour. So no split the party.]
    If your table reject the possibility of the stealthy ones going alone to do stealthy stuffs, you need way for stealthy PCs to still have a chance to succeed at stealth despite the presence of a loud paladin in heavy armour on his mount.
    You can always let the player of absent character control few of the enemies.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Osuniev View Post
    I've stopped asking for everyone to roll for Stealth when I realized with 4 to 6 players, there's a very high likelihood that ONE of them is going to roll very poorly and make everyone lose.

    It MIGHT be realistic... But it meant infiltration was ALWAYS a losing strategy for my PCs.
    Burning Wheel avoided this for exactly this reason.

    What it ended up doing is having a rule called "The Slowest and the Loudest". So what you did is have the *worst* person roll in a situation where "one person can blow it", and allow others to assist them as appropriate.

    If just one person needs to succeed I'd invert that and have the best person roll, with assists from everyone else.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Giving Away is a bit of a funny thing.

    Party splits into Group A and Group B.

    Group A is silent. Group B rolls a little lower on their stealth checks...

    So antagonists hearing group B ring alarms, grab weapons, rouse monsters, cast buff spells and go and investigate... the impact on group A isn't really that different from them also having failed their stealth check.
    How is grpup B making checks? Theyre outside of detectable range?

    My point being that outside of detectable range, if its hearing, can be as little as 60ft. So if your scouts are 30 to 60ft out in front they might be rules a separate party, if circumstances are right. Thats a distance thats easily dealt with if combat starts

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    How is grpup B making checks? Theyre outside of detectable range?

    My point being that outside of detectable range, if its hearing, can be as little as 60ft. So if your scouts are 30 to 60ft out in front they might be rules a separate party, if circumstances are right. Thats a distance thats easily dealt with if combat starts
    Well outside detectable range depends how much noise they are making. How might we determine how quiet they are? Maybe some kind of stealth check? If they are moving about then there is always a chance they hit a squeeky floorboard or brush against some bare stone with the hilt of a weapon. This doesn't mean they are heard - just that they might be.

    To be honest if they were more than about 90ft away I wouldn't bother either, but if anyone calls out to try and pass information between groups it is going to be pretty obvious - and if a signal can be seen from one group to another then any hostile character in the area.

    Either way, my point remains the same. One failed check for one group will often affect the entire party as if the whole party failed it. Be that one group never made a check or that it passed it is irrelevant. When an alarm is raised and guards start looking round, your quiet group who silently sat on their hands and never made a check can politely try and explain to the guards searching for the source of thenoices that they were not the intruders the guards were looking for, because this group is the really quiet set of intruders whereas they must have heard the loud ones. It might not work that well though.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Depending on the situation you can combat this in several ways. The biggest issue with "Skill dog piling" i see is when it comes to Knowledge checks. to combat this you could do 1 of 2 things that are very simple.

    1: Roll for the player in secret, this helps prevent meta gaming (when players see what the ally just rolled) and it also helps create better immersion.

    Example: Player 1 "What do i know about this clan"
    Me as DM: Rolls in secret their appropriate knowledge (say they roll a 2+ thier skill and its like a 10 but Dc mighta been higher to know more)
    Me as DM: "You know from old rumors that the clan use to worship a great god of thunder and since then has trained many mages in thunder magic" (I ommit the stuff they would have also known if they rolled higher)

    What this does is creates this immersion that the players character only knows this and they might think that is all there is to know, they have 0 idea if they failed or succeeded but it feels like a success and prevents other players from jumping on "what do i know what do i know" (you still might get it but not as much)

    2: you could also require that a player be proficient in the skill to even make the check if its something out of the ordinary that isn't common knowledge in your world (or have background story related to it)

    You can even combine the 2 and make it so its rolled in secret / they have to have proficiency or background relation depending on the skill.

    Now i wouldn't do this for EVERY Skill, id still make them roll their own Athletics / acrobatics for things.

    You could even during scenes that require the players to make decisions, set a TURN ORDER and require them to one at a time describe what they do for their turn. (this helps control a situation as a DM but also can put on the pressure during time sensitive situations)

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Well outside detectable range depends how much noise they are making. How might we determine how quiet they are? Maybe some kind of stealth check? If they are moving about then there is always a chance they hit a squeeky floorboard or brush against some bare stone with the hilt of a weapon. This doesn't mean they are heard - just that they might be.
    If the DM needs to determine a non-stealthy groups chance of detection, they can set it as an automatic failure, automatic success, or set a perception DC. Standard rules.

