Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Fyraltari]

Honestly, i dislike Krell as a villain here because apparently even before he decided to openly betray the republic, he was a terrible general and a terrible jedi. Every Jedi from Yoda on down respects the clones as living individuals, because thats just who the Jedi are, except for this guy apparently. And they still let him be in charge in spite of his massive casualty rates and visible disrespect towards the lives under his command? How did he ever get as far as he did in the first place?

He may have been better as a padawan commander or something here. Really force the issue of competence versus chain of command, and show the corrupting effects the war is having on the more impressionable Jedi.

Thing is, he apparently won every battle he was in charge of. The war has only been going on for one or two years at this point and the GDA doesn't seem to be the kind of place where a clone can file a formal complaint about his superior so provided he toned down the aggressiveness in front of his colleagues it's not unreasonable.

Also forgot to say that: how did he fake that message about the stolen armours?

[Keltest]

Winning a battle at like a third of the effectiveness of any other general isnt exactly a ringing endorsement.

[Precure]

Krell is one of those guys you just love to hate, someone you watch to see their comeuppance.

[Fyraltari]

Winning a battle at like a third of the effectiveness of any other general isnt exactly a ringing endorsement.

Yes, but it's not like the Republic was going to demote him for having higher casualty rates than everybody else, since being a Jedi Master makes you a general automatically and the Republic does not care about the lives of the clones.

[Keltest]

Yes, but it's not like the Republic was going to demote him for having higher casualty rates than everybody else, since being a Jedi Master makes you a general automatically and the Republic does not care about the lives of the clones.

The republic wouldnt, but the Jedi might. Not every Jedi was a serving general, and even if he won, if he depletes the ranks of the clones that severely its kind of meaningless. To say nothing of his wanton disregard for life and limb of his troops that should disqualify him from jedi general status automatically. Put him in charge of security somewhere or something like that.

[Mechalich]

With regard to Krell's record, it's worth noting that a significant number of Jedi are losing the battles they lead, because the Jedi, on the whole, have no war college training and no idea how to actually prosecute a war in space. Anakin, after all, is the best or second best (it's him or Obi-Wan) general in the whole blasted GAR, and he's not a master. Several other Knights, notably Ayla Secura, also become high-powered generals because they turn out to be a lot better at this whole war thing than the typical Jedi who can't lead their army out of a paper bag. This would matter more is the Separatist officers were any better, but for the most part, they're equally terrible corporatists who think about war as an economics term paper. Remember, Grievous is the best general the Separatists have. The overall incompetence of both sides fighting the Clone Wars at the leadership level is an interesting factor in the war as a whole and has certain historical parallels we can't discuss.

Of course, the Jedi do get a lot better at war of the course of the Clone Wars. Successful Jedi acquire experience, learn to listen to their Clones, and get promoted, while incompetent Jedi mostly die because unlike Krell they lead from the front and pay for their bad decisions with their lives by making heroic final stands. The Jedi Order takes huge casualties during the Clone Wars but the surviving Jedi at the end are the head of a lean mean fighting machine that has acquired mastery over the current demands of warfare. Yet another reason Palpatine absolutely has to get rid of them.

[Fyraltari]

The republic wouldnt, but the Jedi might. Not every Jedi was a serving general, and even if he won, if he depletes the ranks of the clones that severely its kind of meaningless. To say nothing of his wanton disregard for life and limb of his troops that should disqualify him from jedi general status automatically. Put him in charge of security somewhere or something like that.

Thing is, the Jedi are busy, I don't think they have time to police each other very much. Padawans and Knights are probably under a lot more scrutiny than Masters who are expected to be good. Besides Rex who already knew him by reputation had a high opinion of him when they first met. It seems to me that his decision to sabotage his side was relatively recent and that until then he was an excellent tactician. He says he intended to actually defect once the battle for Umbara was over (and his "the enemy is wearing our armour" trick was doomed to be discovered at some point so he was likely telling the truth) so it's also possible he simply wasn't as blatant about it before.
Since he would be the one making the reports to the Jedi Council, it'd be easy for him to point all of his tactical choices as the most sensible ones (if the clones hadn't stolen the fighters twice to solve the situations and the 501st had gone with his plan, the Council would never had known there were other viable tactics, for example). And for a while he could justify higher than average casualty numbers with "I was assigned tougher than average battles", which given his reputation would probably be true.

Could he have sustained that behaviour long term? No. But for a few months with all the other Jedi busy fighting their own battles? I buy it.

[Sapphire Guard]

When every episode has a crazy plan that makes no sense, how can we tell the plans that are supposed to be crazy plans that make no sense from every other plan?

