Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Keltest]

Err, the shows is pretty clear that Rash is the one who joined with the CIS. Dendup says he refused to pick a side

Err... Onderon was, according to Wookieepedia, one of the original systems that broke away as part of the CIS at the start of the war. They had a senator on the Separatist senate. There was a whole plot around that, remember?

[Fyraltari]

Err... Onderon was, according to Wookieepedia, one of the original systems that broke away as part of the CIS at the start of the war. They had a senator on the Separatist senate. There was a whole plot around that, remember?

Yup. I do member. This doesn't stop this episode from having Steela say Rash sold out Onderon to the Separatists for the crown and Dendup saying he chose neither the Republic nor Confederacy when he had the choice. Likewise in the first episode of this arc, when Kenobi says the Onderonian king willingly joined the CIS, Saw argues that Rash is illegitimate so that doesn't count. The arc has been pretty consistant on this point. You are right that this is not what Lux's introductory episode implies.

The only way I can make some sense of this whole mess is this:
A)The Neutral systems are consistuent systems of the Republic who haven't joined the CIS but have refused to support the Republic's war effort, which I guess is legal and not treason somehow?
B)King Dendup, not being a fan of the Republic but not liking the CIS either initially put Onderon in this category. Presumably over the objections of the Bontaris who are CIS sympathisans.
C)Dooku sponsors a coup placing his puppet Rash on the throne, on the condition that Rash commits Onderon to the CIS. Which he does.
D)A pro-Dendup, anti-CIS, vaguely pro-Republic resistance movement is founded and lead by the Guerrera siblings.
E)Mina Bonteri is assassinated by Dooku.
F)Lux joins the resistance.

If this is correct, one may wonder what Mina thought of Rash and his rule.

[Keltest]

A plot hole? In my Star Wars media? Its more likely than you think.

Frankly, the old EU in particular never seems to be able to decide what senators actually do in the old Republic. Sometimes they actually lead the planets and are responsible for some measure of policy making (such as membership in the CIS or Republic, apparently), other times they simply represent their interests like, you know, a senator.

In this case, they made the mistake of assigning that power and responsibility to two different people on the same planet.


Its also possible that Saw simply doesnt understand how Onderon actually joined the CIS. Its not like he was exactly talking to Lux at that point.

[Fyraltari]

That's not even a plot hole, just very shoddy worldbuilding.

[Grim Portent]

I do wonder how exactly Rash is supposed to have come into power. No one ever really outright says he stormed the palace with a bunch of CIS droids, and the army seems to consider him legitimate, so that implies he applied some sort of soft pressure to make Dendub step down and become king in his place, but that doesn't seem to fit with anything we get told either.

I'm also not sure why Dendub talks about the will of the people so much, he is/was a king, and not an elected one like the Naboo have, nor seemingly one which shares power with a parliament. Rash seems to be an absolute ruler with broad military and judicial powers, and Dendub was presumably one too, just less of an ******* about it and inclined to stay out of things.



Senators seem to have non-senatorial duties determined by their homeworld, some are appointed, some elected and some are the rulers of their worlds. I think it's basically;

Republic: We've decided to let you into the Senate, send someone to speak on your behalf and we'll call them a senator.

Constituent world: Alright, are there any rules on who we should send?

Republic: Not really, no.

This does not lend itself to consistent portayal of senators across various bits of media.

[Keltest]

That's not even a plot hole, just very shoddy worldbuilding.

I'd say its a plot hole. If the senator is the one who decided, then why does the King matter here? If it was the king, then why did the senator join the CIS senate when they split off, against the king's wishes?

[Fyraltari]

I'm also not sure why Dendub talks about the will of the people so much, he is/was a king, and not an elected one like the Naboo have, nor seemingly one which shares power with a parliament. Rash seems to be an absolute ruler with broad military and judicial powers, and Dendub was presumably one too, just less of an ******* about it and inclined to stay out of things.

For one Dendup says the king has to "follow, bend or break" the will of the people, so he's still pretty authoritarian.
For two, all political power ultimately exists because the people wills it into being. Absolute rulers are not actually all-powerful and need to keep the people just happy enough to accept their rule. It doesn't matter how many droids Rash has, if the entire city turns against him, then he's no longer king of anything.

I'd say its a plot hole. If the senator is the one who decided, then why does the King matter here? If it was the king, then why did the senator join the CIS senate when they split off, against the king's wishes?

I don't remember if it's said that Mina joined the CIS from day one. It's possible Dendup remaining king until, like two weeks into the war and Padmé is glossing over the time Mina represented Onderon has a neutral world.

[Keltest]

I don't remember if it's said that Mina joined the CIS from day one. It's possible Dendup remaining king until, like two weeks into the war and Padmé is glossing over the time Mina represented Onderon has a neutral world.

According, again, to Wookieepedia, she was one of the original senator members of Dooku's conspiracy to form the CIS before the Clone Wars started. Dooku convinced her it was an altruistic movement.

[Thrudd]

That's not even a plot hole, just very shoddy worldbuilding.

