Why pick an Eldritch Knight and A simple fix

[Whit]

Why pick an Eldritch Knight? Before I go over why its bad for the most part, let’s see how a simple fix wound have made it better.

Similar to Paladins, the Eldritch knight can Eldritch SMITE. Use a spell level slot and add 2d8 Force damage to the attack with level 1 and extra 1d8 per level above 1st max 5d8.

If I wanted to redo the EK. At level 3 weapon bond keep and add either the above eldritch smite or allow attack cantrip that add the weapon as part of the component to not limit melee attacks. Not worded good but basically allow green flame booming etc type cantrip to 1 attack but not reduce melee attacks. That way at higher level then get 3 attacks and can add green flame etc to one of those attacks.
The Cons. But don’t get me wrong theatrically it’s beautiful.
1. Strength con/dex main.
If you’re going to spell attack or cast save spells, you need that Int modifier. Oh oh. If you’re only picking non attack/ save spell then it’s not that important, but you just limited a lot of spells for your self.
2. Level 3 your can summon your weapon(bonus action) and can’t be disarmed.
Nice but how many times does an enemy try to disarm you instead of just attacking you?
3. Level 7 cast a cantrip and attack once with your weapon instead of attacking 2 times with your weapon? Is there a cantrip that’s better than 2 attacks? Green flame and booming. We can look at that but is there any other cantrip? From any other class just in case you get mage initiate feat? I don’t think so.
Now let’s look at green flame lvls 7-10 1 attack with an extra 1d8 fire to your target and 1d8+ spell modifier. Oops remember not that high so maybe +0/+2 average to a second opponent within 5 ft.
Less chance to roll a crit. Or to even to hit with one attack over 2 attacks.
If I have 18 strength and let’s say great sword. ( let’s not add feats to make it simple) 2d6+4/2d6+4 (20) or 2d6+4+1d8(fire) (14) plus 1d8+0-2 (4-6) to a second enemy within 5 ft.(18-20) total; so damage is close to same just a lesser chance to hit rolling 1 attack instead of 2 attacks. But looks amazing.
At level 11-16 you add An extra 1d8. For 1 attack. But you now give up 3 attacks a turn.
3 attacks 2d6+4x3 (30) or 1 attack with green flame 2d6+4+2d8 (18) plus (8)+0-2 in second opponent total of 26-28. Is this one attack better than 3 attack rolls. Not at all. Not to mention possible fire resistance or immunity that can reduce the damage.

Booming blade Is pretty much sane issue but on top of it, if the target doesn’t move then there no damage.

4. Level 10. Eldritch strike. Give creature disadvantage against a save spell You cast.
Let’s look at the save spells. At level 10-12 it’s up to lvl 2 spells and 13-18 level 3 spells
It’s so bad that I don’t even need to list it. Give up a round of attacks to cast a save spell with disadvantage. Sounds great but what am I going to do fireball or lightning bolt him in front of me. Maybe charm person but since we are fighting he has advantage to counter disadvantage.

Level 15 if I action surge which of course I will do I can teleport 30’ before or after I action surge. It’s pretty nice. I can hit 6 times and teleport away or hit 3 then teleport to another creature and hit 3 times.

Level 18. At least in this level you get lvl 4 spells.

[Specter]

Because not every subclass is about damage, basically.

If we want to go deeper, then let's address the specifics of what you said:
- An Eldritch Knight who could indeed smite would have fewer slots with which to smite, which would run out pretty quickly, and make them pretty much useless in a long day (other fighter subclasses recharge their perks on a short rest);
- BB/GFB keep up with damage just fine, and tend to have a side effect with them. If you want to keep an enemy still or have enemies close to each other, those cantrips would be better than just attacking.
- You have defensive capabilities that other subclasses just don't in Shield and Absorb Elements, and Absorb Elements will even let you deal some damage afterwards;
- Yeah, Eldritch Strike is 'so bad' that you can end an encounter with it just by casting Hold Person. Or Blindness. Or any other spell you might have from multiclassing. And it's literally a free resource, meaning you can use it indefinitely.

Bottom line, the fact a subclass does slightly less damage than others while having many more resources is something anyone who can strategize can appreciate.