[pendell]

This is what the Clone Wars were for I think. To get the Jedi separated, isolated, out of touch with each other , surrounded by the chaos and general dark-sided nature of war. You would expect, in those circumstances, some of them to fall all the way to the dark side as this Jedi did. Even those who remain upstanding are clouded, compromised, out of touch with the Force and with each other. That makes them easier prey when Order 66 rolls around.

It also makes it easier to get the clones to carry out Order 66 without needing inhibitor chips or violate their moral conscience. In the movies, we see the best of the Jedi Order in Yoda or in Mace Windu or in Obi-Wan Kenobi. But if you're a clone who's had to arrest or kill a rogue Jedi or two, if the worst of them are traitors mad with power such as this episode's antagonist while the best are remote, unattached beings like Yoda seen occasionally on hologram, well, Order 66 becomes very easy. It doesn't feel like a genocide to the ordinary trooper. It feels more like putting down a mad dog.

The Jedi lost the Clone Wars by fighting them at all. Perhaps that is the lesson we were supposed to learn on the bridge of the Death Star in Ep. VI when Luke threw his lightsaber away? That fighting the Dark Side with the Dark Side is ultimately futile? That even if you fight Vader it is only to become Vader in his place?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

This is what the Clone Wars were for I think.

Partially. The main point of the Clone War was to get the people at large to agree to a gradual increase in Palpatine's powers and authoritarian policies (such as the creation of the GAR in the first place) and provide the necessary boogeyman (the Outer Rim nonhumans) that all totalitarian regimes require.

[Jasdoif]

Partially. The main point of the Clone War was to get the people at large to agree to a gradual increase in Palpatine's powers and authoritarian policies (such as the creation of the GAR in the first place) and provide the necessary boogeyman (the Outer Rim nonhumans) that all totalitarian regimes require.

Also to spread the Jedi thin enough to have their numbers reduced piecemeal, until wiping them out en masse was on the table.

It's hard to say which was the primary point..or if there was a primary point, as there's a lot of interaction between those goals.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's Palpatine. There are always plans within plans.

The problem with not fighting the Clone Wars is that doesn't help either. You just end up with Obi and Padme dead in the arena, Anakin either dead or turned, and the war starts anyway. The Jedi either die with the Clones, or die when the Droids march in. Still a lose-lose.

[Fyraltari]

The problem with not fighting the Clone Wars is that doesn't help either. You just end up with Obi and Padme dead in the arena, Anakin either dead or turned, and the war starts anyway. The Jedi either die with the Clones, or die when the Droids march in. Still a lose-lose.

Not necessarily, even after the battle of Geonosis the Jedi were under no obligation to accept the positions of officers in the army. Yoda was the one who brought in the clones apparently on his own authority not the Order's so even if he was called hypocritical for refusing to fight a war he started he could simply have stepped down from his position as Grandmaster. A small sacrifice to preserve his Order's purity of purpose.

[pendell]

Thinking about this, probably the optimal way for the Jedi to end this would have been to detect Palpatine as the Sith Lord and arrest him in the time of Episode 2. I don't see any way to stop the clone wars from happening unless we arrest or kill the two sith lords who are provoking the conflict. I don't see how they could have avoided the events of Episode 2, but perhaps one counterfactual would be if Yoda kept back a significant part of the Jedi Order and made the discovery of the Sith Lord a top priority, rather than allowing it to be put on the back burner while scattering the Jedi across the galaxy at the heads of clone armies. A job they were singularly ill-equipped to perform, having no military training or experience whatsoever, and moreover made them very vulnerable.

I think the reason this happened is because the old Jedi Order was too closely aligned with the Republic itself. They were so worried about enemies without they didn't consider enemies within. They knew that Darth Tyrannus led the Confederacy, so they may have assumed that Republic vs. Confederacy was synonymous with Jedi vs. Sith. That, after all, had been the dichotomy in all the earlier wars and would recur in the time of the Galactic Civil War, between the all-Sith Empire and the all-Jedi Rebel Alliance.

I think they believed so firmly in the external enemy that they didn't realize the Republic they idolized , even loved, was turning into a Sith Empire around them. But they were too focused on the external enemy to realize what was happening until the very end.

So perhaps this could have been avoided if the Jedi had held back a significant part of their investigative and thinking resources and put effort into finding the Sith. That's supposed to be what Jedi are for, after all. Detecting threats through prescience and foiling them before they ever become large enough to be a galactic problem. Presumably that is how they kept the peace for the preceding thousand years.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

They knew that Darth Tyrannus led the Confederacy.