Yes. That is Star Wars in a nutshell. All aesthetics and nostalgia, very little substance in the setting. Worldbuilding occurs mostly to facilitate whatever visual/action sequence is desired and to facilitate plot. Filoni makes an effort sometimes, but at the end of the day I think he's firmly a supporter of Lucas' vision for the franchise. Which is to say, it's about individual stories of action, heroism, magic and war, often following tropes drawn from other media featuring these elements, that take place within a loosely defined space fantasy environment. At least, this seems to be how the series has been treated by its creator and the people who inherited it from him.

[Mechalich]

For one Dendup says the king has to "follow, bend or break" the will of the people, so he's still pretty authoritarian.
For two, all political power ultimately exists because the people wills it into being. Absolute rulers are not actually all-powerful and need to keep the people just happy enough to accept their rule. It doesn't matter how many droids Rash has, if the entire city turns against him, then he's no longer king of anything.

Well, if Rash were to have his droids slaughter everyone in the city, he'd still be king of its droids, which represents a very large percentage of the city's overall economic output - depending on how industrialized Iziz happens to be it could be almost 100% of it. Automation breaks the traditional 'I need the people to actually do the work to make the country run' limit on absolute power. There are a number of examples in Star Wars that make it clear that a society can farm out all economic output to droids if they really want to (and indeed that droids can run their own fully functional societies without organic oversight), though this is rare for some reason, possibly because it takes very large amounts of capital and time to set up.

One thing about Star Wars monarchy though: in many of the places where it operates, a surprisingly large chunk of the galaxy including supposedly enlightened Core Worlds, it has operated for an absurdly long time. The Onderonian monarchy, according to Legends lore that inspired this arc, is five thousand years old. The people of Onderon have never known anything else and so the idea of completely getting rid of the monarchy is completely outside their Overton Window of governance options. The rebel operatives can seek to overthrow Rash, but they have to replace him with someone. Dendup is the most obvious and most clearly legitimate option (and it's easy for the audience to understand rather than introducing some distant cousin or something), but at the end of the day there will be a king. Transforming the planet into a democracy simply isn't in the cards.

I don't remember if it's said that Mina joined the CIS from day one. It's possible Dendup remaining king until, like two weeks into the war and Padmé is glossing over the time Mina represented Onderon has a neutral world.

It's also possible for Mina to have supported the Senate without Dendup's full approval or even knowledge. The interaction between Senators dispatched to Coruscant and the leadership of the planetary governments they represent is not necessarily straightforward. For example, if Dendup simply appoints the Senator for Onderon for a 10-year term, it's entirely possible for her to change her mind in the middle and depending on how the laws are written he might not actually possess the power to recall her.

A)The Neutral systems are consistuent systems of the Republic who haven't joined the CIS but have refused to support the Republic's war effort, which I guess is legal and not treason somehow?

At the start of the Clone Wars the Republic had an extremely limited array of tools to compel members worlds to take core economic actions. It was closer to a customs union than an actual state. It could level various trade duties (this is what triggers the events of TPM), make rules and regulations regarding various industries - including things like how many weapons you were allowed to put on a starship though this was regularly flouted, and controlled the HoloNet, but it had few other powers. It could not, for example, simply impose massive wartime taxation on its constituent worlds to pay for war. The neutral systems appear to represent worlds that chose not to contribute to the war economy through non-compulsory means. For example, bond sales. In the absence of taxation the Republic could raise war funds by selling ungodly massive amounts of war bonds and the governments of member worlds like Alderaan could buy them with the expectation that they'd never actually be paid back (or that inflation would obliterate their value by the time that they were, something that often happens with war debt).

As the Clone Wars progressed, of course, this strategy lost viability. The political influence of the neutrals, which allowed them to vote down things like war tax bills, was systematically crushed and Palpatine was voted various extraordinary powers that allowed him to simply bypass the Senate entirely - the very next arc, actually, is precisely about this.

Yes. That is Star Wars in a nutshell. All aesthetics and nostalgia, very little substance in the setting. Worldbuilding occurs mostly to facilitate whatever visual/action sequence is desired and to facilitate plot. Filoni makes an effort sometimes, but at the end of the day I think he's firmly a supporter of Lucas' vision for the franchise. Which is to say, it's about individual stories of action, heroism, magic and war, often following tropes drawn from other media featuring these elements, that take place within a loosely defined space fantasy environment. At least, this seems to be how the series has been treated by its creator and the people who inherited it from him.

This is a little unfair. There is substance to the setting, but it's weird and unwieldy. Galactic scale is huge and functionally impossible to manage - even in universe, which is why the Clone Wars even happens. 22-minute TV episodes aimed squarely at a young audience are also not exactly a good place for exposition heavy sequences. There's actually, proportionally, a lot more worldbuilding in TCW than many other Star Wars properties, and Filoni clearly makes an effort to draw on the better class of worldbuilding from Legends while working around most of the dreck. Individual pieces of the setting often get a fair amount of substance - for example there's a through-line about Ryloth and Twi'lek culture that flows through TCW and Rebels - but the galaxy as a whole is so wide that it's impossible to plumb with any depth.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry this one took a long time, for some reason the site I'm watching these on uploaded episode 4 twice. Anyway...

