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    Default Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Has anyone played one of these? The whole "crystals and robes" ascetic is appealing but psionic items don't get brought up much in guides (except some of the skins) and the Psionic Artificer only gets talk about abusing it.
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    The big problem is that since you can't imitate spells for crafting or infuse them with spell-storing item, your options are way more limited than a normal artificer for not much benefit. Sure, you can use psionic powers for prerequisites if they're a direct analogue to the spell, but a lot of spells don't have psionic equivalents.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Sure, you can use psionic powers for prerequisites if they're a direct analogue to the spell, but a lot of spells don't have psionic equivalents.
    Every arcane spell below ninth has a psionic equivalent due to StP Erudite's existence. Somewhat cheesy, but definitely lets a psionic artificer do what an artificer is supposed to do.

    From magic of Eberron there is the Power Crystal, and from ECS any magic (or psionic) item can be created as an integrated component. You can create integrated cognizance crystals, which would be power points stored within your body. With enough money and prep time you have unlimited powers per day
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Every arcane spell below ninth has a psionic equivalent due to StP Erudite's existence. Somewhat cheesy, but definitely lets a psionic artificer do what an artificer is supposed to do.
    Unfortunately, since you don't have the convert spell to power ability, it doesn't matter that someone else could theoretically have it. Without the ability, you, personally, cannot treat spells as powers.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Unfortunately, since you don't have the convert spell to power ability, it doesn't matter that someone else could theoretically have it. Without the ability, you, personally, cannot treat spells as powers.
    Okay, but if this was true then it would cut both ways "Sorry Artificer, it says you emulate spells, but not whose spells, so you get nothing." When everyone and their mother accepts taking haste off the Trapsmith list.It is convert spell to power not treat spell as power. It's cut and dry that if CStP Erudite and Psionic Artficer exist in the same world then spells that have been converted exist as powers. Now you might have an interesting roleplay exercise in discovering whether your specific desired power exists or finding an Erudite to force it to exist, but it's not a rules question on whether they ARE powers.

    If you want weirdness, do the permanently altered powers from Metapower feat count as separate powers?

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benoojian View Post
    Okay, but if this was true then it would cut both ways "Sorry Artificer, it says you emulate spells, but not whose spells, so you get nothing." When everyone and their mother accepts taking haste off the Trapsmith list.
    I don't agree that that follows from the premise, but even if it did, I'd be fine with that. Eliminating the ability to cheese underleveled spells from prestige classes is all upside as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benoojian View Post
    It is convert spell to power not treat spell as power. It's cut and dry that if CStP Erudite and Psionic Artficer exist in the same world then spells that have been converted exist as powers. Now you might have an interesting roleplay exercise in discovering whether your specific desired power exists or finding an Erudite to force it to exist, but it's not a rules question on whether they ARE powers.

    If you want weirdness, do the permanently altered powers from Metapower feat count as separate powers?
    A lyric thaumaturge who learns a wizard spell doesn't add that spell to the bard list for every future bard in the universe. Why should the erudite be any different?

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    A lyric thaumaturge who learns a wizard spell doesn't add that spell to the bard list for every future bard in the universe. Why should the erudite be any different?
    The difference in wording is massive "are treated as part of YOUR class spell list" vs "convert an arcane spell into a power"

    If I had two plates and said "this is food" and then "this should be treated as food for you" I'd bet you wouldn't eat the second.

    The closer analogue would be whether a custom spell could be learned by a sorceror once he is aware of it.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    A lyric thaumaturge who learns a wizard spell doesn't add that spell to the bard list for every future bard in the universe. Why should the erudite be any different?
    The CStP wording doesn't support this line of argument, though. No mention of adding it to lists, just that it's converted to a power, is effectively a power, and the Erudite can use the rules for learning discipline powers to learn it.

    I'm not, at this time, going to weigh in on the greater question of whether Psionic Artificers can emulate 'powerified' spells, but this particular point does not apply to the issue.
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Every arcane spell below ninth has a psionic equivalent due to StP Erudite's existence. Somewhat cheesy, but definitely lets a psionic artificer do what an artificer is supposed to do.