[Chaos Jackal]

I always thought that you pick an EK because of their great defensive capabilities, the limited but useful utilities they get compared to other fighters, and the fact that you combine spellcasting with the excellent fighter chassis, opening up synergies and combos normally available either through multiclassing or not at all. Sure, it might not have the damage of a Battle Master, but not everything is about damage, and you don't play EK primarily for damage. Although with proper cantrip usage and stuff like Shadow Blade, an EK's damage is nothing to scoff at either.

The subclass works whether you pump or dump Int. You just alter your spell selection. And its features are useful. A smite ability wouldn't work very well there, on the other hand, what with the limited slots and slow spellcasting progression.

Warding Bond isn't a game-breaking feature, for sure, but it still means you can never go weaponless. Disarm attempt in combat? Nope. Imprisonment? Still armed. Left your weapons at the doorstep before the hearing with the king or the meeting with the crime lord? Weapon is available. Attacked in your bedroom after a night of passion? You can actually fight with the metal kind of sword.

Combining a SCAG cantrip with a melee attack is both potent and aids your defense. Relying on a cantrip for damage means you're not as dependant on a two-hander and can use a shield most of the time while minimizing the hit to your damage. And there are other cantrips that don't necessarily deal (as much) damage, but that you'd very much like to use at times, and throwing a melee attack alongside is pretty good.

Eldritch Strike isn't good if you haven't pumped your Int, that's true, but with an OK score you'll have a decent DC, just the kind to benefit from disadvantage to a save. And you'll be surprised at the number of low-level spells with decent effects on failed saves.

Also, your math is wrong. 2d6+4 is 11, not 10. Similar deal with any other d8s and d6s you have there.

[GlenSmash!]

Why pick an Eldritch Knight?

Because extra attack with Shadow Blade is sweet. I can also throw it and summon it back with weapon bond. Hitting a foe with an AoO Booming Blade is sweet too. As is throwing up Shield as a reaction on top of the High AC fighters already get. With those few offensive spells and defensive spells covering combat I love to take utility spells to do more outside of combat than the base fighter.

[Whit]

The EK would have just about equal to the paladin for smites. So there is not much difference there. I guess your saying Paladin is useless after smites? Because that’s his damage potential along with smite spells.
All this does is give the EK an option to output more damage with theatrics. And to choose if it’s better to do that it use fir something else.

As for bb or gfb the damage potential is only close at 5-10. As for bb it will only works if the creature moves. And who says it’s going to move. It’s not like it knows not to move or not. So if you want to give up multiple attacks hoping it will move that’s fine which means it may do less than gfb. Each turn. it could end up moving getting bb then learning no to move. Thus keeping it in place.

Everyone knows anyways that gfb and bb are far better fir single attack classes. Which is why it’s inferior as is for EK.

Yes the EK makes a great tank with shield and AE. That’s pretty much all they do with the spells

As for multiclass. That would be getting into extras and how many levels would you take to get a good spell which usually start at 3>
As for blindness or hold person yes you can pick that one spell not an evoc or abj at lvl 8 but won’t get that eldritch strike bonus til lvl 10.
And don’t forget you have to hit first. So use gfb or bb and you get 1 chance. Or attack normal and get 2-3 attacks. Then yiu either action surge to cast or wait fir next round. Either way giving up more than 1 attack.
Not that hold person or blindness is not worth it. Your opponent gets disadvantage to his save vs your Spell DC of 8+ Proficiency +4 + intelligence mod. Hmm 0-2 average fir EK. Since strength dex and con will be the bg 2 stats. DC of 12-14 isn’t that bad on a 2d20 with their modifier of +0-4 If he dues to save they are dine before their next turn normal save.

[Specter]

The EK would have just about equal to the paladin for smites. So there is not much difference there. I guess your saying Paladin is useless after smites? Because that’s his damage potential along with smite spells.
All this does is give the EK an option to output more damage with theatrics. And to choose if it’s better to do that it use fir something else.

Not 'about equal'. Paladins get 2-level spells at level 5, EK gets them at level 7. Same for 9 and 13 and 13 and 18. And I'm not saying Paladin is useless after smites, because the Paladin class has a bunch of other features, but if you're talking about giving that one feature to a subclass, then yeah, the subclass would be pretty lame.