Season 5, episode 5: Tipping Point

Spoiler: Recap

Show

Dendup's first name is Ramses? Seriously? Ahsoka places another holoprojector on the marketplace that projects an image of Dendup who denounces the Separatists' grip on the planet and officially throws his support behind the resistance. As he speaks, Ahsoka flies away on oen of Onderon's winged beasts, flown by Lux. As the king's speech ends, several Izzizzians attack a patrol of B1s.

The new rebel base is hidden in a rocky formation, in another abandonned temple thing. Lux reports the little riot they've seen to Saw and Steela nad they start disagreeing about their next move. Saw wants to strike at Izziz directly, at the heart of Rash's power, but Steela and Lux are worried about collateral victims. Dendup agrees with them and names Steela commanding general of the army, placing general Tendon under her. As everybody leaves, Steela snogs Lux to heel and back. Ahsoka takes it in stride and fist bumps his shoulder.

At the royal palace Rash is getting increasingly worried, he wants his opposants dead before the people fully commit to them. Luckily for them, they have found the rebel base and Kalami dispatches four flying helicopter-like droids as well as a more normal army of droids to the mountains to deal with it. Why isn't he coming with, though? Isn't that the whole reason he's there?

The Onderonian march out to meet the droids in battle and dominate them thanks to the air superiority their tamed dragons grant them. That and a well-placed machine-gun nest. Unfortunately, the four flying droids get there and start slaughtering the air-force as well as the machine-gun. And these droids have shields too powerful for conventional arms to penetrate. Luckily, they can't aim for **** when shooting at main characters from one meter away, so everybody with a name survives. Saw, who was leading the air force, tries to fight a flywing droid one-on-one and is shot down, but rescued by tendon whose ground force are in full retreat.

Ahsoka phones Skywalker and Kenobi to ask for reinforcements from the Council. Obi-Wan says the Council won't be involved in a internal affair. The hell!? the Onderonian army, lead by the Onderonian king is fighting a fully CIS force, how is that an internal affair? Is it just because Rash is still alive? I knew they should have shot him last episode. Ahsoka explains about the Separatists gunships (are they still ships if there's no-one inside?) and their shields. Obi-Wan tells her that if the Onderonian's failure is certain, she should evacuate whoever she can and come back to Coruscant. Cold. They end the communication. Anakin is pretty upset at the idea of leaving the rebels to hang especially since the separatists already know they're involved. Obi-Wan says that sending in Republic troops would defeat their purpose. I'm sorry, I didn't catch that, can you repeat, General Kenobi? Anakin says they don't have to look like they're the ones helping. They could involve a third party.
Kenobi: Who in the galaxy would be running around with an extra batch of misssiles?
Me: Don't say Hondo.
Anakin: *Pauses*
Me: Don't say Hondo.
Anakin: Hondo.
Me: Ah, Sithspit!

Back on Onderon Ahsoka explains to Steela and Lux that until Rash is no longer king of Onderon, the republic can't help. Really should have shot him last episode. Also, bull****! The Rebels leave the battlefield and head to base. Meanwhile, Skywalker lands on Florum. Hondo's base looks intact, so I guess this is set before the first episode of the season. The pirates point various weapons at the Jedi, including a slingshot. Damn, I guess Ezra was using actual dangerous armaments back in the beginning of Rebels! Anakin tells Hondo he wants to hire him to make an illegal delivery of missiles to Onderon. Wait, they're really just sending arms, not hiring his crew as mercenaries? Why can't they dleiver the weapons themselves, then? that would be significantly less help than what they gave in the first episode of this arc! Also Hondo needles Anakin about doing illegal business. But he ain't going to refuse money (as long as it's not Republic credits). Also, he calls Anakin a Master Jedi.

The rebels have a little reprieve while the droids are navigating the mountainous terrain, so Steela organizes their defense. Saw congratulates her on her leadership, admitting that she's a better leader than he would have been. Ahsoka explains again that th Jedi won't help them more, so Lux storms off. Steela appreciates all she's already doing, though. Then Hondo's ship lands. They're wary of him (How does Lux knows he's a pirate, I don't think they've met?), but he quickly explains why he's here and gives them two creates full of rocket launchers and their ammo. the latest from Siennar! Surprisingly, he doesn't try to make them pay for them. Then they get shot at and Hondo suddenly remembers he has places to be. Okay, that as funny, especially the way his crew and him casually stroll in the middle of the firefight. This was simply an advanced scouting party, not the main force, so they're easily pushed back, but now the Seppies will know about the launchers.

