Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Sapphire Guard]

Stop prioritising your family over the entertainment of strangers on the internet immediately!

[Peelee]

Stop prioritising your family over the entertainment of strangers on the internet immediately!

Dammit, if I hadn't just changed my sig line I would have asked to sig that.

[Fyraltari]

Season 4, Episode 17: The Box

Spoiler: Recap

Show

Thanks to his association with Eval and Bane, Kenobi did manage to locate Dooku at last! He was on his own palace, on his homeworld the whole time, the fiend! Eval introduces "Hardeen" to Dooku and suggests they enlist him into the tournament that the opening narration mentionned as if we were already aware there was going to be one. Dooku agrees to pay the mercenaries, at long last, and promises even greater rewards (triple Bane's fee, I don't know if that includes his previous tripling of his fee back in the jail), provided they survive their little friendly contest of course. Back in the Jedi Temple, Yoda confesses to Anakin that he lied to him and admits he was wrong (well, that's a first). He explains that Anakin is powerful but unpredictable and can be dangerous, so Obi-Wan couldn't rely on him to sit tight while he was dangerously undercover. Okay, that's a much better reason to lie to him than that "his reaction needed to be genuine" bullcrap. What it also his, is an implicit acknowledgement of how terrible a Jedi he is, and, in turn, how badlu they screwed his training up.

It's night on Serenno and Harkeen and Bane join a dozen or so of shady-looking people, including Embo from the Seven Samurai episode. Bane spots an Ithorian cosplaying as him and gets pissed at how nice his hat is. The Ithorian draws a gun but Bane is faster and he loots his (nicer) hat from the corpse. Dooku and Eval show up and the Count introduces everybody: A weequay ninja who won "the Obsidian Sphere", whatever that is, twice, a humanoid mushroom with tentacles nicknamed "the exterminator", lovely, a devil-looking dude nicknamed "the Outland butcher", original, Embo whose bounty tally was second to one (Bane?) last season, Cad Bane, who needs no introduction, badass, "Rako Hardeen", the Marksman of Concord Dawn (hold up, Hardeen is a Mando?), a Rodian who never brings anyone back alive, the surviving member of a legendary team of Ithorian brothers (Dooku shows absolutely no sympathy, but I gotta salute the resolve of still going through even though his sibling just died, right now. But I gotta unsalute the fact that he didn't shoot Bane when he turned his back on him just now), a lizard woman who Valorum once praised for her acrobatics, a porcine man who invented the holographic disguise matrix and a Selkath, "Your people were once a peaceful race, how far they've fallen", that's just rude, Count. Dooku explains they will all enter (without weapons) a huge floating cube (that they apparently failed to notice until then) called "The Box" (creative), but only the five best will be allowed to leave and participate in an operation that will "bring the Republic to its pitiful knees". Morallo Eval steps up and explains that he designed The Box to simulate certain situations that might happen on the job. Isn't the kidnapping going to happen tomorrow? This feels way to let for them to be deciding who they are going to hire.

The candidates arrive inside an empty white room where an image of Eval tells them there are no rules inside and that their objective it to escape. Quickly. A tile in the floor retracts, realeasing a noxious gas (well, smoke actually) while other rises above the cloud. The bounty hunters fight for a spot on the collumns but everybody gets one eventually, except the mushroom man who can levitate apparently. Of course the columns keep rising, threatening to squash them against the ceiling. Kenobi guesses that is the way out isn't up, it must be down, and jumps into the cloud, protected by his helmet's filters. He jumps further down, inside the hole where the gas is coming from and finds a corridor under the cloud. He tells the others to follow him, which they do, lead by Bane. They just have to hold their breath a few seconds so everyone makes it out alive.

They end up in a similar room, where Moralo guarantees the next challenge will kill some of them. The light go out but various blocks of the walls start racing towards them with freaking lightsabers at the end! How many does Dooku own? Okay on closer inspection, they produce some sort of electric arc when stabbing someone, so they aren't lightsabers but look a lot like them. The Ithorian is the first to die. Ten left. while everybody dodges frantically until they gather in the center of the room which is relatively safer. Dooku, watching alongside Hardeen from some control room, says he senses something "different" about Hardeen, and is impressed to learn he killed Kenobi. Come on! Can't you recognize his presence in the Force? You know Kenobi. Obi-Wan spots a pattern in the moving plates that creates a temporary staircase towards a hole in the ceiling, he tells them to follow him and starts climbing. The weequay gets killed. Nine left. In the background Embo seems to be throttling the porcine man and he disappears after that. What is this about? Anyway, eight left. All the other bounty hunters get to show off their skills in climbing while dodging the blades (Embo just jumps good, while the mushroom man casually floats to some plates he uses to err.. roll around?).

Eval seems frustrated by the outcome, while Dooku wonders if Hardeen wouldn't be the best leader of the team. Morallo says they'll see what happens when he's not the key the group's survival. They have reached some red-lighted room (Obi-wan helps the rodian climb, that's nice) where Eval explains that the second-to-last challenge is to get past some ray-shields. The switch is on the other side, of course but he gives them a syringe containing one dose of highly electrolytic (I think he said?) that allow passage throught the shileds but is toxic to all but one of them. And the shields are slowly getting closer, as is only natural. They start looking for a way to reach the switch (which is high up on the wall) when part of the ground rises under their feet. the Rodian is left below just as another shield switches on on the ground, electrocuting him. Seven left. Huh, did ray shields ever do that before? A paths rises from the floor towards the switch. The mushroom man grabs the syringe. Bane objects and can't understand what the other bounty hunter is saying. But, Obi-Wan can. Is there a tally of how many languages Kenobi speaks? Turns out his species is called Parwan, and they can handle the serum. Well, Kenobi clarifies that it's a fifty-fifty chance, depending on the blood-type. And the platform starts retracting. The Selkath falls before Obi-Wan can grab his hand and dies. Six left. The Parwan injects himself, slooowly passes through the shields and switches it off. Bane wants to know how "Hardeen" knows so much about Parwans "I used to kill them for a living. -Gah!". Heh, that was funny. And horrifying.

