Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Mechalich]

I guess that's my real problem with modern Hollywood and Disney -- they aren't really concerned with canon continuity or even the story itself as such.

Generally, strict canon continuity has artistic value to a franchise only until it's broken the first time. Once you allow that you're in a multiverse, there's no takebacks.

Legends Star Wars managed to just barely remain under one continuity (it got really stretchy at points, there was some time travel even) only because a single person - George Lucas - owned the whole thing. It was, among modern major franchises, unique in that way. Disney committed an act of artistic vandalism when they killed that status, even if it was, economically the 'correct' move.

Going from one timeline to two is the big step. Going from two to three or four or five is nothing by comparison (DC and Marvel are all over the place and loving it). A this point I suspect a new universe in which the ST never happens is more likely than not, but that doesn't mean they'll be officially de-canonized or anything, they'll just be two different things occupying the ~30 ABY space. Also, they'll probably only be one set of live action films in that timeframe, but an alternate universe via animation or comics could easily happen.

However, it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. The ST, for all its difficulties in secondary markets, still has long tail money to play out (especially Galaxy's Edge, which is a physical construct and therefore a very large sunk cost). The Mandalorian's currently at ~10 ABY, meaning they've got ten to fifteen years of timeline before anyone really has to even think about leading into the ST or not. Disney can push any sort of decision way out into the 2030s.

It also matters what other portions of the franchise acquire strength in the interim. This is a Clone Wars thread, and Clone Wars is a steady pillar of Star Wars at this point, one strong enough to both get brought back from the dead (for season 7) and to spin off another animated show. The ST, by contrast, is a weak spot in the franchise, and it has been hard to attach other products to it (Resistance canceled, relatively few novels/comics in the zone, etc.). The current effort is to try to make a new High Republic space for the franchise, but early returns have been rather dubious.

[pendell]

Good point on the theme park; that sunken cost means they can't walk it back completely, as you say.

Even so, "multiple timelines" sounds like a nifty dodge which actually means "we can pretend that embarrassing movie never happened . We never have to refer to it again and we don't need to explain why beyond saying 'timey-wimey'.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

Even so, "multiple timelines" sounds like a nifty dodge which actually means "we can pretend that embarrassing movie never happened . We never have to refer to it again and we don't need to explain why beyond saying 'timey-wimey'.

Rebels introduced an in-universe method to spawn as many timelines as necessary:

Spoiler

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When Ezra goes into the World Between Worlds he pulls Ahsoka out of time, preventing Vader from killing her on Malachor and allowing her to emerge, quite alive, several years later. This can be interpreted as an alternate timeline, the Disney-Canon Ahsoka-Yes universe compared to the Dinsey-Canon Ahsoka-No universe in which Ezra doesn't do that. Going with that, any time anyone else goes into the World Between Worlds (not exactly a commonplace event but there's nothing to say it can't happen repeatedly, especially since Ahsoka's magical owl Morai is somehow linked to the Daughter and can presumably guide others on the correct path) they could create a new timeline by altering fate in a similar way.

[Peelee]

Legends Star Wars managed to just barely remain under one continuity (it got really stretchy at points, there was some time travel even) only because a single person - George Lucas - owned the whole thing. It was, among modern major franchises, unique in that way.

Except it didn't, and it wasn't. Lucas approved storyline for books, then retconned those storylines in his movies. Hell, he even retconned the first movie with the second movie!

[Keltest]

Except it didn't, and it wasn't. Lucas approved storyline for books, then retconned those storylines in his movies. Hell, he even retconned the first movie with the second movie!

Could you elaborate on that? Its not immediately apparent to me what youre referring to.

[Peelee]

Could you elaborate on that? Its not immediately apparent to me what youre referring to.

The one that's always easy pickings - Boba Fett is the pseudonym of a man named Jaster Mereel who left his life as basically-a-cop to become a bounty hunter. Until Episode II comes out and Boba Fett is a clone of a Mandalorian named Jango Fett and who is this Jaster Mereel fellow, never heard of him. Until more works come out where Jaster Mereel was Jango Fett's father, no his mentor, no Mandalore, no Jango isn't a Mandalorian anymore, and so on and so on.

This is a franchise that had at least five levels of canon, despite being run by a single man. That is definitely unique among franchises, but in the opposite direction. It was a ridiculous mess.

ETA: The author of that story has a fantastic take on it all:

I prefer mine, of course. But it didn't particularly annoy me. I don't care much about canon, and my stories are still out there for anyone who wants to read them. And frankly, even within the universe of commercial fiction, [George] Lucas was utterly contemptuous of his own early writing, when it came time to make the prequels. The idea that I should get annoyed about him ignoring mine? No.

[Keltest]

The one that's always easy pickings - Boba Fett is the pseudonym of a man named Jaster Mereel who left his life as basically-a-cop to become a bounty hunter. Until Episode II comes out and Boba Fett is a clone of a Mandalorian named Jango Fett and who is this Jaster Mereel fellow, never heard of him. Until more works come out where Jaster Mereel was Jango Fett's father, no his mentor, no Mandalore, no Jango isn't a Mandalorian anymore, and so on and so on.

This is a franchise that had at least five levels of canon, despite being run by a single man. That is definitely unique among franchises, but in the opposite direction. It was a ridiculous mess.