    Either way, my point remains the same. One failed check for one group will often affect the entire party as if the whole party failed it. Be that one group never made a check or that it passed it is irrelevant. When an alarm is raised and guards start looking round, your quiet group who silently sat on their hands and never made a check can politely try and explain to the guards searching for the source of thenoices that they were not the intruders the guards were looking for, because this group is the really quiet set of intruders whereas they must have heard the loud ones. It might not work that well though.
    Yes, but if your two scouts are the ones with good stealth bonuses, and the 5 guys behind are ready to rush up 60ft around the corner and slaughter the orc guards the moment the scouts start the ambush with surprise, or the scouts fall 60ft back after launching their attacks with Surprise, that's often a fine tactic.

    Separate parties doesn't necessarily mean stealthy guys get to play while other sit on their tush twiddling thumbs,

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Zertryx View Post
    Depending on the situation you can combat this in several ways. The biggest issue with "Skill dog piling" i see is when it comes to Knowledge checks. to combat this you could do 1 of 2 things that are very simple.

    1: Roll for the player in secret, this helps prevent meta gaming (when players see what the ally just rolled) and it also helps create better immersion.

    Example: Player 1 "What do i know about this clan"
    Me as DM: Rolls in secret their appropriate knowledge (say they roll a 2+ thier skill and its like a 10 but Dc mighta been higher to know more)
    Me as DM: "You know from old rumors that the clan use to worship a great god of thunder and since then has trained many mages in thunder magic" (I ommit the stuff they would have also known if they rolled higher)

    What this does is creates this immersion that the players character only knows this and they might think that is all there is to know, they have 0 idea if they failed or succeeded but it feels like a success and prevents other players from jumping on "what do i know what do i know" (you still might get it but not as much)

    2: you could also require that a player be proficient in the skill to even make the check if its something out of the ordinary that isn't common knowledge in your world (or have background story related to it)

    You can even combine the 2 and make it so its rolled in secret / they have to have proficiency or background relation depending on the skill.

    Now i wouldn't do this for EVERY Skill, id still make them roll their own Athletics / acrobatics for things.

    You could even during scenes that require the players to make decisions, set a TURN ORDER and require them to one at a time describe what they do for their turn. (this helps control a situation as a DM but also can put on the pressure during time sensitive situations)
    I grew up with this method where sometimes the DM rolls in secret. Sometimes even for saving throws when PCs don't know some spell or effect is used. I've done it myself in my early years of DMing. I'm not a fan of it anymore, and I've had players object to it. It comes down to player agency. Players want the feel of control of their own character. If they fail they fail, but rolling their own die puts the fate in their hand. I certainly understand a DM not caring for Player A rolls low so he asks another player to roll or another player volunteers he wants to roll. I'm willing to make that trade now, so the DM steps in to say the other player doesn't get to roll. Depending on the situation a DM could allow another player to roll. This is playstyle territory.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Man_Over_Game's Avatar

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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    I always liked the idea of having group checks be:

    Highest bonus person rolls with Disadvantage (as they're helping those that are worse)
    Lowest bonus person rolls with Advantage (as they're being helped)

    If the result is determined with a single failure (a guard is trying to spot your Paladin, and so would spot the group), use the lower of the two rolls.
    If the result is determined with a single success (everyone is trying to remember the demon's true name that he ripped from their minds, but only one person needs to remember), use the higher of the two rolls.

    Now you only need two results for a group check.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Skills and the problem of multiple rolls

    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Only roll if there is a cost of failure.
    \

    That is something I not only do, but also take to heart, but that's also a bit of the problem. If I have a DC10 check, and all 5 players roll, even without bonuses it's almost guaranteed that one of them will roll a 10 (somewhere in the 97% chance of making it), and at those odds, even with significant consequences it just doesn't even seem worthwhile to roll.

    Now, even in your example, a problem becomes, no one would sit around 10 minutes while someone searched and then go "Ok, now that you got your 10 minutes of search time, it's my turn to search all alone for 10 minutes, and if I don't find anything in another 10 minutes Fred will search for 10".

    Now in general, I'm also hearing about group checks which make sense to a degree, and I use them in some scenarios (group stealth for instance), but they don't always make sense.

    I guess it's more a core problem I have with skill system in general. I do think that's one thing I'd change if I was in charge of whatever next generation of D&D replaces this one in the distant future.

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