Lux, Steela and Ahsoka bring the launchers to the frontlines and Saw immediately grabs one and uses it to blast a gunship out of the sky. And there was much rejoicing. However, the main attack turns out to be a distraction, one of the gunships, with a couple commando droids standing on it are attacking the base directly, making a beeline for the king. Steela, Lux and Ahsoka immediately head back there. steela manages to shoot down the gunship (on her second try) but the commandos are pursuing the king. Dendup is cornered near a cliff, but the Rebels manages to destroy the droids before he's shot. Back at the battle. Saw and crew shoot down the last two gunships, but one of them spirals out of control and ends up crashing near Steela and Dendup. This fragilizes the ridge they're standing on and Steela ends up hanging from dear life by the tips of her fingers. One rebel points her to Saw, which is confusing because that rebel has looks exactly like the machine-gun operator who dies in the beginning of the episode and one of Dendup's guards who died two minutes ago. Reusing assets isn't always easy. unfortunately for Saw, he's way below Steela and can only watch impotently. Lux tries to reach her but his arm isn't long enough and he falls too. Ahsoka Force-catches him and puts him down somewhere stable before going there herself. Finally, someone who remembers they can catch things without touching them! She starts raising steela up, but the downed gunship comes alive and manages to use its last remaining gun to shoot her, making her let go of Steela. Lux shoots the cannon. Ahsoka and him run back to the cliff and helplessly watch Steela's corpse fifty meters below. Lux is devastated. That's tragic and all, but how is Tano alive? She got shot cleanly in the back, with no protection at all, how is she getting away with just an itty-bitty burn mark? Freaking plot armor, I tells ya.

Backs at the palace, Rash reports to Dooku the failure of the gunships and demands more reinforcement. Dooku asks Kalami to asses the situation: the rebels can still be defeated, but not quickly. The count isn't interested in a prolonged war while the population supports their ennemy more and more. He orders Kalami to gather his troops and redeploy them to another battlefield. Rash starts to process and Kalami shoots him dead. He wasn't ordered to do that, or anything, I think he was just itching to kill the annoying jerk from the day he landed on the planet. Saw blames himseld for shooting the gunship that killed Steela, but Lux tells him Steela (and all of them) knew what they were risking to free their planet. They both mourn in silence

Cut to a few days later, the population of Izziz is celebrating the end of the occupation and giving steela a state funeral. Saw, Lux, Ahsoka and who I suppose are the surviving original rebels are paying homage to her while anakin and Obi-wAn look from little distance. Obi-Wans says thei has been quite the journey for "their" padawan and Anakin thinks Steela will be a "powerful spirit in her life" whatever that means exactly. Saw doesn't want to talk about his sister, while Lux thinks she would be glad for their planet's freedom. He also tells Ahsoka that after watching her heroics and the selflessness of the Jedi (Ah!) he's come around to thinking the Republic is the right side to be on. Dendup has re-appointed him Senator and they will rejoin the Republic. The people celebrate their renewed liberty. And five months later the Empire rolls in, oops!

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

Yeah, I kinda saw (heh) Steela's death coming, but it was nicely done either way. All in all, this was a nice arc with some good character moments for Ahsoka mostly, but also Lux and the Rebels. Them ending up as just friends is a good way to tie up their relationship. I don't really know if I want Lux to show up again in the show. Now that he and his planet are back with "the good guys", I don't suppose he really needs to. Ah, who am I kidding, he wasn't in Rebels or in anything I'm aware of set after the Clone wars despite being a filoni original, dude's gonna die. Don't tell me if he does, I'll see.

My one complaint about this arc won't surprise you. the Jedi's refusement to get involved makes less and less sense with each episode, and this one really took the cake. Why oh why would they see rash as more legitimate than Dendup? Adn giving the rebels weapon would be against Jedi principle but only if they're doing it themselves?! I'm all for criticizing the Jedi's behaviour during and before the Clone War, but I draw the line at making Obi-wan such a blatant hypocrite! And like I said, giving them launchers would be less help than the training they've already given them and Ahsoka's presence! Not to mention that the Separatists already know they're involved so why the secrecy? And since when do they have a problem with taking down Separatist governements?

Next up: The Gathering. Hmm, weird title.

[Keltest]

The Jedi/Republic arent looking to conquer Onderon. Its flat out not on their agenda. Part of the entire premise is that if they have to commit boots on the ground to take Onderon, then it isnt worth it, the opportunity costs are simply too high. Onderon isnt a Republic or even (formally) neutral territory that has been invaded that they need to defend, its an enemy territory undergoing civil unrest.

[Mechalich]

The Jedi/Republic arent looking to conquer Onderon. Its flat out not on their agenda. Part of the entire premise is that if they have to commit boots on the ground to take Onderon, then it isnt worth it, the opportunity costs are simply too high. Onderon isnt a Republic or even (formally) neutral territory that has been invaded that they need to defend, its an enemy territory undergoing civil unrest.

I think the Republic, or at least the 'good guy' faction of Senators including Padme, is also trying to provide loosely CIS-aligned worlds with an out. Specifically, they want worlds to leave the CIS even if they don't join/rejoin the Republic. They figure if the CIS breaks apart they can negotiate piece with individual worlds or sectors and not have to systematically defeat the organization as a whole.