As for bb or gfb the damage potential is only close at 5-10. As for bb it will only works if the creature moves. And who says it’s going to move. It’s not like it knows not to move or not. So if you want to give up multiple attacks hoping it will move that’s fine which means it may do less than gfb. Each turn. it could end up moving getting bb then learning no to move. Thus keeping it in place.

Like I said before, damage isn't everything. But let's run the math:
- Green Flame Blade and bonus attack at level 11: (1d8+2d8+4)+(1d8+4)=26
- Random Fighter attacking three times: (1d8+4)+(1d8+4)+(1d8+4)=28.5

2.5 difference. And that's without counting the secondary benefit of the cantrip, which could deal ~13.5 dmg to an adjacent enemy.

Also you're not factoring the versatily aspect of other cantrips, like killing an enemy in melee and then casting Ray of Frost on a distant enemy. Or casting Sword Burst to attack literally every enemy you have within 5 feet (up to 8) and still use a weapon attack. Or whatever benefit of whatever cantrip you have in a given situation.

As for Booming Blade, you mean the creature might not want to move if you attack it with Booming Blade, and would then have to focus on you and not your more fragile companions? Even better.

Everyone knows anyways that gfb and bb are far better fir single attack classes. Which is why it’s inferior as is for EK.

Everyone doesn't know, I guess. Weapon cantrip + regular attack can easily keep up with a bunch of attacks, as shown above, and that's if you don't take War Caster to make your opportunity attacks the deadliest in the game.

Yes the EK makes a great tank with shield and AE. That’s pretty much all they do with the spells

You mean they can't give a STR-fighter range with spells? Or AoE damage that other fighters could never have? Or give flight to archers? Or... what?

As for multiclass. That would be getting into extras and how many levels would you take to get a good spell which usually start at 3>
As for blindness or hold person yes you can pick that one spell not an evoc or abj at lvl 8 but won’t get that eldritch strike bonus til lvl 10.
And don’t forget you have to hit first. So use gfb or bb and you get 1 chance. Or attack normal and get 2-3 attacks. Then yiu either action surge to cast or wait fir next round. Either way giving up more than 1 attack.
Not that hold person or blindness is not worth it. Your opponent gets disadvantage to his save vs your Spell DC of 8+ Proficiency +4 + intelligence mod. Hmm 0-2 average fir EK. Since strength dex and con will be the bg 2 stats. DC of 12-14 isn’t that bad on a 2d20 with their modifier of +0-4 If he dues to save they are dine before their next turn normal save.

No and no.
1) You don't need to cast the spell in the same turn. You can hit with any of your 2 attacks in the first turn (which should hit) and then cast the spell in the second.
2) A fighter that is pumping STR and CON has no combat reason to pump DEX, and vice-versa, so there's plenty of room to have an intelligence of at least 12. Now if you assume your save DC is 12 (pretty low), and your enemy has a save of +4 (monster with a good stat which you shouldn't be targeting anyway). Under regular circumstances, it has 35% chance of failing the save. Under disadvantage, that number goes to 57,75%, or basically a 20% increase in DC. Now if you're targeting a weak save (let's say +1), under disadvantage the monster would have 69,75% chance of failing. A sorcerer would be spending 3 sorcery points for that disadvantage, and you spend... nothing. If you can't appreciate that...

[Skylivedk]

Also, your math is wrong. 2d6+4 is 11, not 10. Similar deal with any other d8s and d6s you have there.

Care to elaborate? The weighted average is 3.5 for a d6, nothing controversial in that.

About EK and Sorcerer: they combine surprisingly well. A quickened any AoE (fireball, hypnotic pattern, fear, shatter) following an action surge of tagging enemies can be quite devastating. EKs have a reputation of being excellent tanks and if you look at their potential buffs, AC and hp, it's easy to see why.

Combine that with a much stronger and more flexible AoO (because you picked warcaster if you went with shield) that can either be a cantrip punishing movement or a spell turning a bad day into a last one.

Divine Soul also opens up to a divine tanking tool: Spirit Guardians. It's a spell that helps lockdown an area in a way that's otherwise hard for martials the cavalier excepted due to the limits of reactions.

