Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Jasdoif]

Where else would you put 50-foot Abraham Lincoln?

Well, the Lincoln Memorial already has that 60-foot statue of Abraham Lincoln, it'd be a place to start looking....

[Fyraltari]

Well, the Lincoln Memorial already has that 60-foot statue of Abraham Lincoln, it'd be a place to start looking....

You can't have a 50-foot Abraham Lincoln next to a 60-foot Abraham Lincoln, that'd be weird.

[Jasdoif]

You can't have a 50-foot Abraham Lincoln next to a 60-foot Abraham Lincoln, that'd be weird.

I suppose, but all my other ideas involve Lincoln Logs and I haven't had those for like a third of a century....

[Kantaki]

You can't have a 50-foot Abraham Lincoln next to a 60-foot Abraham Lincoln, that'd be weird.

Not next too. Inside. Matryoshka style.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry for not posting here in a good while, I've had to deal with stuff (and I'm not really done, either).


Overall I think season 3 is a step down from season 2. The first couple of episodes are good enough but then it just starts... meandering? for half the season with Ziro's episode, the MAndalore episodes and the R2 and 3PO episode especially. And then the Mortis arc. *sigh* at least the anachronic order shenanigans seem over with. The Citadel and Trandoshan arcs are nice, but I kinda wish the season had ended on the Nightsister instead. You see Maul's face in the orb thingy and BAM, end of the season.

There seems to be an increased focus on Ahsoka as the main character of the show which is wise I think since she has the most potential of the cast. Still it's jarring they didn't show her get her second lightsaber. Was it in a companion comic or what? Also Ziro's dead, that's good. Also it seems like the "Anakin and Obi-Wan don't like each other" phase is well behind us.

The Nightsister arc was really the high point of the season, but like I said in the reviews of these episodes, they incidentally highlight how little plot progression there has been so far. The last two seasons should really have built on Ventress and Dooku's relationship (as well as her past) to have her betrayed at the beginning of this one and then this season would have had Savage as Dooku's right hand man until the final episode where Ventress turns him against Dooku.

This season introduced Tarkin and Talzin (huh, never noticed the similar names. Probably a coincidence) which are fine additions to the cast (I know they both show up some more), especially Tarkin as he will hopefully add some more "Republic =/= good" energy.

Moving forward, I hope they explain Talzin a bit more, because so far, she feels mostly like a plot device. What does she want? Is she going to keep helping both Assaj and Savage even though they are at odds? Also, what is Ventress going to do with her life now, that it's established she can't kill Dooku?

I am bit surprised that Fives is our only survivor of Domino Squad as he was kind of the blandest (even his name is just taken from his matricule rather than a quirk). I have no idea what they intend to do with the character, if he even shows up again.

Apart from that, I don't have much to say. The lack of overall plot makes the different seasons kind of bland together.

[Jasdoif]

Also, what is Ventress going to do with her life now, that it's established she can't kill Dooku?

There's an episode in season 4 directly about this.

[Fyraltari]

Season 4, Episode 1: Water War

Just watch this, it's way better.

Spoiler: Recap

Show

We are told that "the aggressive squid-like quarren and their neighbours, the peaceful calamari" are having trouble co-existing. You know, just in case you weren't sure who to root for. To be precise, the Mon Cala king has just been stabbed to death and his heir, Lee-Char is a bit young to take over and his rule is contested by his quarren subjects (guess they're not actually neighbours). Padmé and her Jedi bodyguard Anakin* have been sent to avaoid a civil war. Well, another, smaller, civil war than the one they already have.

The local council/government-thingie is in session. The quarrens are tired of being ruled by mon cala kings while the calamari defend their privilege right to a king of their own species. Hey, guys, ever heard of this newfangled thing called democray? Or republic? Lee-char tries to assuage the quarrens' objections but he is shouted down by a shark-like nonhuman who serves as ambassador for the CIS. Guys, I think I know who murdered the king. He's here because the quarrens asked for his presence to counter the calamari's request for a Republic presence. Mon Cal is still part of the Republic, right? Because this sounds a bit treasonous to me. Amidala offers the Republic's help with whatever issues the quarrens face and they collectively boo her. Then the quarren leader and the Separatist ambassador declare they're done here and all the quarren leave without the assembly being dismissed. The quarren leader takes the time to offer his condoleances to Lee-Char, as his father was a friend of his. Sounds like an awkward friendship but hey, weirder things have happened.

