Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Sapphire Guard]

They broke 'the laws of time' which means 'spoils the movies'

[Fyraltari]

I considered Citadel to be one of the better arcs, definitely a good palate cleanser after Mortis. Mortis is.... somewhat decent if you interpret it as a "vision quest"-like thing, but even then it has some clear holes in the plot and doesn't quite go anywhere.

Having watched the first episode, yeah. It's much better.

The Mortis arc was done too soon, I think. Not that "The main cast zones out and has a vision quest" can't slot into almost any time in the story, it's just that the show wasn't ready for it yet. Clone Wars, despite getting better still hadn't exactly found the right balance yet, it just wasn't ready to go that metaphysical. Later seasons totally could have pulled Mortis off, though. Rebels could, too. Honestly, Rebels got weirder, but managed to keep up.

I don't think so. The whole prophecy business just simply doesn't square with Vader's character. I simply don't see how you could make it work. And your mileage may vary, but I, for one, find the idea of embodiments of the "Sides" of the Force, and of the Balance (between both Sides) to be utterly worthless.

That's definitely part of it. TCW handles similar elements better later on too.

I think the real problem with Mortis is that it's a vision quest without any real quest attached. I mean, it can be interpreted that the Celestials are testing Anakin and that he ostensibly fails, but what are they testing him for? What was he supposed to do? It's extremely muddled.

No, no, no, no. It's dumber than that. If this was some kind of test, he didn't fail, he bloody passed since the Father tells him he's on the right course. But he also says that he should "beware his heart" meaning that him sidong with Sidious to save Padmé was him failing to fullfill the Prophecy, except that the Father took away the memories that would have helped preventing him to make that choice. It's impressive how much stupid there is in this. The longer you look the more stupid you find.

They really had no idea what they were trying to say with these episodes.

[Peelee]

The whole prophecy business just simply doesn't square with Vader's character. I simply don't see how you could make it work. And your mileage may vary, but I, for one, find the idea of embodiments of the "Sides" of the Force, and of the Balance (between both Sides) to be utterly worthless.

Indeed. Having a prophecy to start with was a horrible idea and went against both established canon and future canon. "Always in motion is the future", that's how it is. Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen. Every time someone relies too much on visions of the future, it bites them in the ass. So what the hell was a prophecy supposed to accomplish? "The future is uncertain and can proceed in unexpected ways, so here's some writing set in stone"? It was a terrible idea when Lucas wrote it, it panned out terribly, and it has been terrible in every reference. They should just let it go already.

[dancrilis]

Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen.

Unless it did.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed. Having a prophecy to start with was a horrible idea and went against both established canon and future canon. "Always in motion is the future", that's how it is. Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen. Every time someone relies too much on visions of the future, it bites them in the ass. So what the hell was a prophecy supposed to accomplish? "The future is uncertain and can proceed in unexpected ways, so here's some writing set in stone"? It was a terrible idea when Lucas wrote it, it panned out terribly, and it has been terrible in every reference. They should just let it go already.

This is all very sound and valid but, speaking for myself, it's not much of a problem. Yoda's line could be explained as "I once trusted a prophecy and, boy, dit it bite me in my sorry little green bottom" and the emperor as being wrong because evil bad guy.
Or you could say that The Prophecy^tm is different from regular old visions (who always seem to come true anyway) because instead of being "hey, here's what's going to happen to you in two hours" it's more of a religious-eschatologic thing. Like, it's the coming of The Chosen One^tm who will bring Balance to our deity-thing that underpins the universe and bring a golden age as everybody reaches enlightenment or something.

And that's exactly my problem with it. It's a thousand-year old prophecy, it's obviously important but it has nothing to do with Anakin's arc. It's entirely superfluous. And it's so absurdly vague people aren't sure what it even means. It just pollutes the story by adding another retcon to Anakin's turn and the first one was allready pretty bad.

Unless it did.

I'm not going to bet that everything went according to the plan of the guy who lost his apprentice, his prized super-weapon (again), his flagship, a legion of his best troops, his ****ing life and whose Empire crumbled as a direct consequence of that defeat.