[Artemis Fowl]

Eldritch Knights are great. If you can't accept that, that's fine, but that doesn't change the fact that they can get OP

[Chaos Jackal]

Care to elaborate? The weighted average is 3.5 for a d6, nothing controversial in that.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What am I supposed to elaborate on? Yes, the average for a d6 is 3.5, just like you said. Likewise, the average for a d8 is 4.5.

In the OP, d6 average is calculated to 3, and d8 to 4, so all damage values are a few points off.

[Whit]

At lvl 11. If you use war magic with GFB You get 1 attack on main target 2d6+4 + 2d8 fire/
Then bonus attack same main target with the same weapon 2d6 +4. Let’s assume they roll 3’s to keep it simple on dice as 10 damage per hit with strength. 10 per hit with 6 fire. 26 damage
3 attacks on main would be 36 damage.

Now add a possible 2d8 ( fire damage) intel mod which could be +0-2 To another within 5ft. Let’s say 9 damage with a 4-5 roll with possible 0-2 intell For 10 damage. And you get 36 as well but only if there is another within 5 feet.
Otherwise it’s 26 to 36

Now if you switch to BB. You lose that 2d8 auto from gfb and hope that the person moves. Which can drop the damage even more so. Although though the purpose is to keep the person from moving. But it’s a maybe he moves maybe he doesn’t scenario.

Now you also take into account that rolling 3 attacks has a greater chance of getting more hits than rolling only 2 attacks.

Now let’s say you use eldritch strike. You have to hit the target. So once again attacking with 3 attacks gives you a better chance to hit over 2 attacks. Either way your initial damage is the same
Now you can choose to action surge and get 2 or 3 more attacks. Then cast that spell next turn or action surge and cast that spell the same turn. Or attack then next then cast the spell then action surge and attack.

Either way you will be giving up your attacks
For 1 turn.

So let’s say you cast hold or blind at disadvantage. Your pay off is great if you get it. But your low intel modifier is a hinderance.
8+ ability mod + intell.

Although maybe a range attack elf with higher intell dex and sharpshooter works better than bb and gfb. But what would war magic cantrip be then.

[clash]

I mean you are looking at the abilities as the meat and bones of the subclass and kinda dismissing the spellcasting. By comparison lets look at what battle master gets for abilities outside of just learning manuevers that get better as he levels up.

Level 3:
Ek gets weapon bond. BM gets proficiency in artisans tools. Both are only situationally useful.

Level 7:
EK gets war magic. BM gets know your enemy. War magic in my opinion is going to see a lot more in game use for when the cantrip is better than the second attack. How often are you going to get a full minute to study someone that you plan on fighting? And most of the information isn't actually useful.

Level 10:
EK gets Eldritch Strike. Really just brings his spells up to par if he wants creatures to fail saves. Wont really count this. BM gets... well his manuevers scale. Not really an ability at all just a progression so we arent going to count this either.

Level 15:
EK gets teleportation between action surge. BM gets to guarantee he always has a manuever. Both agains eem pretty situational. The telport might help in specifc cases and any battle where you need your manuevers your likely to have held onto a few dice going into it and wont actually see any benefit from this in those cases.

Level 18:
EK gets improved war magic. BM gets further progression. Again not counting BM's as an ability so even considering it is situational EK comes out ahead here.

I really fail to see how BM is any better than EK if you are just looking at abilities granted aside from progression. I think if you are looking to smite just go BM. They are always going to be better at it anyways by virtue of short rest recharge on manuevers. An EK could smite 8 times at level 20. A BM can already in theory smite (manuever with damage and effect) 12 times at level 3 and 18 times at level 20.

They each have good, unique space they fill right now. If you want added versatility go EK. If you want to be better at being a fighter go BM.

[Willie the Duck]

About the only thing I find wrong with the EK is that evocation isn't really the best spell school to be a 1/3rd caster in, particularly since it is competing with your regular attacks for damage. I honestly wouldn't find it out of line for the EK (and AT Rogue) to just be able to pick any spells from the wizard list.

That said, EKs are perfectly capable right up through all the levels where fighters are best. I guess certain builds like a battlemaster with accurate to guarantee their GWM attacks hitting, or elven Samurai with SS+Elven Accuracy+Fighting Spirit-induced advantage can really outperform them, but honestly they are one of the more consistent fighter archetypes.

