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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    One of my players is attempting to romance a Bronze Dragon and I am unsure of how to proceed.

    My understanding is that Bronze Dragons mate for life, so choosing a human to mate with doesn't make much sense. She will be dead within a century, and leave him with no eggs to raise or anything.

    Welcome advice on how to run this!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Sounds like you have a solid reason for the dragon just not being interested.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Well... Bronze Dragon Sorcerers do exist....

    Most often, sorcerers with this origin trace their descent back to a mighty sorcerer of ancient times who made a bargain with a dragon or who might even have claimed a dragon parent.
    Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-06-02 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    One of my players is attempting to romance a Bronze Dragon and I am unsure of how to proceed.

    My understanding is that Bronze Dragons mate for life, so choosing a human to mate with doesn't make much sense. She will be dead within a century, and leave him with no eggs to raise or anything.

    Welcome advice on how to run this!
    Um, it doesn't have to be serious, no? Let them have some lovu lovu in humanoid form. Dragon can treat it like some short episode in his very long life and that's it. Since Bronze Dragon Sorcerers do exist that means that there had to be Bronze Dragon -> humanoid romance somewhere centuries/millenias ago.

    If it doesn't negatively affect campaign story - why not?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Sounds very clearly like something the dragon could just say "no" to, either completely perplexed but flattered or maybe indignant.
    What I'm Playing: D&D 5e
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    Modern in sense of design focus. I consider any system that puts more weight in the buttons that players mash over the rest of the system as modern.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    One of my players is attempting to romance a Bronze Dragon and I am unsure of how to proceed.

    My understanding is that Bronze Dragons mate for life, so choosing a human to mate with doesn't make much sense. She will be dead within a century, and leave him with no eggs to raise or anything.

    Welcome advice on how to run this!
    While the above advice of simply being "not interested" is fine, this is a world of magic, and half-dragons obviously exist. Flirting doesn't have to result in romance, romance doesn't have to result in dating or a union. Even if it does "for life" could easily be the shorter lived of the two. The player could also look for ways to extend their life if the romance has real value to them, or a way to become a dragon as a cool capstone/retirement quest for the character.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Has the PC done anything you think would interest the dragon given their personalities?

    Even the dragon "thinking about it" would be interesting.

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    Has the PC done anything you think would interest the dragon given their personalities?

    Even the dragon "thinking about it" would be interesting.
    To build off this: If the player is doing this as a "I roll to seduce the dragon" shenanigan, then just cut it off with a 'no' and move on (or some variation on 'flattered but not interested').

    But if they are putting in serious roleplay effort with commitment to story potential (character development, story hooks, seeding adventure paths, setting up for inciting incidents, etc) then yeah, delving into it can be really good for the game, just be sure to treat the dragon as a complete character. They'll need to have their own objectives and goals, opinions and personal stances on happenings in the world. They can become an interesting ally/patron to the party that just happens to have a greater interest in that one PC just a bit more than the others.

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    I am not part of your table but I think having interesting and original romance (or even crazy if you think that way about it) is better then yet another romance with random elf bard at random Inn.

    Sounds like it could be fun or at least something memorable :)

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    To build off this: If the player is doing this as a "I roll to seduce the dragon" shenanigan, then just cut it off with a 'no' and move on (or some variation on 'flattered but not interested').

    But if they are putting in serious roleplay effort with commitment to story potential (character development, story hooks, seeding adventure paths, setting up for inciting incidents, etc) then yeah, delving into it can be really good for the game, just be sure to treat the dragon as a complete character. They'll need to have their own objectives and goals, opinions and personal stances on happenings in the world. They can become an interesting ally/patron to the party that just happens to have a greater interest in that one PC just a bit more than the others.
    This is solid advice.

    Make the player work for it. No dragon is going to take the advances of some puny mortal seriously unless they prove it. Some things a bronze dragon, specifically, might be considering:

    1) Humanoids are notoriously aggressive in their quest for power and a dragon is a potent source of power; what's their motivation here?

    1a) Are they just after my hoard?

    2) Can they even breathe underwater?

    3) How do they feel about pirates? And sharks?

    4) How commited to the relationship can they even be? They only live a hundred or so years, but that's just for starts. Are humans even capable of long-term relationships on the same scale and terms as a dragon?

