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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    I... think... part of the point of the episode is to remind you that the republic has real, verifiable issues even without the separatists, and that even without Count Dooku and Palpatine stirring up the conflict into open war, something was going to come to a head. The Trade Federation isnt even a system, but they still had (have?) their own senator. Mandalore is probably right to not trust that the republic would be able to help with its problems much, given that they havent even solved those problems in their own territories.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Season 3, Episode 6: The Academy

    Ha! The opening narration just called Mandalore "peaceful". Following on last episode, the Jedi Council has tasked Ahsoka Tano to end corruption on Mandalore. No pressure, though. Specifically, she is to instruct the cadets of the Rpyal Academy of Mandalore such foreign concept as "integrity". Anakin drops her off on the planet before leaving (because she's old enough to fight wars and end systemic corruption but not old enough to drive I guess). Almec and Satine assume he's going to stay as well before he corrects them: the Jedi doesn't have that many people to spare right now. Honestly I'm even surprised they're sending anyone considering Mandalore isn't with the Republic and they have a war to manage. Oh and because of Obi-Wan's visit, no-offworlder is allowed to carry a weapon apparently. You know, the visit where all the trouble was caused by native Mandalorians? So Ahsoka has to give her lightsaber to Anakin (what happened to "this weapon is your life?). Also they call him "Master Skywalker" which still pisses me off, but given that they later call Ahsoka "Master" too, I guess they're just being exceedingly polite.

    Ahsoka teaches the cadets and wow, apparently the concept of courruption is utterly unknown to them, with such questions as "so it's the result of greed?" as is the idea of accountability. Four of the cadets (living in the same room despite being evenly split between girls and boys, guess they have mixed dormitories on Mandalore) decide to put Ahsoka's lesson in practice: one of them thinks that the strict rationning of food doesn't correlate with the transport ships that keep coming in, so they'll go to the warehouses to investigate wether there really is a food-shortage. The doors are heavily secured by the government but their Academy teaching allows them to break in. I'm starting to have serious doubts about the curriculum of this Academy. MAndatory bad feeling about this.

    The four of them stumble by sheer unadultered plot luck on a meeting between several of the goat alien smugglers and a hooded figured escorted by Mandalorian police with unmarked uniforms. They start recording the thing. Unfortunately, they are spotted and, though they manage to escape, they drop one of their Academy-issued computer-tablet that the hooded man picks up. Hmmmmmm I wonder who that could be? My guess is Satine.

    Once they're back to their dormitory, they decide to inform the authorities. Turns out one of them is Satine's nephew (I don't recall her sibling(s?) ever being mentionned). They tell Satine that there's tons of food a tthe port so there's no food shortage (how many people live on Mandalore again?) and that they have a recording of a deal between black marketeers and a government official. She assures them that she's taking all of that seriously and to let her handle it while they focus on their studies but she doesn't even look at the recording. Tehn again "there'll be a time to save the world when you're a bit older" is probably the most sensible thing anyone has said in this show.

    Miffed by this, they decide to call the Prime Minister. He is very interested and wants to know if Satine knows who the conspirator is. Once told she's "looking into it" he asks them to meet him on the plaza during the night with the recording and every cadet who knows about this. Oh and all the other standard stuff: don't call the polic, don't bring anybody else, don't bring weapons and if you could write a suicide letter before-hand, you know, as a joke, that'd be nice.

    In class they tell Ahsoka the whole story, including the breaking and entering of government property. They do this, I might add, in front of their classmates who are utterly blasé about the entire thing. Ahsoka points out that they shouldn't rush this kind of thing and should have taken time to examine the situation before acting. the lead cadet (Corki?) says she sounds more like his aunt than a Jedi Knight. Meanwhile Yoda has a buzzing in his ear and he does not know why. Then the bell rings and the whole class leaves without Ahsoka telling them to or assigning homework which is easily the most fantastical thing in this galaxy of space-monk-wizards.

    The cadets meet not with Almec but with the same unmarked policemen from before. Turns out they're secret service and here to arrest them for "treason, corruption and conspiracy." A fight breaks out and Ahsoka springs from a rooftop and hands the Mando their asses to them. She's not even armed, that's pathetic, guys. The cadets realize Almec is behind all this but they don't have any proof as the hologram doesn't show the hooded figure's face. Ahsoka points a gizmo at it and orders it to "ID an hologram" which results in Almec's face showing up. [Insert police show joke here].

    They rush to warn Satine but her quarters are empty save for the corpses of her guards. Almec just committed a coup to hide bribery? Did Hans Gruber teach him to do crime? Ahsoka has a plan to discover Satine's whereabouts to Almec: delivering the cadets to him and pretending to believe he's the honest one in this. Almec and Ahsoka go with the cadets as they are being sent to prison and Almec does say that he has satine "the leader of the conspiracy" in custody but doesn't say where (turns out it's this very building, very stealthy, Almec).

    Ahsoka then just says she needs to interrogate the prisoners and they let her in. Amazing. Ahsoka tells the cadets what little progress she has made and to act on her signal, which they'll know when it comes. Then she mind-controls a random grunt to take her to the Duchess. And he happens to know where she is! Satine is kept in some kind of isolation cell but as Tano frees her she reveals that it's a trap and, indeed, almec shows up and tells the guard to stop play-acting. I think that's the first time I've seen someone pretend to be mind-tricked in SW. Impressive. Apparently the guards have been trained to resist "archaic magics." How? Also did Ahsoka really not expect the guys she beat up and saw run away wouldn't report to their boss?

    Almec has Ahsoka stunned and orders Satine to sign a confession of her treason. She says he's the only traitor here. I disagree, there's like a dozen soldiers in the room too. Almec admits to having installed the black market and tries to justify it, saying the profits are used to purchase humanitarian aid, like a new tax. Satine call bull**** and he has her shocked. When she refuses to bulge he decides to torture the cadets instead and has them brought in. Ahsoka and the cadets then overpower the guards and a fight ensues until Ahsoka puts Satine's shock collar on Almec's long neck and shocks him until he surrenders.

    Satine and her guards place Almec in her old cell and she tells Ahsoka that she brought her on Mandalore because she suspected something within her government and hoped that working together they could uncover it. Then why didn't you tell her any of this? Ahsoka later leaves after trading some barbs with Anakin.



    This wasn't as bad as the previous one but it's not very good either. The identity of the villain is easy to guess (Satine is really bad at putting a government together it seems) and the excuse they found to separate Ahsoka from her lightsaber is obviously just there so she doesn't cleave human beings in two. They could at least have had it be an issue later on. I'm confused by the decision to have the cadets be the main character (yes singular, they're all one character anyway, you could have dropped two of them and changed nothing) rather than Ahsoka. Between this and the Sphere of Influence she's getting side-lined a lot. Honestly the main problem with this last couple of pisodes is that this show is clearly not equipped to tackle a subject like corruption in polictics and so ends up just being very surface-level ("corruption is the result of greed?").
    Edit: Also a few of the Mndo soldiers are noticeably voiced by the clones' actor (Dee Bradley Baker) and, while that makes sense, it's distracting.

    Next up: The Assassin
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-02-13 at 11:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Season 3, Episode 7:Assassin

    Sometimes after the finale of last season, Ahsoka is back on coruscant after sucessfully completing a mission (the opening implies the last two epsiode but they often show stuff that's only thematically realted to episode so I wouldn't bet on it) and the Council congratulates her. You know it's quite rare to see the Jedi Council just legitimately pat someone on the back for a job well done. I guess it happens mostly off-screen. She's to stay at the Temple for the time being to write her report while Anakin is sent on a solo mission. She's miffed but even Skywalker agrees that some down time would do her some good.