[MoiMagnus]

IMO, the only problem of Eldritch Knight is that it has a low DC and a restriction on school of magic it can uses.
Both of them together make it quite frustrating when picking spells as you feel quite limited. But solving any of the two is enough.

The low DC is only a problem if you play with feats. Otherwise, as a fighter, you probably have enough ASI to buff your Int.

If the EK had "choose two schools" instead of "abjuration + evocation", that would probably be far enough of a buff. There are so many good utility spells in other schools, it would reinforce the EK as the fighter subclass "better out of combat than the regular fighter" and "really personalised to your personal playstyle"

[Specter]

At lvl 11. If you use war magic with GFB You get 1 attack on main target 2d6+4 + 2d8 fire/
Then bonus attack same main target with the same weapon 2d6 +4. Let’s assume they roll 3’s to keep it simple on dice as 10 damage per hit with strength. 10 per hit with 6 fire. 26 damage
3 attacks on main would be 36 damage.

Now add a possible 2d8 ( fire damage) intel mod which could be +0-2 To another within 5ft. Let’s say 9 damage with a 4-5 roll with possible 0-2 intell For 10 damage. And you get 36 as well but only if there is another within 5 feet.
Otherwise it’s 26 to 36

Your math is wrong. Every die is to be considered the average (3.5 for d6, 4.5 for d8)

Green-Flame Blade
(2d6+4) + (2d6+4) +(2d8)
(11)+(11)+(9)
31

Regular attacks
(2d6+4)+(2d6+4)+(2d6+4)
(11)+(11)+(11)
33

[Evaar]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=23

Hundreds of accurate damage. Great nova and sustained. High initiative and stealth. More utility than average martials. Harder to lock down (due to access to things like Misty Step etc). AC 25+ with Shield, and other good defensive tricks beyond that. And punishes enemies heavily for moving away from them.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Also, a bit of the MAD is negated coz fighters get more ASIs.

[MaxWilson]

Why pick an Eldritch Knight? Before I go over why its bad for the most part, let’s see how a simple fix wound have made it better.

Similar to Paladins, the Eldritch knight can Eldritch SMITE. Use a spell level slot and add 2d8 Force damage to the attack with level 1 and extra 1d8 per level above 1st max 5d8.

If I wanted to redo the EK. At level 3 weapon bond keep and add either the above eldritch smite or allow attack cantrip that add the weapon as part of the component to not limit melee attacks. Not worded good but basically allow green flame booming etc type cantrip to 1 attack but not reduce melee attacks. That way at higher level then get 3 attacks and can add green flame etc to one of those attacks.
The Cons. But don’t get me wrong theatrically it’s beautiful.
1. Strength con/dex main.
If you’re going to spell attack or cast save spells, you need that Int modifier. Oh oh. If you’re only picking non attack/ save spell then it’s not that important, but you just limited a lot of spells for your self.
2. Level 3 your can summon your weapon(bonus action) and can’t be disarmed.
Nice but how many times does an enemy try to disarm you instead of just attacking you?
3. Level 7 cast a cantrip and attack once with your weapon instead of attacking 2 times with your weapon? Is there a cantrip that’s better than 2 attacks? Green flame and booming. We can look at that but is there any other cantrip? From any other class just in case you get mage initiate feat? I don’t think so.
Now let’s look at green flame lvls 7-10 1 attack with an extra 1d8 fire to your target and 1d8+ spell modifier. Oops remember not that high so maybe +0/+2 average to a second opponent within 5 ft.
Less chance to roll a crit. Or to even to hit with one attack over 2 attacks.
If I have 18 strength and let’s say great sword. ( let’s not add feats to make it simple) 2d6+4/2d6+4 (20) or 2d6+4+1d8(fire) (14) plus 1d8+0-2 (4-6) to a second enemy within 5 ft.(18-20) total; so damage is close to same just a lesser chance to hit rolling 1 attack instead of 2 attacks. But looks amazing.
At level 11-16 you add An extra 1d8. For 1 attack. But you now give up 3 attacks a turn.
3 attacks 2d6+4x3 (30) or 1 attack with green flame 2d6+4+2d8 (18) plus (8)+0-2 in second opponent total of 26-28. Is this one attack better than 3 attack rolls. Not at all. Not to mention possible fire resistance or immunity that can reduce the damage.