ETA: The author of that story has a fantastic take on it all:

I meant specifically retconning TPM with AotC

[pendell]

The one that's always easy pickings - Boba Fett is the pseudonym of a man named Jaster Mereel who left his life as basically-a-cop to become a bounty hunter. Until Episode II comes out and Boba Fett is a clone of a Mandalorian named Jango Fett and who is this Jaster Mereel fellow, never heard of him. Until more works come out where Jaster Mereel was Jango Fett's father, no his mentor, no Mandalore, no Jango isn't a Mandalorian anymore, and so on and so on.

This is a franchise that had at least five levels of canon, despite being run by a single man. That is definitely unique among franchises, but in the opposite direction. It was a ridiculous mess.

Or Vader becoming Luke's father and Leia his sister. I suppose it might not be a retcon but if so it was the least well foreshadowed reveal in the history of moviemaking.

Not to mention changes between revisions, such as replacing the original actor playing Anakin in the Force Ghost seen at the end of ROTJ with Hayden Christensen.

Or editing the New Hope scene so that Greedo shot first. Did he ever edit it back?

He was constantly changing the story in large ways and small, all the while claiming he had always intended it to be that way. I guess he's a perfectionist who's never really satisfied with his work, always wanting to make it better.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

I meant specifically retconning TPM with AotC

Whenever I talk about a Star Wars movie with words like "first", I'm speaking chronologically. The first Star Wars movie was Star Wars. The second Star Wars movie was The Empire Strikes Back.

[Dire_Flumph]

Or Vader becoming Luke's father and Leia his sister. I suppose it might not be a retcon but if so it was the least well foreshadowed reveal in the history of moviemaking.

No, you're right. It's pretty well documented that Vader was not Anakin when the original Star Wars was filming and was only added a few drafts into the script for Empire. The "a certain point of view" thing had to be inserted to try to justify the retcon to the backstory Obi-Wan gave.

And the "There is another" line was inserted as a back-door to either replace Luke if Hamill didn't continue in the series, or set up a 2nd protagonist in what was planned to be a much longer string of movies at the time. When it came down to Jedi having to wrap things up they suddenly had to make an existing character fit that line and that became Leia.

Not to mention all the other things Lucas flip-flopped on with the setting like if anyone could train to be a Jedi or only certain people. I don't hold it against him, worldbuilding is a process with a lot of evolution, but it's kind of a miracle everything holds together as much as it does.

[pendell]

I meant specifically retconning TPM with AotC

Oooh ! ooh! I know! :jumps up and down waving his arm like Hermione Granger:

One word.

Midichlorians.

Maybe not exactly retconned out of existence, but they were definitely never ever mentioned again. I think Lucas saw it was a mis-step to de-mystify the Force and so concentrated more on those aspects. It's not so much that they were declared not-canon as they were dropped in the memory hole, and then they built a great big temple around the memory hole with traps and guards to keep the curious away, then fired the whole shebang, hole and all, into the sun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dire_Flumph]

Oooh ! ooh! I know! :jumps up and down waving his arm like Hermione Granger:

One word.

Midichlorians.

Maybe not exactly retconned out of existence, but they were definitely never ever mentioned again.

Sure.

Except Revenge of the Sith

and Clone Wars

oh, and the Mandalorian

[Mechalich]

Midi-chlorians were referenced in over forty Legends works, which is quite a few considering, especially considering they didn't exist for a considerable portion of Legends publication and that stories not involving Force users (more works than you'd think) had little reason to talk about them. Disney canon references are more limited, but they do exist and will probably grow in number over time.

[Fyraltari]

Hell, he even retconned the first movie with the second movie!

I wouldn't say that. The second and third movies retconned the first one's backstory not the events of the movie itself. The meaning behind some statements and actions were changed (see the whole "Han **** first debacle") but those statements and actions were acknowledged as having happened. Which isn't quite what people mean when they talk about retconning the ST. While, as a franchise, Star Wars, has always been happy to retcon books, comics, video games, cartoons and McDonald's toys, the movies enjoy a rather superior status*, probably due to being both the first and most visible medium used by the franchise**. They're the one thing you can be 99% certain anyone consuming any other given piece of SW media has as a frame of reference. If Disney were to publidh stuff that contradicts the events of the ST, that'd basically be the end of any attempt at cross-media continuity. And I don't think they're willing to do that just yet.

*Those released in theater, I mean, the Holiday Special and the Ewok movies wish they had that visibility.
**Though the fact that The Clone Wars survived the transition to Disney Canon may mean that it gets to share some of that prestige.

[Peelee]

(see the whole "Han **** first debacle")

I'd rather not.

[Sapphire Guard]

In terms of canonicity, I think Lucas is pragmatic. You can't easily make a movie chained to decades of tangled continuity, which is why the sequels had to drop the EU as well.

He kept things he liked (the name Coruscant, the name Palpatine) but disregarded things that didn't fit his vision, which was the correct move.)

I can't think of an actual contradiction between the OT and PT that can't be explained by 'X character was wrong/lying/speaking figuratively' like Obi's classic 'certain point of view' trick. The only real one is Leia's garbled memories of her mother, which can be explained by being garbled memories of her mother, or even a force vision.

Han shot first is not a retcon, it doesn't affect anything storywise.

Things always get revised in the writing process, it's not a retcon unless there's an actual contradiction.

[Fyraltari]

I'd rather not.

Okay, I don't understand how that happened but dince that's easily the best part of my post, I'm keeping it.