    From magic of Eberron there is the Power Crystal, and from ECS any magic (or psionic) item can be created as an integrated component. You can create integrated cognizance crystals, which would be power points stored within your body. With enough money and prep time you have unlimited powers per day
    This is the exact cheese I am not interested in, as I said in the OP all conversations become about StP and not about psionic items and what you can do with just psionics. For the sake of this thread I am hoping to focus on a StPless world.
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    This is the exact cheese I am not interested in, as I said in the OP all conversations become about StP and not about psionic items and what you can do with just psionics. For the sake of this thread I am hoping to focus on a StPless world.
    Sorry didn't realize you didn't want gouda from the op. I still recommend the two items mentioned. The other psionic only item that I believe is absolutely lovely, is the psionic tattoo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    From the Magic Item Compendium:
    PSIONICS AND CRAFTING MAGIC ITEMS
    Many of the items in this book can also be created by a character with the appropriate psionic item creation feat.
    For the purpose of meeting item prerequisites, a character who has the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor feat is treated as having Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Likewise, a character who has Craft Universal Item meets the feat prerequisite for items that require Craft Wondrous Item.
    If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted. If the item replicates a spell effect, then only the psionic version of that spell or a psionic power that replicates the same effect can be used to satisfy the prerequisite. For example, a character can create a helm of teleportation using psionic teleport as a power prerequisite, or energy burst as a power to create a necklace of fireballs.
    The prerequisites of some items, such as the eldritch blast required for gauntlets of eldritch energy, have no psionic equivalent, and so cannot be created by a psionic character without the aid of a character who does meet the requirement.
    If you are using the Psionics Is Different variant (EPH 65), then an item created by a psionic character using a psionic item creation feat would be a psionic item. The guidelines given above should be used to determine the psionic itemís feat and power prerequisites.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Psionic Artificer is worthless.

    The thing that puts Powers above Spells is being able to Augment powers through the statosphere with Overchannel, Wild Surge, Quori Power Link Shards, etc. Psionic Artificers cannot augment powers.

    The thing that puts Spells above Powers is powerful out of combat combos. StPless world means Psionic Artificer doesn't have that over Psions.

    There's like... 1 construct you can build with Psionic Craft Construct making Psionic Artificers inconceivably worse than normal artificers.

    If you follow MiC's rules, you're gonna say to your DM "please please pleaaaaaaaassssse let me use Planar Champion to substitute Planar Binding or Planar Ally in psionic item creation despite Planar Champion being in no way similar to the spells other than having the word "planar" in them!"

    The only thing and I mean the ONLY think I see the Psionic Artificer doing is doing the Mind Switch + Astral Seed combo at level 13. But without Gate, Simulacrum, or Planar Binding the Artificer is restricted to monsters he finds or Sibyllic Guardian or Cerebrilith to swap minds with.

    So in the end you gotta use Reality Revision to create magic items of 25,000gp or less like a scroll of Gate or Simulacrum at level 15 and then the Mind Switch Astral Seed Combo to turn yourself into a powerful physical outsider.

    Just play a normal artificer and dress yourself all shiny and crystal ball-y.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    From the Magic Item Compendium:
    Exactly, this is the passage that makes Psionic Artificer potentially more powerful than a regular one. If you don't use MiC and therefore don't allow them to make magic items too, they become substantially weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Exactly, this is the passage that makes Psionic Artificer potentially more powerful than a regular one. If you don't use MiC and therefore don't allow them to make magic items too, they become substantially weaker.
    I disagree. If an item replicates a spell effect you can't make it. And the spell effects are what makes Artificer and magic items so powerful.

    Psionic Aritficer > Artificer solely because of StP erudite. No StP = no spells, power augmentations, or any of the good magic items = weaksauce.
    Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2020-06-08 at 10:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    I disagree. If an item replicates a spell effect you can't make it.
    That only applies if there isn't a power that replicates that spell. The example given (helm of teleportation) is legal because psionic teleport exists. And given that energy burst can be used to make necklace of fireballs (despite being capable of much more than balls of fire) the interpretation there seems to be fairly broad.

    In addition, there are many useful items that don't replicate spells directly. For example, Belt of Giant Strength doesn't directly replicate Bull's Strength, so animal affinity can be used to make it.