    And then she starts dreaming of Aurra Sing assaulting her and gloating that "she" will die. This is especially surprising to Ahsoka because she thought Sing had died when her ship crashed. She goes to Yoda to talk about it and he agrees that they are legitimate visions. He seems happy she's making progress in attuning herself to the Force and advise her to meditate to make sense of it. She does and her vision shows her Aurra being hired by somebody to kill Padmé. She goes to Amidala and they immediately hug upon seeing one another. Wow, I didn't think they were that close. Gonna need work on that "no attachment" rule, Ahsoka. the Padawan tells the senator about her vision and both Amidala and Captain Typho take it seriously, however Amidala needs to leave Coruscant to a conference hosted by Bail Organa on Alderaan about the war refugees.

    After having some more visions and being reassured by Yoda that "always in motion, the future is" Tano decides to accompany Padmé to the conference to protect her. On the trip Ahsoka admits to feeling unure of herself and of her abilities especially when anakin's not around to guide her. Padmé reassures her by telling her she felt the same when she was her age and had to run the entire system of Naboo. Ladies, neither of those are situations teenagers should ever be in. During the night Ahsoka has another vision ending with Sing standing next to her bed telling her that it has begun. Lightsaber in hand, she runs to Padmé's bedroom, AotC style but ultimately has to damit that this was a false alarm and meekly go back to bed.

    Alderaan looks nice. Also present for the conference are bail, Mon Mothma, some randos and a platoon of Senate Guards for security. The corridors look exactly like Ahsoka's visions and she has another vision, showing Padmé being shot during her speech at the conference. She tells Amidala and Typho but she can't tell them where Sing is going to be nor wether she ultimatley succeeds in her goal. Ahsoka is more and more worried about Padmé but she tells her that she (Amidala) can't let fear stop her from living her life and that she's no stranger to danger. Ahsoak also admits to being more and more confused since apart from her vision nothing points to any danger and maybe she's just imagining things. Padmé has no answer.

    However during the speech (Padmé compares the war to the invasion of Naboo and points out that 100 Jedi have already died) her premonitions act up again and for good reasons: Sing is indeed here, having broken a guard's neck and preparing to shoot Padmé with a sniper rifle from one of those oversized airducts they always have. Ahsoka arrives soon enough to push the gun resulting in Padmé being shot on the shoulder but the assassin escapes the Padawan. Surprising absolutely no-one Padmé survives and thanks Ahsoka. Organa and Tano wants her to return to corsucant but she is adamant to give her speech (besides the assassin would simply follow her). Ahsoka then proposes a solution for her to give her speech in safety.

    Cut to Bail, Ahsoka and a few guards escorting "Padmé", actually a droid in a robe with the hood up back to the podium. They apparently instructed everybody presents to clap as if it were really Padmé too. Padmé continues her speech remotely: she wants social protection for the homeless and civil rights for the clone troopers (Hey, it's nice to see that someone actually carries about the gene-slave canon-fodder in this galaxy) as well as her usual "let's try diplomacy with the CIS, guys". Say, wasn't this supposed to be about the refugees? Aurra Sing isn't fooled however and Ahsoka senses that she is instead headed for the infirmary where the real senator is. Ahsoka is there, of course, just in time. Sing rants about the last time they met and how hondo "pull her out of the wreckage" of the Slave One.
    Guess that's all the explanation you need to survive an explosion as big as a two-story house. Amidala states that killing her won't stop her cause but Aurra explains that her employer simply wants revenge on her. Sing actually beats Ahsoka with a pair of blasters.
    Spoiler
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    But Padmé uses a gun she had concealed to stun her.

    Back on Coruscant, Sing is handed over to the authorities. Gonna be an awkward meeting with Boba, that one. Yoda congratulates the Padawan and asks her to focus to see if she can divine the identity of Aurra's employer. Ahsoka sees large devouring shapes, bizarre laughter and the colour purple. Amidala immediately zeroes in on Ziro. Consequentely, Anakin and Ahsoka go pay him a visit. In jail. He naturally denies everything but when Ahsoka says Sing already confessed to his involvment he slips and says he should have hired somebody else. How did this guy ever run a criminal organisation, again? They leave while he impotently rages.



    This episode was good, which is a relief after the last two. everybody is competent and I am especially glad that nobody but Ahsoka doubted her vision because it is infuriately common for people to dismiss prophetic visons in universes where they are proven to be reliable. Speaking of doubt, Ahsoka's self-doubts are the main focus of the episode and they are handled very well. I like that she even confused a nightmare (Sing being on the ship) for an actual vision. Too bad I'm fairly certain Force-premonitions will never be this useful again. On the vilain side, Sing continues to be one of the more competent vilains in the show, frankly only failing due to bad luck. I don't often say this but I wish Nute Gunray was in the episode. Because for all of his faults I can grant him this: he's not Ziro.
    Wait, did Aurra meet Ziro in his cell? Isn't she a notorious criminal? How did that happen?

    Next up: Evil Plans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    How many Padme assassination attempts are we at now?

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    How many Padme assassination attempts are we at now?
    We may as well ask "how many episodes have featured her so far?"
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    We may as well ask "how many episodes have featured her so far?"
    Hey now, you're forgetting the movies.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Season 3, Episode 8: Evil Plans

    Anakin and Padmé are throwing a party (it's been a while since I mentionned how terrible they are at this whole "secret couple" thing, hasn't it?) for a "Senator Ang" who is head of the military oversight commitee, hence Pdamé is stressed and wants everything to be perfect. Anakin tries to be soothing but he isn't help by 3-PO being... 3-PO. things aren't helped by R2 forgetting to by "Jogan fruits" for the big cake. This is the main stake of the episode, friends. So Anakin sends the pair to buy some in a hurry, telling them not to be distracted.

    On their way to the market, they are spotted by Cade Bane, TO-DO and a random IG droid. 3-PO finds a marchantselling the last four Jogan fruits on the planet (must be a business partner of Watto's) and gets swindeled out of most of the money Skywalker had told him not to get swindled out of. As they leave they are approached by TO-DO who offers them a trip to a droid maintenance spa. I'm confused by this business model, are droids even legally allowed to own money? Anyway, R2 just buys it and goes in while TO-DO shoves 3-PO inside Bane's car. D2 doesn't even notice. Also the fuits' case was dropped on the ground.

    While R2 gets pampered (including a confusing massage) Cade's team torture 3-PO and pry inside his memory to find the plans to the senate building. However he has no useful information. But he blurts out that R2 would. I miss the original star Wars when 3-PO wasn't a dumbass. R2 exits the spa and picks up the fruits, only now registering that his "counterpart" is missing. He gets attacked by Bane's droids and escapes. He evades them for a while but when TO-DO speaks of destroying "the Golden One" he gives himself up instead of alerting Anakin. Even TO-DO calls that stupid. Bane's crew get what they need from him and wipe the droids' memory of the event.


    Cade delivers the plans to Jabba and is paid. JAbba then offers him a new job for more money, once he's got the agreement of the heads of the Five Hutt Families. They talk about some information that Ziro has that is dangerous to them. And then they hire Cade Bane to spring the guy from prison for them. Meanwhile, the pair of droids is dropped in a street where TO-DO thanks them for the memories and leave. and they get back to the reception just in time for desert. In a h-i-l-a-r-i-o-u-s reversal, Anakin is now the stressed-out one. And the cake is delivered. 3-PO gets one compliment and this lightens his decade.