[dancrilis]

Okay, I don't understand how that happened but dince that's easily the best part of my post, I'm keeping it.

If I had to guess I would say you hit 'a' rather then 'o' when spelling 'shot' - easy enough to happen when typing quickly on some keyboard layouts (or if muscle memory kicks in and you use words starting with 'sha' a lot).

Edit: hitting a 'i' might have been even easier on a more standard keyboard.

[Fyraltari]

If I had to guess I would say you hit 'a' rather then 'o' when spelling 'shot' - easy enough to happen when typing quickly on some keyboard layouts (or if muscle memory kicks in and you use words starting with 'sha' a lot).

Edit: hitting a 'i' might have been even easier on a more standard keyboard.

Yes, that's probably it, "i" and "o" are next to each other.

Still funny, though.

[Fyraltari]

Season 3, Episode 18: The Citadel

Spoiler: Recap

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A Jedi Master named Even Piell has been captured in battle and taken to a Separatist prison called the Citadel (shutupnamesarehard) where he is to be interrogated since he has informations regarding "the Nexus routes", secret Hyperspace lanes. Not sure how hyperspace lanes can be secret, but okay. Plo Koon is debriefing Kenobi, Skywalker, Cody, Rex, Five and Echo, explaining to them that no-one ever escaped the Citadel. Apparently that prison predates the war so they have old maps but because of the separatist defenses they couldn't acquire any recent ones. This mission is very important since the routes lead directly from the heart of Separatist space to Coruscant (is that how Grievous will eventually lead an assault on the capital planet, I wonder?). Obi-wan is worried the Citadel's scanner will detect any approaching lifeform but Ani has a plan. He's interrupted by Ahsoka showing up late. Anakin takes her aside and tells her she won't be coming. The Citadel isn't any old prison: it was created specifically to hold Jedi, should they turn to the Dark Side (interesting...) and it's too dangerous for Padawans. Ahsoka thinks he's being overprotective and she can't learn if she isn't in danger but Skywalker says that this isn't a learning mission and this isn't a debate.

in the Temple hangar R2 shows 3PO his new underlings: a handful of reprogrammed B1s. Thankfully this is the only 3Po "comedy" we get this episode. Fives isn't a fan of the idea of reliying on battle droids, but he doesn't get a vote. Meanwhile Ahsoka goes to see Plo Koon (who's repairing his fighter, I think?) and tell him about her discussion with Anakin. He says that Anakin is doing his duty as her master but she retorts that it should be her choice whether to put her life in danger.

Anakin's plan to shiled them from the lifescans? Carbon freeze the entire team (which includes some more clones). They even got some Ugnaughts set up a unit inside the Temple hangar. Fives is worried he'll turn into a "wallside decoration", ah cute. Unlike Han, though, their hands are in the same place coming in and out of the freezing process. They live and arrive at a planet and WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED HERE!? a good third of the planet is missing and the inside is apparently filled with some glowing fluid (is that supposed to be a very big core?) How is that place not collapsing on itself? The warden (some kind of lizard-like alien) is being extra cautious because of course the JEdi are coming for their imprisoned brother. R2 has the droids pretend they bring in supplies (including frozen rations) and they are let through. The warden monologues on how the Citadel exists to break the JEdi training to resist fear, ffor no reason I can think of.

The shuttle lands in a canyo by a river of yellow lava and the Republicans are unfrozen. "Hey, Snips. -Hey, Master. -Waaaaaaaaait a minute." Obi-Wan jokes about having carbon sickness and hallucinating Ahsoka while Anakin replies it's Ahsoka's hearing that needs fixing. Ahsoka claims that Plo ordered her to come along after their discussion and that Skywalker was already frozen which is why he wasn't told. Way to undermine Anakin's authority, and endanger the whole mission by adding a surprise member of the team to cater to a teenager's whim, Plo. Kenobi can't resist butting in to go all "see what you put me through?" on Anakin. To parpahras another show:
Obi-wan: Thank you Ahsoka for teaching kids everywher a valuable lesson: if things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true.
Anakin: That's a pretty lousy lesson.
Obi-wan: Hey, I'm a pretty lousy Master.

They reach the Citadel by foot but the door is high up. It's too windy for jetpack, and there are electric mines on the wall that stops them from using their ascenscion cables, so they'll have to fee climb the rocky facade. Oh no, if only there were someone her that could lift people in the air with the power of their mind! As they reach the platform some droids come out, have a look and leave, locking the door. Apparently a closed door (ray-shielding specifically) is enough to throw their whole plan out. Huh, why didn't you just land in the Citadel hangar? A missing shuttle is bound to attract attention anyway and you probably could have taken out anything present in there. Ahsoka spots a ventilation duct. The others disregarded it sice it's too small to squeeze through. Not for Ahsoka thoug, see aren't you glad she disobeyed direct orders to come here? They get in as the warden is notified that a shuttle is missing. At the same time a clones slips and falls on one of the mines, dying and triggering a Citadel-wide alarm.

The warden has everything locked down and summons his special unit: commando droids! Am I supposed to be impressed? Also, I think that's the same alarm from A New Hope, nice. They take out some Death Star-like automated defense and anrrowly avoid some sort of ligthing attack (it still kills a clone, though). They find Piel's cell and take out the droids torturing him (did no-one warn them of what was happening), including one of the same model as the overseer of Jabba's droids. Piel's in good shape. he explains that he destroyed the records of the Nexus Routes and memorized half of them, while his captain memorized the other half, so the separatists couldn't get their hands on them. The Jedi hadn't planned on rescuing anybody else, because just like in Season One they really don't care about the non-Jedi that accompany their colleagues.