[Kornaki]

I'm not going to bet that everything went according to the plan of the guy who lost his apprentice, his prized super-weapon (again), his flagship, a legion of his best troops, his ****ing life and whose Empire crumbled as a direct consequence of that defeat.

And 30 years later he has an army of superweapons, the military might of the good guys is stripped to nothing, and something about Rey? I'm not really clear on what the last step was there. But it didn't seem like he lost much anyway.

[Fyraltari]

And 30 years later he has an army of superweapons, the military might of the good guys is stripped to nothing, and something about Rey? I'm not really clear on what the last step was there. But it didn't seem like he lost much anyway.

Sounds like he lost thirty years. Like, in what way was his defeat at Endor necessary to get all this?

[Mechalich]

And that's exactly my problem with it. It's a thousand-year old prophecy, it's obviously important but it has nothing to do with Anakin's arc. It's entirely superfluous. And it's so absurdly vague people aren't sure what it even means. It just pollutes the story by adding another retcon to Anakin's turn and the first one was allready pretty bad.

The prophecy's only real purpose in the story of the Prequels is that it serves as the justification for why the Jedi Order actually agrees to break a whole bunch of rules and train Anakin in spite of his advanced age and unusual origins.

Now, it is important to the story that Anakin has a unique background, that he's not raised in the temple and doesn't think along the same lines as all the other Jedi around him. Social isolation and misinterpretation of the Jedi philosophy is a big part of why Anakin ultimately falls. So some justification for why the Jedi Order allowed this to happen is important, but a thousand-year prophecy was a terrible choice.

A better option would have been to have the Sith be aware of Anakin's vast talents and have Darth Maul try to kidnap him during TPM, in which case the Jedi could agree to train Anakin for his own safety.

[dancrilis]

Sounds like he lost thirty years. Like, in what way was his defeat at Endor necessary to get all this?

It isn't about winning the game it is about playing the game.

Essentially it is possible that Palpatine won the game 'Conquer the Galaxy' and then he started a game of its expansion story 'Run the Galaxy' and it just was not as good a game in his view so he reset the board and restarted the game he actually liked.

[Fyraltari]

It isn't about winning the game it is about playing the game.

Essentially it is possible that Palpatine won the game 'Conquer the Galaxy' and then he started a game of its expansion story 'Run the Galaxy' and it just was not as good a game in his view so he reset the board and restarted the game he actually liked.

That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.

[dancrilis]

That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.

If it is not what happened how else to you suppose everything had proceeded as the Emperor had forseen (also it makes the sequels make much more sense).

[Fyraltari]

If it is not what happened how else to you suppose everything had proceeded as the Emporer had forseen (also it makes the sequels make much more sense).

It did not, that's my point. Sidious was lying as he often does. We know this because he admits in an earlier scene to not knowing Luke was even there.

The sequels don't make sense, especially when it comes to Sidious and I see no reason to make excuses for them.

[dancrilis]

It did not, that's my point.

That was Peelee's statement - the discussion is on what if it did.

Everything did not proceed as the Emperor had forseen.

Unless it did.

If everything did proceed as the Emperor had forseen, then it did proceed as the Emperor had forseen and as such his 'defeat' was part of 'the plan'.

Sidious was lying as he often does. We know this because he admits in an earlier scene to not knowing Luke was even there.

You believe that he was lying because you believe he was telling the truth about Luke - if you don't trust him on forseeing the future why trust him on not sensing Luke?

[Fyraltari]

That was Peelee's statement - the discussion is on what if it did.


If everything did proceed as the Emperor had forseen, then it did proceed as the Emperor had forseen and as such his 'defeat' was part of 'the plan'.

Well, no, if everything proceeded as Sidious had foreseen, then Luke would have killed Vader, turned to the Dark Side and become Sidious's new apprentice while the Rebel Alliance would have been crushed by the Second Death Star and Sidious would have gone on ruling the galaxy and blowing up planets to his heart's content.

You believe that he was lying because you believe he was telling the truth about Luke - if you don't trust him on forseeing the future why trust him on not sensing Luke?

Because of context. In one occasion he was plotting his moves with his subordinate (and admitting failure on his part) and in the other he was trying to crush his opponent's hopes. He has a clear reason to lie in the second case but not in the first.