    Well, this was a nothingburger. The only thing vaguely enjoyable from this is TO-DO. The only point of this episode seems to be to establish the Hutt Council and tha the season 1 finale happend because 3-PO is an idiot.
    Also I guess we have a timeline for Bane: he attacked the Senate without TO-DO for some reason and only later did he attack the Temple.

    Next up: Hunt for Ziro
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-02-19 at 06:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This is the main stake of the episode, friends.
    I believe you mean "the main fruit".
    And speaking of fruits, please excuse me while I dodge all these flying tomatoes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Next up: Hunt for Ziro
    Oh you just know you're going to love an episode that has Ziro in the title.
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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I believe you mean "the main fruit".
    And speaking of fruits, please excuse me while I dodge all these flying tomatoes.
    I don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh you just know you're going to love an episode that has Ziro in the title.
    Heh, I can't complain any more than I already have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Season 3, Episode 9: Hunt for Ziro

    This is a follow-up to the first season finale because that clearly is the most important dangling plot thread right now. Obi-Wan is meeting with a Jedi Knight called Quinlan Vos on Coruscant to pursue Bane and Ziro. Kenobi tells Cody that Vos is crazy and his point is immediately proven by Vos choosing to jump off the dropship that has to land anyway to the platform rather than walk like a normal person. Cody rolls his eyes so hard you can tell he's doing it even though he wears a helmet. This is his only contribution to the episode. Obi-Wan thinks Bane kidnapped Ziro for Jabba as payback for his trying to kill Jabba's son in the pilot movie, however Vos has intel (somehow) that Ziro has dirt on the "Hutt Council" so they're probably behind this. The two of them depart for Nal Hutta to talk to said council.

    Quinla Vos is right as said council, made up of representative of the five biggest Hutt crime families and lead by Gardulla the Hutt (I think she was a rival of Jabba's in Legends?), only got Ziro out because he keeps a holo-diary of all their criminal activities. And he claims that if he dies the diary will go public. They still throw him in jail. Then they have a party. Full of half-naked twi'lek dancers wearing face-concealing masks designed to look like hutt heads. I think it's better not to question that. The lead singer isn't a twi'lek but Sy Snootle, the frog/giraffe/fly hybrid from RotJ. Once she learns that the hutts' happy mood is due to Ziro being locked up in the dungeons she makes an excuse and leave. She reaches the cell block, trick the gamorrean guards into fighting ("Gardulla wants to know which one of you is the strongest"), and talks with Ziro. Apparently the two were lovers, but he ditched her (he says Jabba made him), he convinces here to help him escape and they kiss. I know someone somewhere is enjoying that image, and good for them, but that isn't me.

    Our two Jedi reach Nal Hutta and Quinlan antagonizes the hutts right off the bat. fortunately Obi-Wan reins him in (Gardulla even says that they would have killed Vos otherwise). The council denies any knowledge of Ziro's whereabouts. However touching a glass discarded by Ziro earlier grants Vos a vision of Ziro and he confirms his presence to Obi-Wan. They find the cell block and the unconscious (dead?) guards, conclude that Ziro has had help and leave. Cad Bane reveals that he has been in the palace this entire time and watching the Jedi from afar. The hutts hire him to find Ziro and the diary.

    Ziro and Sy stop at "the one place Gardulla aon't look for me." His mother's. Sure. Why not. So we get a deadbeat son/verbally abusive mother scene before he can get her spaceship to escape Gardualla's wrath. The Jedi are tracking him on foot, through the swamp, no idea how that works. Obi-Wan fights a random snake. They bicker. Bane just flies by as he heads directly to Ziro's mom. The Jedi get there. Vos breaks the door which appals Obi-Wan just as much as me. Mrs Desilijic says Bane forced the destination of her son out of her, so she tells the Jedi as well to protect him, I think? They leave without paying for the door. This attitude is why the Republic turned on you, guys.

    Ziro and Sy land on some random planet where they find Ziro's father's grave. He never told his mother the man was dead because some people are happier miserable. He retrieves the diary from the grave and Sy shoots him down for breaking her heart.
    Spoiler: Yayy.
    Show

    Bane arrives and notes that Ziro is dead and the diary missing (how did he even know it was supposed to be there?). But then arrive the Jedi, they first think he did it, but he says the kill is too sloppy to be his handiwork, which they accept. But they decide to take him in since, you know, also a wanted criminal on the run from the law. Bane retorts that the Seppies buy Jedi severed heads 1 million credits apiece [insert Dr. Evil meme here]. They have a fight scene. Bane escapes. Obi-Wan makes a pun about how much he dislikes teaming up with Quinlan Vos. Turns out Sy Snootles was hired to retrieve the diary by Jabba.



    This espisode is bad. It's the one of worst of the season so far and, hopefully, its absolute nadir. This is the b... least worse Ziro got so far, and that's due in no small part to the fact that he freaking dies in it. Good riddance. Bane is clearly only there so that the Jedi have someone to fight at the end but since this fight is compeltely irrelevant to the rest of the episode it completely failed to get me interested. It's pretty blatant that this fight and the snake one are only there to fill a quota. The Jedi themselves are only there because we gotta have Jedi in there somewhere as they accomplish nil throughout the episode. Quinlan Vos is a poor man's Anakin having pretty much the same "reckless" dickish personnality. Obi-wan even calls him crazy. Gotta watch that one in case he starts dressing in all black and making weird speeches about new powers and stuff. He does have one interesting quirk though: the power of psychometry deserves to be featured more prominently than it is in this universe, I just hope they find something more interesting to use it (and him) on. Also this takes place after the first season finale, which itself happened before the beginning of last season (raising the question of how Bane managed to slip through Coruscant's customs security after having antagonized the Republic like that).
    This is the second time this season that we have a three-episode arc whose middle episode is all the way back in season one, what's up with that?

    Next up: Heroes on Both Sides. Okay, I'm intrigues, see that title is taken verbatim from RotS' opening scrolls and it's something I was always disappointed that the Prequel-era material failed to deliver on: that the Separatists aren't just a bunch of anarcho-capitalists leading an army of mindlees droids, a lot of them are allegedly normal people fighting for independence from a corrupt government that neglects them. We'll see how they handle that.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-02-20 at 05:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't get it.
    "Stakes" sounds like "steaks", so I made a joke on switching the "food" based on the importance of the fruit in the episode.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    "Stakes" sounds like "steaks", so I made a joke on switching the "food" based on the importance of the fruit in the episode.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Season 3, Episode 10: Heroes on both Size

    The Senate is in session, Senator Sam (I think he represents the Techno-union but I'm not 100% sure) backed by Lott Dod and the seantor for Kamino proposes a bill to increase war spending and, in order to gather the necessary funds, deregulate the banks. Amidala, Organa and Mothma are, naturally opposed and Padmé does her usual spiel about negotiations. ultimately Mas Amedda decides to adjourn the meeting for the time being. The representative for the Banking Clans (Clovis has been replaced by a muun), Dod and Sam are unhappy, that bill would have gained them a little fortune. Dod shoots down a proposal to have Amidala assassinated since that never works and the muun suggests a Separatist attack on Coruscant itself to scare the Senate. Sam likes the plan but the muun reminds him that no-one cares what he thinks.