And there's something to this. By RotS the CIS forces are reduced to a handful of systems actively under Republic siege and the massive aggregate fleet under Grievous' command. Internal support for the CIS has fallen far enough that once Grievous dies, the Separatist leadership is literally begging for a chance to make peace.

The Onderon-style approach therefore operates as part of a two-pronged strategy. The Republic and Jedi work to erode the CIS' base of support and at the same time they try to eliminate the hardline leadership that prevents a negotiated peace. Now, the latter effort ends up a complete failure - they don't manage to kill Dooku or Grievous, because RotS means they can't - but it's not for want of trying. The cut arcs that became Dark Disciple are all about trying to assassinate Dooku.

One other bit of important context is that while the CIS looses the Clone Wars early - in the Disney canon they arguable loose during the Clone Wars Movie when the Hutts pick the Republic side, something that happens in the first months of the war - they had the resources to keep on fighting much longer than they actually did. Even after shutting down over 90% of all remaining combat droids in RotS, Separatist remnants still fought on against the Empire for over two years. In a hypothetical situation where Order 66 doesn't happen, it's entirely possible the Clone Wars could have been a 6+ year conflict and the whole Onderon setup is part of the efforts to try and prevent that.

[Fyraltari]

The Jedi/Republic arent looking to conquer Onderon. Its flat out not on their agenda. Part of the entire premise is that if they have to commit boots on the ground to take Onderon, then it isnt worth it, the opportunity costs are simply too high. Onderon isnt a Republic or even (formally) neutral territory that has been invaded that they need to defend, its an enemy territory undergoing civil unrest.

We keep coming back to this. The Republic does not recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. As far as they're concerned, every Separatist system is a Republic system currently occupied by traitors. Their goal is to bring them back to the Republic and throw their governments in jail unless they recant like Dendup just did. The Republic is not fighting a defensive war, they've invaded Geonosis, Cato Neimodia (in ROTS) and Umbara on-screen and most likely other planets as well.

The oddity in this is the existence if neutral systems, the best way I can find to explain their existence is that they're systems who stayed in the Republic but opted out of the war effort, which apparently has historical precedent? I don't really get how that works but I am not an historian or a political expert.

Onderon was definitely part of the Republic (Mina and Padmé were friends in the Senate), but when the war started the king (Dendup) chose to remain neutral. He was then (somehow) overthrown by Rash who had Onderon joined the Separatists (who likely helped his rise to power in exchange). Now that Dendup is denoucing Rash's rule as illegitimate and fighting with the Onderonian army and a grassroot movement against a purely Separatist occupation force, it doesn't really make sense how the Republic could somehow not be legally able to answer his call for help.

[Keltest]

We keep coming back to this. The Republic does not recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. As far as they're concerned, every Separatist system is a Republic system currently occupied by traitors.

I mean, I dont actually think thats true. If it were, then the idea of peace would not only be completely unable to get off the ground, but would be outright ludicrous, and yet not only is Padme a fairly influential senator rather than, say, kicked out of the Senate for not understanding the really basic politics at work, but she actually manages to talk the Senate into entertaining peace talks at least once, before Dooku torpedoes it on the Separatist side.

The republic may not formally recognize the CIS as legitimate, but in practice every single one of their dealings with the CIS as a whole involves treating them as a legitimate government entity that was chosen by their people.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, I dont actually think thats true. If it were, then the idea of peace would not only be completely unable to get off the ground, but would be outright ludicrous, and yet not only is Padme a fairly influential senator rather than, say, kicked out of the Senate for not understanding the really basic politics at work, but she actually manages to talk the Senate into entertaining peace talks at least once, before Dooku torpedoes it on the Separatist side.

The republic may not formally recognize the CIS as legitimate, but in practice every single one of their dealings with the CIS as a whole involves treating them as a legitimate government entity that was chosen by their people.

Padmé wants a diplomtic end to the conflict. While what that would entail exactly isn't spelled out, I imagine she's banking on a peaceful re-integration of the Separatist systems inside the Republic through adressing sime of the issues that pushed them to secede in the first place..

They absolutely do not deal with them as a legitimate government entity. In Lux's introductory episode, Padmé said that meeting with a Separatist senator would risk her being charged with treason specifically to avoid giving legitimacy tho their movement. When Lux tried to assassinate Dooku, one of the Separatists' demands was that the Republic recognizes the CIS as a legitimate state, something that Padmé was unwilling to promise.

The CIS is de facto and independent state, but as far the Senate is officially concerned, the Separatist Alliance is a group of rebels and traitors and that's it.

[Grim Portent]

There's a weird split going on where the leadership of a planet being CIS aligned is fine to the Jedi, or at least not Jedi business, but the CIS itself is not acceptable because it's just a vehicle for Dooku's fallen jedi agenda. It is fundamentally one of those things where you need to squint at it for it to make any sense.