[dancrilis]

Well, no, if everything proceeded as Sidious had foreseen, then Luke would have killed Vader, turned to the Dark Side and become Sidious's new apprentice while the Rebel Alliance would have been crushed by the Second Death Star and Sidious would have gone on ruling the galaxy and blowing up planets to his heart's content.

That would only make sense if he wanted to continue to rule the galaxy - rather then do something else.

Because of context. In one occasion he was plotting his moves with his subordinate (and admitting failure on his part) and in the other he was trying to crush his opponent's hopes. He has a clear reason to lie in the second case but not in the first.

If he was plotting to encourage Vader to move against him them showing weakness (lack of knowledge) to Vader makes sense- then later he could mock Luke with the truth which Vader assumes is a lie because of the lie he told Vader earlier.

[Peelee]

That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.

Funny, that's how I feel about Palpatine coming back to life.

You just had to put the word "theory" in there and make my joke lose a little punch, didn't you?

[Keltest]

Funny, that's how I feel about Palpatine coming back to life.

You just had to put the word "theory" in there and make my joke lose a little punch, didn't you?

As far as im concerned, all the sequel movies are only theoretically canon, so i think it works out.

[Fyraltari]

You just had to put the word "theory" in there and make my joke lose a little punch, didn't you?

As far as im concerned, all the sequel movies are only theoretically canon, so i think it works out.

Either you discard the notion of canon (which is entirely valid a position to make, just because the bigwigs of Disney bought Lucasfilm doesn't mean they get to decide which stories you should consider more important) or you accept all of it. "As far as I'm concerned" and "canon" are rather contradictory phrases.

[Keltest]

Either you discard the notion of canon (which is entirely valid a position to make, just because the bigwigs of Disney bought Lucasfilm doesn't mean they get to decide which stories you should consider more important) or you accept all of it. "As far as I'm concerned" and "canon" are rather contradictory phrases.

Alternatively, i was cracking a joke at the expense of the sequels and my statement should not be read as a literal transcription of my actual opinion.

[dancrilis]

That'd be an interesting theory if there were anything to support it.

Funny, that's how I feel about Palpatine coming back to life.

I believe that Peelee is saying that if you had written: That'd be interesting if there were anything to support it.

Then it would match his view on Palpatine's return.

Either you discard the notion of canon (which is entirely valid a position to make, just because the bigwigs of Disney bought Lucasfilm doesn't mean they get to decide which stories you should consider more important) or you accept all of it. "As far as I'm concerned" and "canon" are rather contradictory phrases.

But you are happy enough to pretend the Mortis arc never happened I take it.

Ultimately I think the sequels work much better if you imagine that Palpatine is an all-powerful troll who gets bored on occassion and starts to mess with people - I also think they make more sense that way.

[Peelee]

I believe that Peelee is saying that if you had written: That'd be interesting if there were anything to support it.

Then it would match his view on Palpatine's return.

Aye. Thanks!

[Fyraltari]

But you are happy enough to pretend the Mortis arc never happened I take it.

I'm not pretending it never happened. I'm just hoping it never gets referenced again. Which is easier than doing the same for the ST since the Mortis arc is utterly unconsequential.

Edit: okay, I realize that I literally wrote "as a fandom can we pretend this never happened" so that's a little hypocritical of me.

Also, I've noticed that I've cared less and less about "canon" over the last couple of years* give me a while and I may just reach the point where my position is basically just "**** it".

*At least when it comes to large long runners with various creative teams behind them. I'm still a stickler for finer points of canon for stuff like, say, The Lord of the Rings or A Song of Fire where there is a single creative vision.

[Mechalich]

I'm not pretending it never happened. I'm just hoping it never gets referenced again. Which is easier than doing the same for the ST since the Mortis arc is utterly unconsequential.

Mortis was referenced again, in both versions of canon. In Legends it was decided that the Ones were Celestials and they were tied in to various creations and phenomena scattered about the galaxy. They were referenced, in some detail in the Fate of the Jedi novels and the standalone novel Crucible, in very ham-handed fashion both times. In the Disney canon they were referenced in Rebels, as the 'Mortis Gods' suggesting that they were also placed into the roles of Celestials again.