Dooku tells Eval that his box doesn't seem to be as much of a challenge as he thought and perhaps he should put Hardeen in charge of the mission. Why, though? They've almost whittled them down to the required fives and there's only one test to go. Isn't that a success? Eval protests that Dooku promised him the lead role and the sith gives hil the last test to change his mind. Eval then leaves the control room to get to a ledge overseeing the final chamber for no reason. The last room is grey and they arrive on a platform, the ground below being covered in flamethrowers. A part of the wall reveals a case containing a sniper rifle and a moving targets lights up on the opposite wall. The devil-looking dude grabs it and tells the others he'll show them how it's done. He walks to the edge of the platform and shoots the target twice, missing the third time. The floor collapses under him and he falls into the flames. Down to five. Well test over, you've got your five mercenaries: Bane, "Hardeen", Embo, the parwan and the reptilian acrobat. No? this is still going? Eval wants "Hardeen" dead? But you said you need five people for the job? Aren't you compromising your masterplan? Obi-Wan grabs another rifle and shoots the target three times. Nothing happens, but Evel uses his armband controls to rise the platform under the other four, then lowers it around "Hardeen" and teels him he needs five more hits. Also there are two targets now. OBi-wan gets four hits in and runs out of ammo. Eval tells him luck is very important for bounty hunters and drops the platform under him. Bane catches him with his grappling hook. Was Obi-Wan just going to accept death rather than break his cover there?

Bane tells Eval to kill Hardeen like a man and Dooku concurs. He switches most of the flamethrowers off, leaving only a rectangle along the walls and trips Eval onto the ground before providing, and lowereing, a column for "Hardeen" to join him. Eval summons a couple of miniature probe droids (they even do the usual sounds) to shoot at his opponent. Kenobi punches most of them out of existence, then grabs the last one, uses it to do a wall run and throws it at Eval (it bouces and crashes into the flames) okay, that was cool. Morallo creates a little maze to evade him for a moment and trap him with some flamethrowers, but Kenobi jumps out, tackles Morallo and breaks his control armband. They puch each other, until Obi-Wan gets the better of him, beats the crap out of the guy while his head is dangerously close to the flames.

Dooku orders him to finish him, but he declines "I just want to do my job and get my money." Dooku calls him lacking in leadership skills. Murder is a leadership skill? I guess that's the Sith for ya. He explains that they will kidnapp Palpatine the next day at the festival on Naboo and exchange him for the release of all Separatists prisoners. That's it? You went through all this just to get Watt Tambor, Poggle the Lesser and a handful of flunkies out of jail? That's... really disappointing. Eval will explain the plan on the way, but the operation will be lead by... CAd Bane.

Spoiler: My thoughts

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Let's start with the Anakin bit. Like I said, it's a better reason to keep him out of the loop than we had before and an acknowledgement that he's a bad Jedi (Maybe they would have trusted him to follow orders more if they had punished him the many times he didn't.) I'm guessing he'll be running the security on Naboo too.

Now for the baddies' plan. Why are they doing all that on the eve of the job? They won't even have a good night's rest before going in, that's insane. And what if fewer than five of them survived, as Morallo Eval was et on making happen? Or if the parwan had died? He was apparently irreplaceable. I don't understand why the writers didn't set the last episode of this arc like, a week at least after the other three. Also, Wow, the Naboo festival has some strange security apparently. Also I find it funny that not one of the bounty hunters noped out of the the less-than-1/2-chances-to-get-out-alive contest that's just a preliminary for a vaguely defined job for an equally as vague reward.

Why did Moralo feel threatened by "Hardeen"? He vouched for him, "Hardeen" being the most competent should reflect positively on him.

Next up: Crisis on Naboo, as opposed to all the other times we've been to Naboo where it was all super peachy.

[Sapphire Guard]

Nothing that happens in the Box makes any sense. Also Obi Wan is very bad at being in disguise. If he's not there, then all the bounty hunters are dead and you have no one left to work for you, rendering the whole thing pretty pointless.

[pendell]

Spoiler: Fyaltari

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Why did Moralo feel threatened by "Hardeen"? He vouched for him, "Hardeen" being the most competent should reflect positively on him.

Remember who they're working for. Remember they just entered a competition from whom only half emerged alive.

That's the Sith for you. They're like {scrubbed}.

[we're going to have a sales contest]. First prize is an Eldorado Cadillac. Second Prize is a second set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.

The Sith do not encourage comradery, teamwork, or friendship. They encourage brutal competition, treachery, and ruthlessness.

So it's no surprise that other 'employees' in this environment feel threatened by any show of really great merit or skill among another of their members. It means that sooner or later this person is going to mean your own death, because you'll be forced to compete with them at some point in a contest where continued life is the prize for winning.

We see some of that in Empire Strikes Back as well. Remember how Admiral Ozzel glared at Captain Piett when Piett found the rebel base and Vader took his side over Ozzel's? Ozzel glared at him because Piett had made him look bad, made him look stupid, and that is not at all a good look in front of a boss like Vader.

Turns out, Admiral Ozzel was right to be concerned. Vader did, in fact, kill him and replace him with Piett. Such is the way of the Sith. They don't tolerate any show of weakness or incompetence.

You would think that such an environment would produce very competent people through ruthless Darwinism. But as far as I can see , it doesn't. What it actually promotes are people like Ozzel, people whose main skill is at looking good in front of superiors, taking all possible credit and deflecting as much blame as feasible onto other subordinates.

So that kind of environment actually kills merit rather than causing it to thrive. Because anyone who shows real merit but doesn't also have the social acumen to protect themselves will have their credit stolen, be laden with the blame for some failure, and pushed out of the organization or reassigned to some miserable post far away where they can show all the brilliance they like, say, running a weather station in Greenland, but no one important will notice. Maybe if they're lucky someone will take them on as a protege so they can do the work the other person will take credit for and , in return, give them a measure of protection. But as a rule, the people who rise to the top are people like Ozzel, people good at the social game while carefully disguising their own lack of skill at their ostensible job. Unless they actually get put in a spot like Ozzel did where their actual lack of competence is put on obvious display to the whole world. But for every one Ozzel caught out, there are many more just like him who are better at hiding it.