    Meanwhile, Padmé is talking to Ahsoka and Anakin. Ahsoka looks older than she did three episodes ago, she's got a new outfit and I think she's taller too? This episode seems to take place much later chronologically than the previous ones. I wonder if someone has managed to make a timeline of this show (hell, Padmé's Rodian uncle, Senator Farr is still alive in this!). Padmé wants Anakin to ask the Jedi Council plead her case with Palpatine but he says that's not his role. *cough*guardianofpeacemybutt*cough* Ahsoka is a bit confused and Skywalker asks PAdmé to teach her a bit of politics. Ahsoka explains that she knows that "the separatists are evil" but she's surprised by the fact that the Senate was talking about finances rather than the reasons behind the war. Anakin chimes in "the Separatists believe the republic is corrupt, but they're wrong and we have to restore order." This convinces Padmé that Anakin should stay out of politics. She does borrow Ahsoka, though.

    Far away from that Dooku orders Grievous to strike at Coruscant. He is surprisingly open about the motives behind this attack, too: openly telling the general that he has representatives in the Senate and that the current situation threatens his master's plan. Just how much does Grievous knows about the Sith plan anyway? Does he even care? Back to Coruscant Padmé decides to talk to an old friend of hers, Senator Bontari, a senator in the Confederacy of Independent Systems! Dun dun dun! Ahsoka is shocked to learn that Amidala is friend with "one of Dooku's pawns". Amidala reminds her that the CIS used to be part of the Republic and many of the senators who left were her friends. It's illegal now for a Republican and a Separatist elected official to meet as it would give the CIS legitimacy but Padmé wants to use Ahsoka's special Jedi clearance to travel to Mandalore, which is neutral and then hop on to CIS space. Ahsoka points out how irregular that is and that she's down for it. She then remarks that Padmé and Anakin are very alike which explains why then get along so well, gnark.

    Grievous reports to Dooku that his "infiltrator droids" are ready, along for the communication is the muun senator who tell him to hurry because "the senate is restless" whatever that means. Wait is Dooku on Coruscant? He almost always appears in holograms, has he been hiding on Coruscant for the entirety of the war? Anyhoo, Grievous tell the senator that he doesn't take orders from him. Sounds like the Seppies have a well-defined pecking order. He then gives a speech to the infiltrator droids, it starts as the usual "some of you may not return" but hten he corrects himself: it's a suicide mission, none of them are coming back. They don't seem to mind and fold from hulking behemoths to a more innocuous-looking astromech-like appearance before boarding for Coruscant. Ahsoka and Padmé arrive on planet Praxis and are welcomed by Senator Mina Bontari who was apparently a mentor of sorts to Amidala. She doesn't look like the image the Jedi has of a Separatist apparently. They get to Bontari's manor and Ahsoka acts coldly towards her son, Lux. Ahsoka shows how well Anakin trained her in the fine art of diplomacy by immediately accusing Bontari of, as a Separatist, having caused the war. She replies that the Separatists say the same about the Republic and the Jedi (with better footing, I would say). She also explains that Lux's father died a year ago fighting clones in self-defense. Is it called self-defense when you're a soldiers fighting other soldiers? That seems redundant. Tano excuses herself.

    She meets Lux who says that before the war he was told the JEdi were good but now, all his friends say they're responsible for the horrors happening. Ahsoka guesses she's the first Jedi he's ever met and tells him to get a good look at her to see wether she's "so bad". He looks her over and says that she isn't bad at all. She concludes that boys are the same all over the galaxy. However Lux counter-guesses that she hasn't made many separatists either (droids don't count). She admits she's only ever met military officers like Grievous and ventress. (Ventress is military?) He then tells her to look at him to see wether he's "so bad". Cute. Meanwhile Amidala and Bontari have agreed to disagree about Dooku (Bontari admires him) and PAdmé explains the Senate situation. Mina states that the Separatist Parliament is in a similar state and she agrees to put a motion on the florr to open negotiations with the Republic, something that Padmé is convinced could gather enough republican goodwill to establish a truce of sorts. They drink to peace and hope while Padmé glances at Ahsoka and Lux outside.

    Cut to the Separatist Parliament (which is modeled after the British one and also much, much smaller than the Republic) where Bontari finishes her plea for peace. One Senator says the corporations would never allow peace to happen and another one retorts that "this is a democracy.And unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us." Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, bud. Holo-Dooku calls for a "Aye/Nay" vote on negotiations and the Aye wins. However, in private, Dooku reassures his people in the Republic Senate that the attack is still going to happen and that will shoot down any peace talk. Ahsoka and Padmé say their goodbyes to the Bontaris. Mina says she feels like this time, the tide is turning. (so, you could say you have a good feeling about this?) And Tano tells Lux she wouldn't want to meet him in battle, for his sake.

    On Corsucant, Grievous orders the infiltrators, working as cleaning droids, to launch their attack. They fool the security of a power plant (a clone even corrects them on which way to go to reach the generators) and get into position. While that's going on, Palpatine and Padmé discuss the Separatists' olive branch. Of course the Chancellor casts doubts on the sincerity of the offer so Padmé reveals she's been in contact with Bontari. Sheev starts prodding her for more info while the camera zooms on his face. Welp, soemone's going to die horribly. Then he agrees to put the vote to the floor. Amidala and her allies start arguing to vote against the increased spendings/deregulation bill to Lott Dod's horror. Fortunately for him, the infiltrators revert to fighting mode and slaughter the pwoer plants' workers and then combine to form bombs. Bombs that explode in the middle of the vote, cutting power to the whole area around the Senate. Hysteria spreads and multiple fires start. Soon afterwards, the attack is confirmed as being separatist in origin and the senate votes to deregulate the banks and escalate the war effort. Ahsoka returns to Anakin who reveals he knew about their little trip and berates them for it. Ahsoka says that at least she's learned something: this war isn't as black and white as she thought.




    Aaah, finally a good episode. It has been a while. A bit low on action, I will say (can you believe our last lightsaber duel was 8 episodes ago?) but still pretty good. The theme is obviously what Ahsoka says at the end and it makes sense that she'd need that lesson: as a young Jedi she has lived a pretty sheltered (maybe isolated is a better word) life and being in the front lines of a war fought against faceless interchangeable robots wouldn't help get a full picture. The Bontaris are fine as characters but I am disappointed the epsiode didn't exactly deliver on its title by giving us a heroic Spearatist fighting the war (dead father notwithstanding). I'm pretty sure Mina is a goner but I wonder where Lux is headed as a character, especially since they (lightly) teased a relationship with Ahsoka.

    I could swear I already commented on the Separatist governing body being called alternatively Parliament, Senate or even Congress, am I going mad? In any case it seems to hold actual power rather than being a facade for the Separatist Council since Dooku has tomaneuver around it voting for peace. Also its members seems to genuinely believe they aren't controlled by the corporations who suplly them with 99% of their fighting forces. Suuuuure.
    speaking of the megacorps, they really are doubling down on the whole war-profiteering evil neutral (as opposed to Satine's good neutral) angle which I still find weird. Like, they want the Republic to deregulate their banks and loan money for them so that it can increase its military spending; but isn't the whole plan to topple the Republic through the CIS? How is the republic going to repay your loans if it is dissolved? And isn't an increased military going to hamper that goal?

    Also the episode has a pretty clear political message beyond "war bad and not black&white" again. I won't discuss it for obvious reasons, but I will say that it is better presented than the "privacy invasion act" a while back.

    Edit: Idle thought, has there ever been a figure on the relative sizes of the Republiv and the CIS?