However, none of the events of the Mortis arc were ever referenced, just the backdrop idea of the Ones as beings capable of manipulating the Force on some kind of higher level than ordinary mortals. Accepting that, there is the implication that there was some kind of linkage between Anakin's status as the Chosen One and the machinations of the Celestials with regard to the galaxy, but the arc is so vague that the link can be basically anything any fan wants it to be.

[Dire_Flumph]

Mortis was referenced again, in both versions of canon. In Legends it was decided that the Ones were Celestials and they were tied in to various creations and phenomena scattered about the galaxy. They were referenced, in some detail in the Fate of the Jedi novels and the standalone novel Crucible, in very ham-handed fashion both times. In the Disney canon they were referenced in Rebels, as the 'Mortis Gods' suggesting that they were also placed into the roles of Celestials again.

However, none of the events of the Mortis arc were ever referenced, just the backdrop idea of the Ones as beings capable of manipulating the Force on some kind of higher level than ordinary mortals. Accepting that, there is the implication that there was some kind of linkage between Anakin's status as the Chosen One and the machinations of the Celestials with regard to the galaxy, but the arc is so vague that the link can be basically anything any fan wants it to be.

Can't speak for fandom, but for myself, I had less of a problem with the continuation in Rebels. There at least they were mythologized and vague. Something some ancient Jedi believed in, with wiggle room for it just being allegory. In Clone Wars they were more literal and it just comes off as silly to have physical Force Gods walking around, especially given the disconnected nature of things from the larger story.

Easiest way for me to bridge it is just to take things how the opening scroll presents them. These are all stories told about a time "Long Ago, In a Galaxy Far Away". One of those future tellers just took the stories of Anakin and Obi-Wan and mashed them up with the even more ancient myths of the Mortis Gods. Head-canon resolved.

[pendell]

As far as im concerned, all the sequel movies are only theoretically canon, so i think it works out.

They're canon for now. Given Hollywood currently reboots all its properties every ten years, it's probably not wise to invest in any story telling canon , good or bad, as if it were a set in stone fact like the laws of of physics. I see they're rebooting BSG, for example.

If in ten years someone wants to write a new set of stories and pretend the existing movies never happened, well, that's been done before.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

They're canon for now. Given Hollywood currently reboots all its properties every ten years, it's probably not wise to invest in any story telling canon , good or bad, as if it were a set in stone fact like the laws of of physics. I see they're rebooting BSG, for example.

If in ten years someone wants to write a new set of stories and pretend the existing movies never happened, well, that's been done before.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ive heard rumors that due to the generally poor reception of the sequels, Disney is seriously looking at de-canonizing them and the attached media and trying again. But i dont think theyve put out any official word on that either way.

[Mechalich]

Can't speak for fandom, but for myself, I had less of a problem with the continuation in Rebels. There at least they were mythologized and vague. Something some ancient Jedi believed in, with wiggle room for it just being allegory. In Clone Wars they were more literal and it just comes off as silly to have physical Force Gods walking around, especially given the disconnected nature of things from the larger story.

I think the allegorical approach works for the Mortis Arc itself too. There's nothing in the episodes that suggests Anakin, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan actually visited a physical place as opposed to some kind of collective dreamscape. Even if the Mortis monolith itself is an actual object created by the Celestials wandering around the galaxy the area within can just be a mindscape the adjusts according to the nature and intent of the visitors.

Spoiler

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Between TCW and Rebels we have three instances of characters going into Force-mediated species where they interact with the creations of phenomenally powerful primordial beings: Mortis, Yoda's encounter with the Force Priestesses, and Ezra's visit to the World Between Worlds. It's entirely possible that all three characters are undergoing the same sort of interaction with higher powers, but that the nature of the visions conforms to their expectations. Intriguingly, in this view the most important revelation of Mortis is that Anakin imagines the nature of the galaxy as a squabbling, dysfunctional family feud, which at least fits his character arc.