That's the Sith for you. They encourage treachery and competition. So their subordinates hate and fear anyone better than themselves, will conspire to eliminate them. Like in an RTS game where it's never a good idea to be doing obviously better than everyone else, lest the other players all gang up on you.

That's also, in my opinion, one reason they lost the original wars with the Jedi. Sith are individually more powerful, but they can't team up. This allows Jedi teams to collaborate and eliminate Sith , sometimes with the help of competing Sith. That's why there's the Rule of Two, and that's why the Sith were in hiding for a thousand years instead of ruling the galaxy.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

I know of a movie (serie?) called The Cube. Was this a reference to that?

Obi Wan is very bad at being in disguise.

How so?

If he's not there, then all the bounty hunters are dead and you have no one left to work for you, rendering the whole thing pretty pointless.

I think Bane could have managed.

Spoiler: Fyaltari

Show

Why did Moralo feel threatened by "Hardeen"? He vouched for him, "Hardeen" being the most competent should reflect positively on him.

Did you mix the "spoiler" and "quote" buttons?

Remember who they're working for. Remember they just entered a competition from whom only half emerged alive.

That's the Sith for you. They're like {scrubbed}.



The Sith do not encourage comradery, teamwork, or friendship. They encourage brutal competition, treachery, and ruthlessness.

So it's no surprise that other 'employees' in this environment feel threatened by any show of really great merit or skill among another of their members.

But Eval isn't in The Box, he's not in competition with these people. He came up with the plan and made the necessary preparations and groundwork. They're working for him. To reuse your example, it's less like Oszel worrying about Piett and more like Ozzel worrying about stormtrooper TK-2375, they're not on the same level, it doesn't make sense.

We see some of that in Empire Strikes Back as well. Remember how Admiral Ozzel glared at Captain Piett when Piett found the rebel base and Vader took his side over Ozzel's? Ozzel glared at him because Piett had made him look bad, made him look stupid, and that is not at all a good look in front of a boss like Vader.

I think directly proving your boss wrong in front of the big boss would earn you a mean look in any work environment.

Turns out, Admiral Ozzel was right to be concerned. Vader did, in fact, kill him and replace him with Piett. Such is the way of the Sith. They don't tolerate any show of weakness or incompetence.

Seems like they tolerate some, this this wasn't the first time Ozzel failed him.

You would think that such an environment would produce very competent people through ruthless Darwinism. But as far as I can see , it doesn't. What it actually promotes are people like Ozzel, people whose main skill is at looking good in front of superiors, taking all possible credit and deflecting as much blame as feasible onto other subordinates.

So that kind of environment actually kills merit rather than causing it to thrive. Because anyone who shows real merit but doesn't also have the social acumen to protect themselves will have their credit stolen, be laden with the blame for some failure, and pushed out of the organization or reassigned to some miserable post far away where they can show all the brilliance they like, say, running a weather station in Greenland, but no one important will notice. Maybe if they're lucky someone will take them on as a protege so they can do the work the other person will take credit for and , in return, give them a measure of protection. But as a rule, the people who rise to the top are people like Ozzel, people good at the social game while carefully disguising their own lack of skill at their ostensible job. Unless they actually get put in a spot like Ozzel did where their actual lack of competence is put on obvious display to the whole world. But for every one Ozzel caught out, there are many more just like him who are better at hiding it.

That's the Sith for you. They encourage treachery and competition. So their subordinates hate and fear anyone better than themselves, will conspire to eliminate them. Like in an RTS game where it's never a good idea to be doing obviously better than everyone else, lest the other players all gang up on you.

That's also, in my opinion, one reason they lost the original wars with the Jedi. Sith are individually more powerful, but they can't team up. This allows Jedi teams to collaborate and eliminate Sith , sometimes with the help of competing Sith. That's why there's the Rule of Two, and that's why the Sith were in hiding for a thousand years instead of ruling the galaxy.

Indeed, also standard reminder that Social Darwinism was around before Darwin and he did not approve of it.

[Fyraltari]

Season 4, episode 18: Crisis on Naboo

Spoiler: Recap

Show

Windu is briefing a team of Jedi on Palpatine's security during "the Festival of Light". Mostly it's lotsa guards and a ray-shield bubble around Palps for when he's giving his speech. However, they've had no contacts with Kenobi, so they don't know what the ennemy is planning. speaking of which, Eval and the hunters take out a bunch of workers inside of a speeder hangar so that they can have a last meeting before the plan starts. Also present is Count Dooku who I guess is here to supervise things personally. So much for putting Bane in charge. However, once he's done a little speech, Bane hands out small devices that will track their position and give them precise instructions. Obi-Wan still wants to know the overall plan, of course. Wasn't bane sup^posed to brief them on the way? The mushroom-man will breach the shield, Morallo will be the getaway driver, Embo and the acrobat will pose as bodyguards for the chancellor and "Hardeen" will be their eye in the sky, with a sniper rifle. Bane then places a device on the table that projects four holograms of Senate guards. These "shadow-holograms" serve as disguises and can apparently still exist when the people wearing them are away from the thing projecting them, because magic. I think that's the "holographic disguise matrix" the pork-man who died in the Box had invented. Cad then declares radio silence and sends everyone on their way. Before he leaves, Dooku tells him to watch Hardeen, as he doesn't trust him. Bane simply says he's watching them all.