On their way to the captain's cell they are spotted by the warden and ambushed by his special team. He's awfully confident that they can take on four armed Jedi (they apparently brought Piel a spare lightsaber), and truth be told they do a surprisingly good job. And by that I mean one of them managed to tackle Tano before being cut in half. The warden uses a ringing noise to inconvienience them and a magnetized ceiling to take their weapons away (sounds like that should have happened alongside the ambush). Of course Skywalker's arm is made of metal so he's lifted too and gets electrified while they're at it. Some more droids show up. Piel and Kenobi Force-push them but their feets are magnetized to prevent that. Still it's hard to fight bent backward. Anakin powers through the pain and grabs his lightsaber (that still works?) and uses it to cut the power falling to the ground with everybody's weapons. They make short work of the droids.

They free the Republican prisoners and we meet even Piel's captain: Cpt Tarkin! Dun, dun, dun! He wonders how they are going to escape when reinforcements are surely coming. OBi-Wan wants to make two teams to ensure the separatists only get at mot half the intelligence, his will create a diversion while the other escapes. Tarkin would rather they concentrate firepower, but general outranks captain so they don't do that. Piel goes with Kenobi and Cody while Tarkin goes with Ahsoka, Rex and Anakin. Obi-Wan's teams puts explosives behind them. Meanwhile a droid reports that tarkin and Co escaped so the warden has him shot for using a bad word. In case you didn't know he was the villain, I guess. Since Obi-Wan's team has been spotted in the upper levels he concludes they want to steal a transport so he has the landing platform sealed (aren't you already under lockdown?) and sends everything he has their way. Kenobi's team create a pretty big explosion while Anakin cuts a hole in the wall leading to a tunnel leading outside. Guess the old maps have a use. Tarkin is being skeptical of Obi-Wan's plan, because he's a prick. Anakin asks him to trust him, Tarkin says he reserves his trust to those who take action. Skywalker reminds him that they got him out of his cell and he reserves his trust to those who understands gratitude. Tarkin flashes a sinister smile to the camera and the episode ends.

Spoiler: My thoughts

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Good to have some quality back. This is a pretty fun adventure story. The villain is a bit one-note (no one escapes!) but otherwise very serviceable. It's interesting that this facility was originally buit by the Order to house Fallen Jedi. I hope they build on this. Intoducing Tarkin is something that feels obvious in retrospect but must have been somewhat shocking at the time. He and Anakin are off to a rough start, but the logical way now is for them to end up agreeing and have Anakin be tempted by Tarkin's fascistic outlook. I hope he shows up more so they can use him to show the republic do some evil stuff like bombing civilians and whatnot. Not a fan of Anakin being portrayed in the wrong the one time he takes his repsonsabilities seriously and makes the correct choice of not bringing the teenager to the most dangerous mission evah. And sorry Ahsoka, but as the closest thing you have to a legal guardian it 100% is his choice to make how much danger you should be exposed to. That said, between the 14-year old queens and the padawans going into battle, does nayone know what the age of majority is in the Republic?

You know, after the whole "this weapon is your life" talk I wonder what is going to happen to Piel's lightsaber. Is he going to let it behind (most likely) and if so, will he have to go through whatever process is required to get a new one.

[pendell]

Not sure how hyperspace lanes can be secret, but okay.

Reading through Starships of the Galaxy, hyperspace routes are a precise set of course computations which allow ships to travel from one star system to another. If a route hasn't been mapped or charted, travel between star systems is impossible. That's why the "Galactic Empire" doesn't comprise literally every star system in the galaxy. You could have a hyperspace route from Coruscant to Tatooine, clear in the outer rim, and travel to the planet might take days or weeks. But you could have another star 5 light years from Tatooine for which no route is charted; so despite being a stellar neighbor, you can't reach it in a human life time at sublight speeds. So the "Galactic Empire" is really a collection of little bubbles connected by trade routes surrounded by vast depths which are unexplored.

Despite the fact that you can see all the stars in the galaxy from an observatory on Coruscant, this doesn't mean you can create hyperspace routes merely from those observations. That's because the observations you are making are literally millions of years old. If you tried to pilot a starship based solely on those observations, you might find an unpleasant surprise when you discover that a gas giant or even a star isn't in the same place as it was hundreds of millions of years ago.

Thus, the hyperspace routes require constant updating, both by those ships who travel the route and by the Hyperspace Navigator's Guild, whose job it is both to update the existing lanes and to chart new ones. You can purchase trade route data from the space ministry for 150 credits; data is 1 day old for the major trade routes (Corellian Run, Corellian Trade Spine, Hydian Way, Perlemian Trade Route, Rimma Trade Route) , 1 week old for other regions in the core off the main routes, 1 month old for the outer rim. And Good Luck for wildspace or the Unknown regions; when available it will be at LEAST a year old, and you probably will have to buy it from some shifty-looking alien in a bar rather than at the spaceport. Why, hello, pretty adventure hook!