[Keltest]

I think the allegorical approach works for the Mortis Arc itself too. There's nothing in the episodes that suggests Anakin, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan actually visited a physical place as opposed to some kind of collective dreamscape. Even if the Mortis monolith itself is an actual object created by the Celestials wandering around the galaxy the area within can just be a mindscape the adjusts according to the nature and intent of the visitors.

Spoiler

Show

Between TCW and Rebels we have three instances of characters going into Force-mediated species where they interact with the creations of phenomenally powerful primordial beings: Mortis, Yoda's encounter with the Force Priestesses, and Ezra's visit to the World Between Worlds. It's entirely possible that all three characters are undergoing the same sort of interaction with higher powers, but that the nature of the visions conforms to their expectations. Intriguingly, in this view the most important revelation of Mortis is that Anakin imagines the nature of the galaxy as a squabbling, dysfunctional family feud, which at least fits his character arc.

Spoiler

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Curiously, it would also seem to indicate that he views the Force as a parental figure that has expectations for him that he has little interest in and no idea how to meet, that he finds the Light Side to be out of touch and aloof even if it is well meaning, and the Dark Side to be the only one interested in breaking a painful status quo even if the end result isnt desirable.

[Peelee]

Ive heard rumors that due to the generally poor reception of the sequels, Disney is seriously looking at de-canonizing them and the attached media and trying again. But i dont think theyve put out any official word on that either way.

Sounds more like baseless wishes. Don't get me wrong I'd love that, but I put zero stock into it.

[pendell]

Sounds more like baseless wishes. Don't get me wrong I'd love that, but I put zero stock into it.

Say rather deliberate rumor-mongering put about by sources inside Disney to keep people talking about Star wars. There are a number of youtube channels which pass on such rumors; I'm of the opinion Disney deliberately stokes them for the purpose of publicity.

Possibly there are people within Disney talking about this or wanting to do it, but I don't think it'll happen under the current leadership; this would require them to admit they were wrong.

But that doesn't mean future movies or videos will not retcon elements of the sequel trilogy if the producers think there's money in doing so. When you think about it, Episode 9 itself retconned Rey's "no one special" identity established in Episode 8.

I guess that's my real problem with modern Hollywood and Disney -- they aren't really concerned with canon continuity or even the story itself as such. It's a marketing vehicle to get butts in seats and dollars in their pockets. If they bring on some director who thinks it would be cool to have an interstellar invasion of purple giraffes who are magically immune to the force, well , they'll film that and put it on screen. Then, after the inevitable flop, the next set of shows will carry on as if the last one never happened.

So I enjoy the bits of star wars story telling that appeal to me, and I've learned not to get worked up about current canon, because current canon is always changing. I have a sourcebook on Coruscant at home dated from about 2005 , which goes into great details about Coruscant undergoing Vongforming under Yuuzhan Vong occupation. I absolutely hated that part of the story , but it was canon -- for awhile. It's not any more, and that particular view of the world is in the dustbin of history where it belongs. It never happened in the new continuity, and that's one part of the old EU I don't miss at all.

Give it a few years, and the bits of Nucanon that don't work will either be retconned out of existence or simply dropped down the memory hole, while the stuff that really works such as the Mandalorian will be built upon and expanded. Or who knows, maybe Disney will sell out to someone else and they will reboot the franchise from ground zero a third time. Anything is possible when there's enough money being waved under studio exec's noses.

Maybe that's why there are such a thing as 'classics'. When we see classic shows, they seem to be better than new ones, but that's only because we've only kept the very best shows and music from earlier time periods. There was just as much dreck produced in the nineteenth century as there was today; the difference is that most of it didn't stand the test of time, and was dropped down the memory hole. Only the very best entertainment survives across decades to be loved by multiple generations.

I'm confident in saying that original Star Wars has already passed that test, given we are on our third generation of SW fans. Even the Prequel trilogy , little as those of us OG fans liked it, seems to have stood the test, witness the many millenials who have fond memories of the PT. Whether the ST will leave a similar mark remains to be seen. If it doesn't, it will go, and no one will miss it. But until then, I refuse to get overly upset about the 'canonical Star Wars' story of the moment, just because it's not the story I would tell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.