Palpatine arrives on Naboo, accompanied by Mass Amedda, Mace Windu, Anakin and Ahsoka and some assorted clones. He is greeted by the queen of naboo, PAdmé, Bail Organa and Sio Bibble, advisor to the queen, whose name I only remember because of Darths & Droids. Hmm, I wonder if that's a nod. Probably not, this show was doing prequel memes before it was a thing. Palps is glad to be home, but he thinks all the security is overkill, brushing aside MAce's insistence that it really is not. Anakin muses to PAdmé that the crowd makes an attack difficult during the ceremony, so he thinks they'll be ambushed in the Palace. When trouble comes, Ahsoka will be chraged with bringing Padmé, the queen and her staff to safety while he saves the day. Obi-wan got to his position, a balcony overseeing the plaza where the ceremony is going to happen (itself some kind of balcony overlooking a lake), and calls Windu. He tells him what he knows, including that his sniper rifle is loaded with stun blasts to knock the Chancellor out. Obi-wan will report everything he sees to Mace, who he advises to have the identity of all the guards double-checked.

Later that evening Palpatine walks in to the plaza where a bunch of Naboo bigwigs and Senator applaud him. Among the foreigners is a Neimoidian (Lott Dod?), Must have been an awkward day for him, what with the Trade Federation's recent invasion. Once he's in, Skywalker has the ray-shield bubble form. The chancellor starts his speech by mentionning that Naboo joined the Republic 847 years prior which I'm sure contradicts half a dozen novels, two comic strips and one cereal box puzzle game. Ah and turns out the Neimodidian is Cad Bane (did he abduct somebody who was meant to be there?) whose disguise glitches out in the middle of the speech but nobody notices, somehow. While he's perorating, the camera pans to two guards crossing paths under him. One asks the others' identification number, and satisfied with the answer let the other go. The guard who asked? The mushroom-man bounty hunter. this is after they increased security from the already increased security after... I think that was the droid-bombing attack or maybe Bane's take over of the senate? Point is, these guys are bozos. Palpatine starts a firework show (that inculdes the movies' opening scroll, what the hell, that's amazing!) while the mushroom-man gets near a shield generator.

Obi-wan spots him (he spots his hologram glitching, so that's in-universe, not just for the audience's eyes only. Worse disguises ever) and warns Windu who tells Anakin. The hunter reaches through and touches the generator, making it explode, for some reason. Windu orders two guards to escort the unconscious Chancellor to a speeder. Huh, do it yourself, you moron, you know some of the guards are fake! Ahsoka takes her charges away from the action, while Anakin leaps at the hunter. who surprises him with an electric attack that knocks him out. The mushroom man flies away on a jetpack, but is shot down by Kenobi... whose blaster only ahd one shot in it. How did you not check that? Windu starts looking for bane, while Embo and the acrobat put a disguise on Palpatine, making him look like a downed guard, the acrobat now looking like Palpatine. They head for the speeder while Bane, still disguised carries away the Chancellor. Windu wakes Skywalker up just as Kenobi warns them that the guard escorting "the Chancellor" is a bounty hunter. Faced with two lightsabers to his face, Embo wisely surrenders without a fight. The acrobat reveals herself by punching Anakin and gets her hand chopped off for it. What did she think would happen?

Eval shows up to pick Bane and Palpatine up and they escape right under Windu and Skywalker's noses. Obi-wan steals a speeder and follows them to the rendez-vous point, while transmitting his location to the Jedi. Once there, Eval starts gloating that his plan worked to perfection. Half your team downed and one additional sixth missing is perfection to you? Bane and him start arguing about who desrves the credi, but Bane is suspicious that Dooku is nowhere to be found even though he' was supposed to meet them there. "hardeen" shows up, apparently early on schedule. Bane decides Dooku double-crossed them, which panics Eval. The Duro thinks he can delivers Palpatine to somebody else for money (the Hutts, mayhaps?). So Kenobi draws a gun on him. They fight for a bit until the Jedi overpowers them both. The cavalry arrives a bit late to take the hunters away. Bane overhears Windu call "Hardeen" Obi-Wan and he starts trading insults with him, promising to kill him in the future.

Mission accomplished! The day after that, the Republic troops are sent back to Coruscant on Palpatin's orders, he's content with Anakin as security, now that the threat has passed. Anakin teels Obi-Wan he could have helped him, IF the Council had trusted him. Obi-wan tells him it was his decision to hide it from him, because Dooku would believe he was dead if Anakin did too. HOW!? WHY!? Obi-Wan makes a half-assed apology, which just make sAnakin angrier. "How many other lies have I been told by the Council!?" Ah, I figured this meme would come form this arc. But, also, you're one to talk mister secret-wife/I-once-slaughtered-an-entire-tribe, heh? He concludes by telling Obi-Wan that maybe HE doesn't know the whole truth, easier. Later, Obi-Wan is looking over holograms of Theed while waiting to get his old face back. Windu can sense something is bothering him (but not that the two guards standing next to him are of the wrong species, apparently). Anakin's last remark is bothering him and he decides to check one last thing before leaving. Adn that's the case the rifle Bane gave him came in. He finds a communication device in it and realizes Dooku listened in to him warning Windu!

Cut to the Palace at night, PAlpatine is planning to leave as soon as dinner is done. He "assumes" the plan to disguise Obi-wan was Anakin's idea. It wasn't? Oh, and Palpatine always thought the Jedi worked as a team... tsk, tsk, tsk. Aaaaaand Dooku is waiting for them in the dinner room. Dooku and Anakin exchanges the standard threats. Anakin destroys a couple magnaguards, but a third one captures the chancellor while he's off fighting the Sith Lord (the other one). Dooku fights defensively and starts lobbing random stuff at Anakin, eventually resorting to using ana rmchair as an impromptu shield (it's stopping a lightsaber thrust! What's it made of?). While Sidious starts smirking (hey, the droid did let him go when he said "unhand me!") The fight progresses to the corridors, where Skywalker gets dooku on his back and (regular-)strangling him with his metal hand, while scary music starts playing, because throttling is so much more evilthan hacking and slashing. Dooku fries him and stands back up. Obi-wan gets there. Anakin jumps inside Dooku's ship just as he's about to take off with the Chancellor. While the count is occupied, Obi-wan gets Palpatine back to the ground. Dooku throws Anakin off his ship and compliments Obi-wan, calling him a worthy adversary, but denies that title to Anakin.