The general gist of the Republic seems to be that it's not a proper nation, it's more of a special interests forum for various largely independant entities to deal with matters of mutual benefit or peacefully resolve conflicts. It's several thousands of years of stupid, redundant, contradictory and often corrupt legislation. It's like a weird hybrid of the UN, a federal government presiding over numerous states and a cartel. The only limits on it's power are defined by itself, but in practice it's got no powers because of how long it's been getting pulled back and forth by corrupt politicians and corporate senators. This is the same organisation in which it's allowed for corporations to invade planets that owe them money, and presumably for planets to invade other planets that owe them money.

Prior to Palpatine's war reforms the Republic is basically nothing. No army, no national bank, a toothless law enforcement agency, little to no oversight over constituent worlds, seemingly no large scale rights beyond 'slavery bad' which is enforced primarily by the Jedi, no second chamber, a head of state with little to no powers. It's just a place for talking heads to waffle and prevaricate about nothing of substance for years.


The Republic presumably does not have any defined laws on seccession from it, members normally only leave when conquered by a non-member. So the CIS unilaterally leaving by choice in response to the Jedi invasion of Geonosis is a new situation, and one that warrants new and reactive legislation which presumably did not give the CIS a proper legal status.

[Thrudd]

We keep coming back to this. The Republic does not recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. As far as they're concerned, every Separatist system is a Republic system currently occupied by traitors. Their goal is to bring them back to the Republic and throw their governments in jail unless they recant like Dendup just did. The Republic is not fighting a defensive war, they've invaded Geonosis, Cato Neimodia (in ROTS) and Umbara on-screen and most likely other planets as well.

The oddity in this is the existence if neutral systems, the best way I can find to explain their existence is that they're systems who stayed in the Republic but opted out of the war effort, which apparently has historical precedent? I don't really get how that works but I am not an historian or a political expert.

Onderon was definitely part of the Republic (Mina and Padmé were friends in the Senate), but when the war started the king (Dendup) chose to remain neutral. He was then (somehow) overthrown by Rash who had Onderon joined the Separatists (who likely helped his rise to power in exchange). Now that Dendup is denoucing Rash's rule as illegitimate and fighting with the Onderonian army and a grassroot movement against a purely Separatist occupation force, it doesn't really make sense how the Republic could somehow not be legally able to answer his call for help.

It seems to me that the Republic would have to have been a looser confederation of mostly autonomous governments, at the point when the prequels begin, anyway. The Republic apparently had no or only a very small military...hence the debate in Ep 2 about whether they should even have an army (which was circumvented by Palpatine's faction secretly ordering one built anyways, somehow without anyone noticing where all the trillions or quadrillions of credits must have gone to build it). That would imply that most Republic systems maintained their own local defense forces, as we see on Naboo, and were not compelled to contribute to the defense of the Republic as a whole. Apparently there wasn't even a Republic-wide free trade or travel agreement, because the conflict that started the whole civil war was an issue with "taxation of trade routes" around Naboo. If Naboo was legally imposing tariffs on the Trade Federation, or imposing a toll on the use of hyperspace lanes through their system, that implies the Republic actually was a much looser an alliance than would be implied by the way we saw the Senate behaving. Maybe there was never a military alliance or agreement between all Republic member worlds, which begs the question- what exactly did the Republic government do and why did it even exist? Maybe there were some strongly aligned worlds who agreed to support one another militarily and engage in free trade/travel, and others that were more like "client states" who just had non-aggression agreements or individual trade agreements with specific member worlds.

Again - world building. Lucas isn't a sci-fi guy nor a world builder, I don't think he thought about the politics in more detail than "bad guy manipulates everyone into allowing him to take control and do bad stuff, Democracy falls into Authoritarianism". Filoni and other people given the task of filling in the blanks have a largely incoherent set of established facts to work with from the films...I don't envy them trying to make sense of all the inconsistencies and plot holes.

[pendell]

The oddity in this is the existence if neutral systems, the best way I can find to explain their existence is that they're systems who stayed in the Republic but opted out of the war effort, which apparently has historical precedent? I don't really get how that works but I am not an historian or a political expert.

Correct. The most obvious precedent is the US during our Civil War. We won't get into the nitty gritty for the reasons why this happened but stick with the basic facts on the war itself.

At start, there was a single federation of 34 states.

Keep in mind that at this stage of our history the US was still thought of more as a coalition or confederation than it was a single nation. Each of the states thought of themselves as voluntary participants in a supernational confederation or alliance. The idea of leaving the alliance was simply not mentioned in our founding document, the constitution, so whether a state could leave once joined was ambiguous. It would never actually be settled in a courtroom, but only on the battlefield of this very civil war.

Keep in mind, also, that the federal government had a very, very small army of its own. The entire regular army was only about 15,000 strong , mostly on the frontier deployed against the indigenous Americans or in a few coastal forts scattered over the country.

Very like the Republic in Episode 1, except the Republic didn't have any army at all.

In order to build up extremely large forces for fighting , they had to call on the states to raise the regiments, which would then be called into federal service and deployed by the federal government.