    And that's all before StP Erudite as you stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That only applies if there isn't a power that replicates that spell. The example given (helm of teleportation) is legal because psionic teleport exists. And given that energy burst can be used to make necklace of fireballs (despite being capable of much more than balls of fire) the interpretation there seems to be fairly broad.

    In addition, there are many useful items that don't replicate spells directly. For example, Belt of Giant Strength doesn't directly replicate Bull's Strength, so animal affinity can be used to make it.

    And that's all before StP Erudite as you stated.
    Useful =/= Powerful.

    If there is a psionic version of the spell, a Psion is better than the Psionic Artificer in every way not only because of augmentation but also because the Psion gets to use it for free. No StP Erudite Psionic Artificer is like tier 3 not 0 or 1.

    Unless you can show me a list of psionic items or magic items converted into psionic items that will render a character ridiculously powerful, I'm gonna stick to my opinion that a Psionic Artificer is a tier 3 utility support class with no power.

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    d20 Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    I think you'd need to do some adaptation work to fill out the adaptation idea.

    You'd need to work out what items in specific can or can't be created.

    You'd need to decide if the spell-centric Infusions also get psionic adaptations.

    You'd need to adapt Artificer feats on a one-by-one basis to see what's already usable with psionic items, and what needs to be adapted.


    If you did all that, you might end up with something in the same tier as the regular Artificer.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Crafting is still pretty strong but yeah, it's definitely lower-tier.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Has anyone played one of these? The whole "crystals and robes" ascetic is appealing but psionic items don't get brought up much in guides (except some of the skins) and the Psionic Artificer only gets talk about abusing it.
    As others have mentioned, it's because Psionic Artificers have no advantages. No PrC power lists. Most powers are suited for a sorcerer rather than a wizard as in they're mostly blasting and nothing else, and the best powers are augmented low level powers so the PA's early access to powers doesn't really do much.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    I'm going to play devil's advocate here a bit; I agree that a psionic artificer is weaker than a Psion with access to StP powers, and may in practice be weaker even than one that doesn't. But a psion is itself at the upper end of T2 (The community rankings put it at 1.78, though I personally think it could stand to be higher) so I think there is still room in that band. I find it challenging to place a class that can do just about everything a psion can do while also having several advantages they don't (e.g. able to craft wondrous items and magic weapons/armor, crafting psionic items it doesn't have the prerequisite powers for, disenchanting useless items to create items the party actually needs more cheaply, trapfinding, and using metapsionic feats without needing a psionic focus) in T3. They also have an easier time buffing their party in several ways, because unlike many psionic powers, infusions can be used on others (placed into items, or used on construct party members directly.) They also have two advantages over a regular artificer - their items are typed (psionic), so psionic party members can use them (and learn from them, in the case of an erudite) without UMD/UPD checks; and second, some psionic items tend to be more useful than their magic counterparts (dorjes vs. wands especially, not to mention special psionic items like psychoactive skins and manifester arrows.) If nothing else, I would be more apt to use a Psionic Artificer as the skillmonkey/trapmonkey in a psionic party ahead of a Lurk, and likely even a Psychic Rogue, unless item creation and/or Eberron classes were off the table entirely.

    EDIT: A lot of the tricks in the No-Crafting Artificer guide apply to Psionic Artificers too, because they have the same infusion list (and can spontaneously cast everything on that list.) And once you get your hands on Quintessence things really take off, because you can then prepare a bunch of infused items far in advance of when you might need them.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    As others have mentioned, it's because Psionic Artificers have no advantages. No PrC power lists. Most powers are suited for a sorcerer rather than a wizard as in they're mostly blasting and nothing else, and the best powers are augmented low level powers so the PA's early access to powers doesn't really do much.
    You can craft power completion and power trigger items at a higher ML, which causes them to automatically augment to that higher level, so they can blast pretty competently too. They also get Dorje Mastery as a bonus feat, which is another +4 ML of augmentation free of charge for any dorjes you make/use.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-06-09 at 10:59 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    EDIT: A lot of the tricks in the No-Crafting Artificer guide apply to Psionic Artificers too, because they have the same infusion list (and can spontaneously cast everything on that list.) And once you get your hands on Quintessence things really take off, because you can then prepare a bunch of infused items far in advance of when you might need them.
    So we got two tricks in favor of Psionic Artificer.
    Astral Seed + Mind Switch 2 levels earlier than normal.
    A growing stockpile of power storing items immersed in quintessence activated with Dorje Mastery.