Nitpick: They knew Dooku was a Sith and they knew Jango Fett was hired by a man called Tyranus to serve as a gene-donor but they didn't know these two were one and the same. Else they would have been much warier of the clones.

[Mechalich]

The problem with not fighting the Clone Wars is that doesn't help either. You just end up with Obi and Padme dead in the arena, Anakin either dead or turned, and the war starts anyway. The Jedi either die with the Clones, or die when the Droids march in. Still a lose-lose.

Not exactly. If the Jedi refuse to fight in the Clone Wars then they have to go into seclusion, since a very angry Republic justifiably kicks them out and takes away all their sweet, sweet subsidies. That means the Order has to retreat to Tython or Ossus or some other ancient Jedi world and sit out the war while trying to husband their strength for the aftermath.

The Republic can still use the Clones, though they'll be less effective due to the change in expected leadership and the lack of Jedi special forces options, so the war will be a lot more brutal, the Separatists will do better early on, and an extra handful of superweapons will be used effectively so the number of atrocities (inevitably on both sides) will skyrocket. All things being equal, the Republic still wins since it has a substantially larger population and a substantially larger economy than the CIS but the absence of the Jedi massively ups the variability. For example, with no Jedi around, that crazy scientist probably manages to successfully unleash his modified Blue Shadow Virus and successfully obliterate the population of whole sectors, which could potentially alter the course of the war.

Palpatine would, of course, attempt to covertly wipe out the Jedi wherever they took refuge, but that would be tricky since a camp full of Jedi is awfully hard to infiltrate, and rolling up a fleet to bombard the place would be far too obvious. He'd probably due some damage, but nowhere near enough.

It's also likely that the absence of Jedi from the military leadership would seriously hinder Palpatine's efforts at political consolidation. The perceived trustworthiness of the Jedi surely made voting the Supreme Chancellor additional emergency powers far more palpable that it would have been otherwise for many worlds, and Jedi-empowered military victories drastically reduced the burden of war on worlds that wanted no part of the whole conflict and would have preferred a separate peace to avoid the massive financial burden of warfare (and if Kamino were lost and the Republic had to institute a draft well...). It's very possible that Palpatine would have been unable to retain leadership under these circumstances, especially if the war stretched on to five or six years (the Clone Wars unfold in a remarkably short three years considering the size of the conflict). It's also possible that without the Jedi running interference for him some third-party actor (Maul, Ventress, etc) would have forced a reveal of his force abilities by attempting to assassinate him.

Now, in this situation Palpatine can always go the Sidious route and simply take control of the CIS and attempt to conquer the galaxy that way, and if he sabotages the Republic on the way out he might even succeed, except...the moment he does that the Jedi come roaring back and it becomes yet another Sith War, and the Sith always lose those.

The bottom line is that there is actually a fairly strong case the the Galaxy would have been better off in the long run if the Jedi sat out the Clone Wars, at the cost of immensely more sort term suffering. Legends even established precedent for that course of action. However, the structure of the Clone Army helped to close the trap against that. Because Palpatine had the army programmed to consider the Jedi their leaders, turning aside from the war would mean abandoning not just some statistically projected future casualties, but the vast numbers of clones that desperately needed them, something the Jedi could not bring themselves to do. Even if Yoda or Windu had given that order, a number of Jedi - almost certainly including Anakin and Obi-Wan - would have remained to lead the Clones as part of a militarist faction, just as the Revanchists chose to fight the Mandalorians against the Council's orders thousands of years before.

[Sapphire Guard]

Not necessarily, even after the battle of Geonosis the Jedi were under no obligation to accept the positions of officers in the army. Yoda was the one who brought in the clones apparently on his own authority not the Order's so even if he was called hypocritical for refusing to fight a war he started he could simply have stepped down from his position as Grandmaster. A small sacrifice to preserve his Order's purity of purpose.

The Jedi Order leads a Clone army into battle ( which has been secretly ordered by a Jedi Master) and then claims they aren't involved and have no obligation to fight? Nobody in the entire galaxy would buy that.

The bottom line is that there is actually a fairly strong case the the Galaxy would have been better off in the long run if the Jedi sat out the Clone Wars, at the cost of immensely more sort term suffering.

There's an equal or better case that doing that would be a complete catastrophe.

The Jedi give up their association with the republic (and with it, any authority to restrict Palpatine's power) and go into seclusion. It would be very difficult to find somewhere to go that Dooku doesn't know about, and he can send as many Separatist fleets as he likes to destroy them wherever they hide, armed with things like the Defoliator, Blue Shadow Virus, the Malevolence, etc, and the Jedi now have no army or fleet to defend themselves with, and so are sitting ducks.