Padmé and some Naboo Guards get there. Palpatine thanks the Jedi and congratulates them on their heroics "We specialize in heroics, Chancellor", well that's truer than what you'll say in RotS, Ben. Anakin vows that no harm will ever come to Palpatine as long as he leaves. Hey, that's a promise he upheld! With a 0.0005% margin of error. Palpatine "shudders tot hink where the Galaxy would be without the Jedi." Cute. End of the episode.

Spoiler: My thoughts

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Well it was better than the Box, and I have to admit Dooku's attack did surprise me, despite it being foreshadowed early on.

So, that was the grand plan, heh? The switecherhoo hardly seemed necessary and they were lucky that the inexplicable explosion knocked their target unconscious so they didn't need the stunning shot. Why did the box have a room full of deadly gaz and one full of lightsabers-like things on moving plates? That didn't match anything there! Also, did Dooku take out the waiting staff and the guest of that banquet, or did Palps lie to Anakin to get there? Because one would be kind of hilarious and the second kind of foolhardy. (I know this was just to emulate Vader's msot awkward lunch ever at Cloud City.)

There doesn't seem to be a payoff to Obi-Wan and Cad Bane's relationship. Bane's seeming newfound respect for him didn't matter and he didn't "keep an eye on him" like he said he would at the beginning of the episode.

Points for Anakin's growing resentment of the Jedi Order/Council, with Palpatine subtly egging him on.

I like Anakin and Dooku's fight. The last one was very much one-sided in Dooku's favour (even if Ani got a few punches in), this one has Anakin dominating most of the fight (even if Dooku is only really trying to leave), showcasing Anakin's growing power. It's very nicely done. Still, when Anakin tells Dooku in RotS that his pwoers have doubled since their last fight, this becoming an ever-shrinking timeframe.

Next up: Massacre. Sounds spicy.

[Fyraltari]

Season 4, Episode 19: Massacre

Spoiler: Recap

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Ventress lands on Dathomir, greeted by five identical Nightsisters wielding laser-bows. She goes to Mother Talzin, who hugs her, and says she's been in hiding "re-evaluating". Cool, care to tell us what hindsight you came up with after an entire season's worth of pondering? Seriously, I checked, all of this season took place between this arc and last season's finale. Where has she been!? Ventress says she has nothing left, but Talzin says she's welcome to give up the ways of the Sith and return to the Sisterhood. ISn't that what happened last time, though? Talzin says she shall fullfill her destiny, be loyal to no-one but her sisters and herself and shall no longer be ordered around. Ventress fails to realize that Talzin's litlle speech there consisted almost entirely of ordering her to do stuff.

Meanwhile, Grievous is summoned on Serenno by Dooku. It's time to take revenge on Ventress and Talzin as the count has learned that his former apprentice is back on Dathomir. How the **** did he figure that out? Dooku orders Grievous to wipe all the witches out ; he also says their illusions do not frighten him. Sure chief, that's why you're sending not this loser to do the work and instead are going there yourself, right? Grievous leaves with a pretty impressive fleet by the standards of this show.

On Dathomir, Ventress is... baptized? inot the Nightsister's order by bathing in a black oily substance while pledging herself entirely to "the sisters, the magicks and the Old Ways" whatever those ways are. The ceremony involves her being surrounded by the same green mist as with Savage, but it doesn't go inside her and she doesn't enflate, so I guess it's different even though her eyes roll backward and there's the same bell-like sound. Talzin calls for a party. Said party consistes of sitting around a campfire while a couple sisters dance to inaudible music (drugs? I'm guessing drugs). One sister says she's privileged to be Assajj's sister. Why? You've just met her. The party is cut short by the arrival of the droid army who starts bombing them. They do so without even trying to collapse their temple, mind, so they just announced their presence and wasted the element of surprise. Grievous is a tool, is what I'm getting at.

Grievous lands on a nearby clearing and sends his troops ahead while he stays in his command ship. Talzin organizes the denfenses while ventress laments that "so many are going to die" because of her. Talzin says there's no time to regret instead of pointing out that they're mostly there because of her, not Ventress. Ventress can tell Grievous is leading the attack. Another bombing run makes one pillar of the temple crumble on the Nightsister who said a sentence to Ventress that one time. She tells her to lead them to victory. The droids porper arrive and the battle begins. Talzin floats up, summons a shield around her and starts throwing green lightning at them. Does that mean that if you got Talzin, the Son and Palpatine to work to gether they could make lightning of any color? Also her lightning immediately goes from attacking one target to another, which, while a correct depiction of electrical arcs (at least better than usual), feels wrong in Star Wars. It looks like a tower defense game. If Ventress can hold out a little longer she can build a second Talzin closer to the droids spawn point!

Ventress tell Talzin they'll need an army, and she replies she can get one from "Old Daka", Ah yes, More Dakka is always good. Ventress leads her Sister ut of cover into a charge against the assault-rifle wielding enemy that doesn't end in a complete slaughter only because the B1s are SW's worst shots in all eras. The sisters with bows do get on treetop to have the advantage of high ground while the others engage in mêlée and oblitarate their opponents. informed of Ventress's whereabouts, grievous deploys the "defoliator tanks". Are they re-using a previous Separatist weapon? Is that legal?

Meanwhile, Talzin goes back to the temple, orders her attendants to bring her a "small metallic sphere" from her chambers in the "Hidden Cave" then proceeds to magically open a path through a wall (that closes behind her) and enters said cave. Inside is Daka, the oldest and wisest of them, surrounded by statues of her own face. Does she like, live there all alone? What the hell? Talzin beseeches her to raise an undead army to help them defend. She starts chanting in front of an orb that starts emitting the usual green mist. It goes through the (illusory) wall into the surrounding forest and penetrates the weird, huge "fruits" that hang from the trees. These pods don't actually contain fruits but mummified Nightsisters who spring into action with a cheesy scream. Back at the battle, the droids fire the defoliator at the Sisters who, as far as I can tell, haven't suffered a single casualty since the battle proper began. It's significantly less powerful than I remember, only creating a localized explosion that takes out one unlucky Nightsister. The Nightzombies get there and starts just swatting away the droids like flies. Ventress takes over a tank and uses it to destroy the defoliator.