That's how hyperspace routes can be secret; although you can see all the stars from any point in the galaxy by simply looking up, actually having a hyperspace route requires up-to-date scouting and pathfinding by hyperdrive ships. There's no reason you have to broadcast your findings on the Holonet to the entire galaxy. So if you kept some of those routes secret you might, say, have a "back door" to the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy , taking the defenders completely by surprise. Or you might have a route to some star system no one else had access to, where you could stash supplies or even an entire fleet, if you so chose.

That's all in the old Legends continuity, of course, but I don't see why it would change in nucanon. But 'secret hyperspace routes' are entirely plausible; certainly more so than laser swords and mystic monks.

This is also, incidentally, a reason for the different travel times, in the source books, hyperdrives are rated anywhere from .5 (go anywhere in the galaxy on a charted route in hardly any time at all) to class 15 (better have coldsleep facilities on the ship ; it will be months or even years).

Everything above class 1 is experimental , used in military ships or pirates. Very, very fast but also very, very finicky and temperamental. Easy to break, requiring constant maintenance. That's the cost of bleeding edge technology, but absolutely necessary for a smuggler or anyone else who wants to live outside the law by being faster than the authorities.

class 1 is the best hyperdrive you can get that is stable, but very expensive, which is why class 2 or 3 are more common. Class 4-6 are older tech. Class 8-15 are backup hyperdrives , which take forever but it's still better than being stranded in the middle of space light years from anywhere.

All quite well-thought out and reasonable, I think.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

That said, between the 14-year old queens and the padawans going into battle, does nayone know what the age of majority is in the Republic?

It varies seemingly.

Is he going to let it behind (most likely) and if so, will he have to go through whatever process is required to get a new one.

I'm not saying that there is an entire episode dedicated to understanding whether he should fill out Jedi Requisition Form 17zi (loss of lightsaber) or Jedi Requisition Form 17zj (stolen lightsaber) which goes into the dark an murky depths of understanding if capture leading to loss of equipment counts as that equipment being stolen by the capturing forces - but I am not saying that there isn't such an episode either.

[Sapphire Guard]

I mean, Anakin and Obi Wan were just given spares in Geonosis, it's probably fine.

I doubt there's an age of majority, it would vary too much species to species.

[Fyraltari]

You could have a hyperspace route from Coruscant to Tatooine, clear in the outer rim, and travel to the planet might take days or weeks. But you could have another star 5 light years from Tatooine for which no route is charted; so despite being a stellar neighbor, you can't reach it in a human life time at sublight speeds.

Which is why Han, Chewbacca and Leia all died of thirst aboard the Falcon who only reached Bespin a few thousand years after leaving Hoth and nobody could understand what "Empire" these two insane, antediluvian droids were babbling about.

So the "Galactic Empire" is really a collection of little bubbles connected by trade routes surrounded by vast depths which are unexplored.

I mean that'd be true even if every inhabitable planet in the galaxy were settled and there wer instantaneaous travel from anywhere to anywhere. Space be big.

Despite the fact that you can see all the stars in the galaxy from an observatory on Coruscant, this doesn't mean you can create hyperspace routes merely from those observations. That's because the observations you are making are literally millions of years old. If you tried to pilot a starship based solely on those observations, you might find an unpleasant surprise when you discover that a gas giant or even a star isn't in the same place as it was hundreds of millions of years ago.

It really isn't hard to compute where those stars currently are though. It's not like theor motion is particularly complex.

Thus, the hyperspace routes require constant updating, both by those ships who travel the route and by the Hyperspace Navigator's Guild, whose job it is both to update the existing lanes and to chart new ones. You can purchase trade route data from the space ministry for 150 credits; data is 1 day old for the major trade routes (Corellian Run, Corellian Trade Spine, Hydian Way, Perlemian Trade Route, Rimma Trade Route) , 1 week old for other regions in the core off the main routes, 1 month old for the outer rim. And Good Luck for wildspace or the Unknown regions; when available it will be at LEAST a year old, and you probably will have to buy it from some shifty-looking alien in a bar rather than at the spaceport. Why, hello, pretty adventure hook!

But how was that information collected in the first place ? If you need to go there to get it and you need it to get there? Was the Galaxy Far Far Away visited by [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(comics)Wake[/url]?I can't tell if that would explain the wide spread of humans or just raise more questions.

That's how hyperspace routes can be secret; although you can see all the stars from any point in the galaxy by simply looking up, actually having a hyperspace route requires up-to-date scouting and pathfinding by hyperdrive ships. There's no reason you have to broadcast your findings on the Holonet to the entire galaxy. So if you kept some of those routes secret you might, say, have a "back door" to the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy , taking the defenders completely by surprise. Or you might have a route to some star system no one else had access to, where you could stash supplies or even an entire fleet, if you so chose.

I mean, a fast path from Coruscant to the Outer Rim sounds like it would do wonders for trade and colonization so it'd be an itter waste to keep a thing like that but, then again it's true that the Galactix Civilization is just kind of terrible when it comes to sensible ise of resources and technology.

That's all in the old Legends continuity, of course, but I don't see why it would change in nucanon. But 'secret hyperspace routes' are entirely plausible; certainly more so than laser swords and mystic monks.

Touché ; )

It varies seemingly.

I don't know what's weirder, that there's a wiki page for this or that I am surprised that there's a wiki page for this.

I mean, Anakin and Obi Wan were just given spares in Geonosis, it's probably fine.