The Republicans, along with Captain Ackbar (inevitable) go contact Yoda. Thei ship is still on the surface while the capital city is at the bottom of the ocean. Does the Republic not have one undersea-worthy ship, what? they report that the civil war is inevitable. Well, mission failed then? Time to get Padmé back to the Senate and let the military handle this? No? The civilian is staying for the battle. And her bodyguard-husband who's whole deal is being afraid to lose her is just fine with that. Sure, why not, at this point. Whatever. Yoda suspects that Dooku is behind all this (geeze, what was your first clue? The separatist ambassador?) and Windu sends Master Fisto, Ahsoka and a bunch of clones to help as well as tasking Ackbar with preparing the mon cala for battle (I guess he's the Republic liaison).

Ackabar gets to the palace via what I think is a higher-pressure tube acting as public transportation, neat. He reports to the prince and local Senator that the army is ready and is named Lee-Char's bodyguard. He doesn't think "the boy" is ready to lead an army yet, but nobody is asking his opinion. Meanwhile Separatist transport ships are literally just dropping aquadroids in the water. The ambassador, who it turns out is a military commander named Temsel, reports to Dooku that their army is ready and the quarren have agreed to join the Spearatists once they have control of the planet. Dooku promises Temsel he will get to be in charge, though. King Lee-Char gives a milquetoast speech to his troops where he says he doesn't believe the quarren will attack. They immediately do. How the hell did they sneak up an entire army to the capital like that?

Ackbar looks throught the window and "It's an attack!" Well, that's not quite your line, but you'll get there. Ackabar leads Lee-char to the nearest unit of soldiers and asks for his orders. He doesn't know what to do so he oreders them to hold their ground. Anakin suggests taking him to safety, but Ackbar says that, as the king, only he can take that decision. Lee-Char overrules Skywalker and presses the attack. Temsel, as all good officers do, went into battle without any weapon, electing to headbutt his rifle-wielding ennemies to death. I guess there's a contest of tactical stupidity or something, because Ackbar decides to give a speech to his troops by standing directly in front of their guns, his back turned to the ennemy that's currently shooting at them. One of the finest military minds of the Galaxy Far Far Away, people. Also, he's leading the charge instead of staying by Lee-Char's side as bodyguard. That's a court-martial, right-there.

Lee-Char takes the two humans and three redshirts to a shortcut to get behind ennemy lines. Good plan says Anakin. I mean, I certainly would not foresee the ennemy leader delivering himself into my lap like that if I were Temsel, so, uh, props for originality? This brillinat plan is foiled by a piece of buiding falling on the tube and killing(?) the three calamari soldiers. Fortunately, Fisto and the Five-Oh-First** just arrived. The tide (hehe) of battle starts to turn, so Amidala goes to look for her colleague. Anakin and the king are immediately attacked. Anakin repels them, protecting Lee-Char. Ackbar stops dual-wielding like a maniac and gets to his king. "Hear that? They're cheering for you. -they're cheering for them.- Then make it for you. Come on! Lead!" and he hands him a rifle-harpoon-thing. He doesn't, by the way.

A quarren manages to take Anakin's helmet off. Oh no, it's out of reach, he's going to drown! Oh, if only he had some ability to grab objects with his mind! Ahsoka and her underwater bike save him. And he has the gals to say he had it under control. PAdmé call her husband, she's with senato Tills (the mon cala) but they're pinned and need help. He sends Ahsoka to the prince while he goes to the senators. She saves Lee-Char from Temsel (Lee-Char apparently can't aim to save his life. Literally.) and they flee. they get into one high-pressure tube with their speeder and Temsel, who is outside and somehow keeping up with them, decides to give himself a commotion by repeatedly slamming his head against the glass. He's not even hitting the same area, you'd think he would realize that's not gonna work! Some aquadroids arrive form the opposite direction and Ahsoka is forced to let the speeder go, crashing into them. The tube is still intact and temsel still can't get in, but for some reason the flow has stopped so they're not moving. A few mon cala spot Temsel as he finally manages to insert his head ito the tube. They score several hits but it doesn't seem to even tickle him. What is this guy made of? The people whose name we know escape while the sharkman slaughters the soldiers.

