A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecan View Post
    I think her statement that she is Chaotic Good-ish will do fine for now. We don't get too many Haley is neutral/Haley is evil debates.
    Who said anything about evil? I meant that her whole guilt trip in 517 is completely out of character for someone Neutral. As somebody who argued (based on OtOoPCs in particular) vehemently on the side of Haley is Neutral, 517 convinced me without a doubt that I had been wrong; the "Chaotic Good-ish" was something that I actually took as support of my side of the argument. 517 should be referenced in conjunction with Chaotic Good-ish to settle the argument as best it can be settled (until someone in the comic, or the Giant, states it outright).
    Last edited by Kimpire; 2008-01-01 at 01:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    I don't see how 517 is any more conclusive than Haley's selfless desire to save the dirt farmers in comic 212.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecan View Post
    I don't see how 517 is any more conclusive than Haley's selfless desire to save the dirt farmers in comic 212.
    The last time I saw that Haley alignment debate, I believe the argument was that she was CN in OOPC and when the comic started, and changed to CG gradually during the first 200 comics, in part because of Elan. That's pretty much fitting, and it also explains why she calls herself "-ish".
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Nale has a Charisma of at least 15 to use Sending scrolls.
    Evidence for Thog's high strength can be seen when he carries Hilgya while flying.
    Leeky apparently has the Leadership feat, as he offers Pompey employment as a cohort.
    Banjo links to the wrong comic; it should be 80.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    Nale has a Charisma of at least 15 to use Sending scrolls.
    Good catch! Updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    Evidence for Thog's high strength can be seen when he carries Hilgya while flying.
    Another good catch. Can someone familiar with the encumberance/flying rules nail down a minimum score from this? If not, I can try to figure it out when I have some time. We might be able to do the same for Zz'dtri, since we see him carrying Yikyik.

    Edit: Okay, Thog has to be able to carry Hilgya, her armor, and her shield while flying. The base weight for a female dwarf is 100 lbs, the lightest metal armor weighs 25 lbs, and a small steel shield weighs 6 lbs. This means the absolute minimum Hilgya and her equipment can weigh is 131 lbs. Thog's greataxe weighs 12 lbs, and his armor is probably about 30 lbs. So Hilgya plus all their equipment is 173 lbs minimum. For 173 lbs to be a heavy load, Thog needs a STR score of 14. Still not overly helpful in figuring out his actual strength, but at least we have a solid minimum now.

    As for Zz'dtri, I don't think this will be helpful...I don't know if there is a listed weight for kobolds, but they are probably comparable to halfings; the base weight for a male is probably around 30 lbs. Say 10 lbs. for armor (half weight since kobolds are small) and 1 lb for his small short sword. This gives us roughly 40-50 lbs, and Zz'dtri could fly with 50 lbs. if he had a strength of 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    Leeky apparently has the Leadership feat, as he offers Pompey employment as a cohort.
    Also added.

    Thanks for the input!
    Last edited by Chrismith; 2008-01-01 at 03:09 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Nale has a Charisma of at least 15 to use Sending scrolls
    this could also very well have been done with use magic device.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    this could also very well have been done with use magic device.
    Emulating a 15 CHA is a DC 30 UMD check. UMD is only a class skill for Rogues, and Nale only has a few levels in that class. He was able to repeatedly cast from the scrolls when contacting Roy, and he would have needed plenty of skill ranks to do that reliably.

    The more likely assumption is that he has 15 Cha. The majority of his levels are in sorcerer, after all.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    Emulating a 15 CHA is a DC 30 UMD check. UMD is only a class skill for Rogues, and Nale only has a few levels in that class. He was able to repeatedly cast from the scrolls when contacting Roy, and he would have needed plenty of skill ranks to do that reliably.

    The more likely assumption is that he has 15 Cha. The majority of his levels are in sorcerer, after all.
    Though I agree that a CHA 15 is most likely, could still have maximum ranks in UMD if he doesn't mind paying the cross class penalty. Or if his last level in Rogue & he just dumped all his skill points into it.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Star View Post
    Though I agree that a CHA 15 is most likely, could still have maximum ranks in UMD if he doesn't mind paying the cross class penalty. Or if his last level in Rogue & he just dumped all his skill points into it.
    I still find that extremely unlikely. Nale cast Sending seven times. That means he made seven DC 30 checks in a row. You can't take ten with UMD, and for Nale to have even a 50% chance of passing the check, he'd need 20 ranks in UMD, which is more than he could have even if he were a single-class rogue. Supposing that he paid for max ranks, either cross-class or by saving up skill points, he would have ~15 ranks, which would let him pass the check 25% of the time. Even if we allow that he failed a few times off-screen, I don't think UMD is the answer.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Due to Tsukiko using a spell from every school except for Abjuration (assuming she wouldn't have barred Necromancy), we can put her down as a Generalist Wizard rather then a specialist.
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  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    I've added Fireball, Invisibility and Electric Orb to Tsukiko's spell list.