You can think of the US Regular Army as being equivalent to the Jedi Order, a small cadre of dedicated professionals who would provide leadership to the larger newly formed state units. Except the regular army couldn't lift rocks with their minds. Not that's recorded, anyway.

Anyway, the election of 1861 happened, and 15 of the 34 states didn't like the result. Like, at all. So much so, that six of them decided to test the theory of secession and left the union altogether.

Confusion ensued. Are they allowed to do that? Is the fed allowed to stop them with armed force if they do?

At any rate, the fed decided to maintain the existing posts and property of the federal government in the "seceded" territories. One of these, Fort Sumter, was taken by armed force by the Confederated States (sounds a lot like 'Confederation of independent systems') , doesn't it?

In response to this, the Fed asked for the states to contribute 75,000 volunteers to put down the obvious insurrection.

8 of the states of those 15 were outraged by this action. 4 of those states seceded at once and joined the southern confederation. The other 4 did not secede but refused to contribute the requested volunteers or money to the federal war effort. One of them, Kentucky, told both sides to stay out of their state and would fight either side if they entered Kentucky's territory with their own state troops.

These are the 'border states', which attempted to be neutral in the war.

It didn't work out. They were smack in the middle of the two sides, which meant some of the most bitter and brutal battles of the war were fought on their territory. When one of the state governments joined one side in response, minority delegates would join the other and form a government-in-exile, claiming to be the real government of the state.

This is also why the abolition of slavery didn't happen until some time into the war. Because there were slave states on both sides at the beginning, and the least thing the fed wanted to do was to drive these neutral states into open revolts. There were tens of thousands of soldiers under arms from these states, volunteers who joined when the fighting entered their territory, who would instantly ground arms and walk away if their precious 'peculiar institution' was so much as touched.

The situation changed over the next couple of years, but that's a bit out of forum scope.

So I can well imagine neutral states even in a civil war. In a federation of voluntary members dependent on contributions from the constituent nations, it's no surprise there are those who will not commit forces to the war effort while forbidding either side to enter their territory with armed force.

Of course, I suspect that part of Palpatine's plan is to put an end to such things -- to create a single all-powerful central government based on Coruscant which can command all the resources of the entire Republic/Empire without dispute. No bickering or corruption oar argument between the factions. The Death Star is a symbol of this; the Empire could bring together massive resources to make a moon-sized battle station. I'm not convinced the old Republic could have even if they wanted to.

ETA: Part of the point of the Empire is to do away with things such as 'neutral' planets. "If you're not with me you're my enemy", as Anakin said.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

It seems to me that the Republic would have to have been a looser confederation of mostly autonomous governments, at the point when the prequels begin, anyway. The Republic apparently had no or only a very small military...hence the debate in Ep 2 about whether they should even have an army (which was circumvented by Palpatine's faction secretly ordering one built anyways, somehow without anyone noticing where all the trillions or quadrillions of credits must have gone to build it). That would imply that most Republic systems maintained their own local defense forces, as we see on Naboo, and were not compelled to contribute to the defense of the Republic as a whole. Apparently there wasn't even a Republic-wide free trade or travel agreement, because the conflict that started the whole civil war was an issue with "taxation of trade routes" around Naboo. If Naboo was legally imposing tariffs on the Trade Federation, or imposing a toll on the use of hyperspace lanes through their system, that implies the Republic actually was a much looser an alliance than would be implied by the way we saw the Senate behaving. Maybe there was never a military alliance or agreement between all Republic member worlds, which begs the question- what exactly did the Republic government do and why did it even exist? Maybe there were some strongly aligned worlds who agreed to support one another militarily and engage in free trade/travel, and others that were more like "client states" who just had non-aggression agreements or individual trade agreements with specific member worlds.

Again - world building. Lucas isn't a sci-fi guy nor a world builder, I don't think he thought about the politics in more detail than "bad guy manipulates everyone into allowing him to take control and do bad stuff, Democracy falls into Authoritarianism". Filoni and other people given the task of filling in the blanks have a largely incoherent set of established facts to work with from the films...I don't envy them trying to make sense of all the inconsistencies and plot holes.

Funny thing is Naboo wasn't the one taxing the trade routes, it was the Republic Senate that controlled interplanetary taxes. The Trade Federation occupied Naboo in protest of the tariffs, which IIRC they had a legal right to do because of the nonsensical treaties that favoured the megacorps*, and Naboo was a conveniently weak target that couldn't make them shove off without help and therefore good for making their point.

There's a point made somewhere about the Republic heavily exploiting** resource rich but low population Outer Rim worlds and the trade routes they rely on but spending most of the money and resources gained on the Core Worlds with their greater population density while neglecting the infrastructure used to support the OR. The megacorps play both sides because they can exploit the OR for as long as the CW don't stop them. Which is a fairly clear reference to the urban/rural divide familiar to us humans.

'Course the whole blockade was a ploy by Palpatine to get himself into the position of Chancellor, so the actual reason for picking Naboo as a target was backroom politics, which is ultimately the reason for the CIS being the bad guys in general.

*Specifically I think Naboo owed the TF money, which they are allowed to collect by really extreme methods.