Obviously a life-or-death situation is not time to be picky but givenhow personal and symbolically important to the Order the weapon is, there's at least gotta be some special ceremony for getting one.

[Mechalich]

It really isn't hard to compute where those stars currently are though. It's not like theor motion is particularly complex.

Their motion is actually quite complex, since the motion of stars throughout the galaxy is an n-body gravitational problem where n = 100,000,000,000 just in stars (not counting brown dwarfs, black holes, rogue planets, neutron stars, large gas clouds, and other weird stuff). Now, in realspace you don't really need a whole lot of precision because space is mostly empty, but hyperspace is different and presumably much more compact (which is why you can get from point a to point b much faster), so pinpoint accuracy matters.

But how was that information collected in the first place ? If you need to go there to get it and you need it to get there? Was the Galaxy Far Far Away visited by [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(comics)Wake[/url]?I can't tell if that would explain the wide spread of humans or just raise more questions.

The earliest routes through hyperspace were charted by the Rakata, using the Force, and also by the Gree, using spatial manipulating technologies that no one else has, and others. The galactic civilization in Star Wars, at least in Legends, is very much a successor state to an earlier set of civs that were much more Force dependent than the current one.

The wide spread of humans is explained by their status as the principle Rakata slave species, which gave them a step up on other species following the downfall of the Rakata Infinite Empire.

Note that the major hyperspace routes are sustained and stabilized through constant holonet updates. The HoloNet is the largest civic work in the galaxy and while it allows interstellar real time communication its primary purpose is to allow interstellar real time navigational updates to every ship in the galaxy. The HoloNet relies on millions of transceivers suspended in hyperspace. Maintaining it was incredible expensive and, prior to the creation of a military, might have been the #1 line item in the Republic's budget.

I mean, a fast path from Coruscant to the Outer Rim sounds like it would do wonders for trade and colonization so it'd be an itter waste to keep a thing like that but, then again it's true that the Galactix Civilization is just kind of terrible when it comes to sensible ise of resources and technology.

The functional comparison here is to the age of sail. A hyperspace 'route' isn't like a highway, its more like a set of instructions in the fashion of a navigational rutter (just one comprised of exceedingly complex calculations). Various nations and trading companies hoarded this knowledge because it represented was an economic and strategic asset of incredible importance.

And yeah, galactic civilization is kind of terrible, but it's important to recall that it's not modeled on 21st century of even 20th century standards, but more like late 19th century. It's pretty middle of the road in that comparative zone.

[pendell]

Which is why Han, Chewbacca and Leia all died of thirst aboard the Falcon who only reached Bespin a few thousand years after leaving Hoth and nobody could understand what "Empire" these two insane, antediluvian droids were babbling about.

By Oldcanon, the ship had a backup hyperdrive . The trip was NOT made at sublight speed. I mentioned these in my previous post.

EDIT: Okay, I should acknowledge that this is Legends lampshading the events of ESB; George Lucas himself never bothered to explain why Han and Leia were able to travel from Hoth to Bespin without a functioning hyperdrive. He was making a myth, not science fiction. Still, so far as I'm concerned the oldcanon explanation will do until something better comes along.

It really isn't hard to compute where those stars currently are though. It's not like theor motion is particularly complex.

Stars aren't the only thing you have to worry about though. Even in A New Hope Han Solo mentioned meteor showers. Even in our galaxy, Dark Matter comprises 85% of the total matter in it.

As I said, stellar observation isn't enough to account for all the various stellar bodies and their gravitational influences, including those that don't just show up on a telescope.

But how was that information collected in the first place ? If you need to go there to get it and you need it to get there? Was the Galaxy Far Far Away visited by [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(comics)Wake[/url]?I can't tell if that would explain the wide spread of humans or just raise more questions.

By old canon, navigators went out on computed courses and some of them came back. That's what the Navigators Guild is for. Bit by bit and little by little, they found out what worked and what didn't, resulting in the major trade lanes that characterize the GFFA by the time of the movies.

If "travelling hyperspace ain't like dusting crops", then travelling a completely uncharted route as a trailblazer is to Han's jump in ANH what piloting a space shuttle is to riding a skateboard.

If it were me, I'd use the very same probe droids shown at the start of ESB; fire a bunch of them off on candidate routes, make note of which ones come back. Read their data. Proceed to the end of each successful point, fire off a new round of probes, see which ones come back, collect more data, rinse and repeat. It'd be very expensive in terms of probes, but cheaper than sending out pilots of the skill and caliber needed for this kind of work.

Actually, that might make a good story in either canon; have a criminal or smuggler convicted of some idiotic crime but nonetheless one of the best navigators in the galaxy. So instead of putting them to work in the Kessel mines or flushing them out the airlock, they're put in charge of one of these scout craft, with the promise of a full pardon if they come back alive. That'd do to start the story. What they found on the other end of the candidate route .. and whether they would ever return to the Republic/Empire ... would be the subject of the rest of the story.

EDIT: I see Mechalich's post. This is part of moving canon; the story of the Guild predates the writing of the Rakata into it. Nonetheless, the basic points and premise of the story stand; just because the earliest routes were charted by the Rakata doesn't mean there wasn't work for the Navigator's Guild to improve and expand on, no more than the maps made by Phoenician sailors of the Mediterranean would be sufficient for Henry the Navigator's explorers.