    It takes a move action to retrieve the item and another move action to scrape the quintessence off so there is a 1 round delay before you can use the power you need.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Psi Artificer gets access to all Discipline powers, right? That's something.

    There aren't many (any?) PrC power lists but there are some PrCs which give powers at lower level, like Elocator which gives psi teleport and psi plane shift as if they were 3rd level powers. Not sure if that's usable.

    Psychic Warrior gets a few powers at lower level than Psion; do any other base classes like the Lurk / Psi Rogue / Ardent do the same?

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Well, there are ways to get your dorjes out faster than a move action, such as a Wand Bracelet (swift in MiC, free action in MoE).

    But my main point is that "weaker than a psion" doesn't mean "bad". and it doesn't even necessarily mean "T3."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    EDIT: A lot of the tricks in the No-Crafting Artificer guide apply to Psionic Artificers too, because they have the same infusion list (and can spontaneously cast everything on that list.)
    Not exactly the same infusion list. There's one pretty key infusion that's missing: spell-storing item, which is replaced by a psionic equivalent that only works for powers, not spells.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Not exactly the same infusion list. There's one pretty key infusion that's missing: spell-storing item, which is replaced by a psionic equivalent that only works for powers, not spells.
    I am going to look into that. The powers that stand out immediately are Call Item and Minor Creation, granting poison abilities at low levels is pretty good (known cheese.)

    The best abilities are going to be ones that are instantaneous and don't require augmenting, such as Hustle, Lion Charge or Dimension Door.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Not exactly the same infusion list. There's one pretty key infusion that's missing: spell-storing item, which is replaced by a psionic equivalent that only works for powers, not spells.
    Sure - but even if you throw out StP Erudite powers - you can solve a lot of problems with 4th-level and below powers. Hell, Dominate Monster is 4th level in psionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sure - but even if you throw out StP Erudite powers - you can solve a lot of problems with 4th-level and below powers. Hell, Dominate Monster is 4th level in psionics.
    Yeah, and Psi Plane Shift might be a 3rd level power.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But my main point is that "weaker than a psion" doesn't mean "bad". and it doesn't even necessarily mean "T3."
    Yup. That's my bad. I shouldn't have said worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I am going to look into that. The powers that stand out immediately are Call Item and Minor Creation, granting poison abilities at low levels is pretty good (known cheese.)

    The best abilities are going to be ones that are instantaneous and don't require augmenting, such as Hustle, Lion Charge or Dimension Door.
    Poison abilities are not cheese. Complete Adventurer gave them a stupidly high craft DC so you need to invest everything into craft poisonmaking including feats and spells that boost skill checks in order to have a shot at hitting those DCs at low level.

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    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    Yup. That's my bad. I shouldn't have said worthless.



    Poison abilities are not cheese. Complete Adventurer gave them a stupidly high craft DC so you need to invest everything into craft poisonmaking including feats and spells that boost skill checks in order to have a shot at hitting those DCs at low level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    There is an incredible abuse here in the form of Myconid potions. Myconids can make mundane potions from a list, which gives you access to magical healing and other goodies.

    Spoiler
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    bull's strength, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, delay poison, endurance, endure elements, greater magic fang, invisibility to animals, lesser restoration, magic fang, negative energy protection, neutralize poison, protection from elements, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, remove paralysis, resist elements