The Separatists retreat, which Anakin finds strange as they could have easily overrun them apparently. They're actually deploying secret weapon number eleventillion: the hydroids medusae, invincible half-machine hlaf-monsters. The Republicans gather up and Tills tells prince Lee-Char (wasn't he king before the battle?) to prepare the terms for a quarren surrender. Literally everybody but her think the quarrens will try another round, though. Abd indeedn here comes the most terrifying weapon of all of Star Wars, move aside, death star, the real meance is... huge yellow jellyfish standing (for lack of a better term) there menacingly without doing anything in particular. Lee-Char says they have no defense agaisnt those. I mean, you could try shooting them, I think. That's usually a good thing to try. Everybody points their weapon a the thing and ackbar tells thme not to fire until the Prince gives the command. And he doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. And doesn't. Like he literally let them swim until they are literally ontop of them before he does anything. While Ackbar jsut says "steady..." repeatedly. The shooting does nothing and the medusea start killing soldiers by touching them with their electric(?) tendrils.

The Seppies outflank the Republicans, of whom there are apparently like, thirty persons? Where did everybody go? The prince doesn't want to retreat but ackbar tells him now is really not the time. Fisto stays behind while the other flee and launches a speeder at a medusae, that hurts it apparently, so he flashes his signature sith-eating grin. Temsel meets the quarren leader who tells him his reputation is a bit exaggerated. "Exaggeration is a weapon of war. It is what helped deliver the ennemy into your hands." Huh, what is he talking about? Did I miss the part where that happened? Temsel manhandles him and threaten to kill him if he ever disobeys an order again (he apparently didn't put much effort in looking for the Republicans). Deeper down, the good guys, including Fisto and waiting. Ackbar tells Lee-Char his father would be proud of him and that "how to live to fight another day" is the hardest lesson a commander can learn.



*Wait, Anakin is still officially Padmé's bodyguard? I thought that ended with Attack of the Clones.
**Good name for a band?

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

Well, it wasn't very good. Not bad really, but the battle was confusing and the episode seems to think I care a lot more about Lee-Char than I actually do.

Fisto didn't do much. Why include him if Anakin and Ahsoka are going to do all the work anyway?

This is one data-point for Lightsabers working just fine underwater. Has there ever been a consensus on that?

Next Time: Gungan Attack. I have a bad feeling about this.

[Aeson]

I believe the 'consensus' on lightsabers functioning underwater was "yes - if they're built for it."

[Keltest]

I believe the 'consensus' on lightsabers functioning underwater was "yes - if they're built for it."

Indeed. They can be waterproofed, but it isnt the default.


And as far as the Republic not having underwater functioning ships... why would they? Space isnt filled with water.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed. They can be waterproofed, but it isnt the default.


And as far as the Republic not having underwater functioning ships... why would they? Space isnt filled with water.

It isn't filled with air either, doesn't stop them from having ships that can land without any issue. Seems to me it wouldn't be hard to make a ship that could dock at the calamari capital so they don't have to go all the way to the surface whenever they need to get back to their ship.

[Jasdoif]

Does the Republic not have one undersea-worthy ship, what?

Spoiler: Gungan Attack

Show

This becomes a plot point, as the title "Gungan Attack" might suggest.

Temsel meets the quarren leader who tells him his reputation is a bit exaggerated. "Exaggeration is a weapon of war. It is what helped deliver the ennemy into your hands." Huh, what is he talking about? Did I miss the part where that happened?

He's exaggerating the exaggeration.

I believe the 'consensus' on lightsabers functioning underwater was "yes - if they're built for it."

Seems likely; Saga Edition has the "waterproof casing" lightsaber accessory.

[Keltest]

It isn't filled with air either, doesn't stop them from having ships that can land without any issue. Seems to me it wouldn't be hard to make a ship that could dock at the calamari capital so they don't have to go all the way to the surface whenever they need to get back to their ship.

There are some pretty substantial differences in preparing a ship to descend through atmosphere versus water. Beyond which, the Mon-Calamari have their own incredibly potent naval shipyards. Why would the republic need military ships to be able to enter their planet's oceans?

[Peelee]

Next Time: Gungan Attack. I have a bad feeling about this.

You could lobbed one over the plate if you'd said you weren't afraid.

It isn't filled with air either, doesn't stop them from having ships that can land without any issue.

[Planet Express Ship is being pulled deep underwater]
Turanga Leela: How many atmospheres can the ship withstand?
Professor Farnsworth: Well, it's a spaceship, so between zero and one.

[Jasdoif]

There are some pretty substantial differences in preparing a ship to descend through atmosphere versus water. Beyond which, the Mon-Calamari have their own incredibly potent naval shipyards. Why would the republic need military ships to be able to enter their planet's oceans?

Hm. It just occurred to me that the Kaminoans might not have wanted the army they were creating for someone else to be effective against their own planet's terrain; and if I recall they subcontracted the ship construction for the army themselves.