The Infinite Empire and the Galactic Republic occupy overlapping but not identical space, and as said just because the space is colored on the map doesn't mean every millmeter of it is occupied. Again, the actual occupied space are tiny bubbles in a vast void. Even those maps that were well-charted major trade routes would still require updating over the tens of thousands of years between the Infinite Empire and 0BY.

Hyperspace routes come into play frequently in the SW universe. For instance, the plot of KOTOR is to find the various maps which will lead the player to the Lehon System , a planet unreachable and hidden until someone collects all the various maps together and compiles them to find a route to the planet and the Definitely Final Dungeon there.

During Ep. III, the assault on Coruscant was possible because Sidious leaked the details of a secret hyperspace route to the Seperatists, allowing them to bypass the major defense fleets on the known routes from Separatist space and take the Home Defense fleet by complete surprise . He also ordered a number of mapping expeditions into the deep core which allowed him to construct hidden bases which would prove critical to the events both of the Legends Dark Empire and the Sequel Trilogy.

It seems that the Sith kept their own list of hyperspace routes which they didn't see fit to share with the rest of the galaxy, and they only added to that knowledge when they were running the galaxy. As I thought, they used probe droids , probably not only because of the risks but because droids can be mem-wiped afterwards and re-used, with no fear that they would divulge secrets when captured. We know from ESB that probe droids were programmed to self-destruct if crippled in any event.

It implies that if someone could capture a Sith infiltrator intact, the contents of the navicomputer would be worth more than the entire value of the rest of the ship, even if the cargo hold was packed solid with spice.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

EDIT: I see Mechalich's post. This is part of moving canon; the story of the Guild predates the writing of the Rakata into it. Nonetheless, the basic points and premise of the story stand; just because the earliest routes were charted by the Rakata doesn't mean there wasn't work for the Navigator's Guild to improve and expand on, no more than the maps made by Mediterranean sailors would be sufficient for Henry the Navigator's sailors.

Wasn't trying to override the point. The Rakata explanation addresses the chicken-and-egg problem. The answer to the question of 'how did the Republic figure out hyperspace navigation in the first place?' is that they didn't they copied off of someone else who used a non-technological method. But yes, once started they had to chart out the hyperlanes one star at a time.

The Essential Atlas actually goes into charting new routes in some detail. It's actually a very boring and repetitive process. Basically you park a ship somewhere, string out your sensors and take in a lot of data for a whole day or more, then you calculate out a short jump of 1 light year or less through empty space. This process repeats until you have a string of jumps from one system to the next. This can then be braided together into a continuous route of several light years. Then you go back and run that route until you've stabilized it into a single dataset. They you can start tying multiple star systems together.

So most hyperlanes are actually joined assemblies of large numbers of other, smaller hyperlanes. The Atlas diagrams the Hydian Way (which like other major hyperlanes got imported into the Disney canon), in this fashion.

It seems that the Sith kept their own list of hyperspace routes which they didn't see fit to share with the rest of the galaxy, and they only added to that knowledge when they were running the galaxy. As I thought, they used probe droids , probably not only because of the risks but because droids can be mem-wiped afterwards and re-used, with no fear that they would divulge secrets when captured. We know from ESB that probe droids were programmed to self-destruct if crippled in any event.

Lots of groups kept secret routes. The critical reason the Republic and Separatists both want to ally with the Hutts so badly in the initial TCW film isn't because they expect the Hutts to actually doing any fighting on their behalf, but because the Hutts have a secret hyperlane network they've used for smuggling and piracy for centuries which will allow fleets to move past the bottlenecks along the major hyperlanes.

[Fyraltari]

Season 3, Episode 19: Counter-attack

Spoiler: Recap

Show

Anakin contacts R2 and tells him to pick up Kenobi and then meet up with them at the pipeline exit and then leave. Kenobi and his group are climbing ventilation shafts? I think? to get to the landing pad. He gives R2 the exact same order and both wonder if the other will be on-time. Obi-Wan's party end up meeting a probe droid. these are Separatists, now? The Separatists also use mouse droids apparently. Thought these were more Republic/Imperial things, but alright. Piel destroys the droid but it somehow managed to trigger security doors which isolate the party into little sub-groups. And bisect a redshirt. The Jedi can cut trhough, of course, but it's gonna slow them down.

Meanwhile the warden is told that Count Dooku wants to talk to him. "Let's not keep him waiting. -He's already waiting, sir. -*Horrified look*" I mean, that's how phones work. Dooku's hologram turns to face the warden, who is called Commander Sobek* and paces around in the room. I really wonder what that looks like at Dooku's end. Apparently somebody told Dooku there was a problem. (Damn those robot snitches!) Sobek says the situation is under control. because of the importance of those data, Dooku wonders if he should get involved personnally, but ultimately lets Sobek handle it. the warden then throttles his tactical droid and tell him to warn him in advance next time Dooku calls them by surprise... Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you, Sobek?

While Anakin ganks another probe, Tarkin professes admiration for the Citadel and its effectiveness. Anakin thinks Tarkin has a point while Ahsoka is shocked. Anakin orders her to lead while he stays behind to protect their flank (wouldn't that be their rear?) since Obi-Wan isn't there. I don't remember Obi-wan doing that particularly, but okay. We cut to Windu and Plo Koon who have received a coded transmission explaining the split-up and there plan. They say that if that doesn't work, they'll have to send an entire fleet to get them out. Okay, this is dumb. Why would Kenobi or skywalker feel the need to tell the Council all that? They can't help! And sending a transmission like that would risk giving their position away to the ennemy! I get that this scene is here to give us some exposition with a handy hologram, but I feel like they could have done that earlier when they told R2 about it. Meanwhile Tarkin tells a nonplussed Rex that he doesn't trust ina child's ability to lead. And they find a dead end.