    Next up: Pursuit of Peace
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-02-23 at 05:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Edit: Idle thought, has there ever been a figure on the relative sizes of the Republiv and the CIS?
    This map, from The Essential Atlas, outlines more or less starting territories for the Republic (in blue) and CIS (in maroon), during the first year of the Clone Wars (in the Legends version). However, raw territory doesn't reveal a whole lot. Well over half of the galactic population lives in the Core and Colonies (the two inner rings) and the population of huge portions of the Outer Rim is effectively nil by comparison. Coruscant's trillion-plus residents alone beats whole sectors. However, the CIS does hold a number of heavily settled rim areas along major hyperlanes. Plausibly the CIS only represented around 10% of the galactic population (that's still quadrillions of people).

    At the same time, industrial output in Star Wars doesn't scale with population at all, with a handful of major factory worlds and shipyard planets outputting the majority of the military materiel of the entire galaxy. Kuat, all by itself, could reasonably be credited with a double-digit percentage of total galactic military production. The CIS, through its control of the major trade conglomerates, was much closer to parity with the Republic in terms of military output at the beginning of the Clone Wars. However, during the conflict Palpatine's militarization and reformation of the economy utterly buried the CIS by the end of the war. There's an extremely obvious and almost certainly deliberate historical parallel here, but forum rules prohibit discussing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I wonder if someone has managed to make a timeline of this show
    Indeed they have, an offical one even.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    This map, from The Essential Atlas, outlines more or less starting territories for the Republic (in blue) and CIS (in maroon), during the first year of the Clone Wars (in the Legends version).
    Thanks. You know I keep forgetting that the Unknown Regions make up a whopping 1/3 of the glalxy, what's up with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Indeed they have, an offical one even.
    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Thanks. You know I keep forgetting that the Unknown Regions make up a whopping 1/3 of the glalxy, what's up with that?
    Hyperspace anomalies preventing exploration to the 'west' of the galactic core established as a containment measure by...beings you're about to encounter 5 episodes down the line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Hyperspace anomalies preventing exploration to the 'west' of the galactic core established as a containment measure by...beings you're about to encounter 5 episodes down the line.
    As someone who watched the whole series, I totally forgot about this I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    As someone who watched the whole series, I totally forgot about this I guess.
    Spoiler: complex bit of Legends/TCW lore crossover
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    So this is one of those weird things where since TCW is part of both continuities, elements from it got integrated into each continuity in different ways. Specifically, since TCW is effectively the first expanded universe to be published for the Disney canon it became foundational, but for Legends, since it was among the last legends sources to see publication, it was used to integrate and retcon a bunch of stuff.

    The unknown regions being primarily a huge chunk of the galactic west in Star Wars is mostly an artifact of the galactic map drawn for the New Jedi Order book series. The people behind that map simply decided that the unknown regions - which has been established as being a huge chunk of the galaxy in Vision of the Future - was broadly confined to one side of the galaxy. This facilitated the overall invasion narrative of the NJO, so that's fine but there was no coherent explanation at that time. It was only post-NJO when this bit of galactic geography was attributed to the actions of the Celestials, a phenomenally powerful progenitor groups of people/gods/Force entities. A number of other bizarre and astrophysically impossible bits of Star Wars lore were glommed together under that umbrella in the Essential Atlas and SWTOR when they curated the Pre-Republic history of Star Wars somewhat (though SWTOR actually opens up a bunch of the galactic west as Zakuul territory during later expansions, but I guess that navigation data was lost as some point after the war ended). Ultimately the beings known as The Ones, who appear in the Mortis arc of TCW, were explicitly labeled as Celestials in some of the final Legends novels. The Disney canon does not label the Ones as Celestials (it's history is muddled and extremely patchy compared to Legends, but grows to resemble that of Legends more and more over time so the broad strokes of Legends will probably ultimately remain accurate), however Rebels does have Palpatine refer to the Ones as 'The Mortis Gods' which certainly affords them the agency for this sort of thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Hyperspace anomalies preventing exploration to the 'west' of the galactic core established as a containment measure by...beings you're about to encounter 5 episodes down the line.
    Uuuuuuuugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Season 3, Episode 11, Pursuit of Peace
    The senate is outraged by the unprovoked attack during peace talks (what do you mean, "unprovoked"? You people are at war!) and the kaminoan senator suggests purchasing five millions clones [insert joke about the sacles of SW armies here] which would be payed by taking a huge loan from the Interplanetary Banking Clan. Padmé and Bail of course objects and Amidala guesses that the attack was an attempt to sabotage the peace talks as she knows for a fact not everybody in the CIS wants to fight. This gets her called a traitor by the vampire-looking proto-imperial senator who got killed last season. This is the moment Mas amedda chooses to show a message sent by Count Dooku: he accuses the republic of an attack on their soil that killed Mina Bontari (well, that was fast) and therefore withdraws the peace proposal offered by the CIS. The Senate once more descends into chaos.

    Amidala, Organa and Farr meet up to discuss their next move and Bail says that Republic spies have evidence that Dooku had Bontari killed. I'm surprised he's got access to that intel, I thought Palpatine would have had a better grasp on Republic Intelligence. they resolve to keep fighting the bill, but they're gonna need ammunition. "But we can't afford ammunition, remember?" says Farr. God that joke was so bad that I first thought he was legitemately confused, there. PAdmé and him go to the IBC to learn what interest rates they plan on demanding of the Senate. "You know these banking Clans people, plus you owe me for telling such a bad joke." Hey remember that ime you betrayed your oath to the Republic and almost had your people turn to the other side? Fun times.

    The Banking Clan plans to demand an outrageous 25% of interest instead of their usual 10%. Oh, and the seppies have already secured a loan to fund 3 millions more droids. "They would wipe us out". Would they, though? B1s are pretty ****. Back with Organa, Padmé explains that the interests alone would be enough to bankrupt the Republic which, because of the war, already has underfunded infrastructure, healthcare and education. So, it's basically guaranteed that the IBC would never get their money back, then? Bail points out that this makes their job of arguing against that proposal that much easier. In fact, they only need a handful senators more to get a majority. However many senators have received threats to dissuade them from voting against the bill. Indeed, we see Farr being beaten by a selkath and another amphibious alien who I think worked with Bane on the senate attack (if that's the case I can only wonder how he still is on Coruscant).

    The next morning, several senators refuse to listen to Pdamé, while Farr, his arm in a cast and accompanied by his future murderer, states that he intends to vote against, no matter what. Meanwhile in a twi'lekki strip club the two thugs report to Dooku who orders them to assassinate Padmé. Because that worked out so well the twenty-seven last times. Padmé askas Bail, the finest orator she knows, to speak beofre the full Senate to oppose the bill. Isn't that exactly what he's been doing? He goes to work on a speech while she visits some unconviced senators. One of whom is a quarren who A) doesn't want to get beat up, B) doesn't care about the casualties of war since clones were bred for that purpose, C) only cares about his constituents since they are the ones who put him in office. When asked when was the last time he spoke to one of the people he represents he replies that would be about the same time either of them (Farr is also there) did, which hits Amidala close to home. However he wants to know Organa's stance on this (hasn't he made that pretty clear allready) and will listen to what he has to say.