    That is a lot of spells for one psionic power.
    "Minor Creation and Major Creation: Plant and mineral based poisons
    Craft DC 15/None: Belladonna (Monster Manual). Ingested: DC 13, 1d6 Str damage/2d6 Str damage. No craft check necessary for just the raw plant, which is poisonous.
    Craft DC 15/None: Yew (Online). Ingested: DC 13, 1d2 Con damage/2d6 Con damage. No craft check necessary for just the raw bark or leaves, which is poisonous.
    Craft DC 15/None: Striped Toadstool (DMG). Ingested: DC 11, deals 1 Wis/2d6 Wis and 1d4 Int. Presumably no craft check necessary for just the raw toadstool.
    Craft DC 15?: Stun Gas (Underdark). Inhaled: DC 12, Stun effect.
    Craft DC 15/None: Volcanic Gas (Sandstorm). Inhaled: DC 13, Unconsciousness/1d6 Con. Major Creation should work with this.
    Craft DC 15: Blue Whinnis (DMG). Injury: DC 14, deals 1 Con/Unconsciousness
    Craft DC 15: Bloodroot (DMG). Injury: DC 12, deals 0/1d4 Con +1d3 Wis
    Craft DC 15: Arsenic (DMG): DC 13 Ingested, 1 Con/1d8 Con. The "King of Poisons" is quite tame in D&D, and can be crafted with Major Creation.
    Craft DC 15: Sleeping Vine (A&E 37): DC 13, slowed/1d4 Dex
    Craft DC 15: Id Moss (DMG): DC 14 Ingested, 1d4 Int/2d6 Int
    Craft DC 15: Good-Bye Kiss (C. Scoundrel) Contact: Exhaustion/Exhaustion, Fatigued on a successful save)
    Craft DC 15: Drow Poison (DMG) Injury DC 13, Unconsciousness/Unconsciousness. *Noted as being distilled from fungi and roots in C. Scoundrel
    Craft DC 17: Psychotropic Rot (DoTU 94): Ingested: DC 15, deals 1d4 Wis/3d8 Hp.
    Craft DC 20: Vapid Leaf Extract (A&E 37): DC 16, Dazed/2d6 Int.
    Craft DC 20?: Spotted Toadstool Venom (Player's Guide to Eberron). Injury: DC 16, 1d6 Str/1d6 Con.
    Craft DC 20: Malyss Root paste (DMG). Injury DC 16, deals 1 Dex/2d4 Dex damage.
    Craft DC 20: Sassone leaf residue (DMG): Contact DC 16, deals 2d12 damage/1d6 Con.
    Craft DC 21: Cave Terror (Underdark). DC 20, Confusion effect.
    Craft DC 25: Terinav Root (DMG). Contact DC 20, deals 1d6/2d6 Dex.
    Craft DC 25?: Sinmaker's Surprise (Manual of the Planes). Injury DC 24, Ingested DC 18. Deals 1d6 Con/2d6 Con, and 1d6 Acid for 3 rounds.
    Craft DC 28: Darklight Brew (DoTU 94): Injury DC 23, Deals an initial 2d6 Con and 1d6 Strength damage, and blindness as a secondary effect! Can be crafted with Major Creation.
    Craft DC 35: Black Lotus Extract (DMG). DC 20, deals 3d6/3d6 Con.
    Craft DC 35?: Greensickness (Dungeonscape, MMIII). DC 33, deals 2d6 Str + 1d4 Con/2d6 Str + 1d4 Con. *Confirmed that this is plant-based - it's from the Plague Brush in MMIII, an extraplanar house-sized tumbleweed of death. Words fail me. Craft DC given is an estimate by PlzBreakMyCampaign, my own inclination would be to make it DC 40 or 45.
    "

    So you get access to a lot of potions and very powerful poisons using a first level slot. That is pretty old, well known cheese.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: Psionic Artificer without imitating spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    So you get access to a lot of potions and very powerful poisons using a first level slot. That is pretty old, well known cheese.
    How are you hitting those craft DCs?

    Major Creation is 5th level or higher so you will not be using it out of a first level slot.
    Only a handful of poisons have their recipes stated somewhere in lore.
    Only a handful of handful of poisons are entirely vegetative matter.
    Only a handful of handful of handful of them are usable in combat because a good deal of them have to be ingested, or the good effects happen 1minute later which is 8-9rounds longer than it takes to kill the creature with brute force.
    The ones that can see practical use at low levels have such high craft DC that if you are high enough to hit them the enemies you face have saves so high the poisons don't matter.

    I went down this route and failed miserably. That is how I know it's not cheese. And power storing item requires XP to cast so unless you don't care about that you will be using it out of the 4th level slot Concurrent Infusions to get around that XP cost.
    Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2020-06-09 at 01:48 PM.

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