[Fyraltari]

There are some pretty substantial differences in preparing a ship to descend through atmosphere versus water.

Doubt any of it are beyond the GFFA's tech, though. A stronger hull than usual, a hydrodynamic shape and a water-worthy propulsions system. How hard can it be?

Beyond which, the Mon-Calamari have their own incredibly potent naval shipyards. Why would the republic need military ships to be able to enter their planet's oceans?

I'm not talking about military ships, though. Padmé didn't need a military ship for this mission.

[Peelee]

Hm. It just occurred to me that the Kaminoans might not have wanted the army they were creating for someone else to be effective against their own planet's terrain; and if I recall they subcontracted the ship construction for the army themselves.

Just checked and new Canon kept KDY and CEC as the main shipyards for Republic navy. Which makes sense, since those were incredibly robust and Kamino wouldn't even have facilities as good as Sorosuub, as a quick example.

[Jasdoif]

Hm. It just occurred to me that the Kaminoans might not have wanted the army they were creating for someone else to be effective against their own planet's terrain; and if I recall they subcontracted the ship construction for the army themselves.

Just checked and new Canon kept KDY and CEC as the main shipyards for Republic navy.

A double-check of the details in old canon suggests the Kaminoans subcontracted the shipbuilding to Rothana Heavy Engineering, a subsidiary of KDY; there's no conflict here, hurray!

[Keltest]

Doubt any of it are beyond the GFFA's tech, though. A stronger hull than usual, a hydrodynamic shape and a water-worthy propulsions system. How hard can it be?


I'm not talking about military ships, though. Padmé didn't need a military ship for this mission.

Im sure they "could" design it, but there are like two planets, ever, where underwater battles happen, and one of them (Kamino) only has underwater combat by accident. Neither side planned for it. Ships are sufficiently expensive that you dont build them unless you know youre going to need them.

[Peelee]

A double-check of the details in old canon suggests the Kaminoans subcontracted the shipbuilding to Rothana Heavy Engineering, a subsidiary of KDY; there's no conflict here, hurray!

Hooray indeed! I'm also amused that no matter who technically wins the contracts, KDY always actually does. Some things never change.

[Fyraltari]

Im sure they "could" design it, but there are like two planets, ever, where underwater battles happen, and one of them (Kamino) only has underwater combat by accident. Neither side planned for it. Ships are sufficiently expensive that you dont build them unless you know youre going to need them.

Again, you seem to think I am talking about warships when I am not. I am talking about people ships, to go from one place to the other.

[Peelee]

Again, you seem to think I am talking about warships when I am not. I am talking about people ships, to go from one place to the other.

I can't imagine it's a common enough need for most people to be worth the cost of doing it in all, or even most, ships. It's most likely a specialty feature that's added by request or in very specific markets.

[Fyraltari]

I can't imagine it's a common enough need for most people to be worth the cost of doing it in all, or even most, ships. It's most likely a specialty feature that's added by request or in very specific markets.

Between the mon cal, quarren, gungan, Kit Fisto's people and sharkman's people that's five different species of amphibious sapients in this couple of episodes. There's also the bounty hunter that showed up a couple time, the kaminoans, the selkaths and I'm sure plenty others. And the opera singers from Revenge of the Sith who sang from inside a bubble of water and so may not even be able to breathe air. There are quite a few species in the GFFA who live underwater and who presumably have the same needs for spacecrafts as everybody else. Ships that can go from space to underwater shouldn't be rare. Epsecially when, as Keltest pointed out The mon cal have famous shipyards, it'd be very odd for the ships of their design not to be suited to their needs.


All that to say that it seems very odd to me that the Republic's diplomatic corps couldn't find a ship that can go underwater for this mission.

[Peelee]

Between the mon cal, quarren, gungan, Kit Fisto's people and sharkman's people that's five different species of amphibious sapients in this couple of episodes. There's also the bounty hunter that showed up a couple time, the kaminoans, the selkaths and I'm sure plenty others. And the opera singers from Revenge of the Sith who sang from inside a bubble of water and so may not even be able to breathe air. There are quite a few species in the GFFA who live underwater and who presumably have the same needs for spacecrafts as everybody else. Ships that can go from space to underwater shouldn't be rare. Epsecially when, as Keltest pointed out The mon cal have famous shipyards, it'd be very odd for the ships of their design not to be suited to their needs.