    On her way home, Padmé is attacked by the two hitmen (who killed her driver) and is saved by two police droids who distract the assasins long enought for her to steal a jetbike. The selkath manages to tether himself to her bike while the other follow on his own bike. There's a chase scene during which the selkath survives a truly absurd amount of high-speed collisions and they attract some more police droids, one of them even drops his drink(-analog?) as they pass his car by. Fifth Element homage? Eventually PAdmé gets arrested for stealing the bike while the "bounty hunters" make their escape. Back in her appartments, Padmé laments the state of democracy and her aid, Tekla says that unlike the other politicians, Pdamé does listen to her people. This prompts Amidala (clearly thinking back to the quarren's comment) to ask her how her family is doing and how the war is affecting them all, in details.

    the next morning, Organa is attacked by the hitmen, but he's apparently the only politician on the planet to have a security detail and the two are captured by Alderaani guards and coruscanti police. However Organa is injured in the kerfuffle. Organa can't even stand on his own right now so he begs Padmé to deliver a speech in his stead before passing out. Padmé deson't feel she's up to it, as the senators are expecting "the great bail Organa" and she's not nearly as respected but Tekla convinces her to speak up saying that they will listen to her becasue she listens to the people. Padmé makes a passionated speech where she explains that the republic is loosing track of what it is fighting for and that her aide and many of their people live in squalor (Tekla's district apparently has no electricity or running water so her children can only bathe once every two weeks. I get your point Padmé but maybe pay her more?) so they mustn't divert even more funds to war. The speech is broadcasted all over Corsucant and the whole Senate applauds.

    Cut to Palpatine's office. He finds it remarkable that one could have all the power in the Galaxy but a simple senator's words can sway the thoughts of millions.
    Spoiler: hmm, if only there were a word for this...
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    Amedda asks him what he plans to do about it and he answers that they must adhere to the principles of democracy... for now.




    Heh, back to mediocre-town. This feels redundant with the previous episode. I'm a bit surprised that Dooku would be the ones to hire the bounty hunters rather than sidious or the Banking Clan. I mean, he really isn't supposed to be in favor of increased Republican military spending. By the way, nothing to indicate that IBC guy lying about the Seppies increasing their own military so, war soon lost I guess? I never really figured that Organa had so much more presence in the senate than Padmé. Makes sense, he was a runner-up for Chancellor (sorta: Organa, Antilles, who's keeping track?). While Padmé's speech was neat, it didn't really adress the issue of the loan did it? I owuld say the whole thing is rather forgetable except the scene between PAdmé and her aide (a nice touch) and Palpatine's bit at the end. Also I guess this demonstrates that in this show Amedda is in on the plan to eventually form the Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Thanks. You know I keep forgetting that the Unknown Regions make up a whopping 1/3 of the glalxy, what's up with that?
    I would suggest that what's up with that is that some of the EU writers wanted unexplored space and didn't care about how it ties in with the movies; it is also worth mentioning that the Unknown Regions first appeared in a book where hyperspace travel times were represented as normally being on the order of days to weeks, if not longer, despite hyperspace travel times in the movies appearing to be on the order of hours (and quite possibly less) to maybe a day at the outside, and despite the abundance of small hyperspace-capable craft, such as starfighters, whose interiors are rather ill-suited to prolonged occupancy.

    Also, unless you want to argue that Jocasta Nu is either monumentally stupid or willfully ignorant in addition to being arrogant when she claimed that "if something does not appear in the Jedi Archives then it does not exist," I would suggest that the Unknown Reaches cannot have existed as such in the waning days of the Republic, because a blanket claim such as that from someone who should know what she's talking about only makes sense if the galaxy is largely explored and the Jedi Archives are regularly updated with information from a large part of it.

    I would further suggest that the "hyperspace travel is only generally feasible on well-mapped routes due to (dangerous things)" explanation for the existence of the Unknown Regions does not fit particularly well with the movies, either - places like Hoth and Dagobah seem like places more likely to be marked with the hyperspace equivalent of "dangerous reef here" than to be on or particularly near well-mapped regions of hyperspace; something like the Rebel fleet rendezvous at the end of The Empire Strikes Back seems like an unlikely area to have been explored at all, given that it's seemingly a considerable distance outside of the galaxy and thus is unlikely to have been an interesting direction of exploration for trade, colonization, or resource exploitation.

    The Unknown Reaches make somewhat more sense if they're a result of a fragmentation of information under or after the fall of the Empire, though even then that has some issues with the apparent abundance of freelance traders, independent smugglers, and even personal hyperspace-capable starships which are seemingly available to the not-especially-wealthy-and-well-connected - Luke and Obi-Wan were able to put together the 2,000-credit down payment on their ticket to Alderaan with whatever they had on them and the proceeds from the sale of Luke's used and slightly out-of-style sportscar-analogue of a landspeeder, and Luke claimed that Han's initial asking price of 10,000 credits was almost enough to buy their own ship - as navigational information for at least the local region or common trade destinations would need to be available to these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Also, unless you want to argue that Jocasta Nu is either monumentally stupid or willfully ignorant in addition to being arrogant when she claimed that "if something does not appear in the Jedi Archives then it does not exist,"
    She was obviously a Sith, dealing in absolutes like that.

    Anyway, I feel like there's some conflating Unknown Regions and Wild Space (not your post, but a couple others generally). All Wild Space is Unknown Regions, but not all Unknown Regions is Wild Space. Unknown Regions is just what's unmapped, while Wild Space is where weird or complex or dynamic shifts and changes are happening, making it difficult to navigate and explore.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-02-25 at 10:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson
    I would suggest that what's up with that is that some of the EU writers wanted unexplored space and didn't care about how it ties in with the movies; it is also worth mentioning that the Unknown Regions first appeared in a book where hyperspace travel times were represented as normally being on the order of days to weeks, if not longer, despite hyperspace travel times in the movies appearing to be on the order of hours (and quite possibly less) to maybe a day at the outside, and despite the abundance of small hyperspace-capable craft, such as starfighters, whose interiors are rather ill-suited to prolonged occupancy.
    Hyperspace travel can take days to weeks, or it can take mere hours. It depends on the speed of the ship in question - military vessels and the Millennium Falcon are very fast compared to typical civilian vessels - and the stability of the hyperlane. Hyperspace is like the internet, the better the connection the faster the packets move, and the variance between the very best connections, the superhyperlanes like the Hydian Way, and a ship charting its own course in unknown space are vast.

    Also, unless you want to argue that Jocasta Nu is either monumentally stupid or willfully ignorant in addition to being arrogant when she claimed that "if something does not appear in the Jedi Archives then it does not exist," I would suggest that the Unknown Reaches cannot have existed as such in the waning days of the Republic, because a blanket claim such as that from someone who should know what she's talking about only makes sense if the galaxy is largely explored and the Jedi Archives are regularly updated with information from a large part of it.
    You can map things in space without visiting them. In fact, you can map them without actually seeing them directly at all (that's how exoplanets get discovered). There is absolutely nothing contradictory about the Jedi Archives having a complete stellar and even planetary catalog of the galaxy and at the same time having no idea whatsoever what lives in a huge chunk of the galaxy.

    I would further suggest that the "hyperspace travel is only generally feasible on well-mapped routes due to (dangerous things)" explanation for the existence of the Unknown Regions does not fit particularly well with the movies, either - places like Hoth and Dagobah seem like places more likely to be marked with the hyperspace equivalent of "dangerous reef here" than to be on or particularly near well-mapped regions of hyperspace; something like the Rebel fleet rendezvous at the end of The Empire Strikes Back seems like an unlikely area to have been explored at all, given that it's seemingly a considerable distance outside of the galaxy and thus is unlikely to have been an interesting direction of exploration for trade, colonization, or resource exploitation.
    Hyperspace travel is travel between star systems, the actual content of those star systems is almost completely irrelevant to how difficult it is to reach them. The dangers of hyperspace are mostly stellar scale or larger problems - like supernovas and black holes. The galactic core is nearly impassable via hyperspace because the stars are so close together. At the end of ESB the Rebel Fleet specifically chose to travel above the galactic plane, this was not particularly dangerous since there's nothing in the way out there, though it was surely extremely fuel intensive (maybe they had a surplus at that point).