R2 and his droids land and are greeted by Sobek's droid. That droid computes a 75% chance R2 is working for the Republic and has him arrested. By the droids who came out of the shuttle with him. You know, I'm really starting to think somebody is stealing from the CIS's R&D budget. One of the reprogrammed B1s even take advantage of the situation to hit R2 a couple times. While they get away, Sobek lays his trap around the shuttle. Back with Anakin's crew, they are attacked by B2 plus some commando droids using anti-blaster shields they can poke their own blasters through. Neat design. Anakin berates Ahsoka for not blowing up the wall, stating that Master Plo would have briefed her on that if he had truly assigned her on the mission. Okay, but you knew that was bull, so maybe you should have told her yourself, rather than wait for a battle to break out? Ahsoka blows up the wall and spares two bombs to take out the droids.

Kenobi and crew arrive at the shuttle but the lack of touchy astromechs make them suspect a trap. they still fall for it. Meanwhile, Skywalker and his team get inside a pipeline (and so must be careful not to start a fire because it's funnelling fuel, I guess?, from somewhere?) a vertical pipeline they have to climb through. Sobek has Obi-Wan and crew brought to him. Kenobi disses him on his voice. Sobek demands Piel gives him his half of the intel (how does he know about that?). When Piel refuses, Sobek shoots a redshirt. However he loses interest once he's told the other group has been found too. So he has them taken to interrogation. Pretty sure Piel and Kenobi could take out wo battle droids with their hands tied behind their backs, but okay (I swear, there isn't even one behind the prisoners). R2, hacking the security systems, learns about that, and the B1s are kind enough to repeat everything he beeps so we know that, so he decides to free them. By just walking to the guards and saying "We'll handle it from here." The bestest prison in the galaxy, everyone!

Okay, Ahsoka climbing the barriers around the metal ladder rather than the ladder itself like some kind of space-monkey is way too precious. Tarkin starts whining and says he doesn't trust Kenobi's capacity. "You lack faith in the Jedi?" asks an undisturbed Anakin. Tarkin explains that he thinks their code prevents them from doing whatever it taakes to win. Skywalker is all like "oh, you're a space-fascist too? UwU." I think this is the beginning of an ugly friendship. They get to the rendezvous-point but, of course there's no shuttle nor any ally there. Lots of droids though. Anakin throws a bomb in the fuel line and decides to get to Obi-Wan's position. Meanwhile Sobek is told his prisoners... absconded again and that Dooku wants to talk to him. He tells his dorids to tell Dooku he's unreachable and mobilizes towards the airfield since they're bound to go there, eventually.

Obi-Wan and his posse try to bluff their way onboard the shuttle but the tactical droid warns the guards not to let them come aboard. abatlle starts and the droids are using turrets that are encircling the area, so the republicans aren't in a good spot. Anakin and his gang join up. Tarkin wants to rush their way into the shuttle while Kenobi thinks they should deal with the turrets before. The argument is interrupted by droids on jetbike and the battle descends into chaos. Anakin and Piel get on a jetbike and later crashes (very noticeable CGI failure with the way Piel's hair doesn't react all). A commando droid take over a turret and destroys the shuttle... along with Echo. Well, that explains his look in the Bad Batch trailer. Kenobi orders a retreat. As they leave they request the Council for a rescue. In the meantime they are going to have to hide in and traverse the especially inhospitable terrain surrounding the Citadel (it's part of the defenses, a bit like how the gulags didn't need big walls, because the camps themselves were less deadly than the Siberia around).

*Cause he's a reptile! Geddit? Huh.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

Another good episode. It's got a good pace and the action is varied enough. Not much happened in it strictly speaking but it doesn't drag on. Sobek is both surprisingly competent and strikingly dumb. Like he manages to predict their moves but then he goes to make some really idiotic mistakes. I'm not sure what that tells about the intellect of our heroes. Tarkin and Anakin making fun (while Ahsoka disapproves) seems like it's going to be the main plot point of this arc really. Which is good, it makes sense that these two met before Vader. Tarkin whining and second-guessing Kenobi is a bit funny but very appropriate character-wise. Turns out Mr. "Order and Discipline" doesn't like it when he is the one who's got to obey, eh? Colour me unsurprised. Also I like that the man who would go on to spearhead the Death Star consistently wants to implement the most brutish, forward, casualty-heavy tactic. Some nice subtle characterization.

Next up: Citadel Rescue

[Keltest]

Empire aside, Anakin and tarkin actually have a point. Their existence as a religious order not directly integrated into the main government really makes the Jedi terrible candidates for military leadership. Ideals aside, their priorities are not determined by the government, so there's an inherent conflict of interest there.

[Fyraltari]

Empire aside, Anakin and tarkin actually have a point. Their existence as a religious order not directly integrated into the main government really makes the Jedi terrible candidates for military leadership. Ideals aside, their priorities are not determined by the government, so there's an inherent conflict of interest there.

Right, but that isn't at all what they mean.