    5) What's their profession? Are they willing to sacrifice it for the relationship, if necessary?

    6) So squishy. And smol. Kinda cute in a puppy-dog way. Not exactly "serious" relationship material, though. No wings, no scales, can't even breathe lightning...at least her tiefling friend has horns. Physical characteristics count; it's biology.

    If the player can overcome some of these hurdles, then I say give them a shot, but don't make it easy. Hell throw in a lady-dragon rival getting all up in the players grill like "Wotchoo got that I ain't, hmm? Sista, you jus' some soft-skinned little rake. My man needs scales, honey and that you ain't got." And then there'll be man-dragons sister (who's a popular singer in one of the local taverns) being a good friend to the player, encouraging her along like "Gurl, you done what no human done before; you got Rickys head all a-twirl. Don't pay no mind to Shaniqua, she just jealous. Here, you can borrow my pearls for your date tomorrow. But don'tchoo hurt him, y'hear? Or you won't know what hit you; I'll kill you dead, hmm?" and the player will be like "heard that" and thinking "damn, I knew I shouldn't have got involved with dragons"...

    Sorry, I got a bit carried away there. I just got an image stuck in my head of his sister being this diva singing "I'm every woman" stuck in my head and rolled with it.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Well, just remember that the bronze dragon never has to have that awkward after talk--it has a repulsion breath weapon for a reason!

    However, since bronze dragons are the seagoing sorts, perhaps this song will help:
    Brandy (You're a Fine Girl)
    Looking Glass
    There's a port on a western bay
    And it serves a hundred ships a day
    Lonely sailors pass the time away
    And talk about their homes
    And there's a girl in this harbor town
    And she works layin' whiskey down
    They say, Brandy, fetch another round
    She serves them whiskey and wine
    The sailors say, "Brandy, you're a fine girl" (you're a fine girl)
    "What a good wife you would be" (such a fine girl)
    "Yeah, your eyes could steal a sailor from the sea"
    Brandy wears a braided chain
    Made of finest silver from the North of Spain
    A locket that bears the name
    Of the man that Brandy loved
    He came on a summer's day
    Bringin' gifts from far away
    But he made it clear he couldn't stay
    No harbor was his home
    The sailors say, "Brandy, you're a fine girl" (you're a fine girl)
    "What a good wife you would be" (such a fine girl)
    "But my life, my lover, my lady is the sea"
    Yeah, Brandy used to watch his eyes
    When he told his sailor stories
    She could feel the ocean fall and rise
    She saw its ragin' glory
    But he had always told the truth, Lord, he was an honest man
    And Brandy does her best to understand
    At night when the bars close down
    Brandy walks through a silent town
    And loves a man who's not around
    She still can hear him say
    She hears him say, "Brandy, you're a fine girl" (you're a fine girl)
    "What a good wife you would be" (such a fine girl)
    "But my life, my lover, my lady is the sea"
    It is, yes it is
    He said, "Brandy, you're a fine girl" (you're a fine girl)
    "What a good wife you would be" (such a fine girl)
    "But my life, my lover, my lady is the sea"

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    She will be dead within a century, and leave him with no eggs to raise or anything.
    Are you sure? It's well-established in D&D lore that dragons are capable of mating and producing offspring with anything with a corporeal form. Maybe your seductress, much to her surprise, does end up laying a clutch of half-dragon eggs. How? Dragon.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    What age category is the bronze, and are dragons run color coded for your convenience as per 3.5e Draconomicon etc or just something else plucked out of the DM’s imagination rainbow?
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Let me be a bit more clear. The Bronze Dragon is around 50, categorized by Young in the 5e ruleset, and I am interested in pursuing this line of story insofar as the lore will allow, realistically.

    There are no shenanigans involved.

    The Bronze Dragon has just finished exploring the world after separating from his parents and has entreated the help of the PCs to clear out a canal of evil creatures so that he can start up his lair there. From there, further quests will be to venture out as emissaries to potential allies and persuade them to come live in the canal (sea elves and tritons and such), to help him build his hoard, and I had later intended on a quest where they could help him find a mate as well. But that could be subject to change.


    Thank you everyone for you input so far! It is appreciated!
    Last edited by Rakoa; 2020-06-03 at 05:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The Half-Hamster template gives me advantageous size and ability score bonuses, and combos well with my inherited Elderberry Radiance (Ex). Which is more than I can say for you, you class-dipping CL-losing Evoker!
    I was eating THOSE BEANS!!