**Though I'm not sure the exploitation ever gets explained except in rather over the top examples like the Imperial era slavery.

[Mechalich]

There's a point made somewhere about the Republic heavily exploiting** resource rich but low population Outer Rim worlds and the trade routes they rely on but spending most of the money and resources gained on the Core Worlds with their greater population density while neglecting the infrastructure used to support the OR. The megacorps play both sides because they can exploit the OR for as long as the CW don't stop them. Which is a fairly clear reference to the urban/rural divide familiar to us humans.

It's not urban/rural, which is a modern conflict, but rather sovereign state/colony, which is much more appropriate to the late 19th/early 20th century social context that informs Star Wars. Many of the various megacorps controlled huge amounts of territory in the Mid and Outer Rim that were not Republic member worlds and where they exercised company rule and could do basically whatever they wanted. Mustafar, actually, is a prime example, where the entire planet was basically converted into a giant open pit mine and the native population had no other employment options.

The CIS is, politically, an anti-colonial independence movement - which is why Dooku's movement acquires a lot of popular sympathy - with the critical exception that the intent of independence is to cement in place the power of the expat colonial powers and their hideous monopolies, not to benefit the native populations. The Clone Wars, as a conflict, screwed over the common people on both sides, the big oddity is that this was almost entirely economic, since the fighting was done by purchased proxy forces rather than the citizenry in most theaters.

[Sapphire Guard]

Must have been great to be a Clone Wars writer. No matter how badly you screw up, the audience blames George instead.

[Peelee]

Must have been great to be a Clone Wars writer. No matter how badly you screw up, the audience blames George instead.

A.) it's hard to separate what bad things were writers and what were George.

2.) I, for one, have never been shy about saying Filoni isn't very good at stories. Great at Star Wars lore, terrible at stories.

[Fyraltari]

Must have been great to be a Clone Wars writer. No matter how badly you screw up, the audience blames George instead.

You know, I wonder how much not having to deal with this bull any longer played in his decision to sell to Disney.

[Sapphire Guard]

A.) it's hard to separate what bad things were writers and what were George.

All the more reason to be more careful. If you care enough to assign blame, care enough to fact check.

[Peelee]

All the more reason to be more careful. If you care enough to assign blame, care enough to fact check.

Ultimately, everything does end up with his approval regardless. Some things are more active (eg him directly saying "make [Ziro the Hutt] sound like Truman Capote") than others, but he still always have final say. He may have rubber stamped some things without looking at them, but hey, heavy is the head that wears the crown.

For example, I blame Abrams for the Sequel Trilogy being the dumpster fire it is, but Kennedy was still the one who hired him. Twice.

[Mechalich]

You know, I wonder how much not having to deal with this bull any longer played in his decision to sell to Disney.

It's hard to say. I mean, Lucas sold the franchise at roughly the same time he turned 70. Considering the massive size of Lucasfilm, retiring from management of such an enterprise requires nothing more than feeling old. He also remarried around the same time, and I imagine enjoying time with his wife rather than managing a giant franchise also impacted the decision. I also suspect that he believed, probably correctly, that it simply wasn't possible to just appoint someone as CEO of Lucasfilm and officially retire. There's simply no way the public and major investors wouldn't try to turn to him the minute things hit a rough patch. That's why the actual sale of the franchise to an even larger corporation was essential to make the break real.

Certainly the first half of the 2010s was not the height of anti-Lucas feeling among the fandom. That peaked after the prequels came out. TCW might not be universally beloved, but the fanbase wasn't particularly mad about it. If anything it was highly respected compared to what other aspects of the franchise, especially the novel line, were doing at the same time.

[Sapphire Guard]

Ultimately, everything does end up with his approval regardless. Some things are more active (eg him directly saying "make [Ziro the Hutt] sound like Truman Capote") than others, but he still always have final say. He may have rubber stamped some things without looking at them, but hey, heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Until the fanbase likes something in Star Wars,at which point people start saying 'thank god (other person) saved Star Wars from George.' It's tremendously cruel, but a very common attitude in the SW fanbase.

It takes less than a minute to check who actually wrote the Onderan arc on wikipedia (Chris Collins). But that would take a very very small effort to complain accurately rather than blindly.

[Peelee]

Until the fanbase likes something in Star Wars,at which point people start saying 'thank god (other person) saved Star Wars from George.' It's tremendously cruel, but a very common attitude in the SW fanbase.

I know you like to die on this hill, but my heart just doesn't bleed for it.

[Keltest]

I know you like to die on this hill, but my heart just doesn't bleed for it.

Eh, I'm with Sapphire Guard here. Star Wars fans are easily the worst part of Star Wars, to the point where even though I consider myself a fan, I'm flat out unwilling to actually identify myself as one and associate myself with these people except in specific circumstances.

No offense to you or groups like the 501st, who I have nothing but positive things to say about. But the only "fandom" I can think of off hand that treats a work or creator they supposedly like worse than the Star Wars fandom is the Sonic the Hedgehog fandom.