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Anyway, I feel like there's some conflating Unknown Regions and Wild Space (not your post, but a couple others generally). All Wild Space is Unknown Regions, but not all Unknown Regions is Wild Space. Unknown Regions is just what's unmapped, while Wild Space is where weird or complex or dynamic shifts and changes are happening, making it difficult to navigate and explore.
    That's the Disney canon definition. The Legends definition is different. In Legends Wild Space is the marginal section of space that has been partially explored between known space and the Unknown Regions. Basically the relationship flips between the two versions of canon for no good reason.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Hyperspace travel can take days to weeks, or it can take mere hours. It depends on the speed of the ship in question - military vessels and the Millennium Falcon are very fast compared to typical civilian vessels - and the stability of the hyperlane. Hyperspace is like the internet, the better the connection the faster the packets move, and the variance between the very best connections, the superhyperlanes like the Hydian Way, and a ship charting its own course in unknown space are vast.
    All of this is a bunch of stuff made up for the EU that has no real support in the movies. Also, it's awfully convenient that every location in the movies apparently just happens to be somewhere with a good connection - even though Kamino's reclusive and isolationist while Tatooine's supposed to be a relatively lawless backwater - and every hyperspace journey, including the one on the presumably-civilian AA-9 freighter that Anakin and Padme took from Coruscant to Naboo in Attack of the Clones, appears to take not more than a day.

    You can map things in space without visiting them. In fact, you can map them without actually seeing them directly at all (that's how exoplanets get discovered). There is absolutely nothing contradictory about the Jedi Archives having a complete stellar and even planetary catalog of the galaxy and at the same time having no idea whatsoever what lives in a huge chunk of the galaxy.
    "If an item does not appear in the Archives, then it does not exist." A rather broader statement than "If a planet or star does not appear in our records, then it does not exist," no?

    The dangers of hyperspace are mostly stellar scale or larger problems - like supernovas and black holes.
    Supernovae are essentially static obstacles over a timescale of weeks, or even months, when you're dealing with the kinds of distances you'd be looking at for interstellar travel; on top of that, supernovae are rare even when you're talking about an entire galaxy's worth of stars, and they also affect a relatively small area (NASA, for example, suggests that a supernova would need to occur within 50 lightyears of Earth to have a significant deleterious effect on the planet; the Milky Way, for comparison, is ~100,000 lightyears in diameter while the Galaxy Far Far Away was canonically ~120,000 lightyears last I knew).

    Given that EU material appears to regard the effect of realspace objects on hyperspace as something gravitational (the various interdictors of the EU use "gravity well projectors" to interfere with hyperspace travel), or at least mass-related (massive objects are said to project "mass shadows" in hyperspace), in nature, there should not be any significant difference between a black hole and a similarly-massive star at any reasonable distance from the two bodies.

    Also, if you look at A New Hope, Han brings up "fly[ing] through a star" and "bounc[ing] too close to a supernova" as risks associated with blind or ill-planned hyperjumps. Flying through a star implies that you're actually hitting it in some sense; "bouncing" suggests dropping out of hyperspace and then jumping back into it, which w.r.t. supernovae could be an issue if you come out in the middle of the wave of gamma rays released by it or something else like that. We also see one concrete example of a thing which could be a threat to hypertravel in the movie: the "uncharted meteor shower" that was Alderaan, which strikes the Millennium Falcon after it drops out of hyperspace after leaving Tatooine. Between the verbiage used and what we actually see occur in the movie, this suggests that the reason why making "blind" hyperjumps is a bad idea has a lot in common with why jumping into water when you don't know what lies beneath the surface is a bad idea: You need to know what's on the other end of your jump so that you can avoid putting yourself into a dangerous situation. These are concrete, readily-understandable dangers which do not need the EU's nebulous "hyperspace anomalies," even if realistically speaking it seems somewhat unlikely that randomly jumping through hyperspace would actually put you into such a situation.

    Moreover, that "uncharted meteor shower" that the Millennium Falcon ran into at the former location of Alderaan? That's exactly the sort of thing which you'd want to know about before jumping into a star system, it's apparently the sort of thing that does show up on the navigational charts that Han Solo has given that he complains that that one isn't on any of his charts, and it's something that would be quite difficult to map at astronomical distances. Imagine if Death Squadron had come out of hyperspace in the Hoth asteroid field rather than in clear space, for instance - the Star Destroyers had trouble enough with it just moving into it in real space, where their turbolasers could afford them some protection against the asteroids.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-02-26 at 02:17 AM.

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    Season 3, Episode 12: Nightsisters
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    On Serenno, Darth Tyranus is called by his Master. "I feel a disturbance in the Force", of course you do. Sidious can feel Asajj Ventress's growing strength in the Force and he worries that his apprentice is planning to overthrow him and install her as the next Sith Lady. He demands Tyranus proves his loyalty by having Ventress eliminated which he reluctantly agrees to. Meanwhile Asajj is fighting a space battle against Anakin, Obi-Wan and their forces. There's a bit of banter between the two Jedi (they really do sound like friends, now) and both Ventress and Kenobi crash-land into a bizarrely empty hangar on the Separatist flagship with Anakin following. The assassin calls Dooku for help (what can he do?) stating that she's surrounded (the Jedi should be, but okay). Her master says that she's "failed him for the last time" (cute) and that he's recalled her reinforcements and that he is renouncing her apprenticeship and leaving her to die. The Jedi order Ventress to surrender, which she refuses and start fighting one against two. while she could fight either one, she can't take both and is clearly loosing. In desperation she manages to strangle them both (a nice touch, that's the dark Side for you). Dooku meanwhile, isn't taking any chances and orders the rest of the fleet to open fire on their command ship. (Yularen must be soooo confused.) As the ship start to fall apart both the Jedi and Ventress escape on-board their surprisingly still functionnal fighters but Assajj's is caught in the explosion of the cruiser. Dooku orders his fleet to retreat.

    Some time later, Tyranus calls Sidious to report on Ventress's death and the sith Master is content. Shouldn't be, though, because a scavenger crew (the leader of which appears to be the guy Padmé stole a bike from last time) find her still alive in her ship and take her aboard. She orders them to take her to Dathomir and when they refuse, saying there are only witches and fog there, she murders them all and flies the ship herself. She arrives at some kind of temple and his greeted by the Nightsisters who want to kill her for being an outsider, which she denies. She is saved by the arrival of the Nightsisters' leader: Mother Talzin but she passes out from her wounds/exhaustion. Talzin commences a ritual to heal her using the Water of Backstory Exposition Life
    which causes her to dream of her past. As a baby Talein was "forced to give [her] up to protect the clan" to some guy of the same species as the jerk instructor on Kamino. When she was, like, ten, that man, her master, was killed by some weeqays attacking a city. A random Jedi felt her strength in the Force and took her under his wing. Her luck with weeqays didn't improve though, since her master was killed by some a few years later (she had hair on her head at the time) which drove her towards the Dark Side. She was then taken in by Dooku and we got back to where we were.