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Let me be a bit more clear. The Bronze Dragon is around 50, categorized by Young in the 5e ruleset, and I am interested in pursuing this line of story insofar as the lore will allow, realistically.

    There are no shenanigans involved.
    Um... Young is still too young. That's pedophilia.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    There are a few people saying that the bronze dragon wouldn’t go fit it because X.

    That might make a lot of sense. But the thing about love is that doesn’t make sense. That’s the whole point.

    Without people falling in love, causing them to make bad decisions, we wouldn’t have many stories at all.

    Arwen fell for Aragorn. She didn’t say: well that would be stupid because he’s going to die and then what am I going to do?

    Elrond could see the obvious problem. But Arwen was in love. They don’t call them “fools” for nothing. And no one is immune.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    Let me be a bit more clear. The Bronze Dragon is around 50, categorized by Young in the 5e ruleset, and I am interested in pursuing this line of story insofar as the lore will allow, realistically.

    There are no shenanigans involved.

    The Bronze Dragon has just finished exploring the world after separating from his parents and has entreated the help of the PCs to clear out a canal of evil creatures so that he can start up his lair there. From there, further quests will be to venture out as emissaries to potential allies and persuade them to come live in the canal (sea elves and tritons and such), to help him build his hoard, and I had later intended on a quest where they could help him find a mate as well. But that could be subject to change.


    Thank you everyone for you input so far! It is appreciated!
    You have something of a good idea so far. To the romancing part, though the Dragon is young I am assuming you are meaning to translate that to be roughly late teens or early twenties by human standards. I would suggest have the dragon see the pc as a potential love fling and nothing more. Just because the Monster Manual says they mate for life doesn't translate that they won't date around. After all, further reading of their entry specifies they are quite sociable creatures going out of their way to be social with the lesser creatures. Role play wise I would have the dragon journey with the party as more of an important npc who makes and arranges the connections to accomplish what your wanting to do while keeping the fact they are a dragon a secret. Once they got what they want, make it the big reveal in some climatic way whether in an action movie sense or comedic. There are many ways to approach that.

    In the aftermath, the dragon could serve as a potential ally of some sort. If your players are only interested in loot, have the dragon become a merchant essentially who is willing to part with minor items of its horde in exchange for information or other favors that helps it out in the bigger picture.

    In either case, I would keep the romance as light as possible. One can easily get into the gutter with this situation. In short, think romance comedy.

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgerBeast View Post
    There are a few people saying that the bronze dragon wouldn’t go fit it because X.

    That might make a lot of sense. But the thing about love is that doesn’t make sense. That’s the whole point.

    Without people falling in love, causing them to make bad decisions, we wouldn’t have many stories at all.

    Arwen fell for Aragorn. She didn’t say: well that would be stupid because he’s going to die and then what am I going to do?

    Elrond could see the obvious problem. But Arwen was in love. They don’t call them “fools” for nothing. And no one is immune.

    But when it's romantic love with a child I think we can be happy that most people seem to be immune.

    Since I presume most people don't want pedophilia in their games, I'd suggest either changing the age of the dragon, or abandoning the romance angle.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    But when it's romantic love with a child I think we can be happy that most people seem to be immune.

    Since I presume most people don't want pedophilia in their games, I'd suggest either changing the age of the dragon, or abandoning the romance angle.
    You're gonna have to ante up a little more here to argue that a 50 year old dragon in the "young" category amounts to pedophilla. Since that's the middle of the "young" age category, you're more likely looking at a dragon who's (in dragon terms) more around a 16-year-old. And also we're talking about a dragon. If it's in-lore appropriate to present it as a child, then it is one, but 5E very much does not detail age categories and physical or mental maturity like 3.5 did.

    For comparison, in 3.5, this dragon would be at the very last year of "juvenile", comparatively a human of age 18 or 19. The immediate next category of "Young Adult" details that this is the age category where they are ready to mate. Compared to humans whose reproductive systems are fully functional by their mid-teens.

    While I'm expecting the response to be something of "you're defending pedophilla", my argument remains I think you're stretching on the basis of nothing more than the title of the age category that romancing a 50-year-old dragon amounts to pedophilla.
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    But when it's romantic love with a child I think we can be happy that most people seem to be immune.