All that to say that it seems very odd to me that the Republic's diplomatic corps couldn't find a ship that can go underwater for this mission.

As you say, all these people are amphibious. Several (eg Gungans and Selkath) are notably reclusive. All of them that have spaceports have them land-based.

I do not believe their needs are what you believe their needs are.

[Fyraltari]

As you say, all these people are amphibious.

Not (probably) the opera singers' species.

Several (eg Gungans and Selkath) are notably reclusive.

There was one bounty hunting on Coruscant and two is a bit of a low threshold for "several".

All of them that have spaceports have them land-based.

The mon cal clearly don't since Padmé hasn't parked her ride there.

I do not believe their needs are what you believe their needs are.

Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure the people who live in the undersea capital would rather board their ships there rather than swim all the way to the surface. No-one like commuting, even in the GFFA.

[Peelee]

Not (probably) the opera singers' species.

No evidence either way, but not a hill I particularly care about dying on regardless.

There was one bounty hunting on Coruscant and two is a bit of a low threshold for "several".

Two is a fine threshold for "several" out of what, five? If it was three I'd have used "the majority".

The mon cal clearly don't since Padmé hasn't parked her ride there.

They still do, they just also have water-based ones. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying the need is far less than what you seem to be assuming.

Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure the people who live in the undersea capital would rather board their ships there rather than swim all the way to the surface. No-one like commuting, even in the GFFA.

Apparently not, for the most part. Something something assumptions that fit the text, and all.

[Fyraltari]

No evidence either way, but not a hill I particularly care about dying on regardless.

Two is a fine threshold for "several" out of what, five? If it was three I'd have used "the majority".

Three out of nine is not a majority.

They still do, they just also have water-based ones. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying the need is far less than what you seem to be assuming.

Apparently not, for the most part. Something something assumptions that fit the text, and all.

The text I'm reading has Padmé, Anakin and Ackbar having to swim from the capital to the surface to get to their ship. So either Padmé didn't think to bring a ship she could park in the city she was sent to (despite Anakin having his lightsaber gizmod up so it could work underwater) or ship that can go underwater are such a rarity that the galactic superpower can't afford one for the diplomats it sends to the planet of the people who build a lot of ships and keep their capital under the sea. Pick your poison.

[Jasdoif]

All that to say that it seems very odd to me that the Republic's diplomatic corps couldn't find a ship that can go underwater for this mission.

Depends how much, if at all, they cared to wait for one to be available, is my best guess. Worst case, Consular-class cruisers like the one that appears in this episode are known for being easy to modify; my best estimate (i.e. trusting a couple Saga Edition sourcebooks) is that it'd take a little over a week (and a million credits in parts) for two dozen mechanics to retrofit one with amphibious seals, so if they really needed it they could probably have managed it eventually. So I assume time was the deciding factor here.

[Keltest]

I cant imagine that the Quarrans would allow a Republic ship of any sort to just chill in their capital either. Doubly so if theyve drunk the kool-aid the separatists are serving.

[Peelee]

Three out of nine is not a majority.

Indeed. Three out of five, however, is, and I was clearly and explicitly under the assumption of five examples there. I was wrong, yes, but the math was consistent.

The text I'm reading has Padmé, Anakin and Ackbar having to swim from the capital to the surface to get to their ship. So either Padmé didn't think to bring a ship she could park in the city she was sent to (despite Anakin having his lightsaber gizmod up so it could work underwater) or ship that can go underwater are such a rarity that the galactic superpower can't afford one for the diplomats it sends to the planet of the people who build a lot of ships and keep their capital under the sea. Pick your poison.

Again, every amphibious race that we know has spaceports have air/ground spaceports. Why bother getting this super beefed up ship that can go underwater when it's not necessary?

[Mechalich]

Making a spaceship that can operate underwater is actually a significant engineering challenge. A submarine is reinforced to hold back water pressure and prevent it from crushing the ship, while a spacecraft has to hold air pressure in and keep it from escaping. These are effectively forces in opposition.

Now, it is still weird that the Republic units didn't bring an amphibious shuttle or similar vessel with them on the trip in order to tool around in the oceans, something that ought to be quite easy to do, however, that can be rationalized. Since the Mon Calamari are noted shipwrights, it may be their tradition to provide vehicles to their guests as a way of showing off their engineering prowess (in a sort of 'you don't tour the Ford factory driving a Chevrolet' kind of way). However, the sudden escalation of the conflict might have resulted in the conscription of all available vehicles to emergency military needs, leaving the diplomatic service without.