Daka reports Ventress's progress to Talzin, just as her attendants bring her the sphere she ordered. She disintegrates it to reveal a big lock of white hair inside. Dooku's hair. She drops it inside a cauldron of green mist that I guess was already there for some reason and it morphs into a statuette of Dooku. She starts melting the statuette's face and the real Dooku on Serenno starts groaning in pain as huge warts appear on his face. He immediately clocks it as the witche's doing. Bitch you could do that THE ENTIRE TIME?! What was the point of using Savage as a mole! You could have killed him any time you wanted! What the hell!? Ventress's army powers through Grievous's almost unopposed (she even does a crowd run) until she meets face to face with the cyborg general. Ventress challenges him to single combat: if she wins his army leaves, if he wins, the Nightsister surrenders. Girl, you're winning why are you taking this risks. He accepts, boasting that he's always been a better warrior than her. Bitch, you lost to the Gungans!

The fight goes on for a little while until Ventress cuts off two of the general's hands and throws him to the ground. He orders his droids to kill her, but she survives despite being fired on from multiple angles. The battle starts again. Ventress is hit on the shoulder, but Grievous can't finish her off because he's swarmed by some Nightzombies. A random Nightsister helps Ventress get away but she's shot dead. She tells Ventress to run away as "Doom is upon [them]". Is it? It looks like you're winning. Ventress runs for the hills. Grievous shakes off his attackers (apparently they're the kind of zombies that die again when you hurt them). Meanwhile Talzin starts telepathically taunting Dooku, who calls Grievous and tells him to kill Talzin before he dies and that he should follow the green mist since that's the witches' magic. I think that last tidbit should have been in the mission breifing, Count. Grievous, taking his sweet time, orders his troops to follow him to their new target. Wasn't Mother Talzin always their target?

Dooku's chest erupts in green mist that takes the shape of Talzin. She tells him to order his troops to retreat but he refuses (his eyes noticeably yellow), so she intensifies the torture. Gotta hand it to the episode, that's a creepy exchanges and dooku continues to be the most badass character in the show. Despite resistance by the nightsisters, Grievous enters the temple, blasts the (fake?) wall away and stabs Daka. All the zombies die again as the droids slaughter the remaining Nightsisters. Grievous hacks aways at Talzin but she turns into mist and flies away. On Serenno, Dooku vomits some green mist and his warts vanish.

In the forest, Ventress collapses and is joined by Talzin in mist-form. Talzin says their destinies are linked but she must follow her own past and she vanishes as Ventress begs her not to leave her. This isn't going to help her abandonment issues, is it?

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

well, this isn't a great episode. I don't really care about the Nightsisters, some the episode didn't get any pathos from me by killing them. Especially since we didn't actually know any of them. The Nightborthers are going to be more free than they were in a long time and, assuming the youngest Sisters survived to be adopted, they might even keep their civilisation going.

I don't understand why thei episode did not start with ventress already living among the Sisters since the end of season 3. It would not have changed anything of note, but made the beginning make more sense. Seriously, where was she?

Talzin is really starting to get on my nerves. Why does she want Dooku dead? why did she not do it yet shen she obviously could all this time? How many more powers is she going to pull out of her ass. Is she immortal or what? Why is she helping both Ventress and Savage who are at odds with one another? The more she appears, the less she feels like a character and the more like a do-anything plot device.

I liked the zombies even less than last time. their only real purpose was to provide Grievous a trail to Talzin.

Speaking of which, he really can't have a clean win, can he? He was losing the battle until he arbitrarily didn't and straight up lost he duel with Ventress. He really has no threatening presence anymore (unless he ends up fighting Padmé or a civilian). His fight with her also would have had much more impact if they'd had an actual relationship until then. Before this they only shared one scene on Kamino where she weirdly flirted with him.

Ideally the two should have been shown working together as (bitter?) rivals during the prvious seasons, he would have been winning the battle until Ventress suggested the duel as a desperate move, that he'd accept out of pride. Then he'd have beaten her, concluding their rivalry and giving him back some credibility, forcing her to flee.

Edit: Also, looks like ventress is all out of authority figures to make decisions for her. In a way, she's finally free, even if even that freedom did not come from her actions or of her own volition.

Next up: Bounty. By the name it sounds like we'll be checking up on Boba and/or Aurra Sing. Weird, I'd have asusmed we be seeing Savage seek Maul, then one episode of Maul attacking the Jedi and him being beaten as the season finale.

[pendell]

So who's the protaganist here? Ventress? I thought she was a Sith. So is this an intramural dark side competition between Dooku and the Nightsisters, in which the Republic is not involved? Why should I be invested in this episode? Doesn't seem like anyone to root for.

I'm still not following how the nightsisters lost, exactly? Why didn't they just kill dooku outright? Between being able to animate an undead legion and throw lightning, it seemed like they had this episode in the bag until suddenly, they didn't.

I can't recall Palpatine as a Necromancer. So why aren't the nightsisters the Big Bads in the galaxy? They seem more powerful than he.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

So who's the protaganist here? Ventress? I thought she was a Sith. So is this an intramural dark side competition between Dooku and the Nightsisters, in which the Republic is not involved? Why should I be invested in this episode? Doesn't seem like anyone to root for.

Ventress was a would-be Sith Apprentice before Palpatine figured it out and ordered Dooku to kill her.

However,

Spoiler

Show

she gets less and less villainous over time - frequently ending up allied with the protagonists.

"Villain Journey to Anti-Hero" so to speak.

[Fyraltari]

So who's the protaganist here? Ventress?

Yes.

I thought she was a Sith.

Was.