    Since I presume most people don't want pedophilia in their games, I'd suggest either changing the age of the dragon, or abandoning the romance angle.
    You're attempting to apply human concepts of development to a mythological creature. Stop that. Maybe a young dragon in your world is the equivalent of a human child, but that's probably not the case in the OP's world. In the OP's world a "young" dragon sounds to be the equivalent of a college-age human, seeing as it has moved out of its parents' place and is looking to find its own starting bachelor pad.

    To the OP: "mate" doesn't have to be a purely biological or romantic concept for a dragon. It could be a social concept, with certain rules regarding what "counts" and what doesn't. Maybe non-dragons don't count. Maybe anything with a lifespan shorter than 500 years doesn't count. Maybe young dragons are expected to engage in romances with numerous partners (including non-dragons), sowing their wild oats before settling down with a proper mate and hoard. Or maybe the dragon doesn't care how much or little sense it makes to devote their entire life to someone who won't persist for more than a tenth of it (humans fall in love with others suffering from terminal diseases, why can't there be dragon equivalents?). Or maybe bronze dragons don't mate for life: that could be a rumor started by humans because they're too short-lived to see otherwise. They're your dragons in your world. The only lore is the lore that you decide to present to your players.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Yeah please cut the pedophile talk. Dragon is equivalent to an adult human
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Perhaps if the romance seems serious, the bronze dragon will begin looking into ways to extend their partner’s lifespan. ”Hm, perhaps if we could turn them into an elf they would at least live through most of my adulthood. Though that would make wyrmhood so very lonely... Is there a spell to extend life...?

    “Dear! I’ve been investigating a ritual, but it needs [Macguffin], and that is only able to be found at [side quest location]! If this works, we could spend our whole lives together! Not just yours, but mine as well!”
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Esprit15 View Post
    Perhaps if the romance seems serious, the bronze dragon will begin looking into ways to extend their partner’s lifespan. ”Hm, perhaps if we could turn them into an elf they would at least live through most of my adulthood. Though that would make wyrmhood so very lonely... Is there a spell to extend life...?

    “Dear! I’ve been investigating a ritual, but it needs [Macguffin], and that is only able to be found at [side quest location]! If this works, we could spend our whole lives together! Not just yours, but mine as well!”
    This could easily lead to an awesomely tragic BBEG scenario...

    "We can spend our whole lives together...all you need to do is [insert something heinous]"
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    I agree that 50 year old dragon is equivalent to a [young] adult human. You're talking about a teenager on the cusp of maturity here. And I would say that such a dragon (ESPECIALLY a bronze or silver) would be very likely to end up in a romantic entanglement with a humanoid, heedlessly (even recklessly) blind to the shorter lifespan of the humanoid.

    Drawing on older editions lore as well as what is mentioned in the 5e Monster Manual, Bronze dragons love 3 things: Fighting (for a just cause); Seafood (by dragon standards, so things like large sharks or giant squids), and Pearls (considered a special delicacy).

    Keep in mind that they are Lawful Good, and dragon alignment (by standard D&D mores) is usually inherent and doesn't change much. Most dragons start their education in the egg, which is why they are so dangerous even shortly after hatching (Source: 2e Council of Wyrms). But Lawful Good doesn't mean "stick in the mud", or "no hanky panky before marriage", or anything people associate with either bad paladin stereotypes or prudes.

    A Bronze Dragon paramour is likely to be very enthusiastic about some kind of combat, and seeks thrills and zest in their life. Sharing the dragon's passion for accomplishing great deeds (that also involve a lot of action) is the best way to said dragon's heart. Gifts should be in the nature of food (especially pearls). If you can find a foe that is both Evil AND Aquatic, more's the better, because one of Bronze dragons' favorite foes to fight are evil sea creatures. They hate sahuagin, for example.

    Finding love along the way to glorious battle could be easy for a bronze dragon, especially a younger one. They're likely to get swept up in the romance of what's going on. They may mourn their humanoid lover once they die, but they'll get over it.
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Let's Metagame this for a second:

    Would that be cool? ...Depends.
    Do you want to sidetrack your party for hours across the whole campaign because the horny Bard wanted to RP horny stupid?