    Some comments:

    1) What is the fire spell in panel six? It looks different than the fireball, and it's not Scorching Ray, because that's a ranged touch attack that doesn't allow a reflex save. Is it just Burning Hands?

    2) Interestingly, Tsukiko appears to have the 3.0 Electric Orb spell from Tome and Blood. The updated 3.5 version from Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium is called Orb of Electricity, and is a conjuration spell, not evocation.

    3) Today's comic also offers further proof that Tsukiko is a wizard, not a sorcerer, since she was able to look up and memorize a new spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    Due to Tsukiko using a spell from every school except for Abjuration (assuming she wouldn't have barred Necromancy), we can put her down as a Generalist Wizard rather then a specialist.
    We haven't seen her cast any (arcane) Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy spells. We can't rule out her barring necromancy, because many of those spells that deal with undead are on her Cleric class list. In fact, when we saw her about to animate dead, her "spell glow" was the lighter color, indicating a divine spell, not an arcane one.
    Last edited by Chrismith; 2008-01-03 at 02:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Aganazzar’s Scorcher is the only spell on page 8 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ererWizard.pdf that seems to be like that spell (the blast didn't look big enough to be that spell in the comic, though). That is a good point (I assumed she wouldn't give up Necromancy due to her obsession with undead). Divination can never be banned, though, which is why I didn't mention the fact that we've never seen her use any spells from that school.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    2) Interestingly, Tsukiko appears to have the 3.0 Electric Orb spell from Tome and Blood. The updated 3.5 version from Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium is called Orb of Electricity, and is a conjuration spell, not evocation.
    As it should be, any DM who doesnt force those orb spells (save Orb of Acid) into evocation deserves to suck on a salty lemon. As can whoever made up the distinction between "conjured" fire and "evoked" fire.

    And the Wizard side baring Necromancy while taking Cleric classes is interesting in a cheesy way. Its good villain material.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    3) Today's comic also offers further proof that Tsukiko is a wizard, not a sorcerer, since she was able to look up and memorize a new spell.
    Aye. Previously I would have argued there's still potential that she's a sorcerer, but I'm now convinced she's a wizard.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    I know what you mean about offensive Conjurations (I think the only real difference is that they typically ignore SR, but it seems strange that WotC would come up with spells which would allow someone without Evocation to blast reasonably well).
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  16. - Top - End - #436
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    I think WOTC's reason was that the blast spells were so good that they shouldn't be all in one school. Of course, they were dead wrong about that...

    Anyway, based on today's strip I'd say that Tsukiko has a high constitution. Both wizard and mystic theurge get d4 hit points, and yet she was able to take three fiery sneak attacks from Haley without dropping - that's about 30d6 damage there.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    I think WOTC's reason was that the blast spells were so good that they shouldn't be all in one school. Of course, they were dead wrong about that...

    Anyway, based on today's strip I'd say that Tsukiko has a high constitution. Both wizard and mystic theurge get d4 hit points, and yet she was able to take three fiery sneak attacks from Haley without dropping - that's about 30d6 damage there.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nargrakhan View Post
    Aye. Previously I would have argued there's still potential that she's a sorcerer, but I'm now convinced she's a wizard.
    The RAW says a Sorc can 'learn' new spells not on the Wiz/Sorc list.

    Saying that a Sorc can't learn from a splat book would gimp the Sorc even more than WOTC has already done. The class would never have been released if it couldn't learn from other sources.

    That's like saying that a character can't be a druid cause he knows a spell from the Priest's Handbook.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by baerdith View Post
    The RAW says a Sorc can 'learn' new spells not on the Wiz/Sorc list.

    Saying that a Sorc can't learn from a splat book would gimp the Sorc even more than WOTC has already done. The class would never have been released if it couldn't learn from other sources.