So is this an intramural dark side competition between Dooku and the Nightsisters, in which the Republic is not involved?

While villainous, the Nightsisters don't seem to be affiliated with the Dark Side in this continuity. That's their one good element of worldbuilding so far.

Why should I be invested in this episode? Doesn't seem like anyone to root for.

Villainous protagonists can be done right. This isn't an example of that, but it's no the concept's fault. If ssaj's relationship with anybody here had been more fleshed out, it could have made for a good episode. Still should lose the zombies, though.

I'm still not following how the nightsisters lost, exactly? Why didn't they just kill dooku outright? Between being able to animate an undead legion and throw lightning, it seemed like they had this episode in the bag until suddenly, they didn't.

Ran out of plot armour.

I can't recall Palpatine as a Necromancer. So why aren't the nightsisters the Big Bads in the galaxy? They seem more powerful than he.

Pretty sure Sith necromancy is a thing in both E.U.

[Grim Portent]

The Nightsister's powers are a variation of the Dark Side of the Force, just a very different style from that practised by the Sith.

It's more ritualistic and sorcerous, having more in common with Sith Alchemy than with conventional force powers, but it is still rooted in the Force.

[Fyraltari]

The Nightsister's powers are a variation of the Dark Side of the Force, just a very different style from that practised by the Sith.

It's more ritualistic and sorcerous, having more in common with Sith Alchemy than with conventional force powers, but it is still rooted in the Force.

Are you sure that's not just the Legends continuity? The Nightsisters who went to serenno with ventress seemed unable to sense Dooku when she could.

[Keltest]

Are you sure that's not just the Legends continuity? The Nightsisters who went to serenno with ventress seemed unable to sense Dooku when she could.

At least a few works in the current canon indicate that Dathomiri witch magic is something that can nominally be learned and used by other force users, except for the fact that the Nightsisters really, really dont want to share.

[Mechalich]

At least a few works in the current canon indicate that Dathomiri witch magic is something that can nominally be learned and used by other force users, except for the fact that the Nightsisters really, really dont want to share.

It's also that it is generally very difficult to adopt an entirely different belief system. The different approaches to learning how to use the Force aren't just different meditation and breathing techniques, they're whole religious paradigms and it's very challenging to accept, absorb, and integrate different faiths while not getting tripped up by unconscious biases.

There is also the very strong justification for small Force traditions with unique techniques to hoard their knowledge in order to maintain exclusivity with regard to certain capabilities that means other, more powerful, factions will always need them. In fact, a big part of what happens in Massacre is that Dooku decides he no longer needs the capabilities Talzin and the Nightsisters can provide and decides its extermination time (the episode admittedly doesn't effectively portray Nightsister casualties, but their off-screen losses are massive).

I can't recall Palpatine as a Necromancer. So why aren't the nightsisters the Big Bads in the galaxy? They seem more powerful than he.

Palpatine actually gets up to all kinds of Sith Alchemy, but it's mostly in Legends (there's hints of it in the Disney canon, such as his fascination with the Zillo Beast). And of course, he does canonically resurrect himself from the dead in both continuities and in the Disney canon makes extremely powerful distorted clones of himself.

As to the power of the Nightsisters, well there's a couple of things. First, the group is ethnically derived. You have to be a Dathomirian to become a Nightsister, and while the Force sensitivity frequency of this group is extremely high, their absolute numbers are quite small - the population of Dathomir is listed in single-digit thousands in both versions of canon. So there's simply no way for the group to expand to the kind of numbers necessary to dominate the galaxy.

Second, and actually more important, rulership is not what the Nightsisters want. It's simply not part of their ideology. This is a critical thing about the Jedi & Sith. The Jedi believe it is their mission to protect and defend the galaxy. The Sith, the dark side of the same coin, believe it is their mission to dominate and enslave it. other Force Traditions have less cosmic goals and as a result their dark halves - and basically every force tradition has some dark members - have less brutal ambitions. The Nightsisters, mostly seem to want money and respect, which they get by serving as terrifying mercenaries. Galactic conquest doesn't interest them.

[Grim Portent]

Are you sure that's not just the Legends continuity? The Nightsisters who went to serenno with ventress seemed unable to sense Dooku when she could.

My understanding is that because they tap into the force in such an unusual way even when a Nightsister is force sensitive she may not have access to what we would consider basic force abilities because they never learn them.

The green mist they use in their magick is called ichor, and it's a phenomenon that might be unique to Dathomir, but it's basically a physical manifestation of the dark side of the force which Dathomir is soaked with. While it never gets explained much in the show it has been explored a bit in other material.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, but that's the point: If they tap into the Force differently, then it's not the Dark Side of the Force. It's a different aspect of the Force.

[Grim Portent]

It's still the Dark Side, it's just not drawn on and used the way Sith and Jedi are familiar with. The Sith don't have a monopoly on the dark side of the Force.

It's a different force tradition, but it's still a dark side force tradition like the Sith practices are, much like how there are light side traditions that are distinct from the Jedi ways.

[Fyraltari]

It's still the Dark Side, it's just not drawn on and used the way Sith and Jedi are familiar with. The Sith don't have a monopoly on the dark side of the Force.

It's a different force tradition, but it's still a dark side force tradition like the Sith practices are, much like how there are light side traditions that are distinct from the Jedi ways.

Meh, I much prefer the idea that the Light/Dark Side dichotomy is a Jedi (and therefore Sith) concept and the other people who draw on the Force (and have a different name for it) don't fall along those lines.

[Keltest]

Meh, I much prefer the idea that the Light/Dark Side dichotomy is a Jedi (and therefore Sith) concept and the other people who draw on the Force (and have a different name for it) don't fall along those lines.

Selfishness and malice are hardly unique to the Sith or Jedi though, and the Dark Side becomes both a non-threat and completely inexplicable if other force traditions can tap into it without the danger of corruption just because they dont call it out as being explicitly bad.