Booming blade Is pretty much sane issue but on top of it, if the target doesn’t move then there no damage.

4. Level 10. Eldritch strike. Give creature disadvantage against a save spell You cast.
Let’s look at the save spells. At level 10-12 it’s up to lvl 2 spells and 13-18 level 3 spells
It’s so bad that I don’t even need to list it. Give up a round of attacks to cast a save spell with disadvantage. Sounds great but what am I going to do fireball or lightning bolt him in front of me. Maybe charm person but since we are fighting he has advantage to counter disadvantage.

Level 15 if I action surge which of course I will do I can teleport 30’ before or after I action surge. It’s pretty nice. I can hit 6 times and teleport away or hit 3 then teleport to another creature and hit 3 times.

Level 18. At least in this level you get lvl 4 spells.

Biggest two reasons to pick an Eldritch Knight:

(1) You want to be hard to kill, and

(2) You want to be able to kill monsters that are resistant or immune to normal weapons, and you're not playing in a game where the DM guarantees to give you magic weapons.

The ability to double your damage against demons by casting your own Magic Weapons spell is terrific, and mobility/survival spells like Expeditious Retreat/Absorb Elements/Shield are great if you're playing in sandboxy games where the responsibility isn't on the DM to keep PCs alive.

Other stuff like weapon bond and teleportation is also nice, but #1 and #2 are the key things for me. I could multiclass out of EK after level 11 and not regret missing out on the teleportation, as long as I got something cool in exchange, but I don't think I could multiclass out after level 6, because I'd miss out on Magic Weapon (and Extra Attack 2).

Note: Paladins also have access to Magic Weapon, and Paladin of Devotion's Sacred Weapon is automatically magic, and the reasons for picking EK over Paladin are different from the reasons for picking EK over Battlemaster. EK vs. Paladin is primarily about whether you want Extra Attack 2/3 and Archery style and Shield and Sharpshooter more than Aura of Protection and Find (Greater) Steed and Aura of Vitality and sorcerer/warlock multiclassing.

[Misterwhisper]

Eldritch Knight is a great subclass.

Amazing defensive options.
Emergency elemental damage early if needed.
Being on the fighter subclass, you don’t even really need to boost int to be effective. They have plenty of buff options to not even care about their dc.

Weapon bond is also great for always having a weapon at the ready.

[D.U.P.A.]

Also Eldritch knight is basically the only viable choice if you want to be on Str+Int combo. Everyone wants to be strong and smart :)

[AdAstra]

Putting smites on a single-classed EK is a terrible idea considering how many attacks fighters can get. Paladins can already put out very high burst DPS with only two attacks, and Fighters can get 4, 8 with Action Surge. Combine with GWM and you're going to be pasting basically anything. And from a player psychology perspective, it's a bad idea to make a class able to burn half of its long rest resources in a single turn (lvl 20 EK gets 11 spell slots and 2 action surges. Even with misses you'll probably still be able to spend 5 slots on smite). Smite is a strong enough ability that dipping two levels in Paladin solely for it is considered a worthwhile choice for some builds.

Also, Eldritch Knights have some of the best defenses in the game and utility that other subclasses can't match just from Find Familiar as your first out-of-school spell. And later on in the level progression they get significantly more than other subclasses.

[Paksos]

I play an EK because it fits my character’s backstory as a dropout from an arcane apprenticeship.

[Zuras]

If you play an Eldritch Knight, or an Arcane Trickster for that matter, for optimizing reasons, there are two big things you get:

1. Spell choices that can cover your weaknesses or give you extra stuff fighters don't normally get. Ranged attack cantrips for STR fighters, a familiar, Absorb Element to cover your mediocre or bad Dex Saves, and AoEs are all good reasons to go EK.

2. Spell choices that are much more effective than their level suggests, especially self-only spells. Shield goes farther on you than a wizard, as does Blur. Enlarge is still great for you at 7th level even if it isn’t a great use of a full caster’s concentration, etc.

EKs are great. Not as much nova as a Battlemaster, and easier to screw up with bad chioices for spells, but very versatile.