    Now fully healed, Ventress decides to take revenge on Count Dooku and Talzin is 100% supportive of that. She gives her the two best warriors of the tribe, a potion of invisibility a poison dart to dull Tyranus's senses and trouble his vision (instead of, you know, kill him) and lightsabers. Should they fail, it would be better for Dooku to think Jedi were behind this attack. Say what you will of Talzin but she is a supportive mother. The three sneak into Dooku's palace with no difficulty and find him sleeping in his room. The Sith Lord apparently still adhere to the Jedi precept of sleeping without a bedsheet, so I guess he's not totally corrupt. Assajj blows the dart into his neck, which wakes him up. He grabs his lightsaber and realizing he can't see his opponents, he simply states that "I don't need my eyes to see you, Jedi"and fight all three of them with his eyes closed. while drugged up. In his pajamas. Dooku's a badass. The fight moves to his office/throne room and, when they manage to disarm him, he fries the **** out of all three at once before yeeting them through his window. This dispells their invisibility and when one of the sisters comment on Dooku's power Ventress angrily replies that she warned them. Girl, you said to be on their guards, not that he could thrown ****ing elictricity out of his fingers!

    The Nightsisters get back to Dathomir with their tails between their legs but Mother Talzin is unfazed: now Dooku will feel vulnerable and seek a replacement for Ventress. If I were him I'd have my bodyguards closer to my bedroom, but whatever. Talzin then calls Dooku and says that she's "seen" Ventress's death and offers him a replacement. MAybe a male from her planet, this time? Once the communication is over she reassures ventress that killing Dooku is still the plan.


    Spoiler: My thoughts
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    And we're back to he good stuff. This might just be my favourite episode of the season. Maybe it's just that I was starved for some lightsaber action. Can you believe we went ten episodes without a proper duel?! Dooku and ventress parting ways is the first shake up to the status quo since season 1. in retrospect I'm a bit disappojnted that we didn't see them interact more before this, besides "here are your orders -yes master," as this would have made it more impactful (especially since Doku says she's "important to him.") and would have allowed to avoid some of that clunky exposition of her backstory. This was a villain focused episode and it was about time the Dark Side stepped into the paradoxical spotlight!

    Sidious: His actions are a tad nonsensical here. He says he can sense Ventress's power but if that so why does he accept Tyranus's words that she is dead? Can't he sense that she isn't? while I don't think Dooku had any precise plan to take him out in mind, I suspect he was right that Tyranus inteded to promote ventress to full Sith eventually. He asks for Tyranus's personal loyalty but doesn't that go straight agaisnt the Rule of Two? The Apprentice is supposed to plot behind the Master's back. Besides if he's worried Dooku is plotting against him, sin't tasking him with taking ventress out a huge risk? if not for the need of the plot to move in the right way, I feel like Sidious would have arranged Assajj's death on his own behind Dooku's back. I guess he probably feels confident that Dooku can't touch him until the war is over and maybe he wasn't entirely sure he'd have Ankin on his side by then, but then that just raises the question of what he told Tyranus the end-game for the war was. This isn't really a detriment to the episode, though, he's only there to create a rift.

    Dooku: About time he did something in person, that one. And that's only because somebody attacked him. Still this episode really shows how dangerous he is in a fight. When it comes to mistaking the Sisters as Jedi a thing bugs me: while I can forgive him not recognizing Ventress's presence in the Force because of the poison, not being surprised by not feeling the Light that would accompany Jedi beacuse RotJ implies that the more dipped you are in the Dark Side the less you can feel the Light in people and I can accept that he truly believes the JEdi would send assassins after him; does he really thik the Jedi can turn invisible? I get not questionning it during the fight but maybe he'll get suspicious in later episodes because he seems to have an history with Talzin (she's got his number) so he may know her powers and the timing of her call was suspiscious as all heck.

    The Nightsisters: I know them from Legends, rather, I know they are in various books and I played Empire at war: Forces of Corruption where you can find Silri a Nightsister who rides a Rancor, which is awesome, and has a lightwhip, which is ocnfusing. I think that before this show, Legends presented them as just another dark Side cult which is boring. I like the angle this show is going for: as a group unrelated to the Jedi, they don't understand the Force in terms of Dark and Light which are Jedi concepts (and Sith but they're essentially Jedi schismatics) and have develloped other abilities like those potions. i wonder what Talzin's game is exactly. I don't think she's taking all those risks just for Ventress but I don't know why she would want Dooku dead. Also who was that guy who was apparently powerful enough to threaten the clan but got murdered by some random weeqays?

    Ventress: Hey look who just got a boatload of characterization! Turns out the assasin is a troubled youth going from Master to Master. No wonder she takes Dooku's betrayal so poorly. Especially since he was a Master in both of the ways her previous Masters were: an owner and a teacher. There's a good chance she's just latching on another Mistress with Talzin here, though. Obviously she can't kill Dooku, so I wonder where her story is leading to. Die trying? Ally with the Jedi? I find both unlikely. Maybe just say "**** it" and leave the war behind to become her own person? We'll see. Well, most of you already know, I guess, so I'll see. One nitpick: I don't really buy her having been a padawan for years and this not having come up even once before in the show.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  26. - Top - End - #386
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    Unpopular opinion: lightsaber duels are not necessary in Star Wars, they are best when there is proper emotional and weight behind them, and over-reliance on needing "cool" lightsaber duels was a staggering weakness in the prequel trilogy and a full-on detriment in the sequel trilogy.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    As far as the Rule of Two goes, the apprentice is only allowed and expected to plot to the extent that the master cant catch him at it. If the apprentice gets caught, then the master is allowed and expected to intervene. Being able to successfully plot around your master is the sign that its time for the apprentice to graduate.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Unpopular opinion: lightsaber duels are not necessary in Star Wars, they are best when there is proper emotional and weight behind them, and over-reliance on needing "cool" lightsaber duels was a staggering weakness in the prequel trilogy and a full-on detriment in the sequel trilogy.
    All fights are best when there is emotional weight behind it and spectacle isn't a substitute for a good story but spectacle is good to and when I go to the Star Wars I expect some cool fights. Not like one fight every episode but ten episodes without one is a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As far as the Rule of Two goes, the apprentice is only allowed and expected to plot to the extent that the master cant catch him at it. If the apprentice gets caught, then the master is allowed and expected to intervene. Being able to successfully plot around your master is the sign that its time for the apprentice to graduate.
    Sure but Dooku didn't plot anything as far as we know. Him tutoring Ventress wasn't a secret or anything. Besides, as I said I don't mind Sidious wanting to pre-emptively remove Ventress, what I think goes against the rule of Two is the demand that Tyranus be loyal to him. He's not supposed to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  29. - Top - End - #389
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sure but Dooku didn't plot anything as far as we know. Him tutoring Ventress wasn't a secret or anything. Besides, as I said I don't mind Sidious wanting to pre-emptively remove Ventress, what I think goes against the rule of Two is the demand that Tyranus be loyal to him. He's not supposed to be.
    The rule of two uses the terms Master and Apprentice deliberately. The Master is in charge, and the apprentice is expected to follow him until he is ready to claim the title for himself.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Unpopular opinion: lightsaber duels are not necessary in Star Wars, they are best when there is proper emotional and weight behind them, and over-reliance on needing "cool" lightsaber duels was a staggering weakness in the prequel trilogy and a full-on detriment in the sequel trilogy.
    To support this Star Wars: A New Hope only had one 'duel' and it had the emotional weight and little to none of the flash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sure but Dooku didn't plot anything as far as we know. Him tutoring Ventress wasn't a secret or anything. Besides, as I said I don't mind Sidious wanting to pre-emptively remove Ventress, what I think goes against the rule of Two is the demand that Tyranus be loyal to him. He's not supposed to be.
    There is likely an unwritten rule of the Sith where you are meant to obey your master until you can remove them - Palpatine wanted something it was Dooku's job to do it, why Palpatine wanted it and what reasons he had for wanting it and whether Dooku succeeded at it are likely not relevant providing that Dooku gave it a reasonable attempt.

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