[Fyraltari]

Selfishness and malice are hardly unique to the Sith or Jedi though, and the Dark Side becomes both a non-threat and completely inexplicable if other force traditions can tap into it without the danger of corruption just because they dont call it out as being explicitly bad.

The idea isn't that they tap into it, though. They tap into something different in the Force.

[Grim Portent]

An interesting quirk of the Nightsisters magick is that it only draws on the Dark Side, it is incapable of being used in a 'Light Side' manner, because it is based around the use of a literal physical manifestation of the Dark Side.

As far as Dathomir is concerned the Light Side is completely irrelevant, there is only the Dark.

Exactly how ichor itself formed and how Dathomir came to be so steeped in darkness is unexplained to my knowledge, but it is a place that was able to birth and sustain a tradition of Dark Side practitioners alien to the 'normal' practices of the Jedi and Sith. There are only a few planets like that in the whole Galaxy, some Light and some Dark, some in the middle.

[Peelee]

Meh, I much prefer the idea that the Light/Dark Side dichotomy is a Jedi (and therefore Sith) concept and the other people who draw on the Force (and have a different name for it) don't fall along those lines.

I agree so much. Other Force traditions that don't constrain themselves by getting pigeonholed into Jedi/Sith religion and philosophies makes for a much better universe with much better stories.

[Fyraltari]

I agree so much. Other Force traditions that don't constrain themselves by getting pigeonholed into Jedi/Sith religion and philosophies makes for a much better universe with much better stories.

I don't know about better stories, but it makes for a bigger and more colourful universe for sure.

[Mechalich]

That the Force has two sides is a fundamental property of its existence, not a philosophical opinion by the Jedi or any other Force tradition. Its dualistic nature is quite logical, actually, given the dualistic structure of many other physical forces, such as electromagnetism (ie. positive and negative charge). The light side is enthalpic, and the dark side is entropic, making them fundamentally opposed on a basic physics level (note the existence of the Force allows for the violation of the conservation of energy, which is necessary for certain things in Star Wars to work).

Now, the point where this stops being fantastical physics and starts being in-universe philosophy is that the Jedi and Sith equate the light side (or Ashla) with good and the dark side (or Bogan) with evil. That's an act of labeling imposed by sapient beings, not anything intrinsic to the Force itself.

[Peelee]

That the Force has two sides is a fundamental property of its existence, not a philosophical opinion by the Jedi or any other Force tradition.

.... No? Light Side users do not repel dark side users. There is nothing to suggest it is polar except for Jedi or Sith philosophy. You could just as easily have compared it to gravitational fields, which have no polarity, but that wouldn't have been good for your argument like electromagnetic fields are.

Hell, let's go see what Wookieepedia has to say about it:

the Force was viewed in many different aspects, including, but not limited to, the Light side of the Force, the Dark side of the Force, the Living Force, the Unifying Force, the Cosmic Force and the Physical Force. The first two aspects were concerned with the moral compass of the Force, as manifested by the conduct and emotions of living creatures who were themselves part of the fabric of the Force. The light side of the Force was the facet aligned with compassion, selflessness, self-knowledge and enlightenment, healing, mercy and benevolence, while the dark side of the Force was aligned with hatred, fear, covetousness, anger, aggression, jealousy and malevolence.

That doesnt speak of anu inherent physical polarity. That speaks of a socially constructed moral polarity.

[Keltest]

.... No? Light Side users do not repel dark side users.

Don't they? We've seen Light Side users who are strongly in tune with the force feel physical sensation when extreme Dark Side acts occur (ie Alderaan), and Yoda was able to repell Force Lightning, one of the ultimate Dark Side techniques. I understand you were being somewhat facetious here, but the two sides do seem to be able to affect each other in a way we have not seen two users of the same type of force do.

[Fyraltari]

That the Force has two sides is a fundamental property of its existence, not a philosophical opinion by the Jedi or any other Force tradition.

...
According to the Jedi...

The light side is enthalpic, and the dark side is entropic, making them fundamentally opposed on a basic physics level

First, source.
Second, since when is enthalpy the opposite of entropy?

Its dualistic nature is quite logical, actually, given the dualistic structure of many other physical forces, such as electromagnetism (ie. positive and negative charge).

And, that's the core of the issue: the Force is not a materialistic thing. It is mystical, supernatural in nature. Reducing it to something that can be constricted within definitions and mechanical, deterministic behaviours is doing it a disservice, at least in my opinion.

It should be explicitly an unsolvable mystery, forever beyond the reach of comprehension, something that can only be approached and studied, but never fully understood.

[Peelee]

Don't they? We've seen Light Side users who are strongly in tune with the force feel physical sensation when extreme Dark Side acts occur (ie Alderaan), and Yoda was able to repell Force Lightning, one of the ultimate Dark Side techniques. I understand you were being somewhat facetious here, but the two sides do seem to be able to affect each other in a way we have not seen two users of the same type of force do.

Any trained force user would feel physical sensation when billions of lives are suddenly and drastically altered, based off what we're told about the Force in the very first movie. The Force wasn't even a factor in destroying Alderaan! Are you claiming now that literally any act regardless is aligned with either the light side or dark side of the Force?

Further, a lightsaber can repel Force Lightning. As with the first example, there is no indication of anything light side or dark side about this other than your own insistence that there is.

ETA: Also, everything Fyraltari said.

[Keltest]

Any trained force user would feel physical sensation when billions of lives are suddenly and drastically altered, based off what we're told about the Force in the very first movie. The Force wasn't even a factor in destroying Alderaan! Are you claiming now that literally any act regardless is aligned with either the light side or dark side of the Force?

Yes. Thats kind of one of the fundamental aspects of the Force. The whole point of that scene was to establish that the destruction of a planet was an act that resonated in the Force.

Further, a lightsaber can repel Force Lightning. As with the first example, there is no indication of anything light side or dark side about this other than your own insistence that there is.

A lightsaber blocks Force Lightning, the same as any other solid (more or less) object. Yoda actively contains and then repels the lightning back at its source, without any physical barrier.