    No?
    Well, an offended Dragon could be polite or have him (literally) for breakfast in response to his suggestion.
    Rolling up a new character that's not a horny Bard could be a learning experience if that's just more of the usual.

    Yes?
    Make him work for it outside of the campaign, don't bother the other players with it outside of the "best of" parts. Writing up letters and **** is going to be homework (you can read for your own amusement).


    Ignore alignment. Sentient creatures are individuals. I know a cat or 3 that behaves more like a dog than a dog or 3 that'd classify as cats if Alignment had a thing to say in the matter. Aside from being a menace on small animal life in the general area, because that's an actual genetic cat trait, character and by extension alignment is up the the individual even in animals.
    Wasn't the Chaotic Evil King of Slaads riding around on a Bronze Dragon or something? Might have been a Copper, definitely metallic (read race alignment = good) though. Exceptions exist in reality and in game alike for a reason. Life's a spectrum of greys, black and white barely exists.

    Btw not judging something like a Dragon by human standards is probably a good idea. A newborn Dragon is outpacing a human toddler by a lightyear and then some in terms of mental growth on day 1.
    50 years worth of experiences as a sentient creature might not be enough to reach adulthood by draconic standards, but the standard here is to be a match in character growth for a humanoid somehow, that's probably easy enough when you plopped into the world 50 years ago and could already speak.
    Looking at draconic physical development and how many multiples an ancient is compared to a hatchling, their system appears to be a bit more granular than applicable humanoid standards.

    Ofc if someone were to insist on a simple analog progression to humanity and absolutely had to use a similar distribution for stages of maturity, dunno - maybe to give the usual medieval peasant some scale he can grasp, sure, dragons are toddlers for 50 years by that classification. Look how cute he chomps on that whole cow, Awwww.
    Last edited by Tes; 2020-06-04 at 07:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    They hate sahuagin, for example.
    Except with tartar sauce. Oh, and a squeeze of lemon, too, to cut the bitterness.
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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    One of my players is attempting to romance a Bronze Dragon and I am unsure of how to proceed.

    My understanding is that Bronze Dragons mate for life, so choosing a human to mate with doesn't make much sense. She will be dead within a century, and leave him with no eggs to raise or anything.

    Welcome advice on how to run this!
    The first and foremost advice I would give is to not treat a creature's love life as having to fit proscribed rules of which they must conform. Perhaps this Bronze Dragon is one that doesn't want to mate for life. Perhaps they don't want children. And so on.

    But beyond that, there are many ways to fit into those guidelines while still making this happen. Here are some ideas:
    1. Bronze Dragons do mate for life -- whatever that lifespan might be, and a 50-60 year (or, let's be honest, less. We're talking about an adventurer). A coupling with a PC race will leave them a widower at 110-120, right on cue for prime reproductive age for said dragon.
    2. One of the ways that Bronze Dragons qualify as mating for life (in their own minds) is that all their mistresses/misters are non-dragons (they 'don't count').
    3. Bronze Dragons are strong proponents of mixed race marriages (themselves being a halfbreed race, having descended from pairings of Copper Dragons and the now-extinct Tin Dragons ), and are more than happy to produce a line of half-dragons rather than a clutch of dragon eggs.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Incorporate it into the story somehow, as long as it makes the game interesting.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Are humans even capable of long-term relationships on the same scale and terms as a dragon?
    I see what you did there.

    Sorry, I got a bit carried away there. I just got an image stuck in my head of his sister being this diva singing "I'm every woman" stuck in my head and rolled with it.
    I like the idea of a romantic rival being another dragon; there is some fun game play right there!

    The cleric casts message to this PC: "realize you and dragon doing it. Lady dragon, his betrothed, is here. Ate Paladin's horse. Ate rogue. Am wrapped in her tail. Pls return dragon."
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Romancing a Bronze Dragon

    Since no one else has really said it explicitly, just do whatever you think the players want as long as that's okay with you.

    For me, I usually don't allow any serious romance role play in my games because it makes me uncomfortable as DM and I know some of my players feel the same way. When the one guy in my group that always tries to seduce women in-game does that, I will just have a quick yes/no for him. My group plays to pretend we're fighting monsters, not pretend we're lovers whispering to each other.

    If your table wants to all go down the road of a serious romance and you do to, then go for it.

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