    That's like saying that a character can't be a druid cause he knows a spell from the Priest's Handbook.
    Thats not what we mean. A sorceror can know any spell a Wizard knows, but the only way for a sorceror to cast a spell they dont already have is either with a scroll or by leveling up. A Wizard can add new spells to their spellbook as they recieve them. Therefore, since she picked up a new spell between their previous fights, it is more likely that she researched and learned that new spell, making her a wizard.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    I think you should consider Julia's charisma to be higher than 10 (no evidence)
    She is, after all, the most popular girl in school That implies a fairly high charisma.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    According to Roy, Julia is 3rd level.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Anyway, based on today's strip I'd say that Tsukiko has a high constitution. Both wizard and mystic theurge get d4 hit points, and yet she was able to take three fiery sneak attacks from Haley without dropping - that's about 30d6 damage there.
    I think only one of the attacks gets to be a sneak attack.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame Master Axel View Post
    I think only one of the attacks gets to be a sneak attack.
    No, Tsukiko clearly says "these sneak attacks".
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame Master Axel View Post
    I think only one of the attacks gets to be a sneak attack.
    It depends on what attack Haley used. Manyshot would indeed allow sneak attack damage to be applied only once. However, Haley would need a BaB of +11 to fire three arrows with Manyshot, and all of the arrows would use the same attack bonus -- which means that she definitely wasn't using Manyshot for her second attack, at least, because in panel seven one of the arrows misses while the other two hit. She was probably using Rapid Shot for that, and if she was also using it for her first attack, then sneak attack damage would apply to all three arrows.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    We haven't seen her cast any (arcane) Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy spells. We can't rule out her barring necromancy,
    But you cna rule out banning Divination. You can't ban Divination.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    But you cna rule out banning Divination. You can't ban Divination.
    Really?

    WOTC never figured out that Evocation was their weakest class, not Divination? That making the Orbs conjuration spells was a bad idea that didnt help evokers?
    GRRR.

    <=Reytaff the Wizard, Evoker. He didn't die in a smoking crater, he died leaving one. Just like he wanted.

    I wouldnt be surprised if in the OotS universe, Divination is bannable.
    Last edited by Mr Wizard; 2008-01-04 at 06:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Wizard View Post
    WOTC never figured out that Evocation was their weakest class, not Divination? That making the Orbs conjuration spells was a bad idea that didnt help evokers?
    YA RLY.

    This is because in second ed, divination really was the weakest school (hence the clunky rule of "lesser divination") and in third ed, dropping divination would deny the wizard certain extremely basic spells, most notably detect magic and read magic. (apparently they never considered that Dispel Magic is also extremely basic...)

    And those orbs were moved to conjuration because they create matter; that is a redefinition of the schools for 3.5 (never mind that considering lightning and fire to be "matter" is kind of silly on its own).
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Yeah, the logic is that it creates an Orb that uses SCIENCE to create fire/lightning/acid/ice. It has given me an idea. From now on Orb of Electricity will be attracted to anyone clad in metal, on either team... It still doesnt mesh that it gets "SR:No". I mean, the fire conjured isnt any different from fire evoked. But meh, I guess Evokers have been using Illusionary fire all this time.


    After reading up on the "Tome and Blood" versions of these spells, as other have mentioned, I am now convinced its the "[element] Orb" from that book rather than the "Orb of [element]" found in later books. They are, in fact,correctly listed as Evocation spells (including, strangely, Acid Orb, which should be conjuration). Also, at Tsukiko's level as listed above, I think it does 9d6 damage. Which I think would make the "knockback" aspect artistic license on Rich's part.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    I still find that extremely unlikely. Nale cast Sending seven times. That means he made seven DC 30 checks in a row. You can't take ten with UMD, and for Nale to have even a 50% chance of passing the check, he'd need 20 ranks in UMD, which is more than he could have even if he were a single-class rogue. Supposing that he paid for max ranks, either cross-class or by saving up skill points, he would have ~15 ranks, which would let him pass the check 25% of the time. Even if we allow that he failed a few times off-screen, I don't think UMD is the answer.
    I don't think he failed any "offscreen" since the scrolls he used are at his feet. So we must assume that he had for whatever reason no problem with the scrolls. A potion or spell may have helped of course.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Quote Originally Posted by danneloftyr View Post
    I don't think he failed any "offscreen" since the scrolls he used are at his feet. So we must assume that he had for whatever reason no problem with the scrolls. A potion or spell may have helped of course.
    The way I understand UMD, if you fail a check, you don't waste the item, you just don't activate it and have to try again. So theoretically, he could have failed some UMD checks in between castings and still used the same number of scrolls.

    I still find the whole situation patently absurd, though, as Nale certainly has the 15 charisma needed to cast the scroll the old-fashioned way.

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