Dooku can just tell the CIS leadership 'they're lying about not being involved, a Jedi Master ordered the Clone Army for the republic, we need to destroy them when we have the chance.' and they'll go with it.

Also possible that Palpatine spins the Jedi in exile into 'the Jedi can no longer defend us, we need strong leadership to protect us in our hour of need.'

[Peelee]

It's Palpatine. There are always plans within plans.

He even planned to come back from the dead in a video game! And to retake his Empire, but after he destroyed it!

Palpatine's supposed chessmaster abilities are something I hate. He could very easily have been super adaptable without the necessary plans within plans that make him needlessly "supersmart" which doesn't ever really come into play. He's always adapting, Lucas should just let that be his thing.

Not exactly. If the Jedi refuse to fight in the Clone Wars then they have to go into seclusion, since a very angry Republic justifiably kicks them out and takes away all their sweet, sweet subsidies.

Source?

[Sapphire Guard]

Blaming Lucas for TROS? Really? Years after he was out of the picture?

[Peelee]

Blaming Lucas for TROS? Really? Years after he was out of the picture?

Not for TROS specifically, but for the prequel era works, which established Palps as the supposed great grandmaster. I am rather vocal about blaming the entire sequel trilogy on Abrams, and I apologize for making the two seem conflated there. I just wanted to mock how Palps ended up, and then went back to the source of how he ended up there.

ETA: For example, he didn't adapt to a damn thing in TROS, which made the character even worse. At least Lucas gave him something he was good at, even if Lucas then claimed it was another thing.

[Mechalich]

Source?

The economics of the Jedi Order have never been properly explained, but the Order has no established means to support itself. Its money has to come from the government somehow, and much of the equipment they use - especially military grade starfighters - is illegal for civilians to own. The Order may own the land own the Jedi Temple itself, but it's equally possible it's merely leased in perpetuity and the Republic could seize it at any time if they wished to do so.

Legends includes at least two relevant examples. First, in SWTOR, after the Treaty of Coruscant the Jedi were kicked out of official circles as part of the agreement and had to decamp to Tython. So we know the Republic has the power to boot the Order out if it wishes. Second, in the post-NJO EU the Galactic Alliance threatened the Jedi Order's funding on multiple occasions in order to make the Jedi play ball with government priorities.

Ultimately the Jedi Order is a state-supported religious organization (the USA explicitly prohibits these, which I think often confuses American fans as to the nature of the Jedi Order). The state can kneecap the Jedi at any time simply by withdrawing support. Under normal circumstances the Jedi have sufficient political clout and popular support that this is utterly inconceivable (and the Republic's very organization makes taking drastic steps nearly impossible anyway), but if the Jedi had refused to fight during the Clone Wars? Oh yeah, Palpatine could have pushed that through.

[Fyraltari]

Not exactly. If the Jedi refuse to fight in the Clone Wars then they have to go into seclusion, since a very angry Republic justifiably kicks them out

Why? I mean Palpatine certainly would if he could, but, as established by that very film, fighting the Republic's wars isn't the Jedi Order's mandate.

The Jedi Order leads a Clone army into battle ( which has been secretly ordered by a Jedi Master)

Again Yoda lead the Clone Army into battle and with the specific intent of rescuing Obi-Wan not starting a war. The Jedi are literally not part of the army at this point. They could have just refused to be integrated into it and still serve the republic in the same capacity as they did since the fall of the Sith. And again if somebody wants to blame them for what happened, Yoda can take the blame since, y'know he is actually the one to blame (within the Republic at least) for escalading this into a full-fledge battle.

[Mechalich]

Why? I mean Palpatine certainly would if he could, but, as established by that very film, fighting the Republic's wars isn't the Jedi Order's mandate.

The public believes the Jedi Order serves them as guardians and defenders. They think the Jedi are obligated to protect them (most of the Jedi actually think this too, which is why if Yoda refused to fight it would cause a schism). Additionally, Palpatine and other Sith before him have spent decades to centuries working to turn public opinion against the Jedi to the point that by the time the Clone Wars begin many people are edging into 'necessary evil' territory with regards to the Jedi Order. If the Jedi Order refuses to fight on the behalf of the Republic the 'necessary' part vanishes and there will be a huge surge in anti-Jedi sentiment and a movement to vote away the support the government provides the Order. So if the Jedi refuse to fight, they will lose the ability to conduct their ordinary operations (many of which are suspended by the war anyway).

And Sapphire Guard is correct that without public support the Jedi are somewhat vulnerable to outside attack. However, they're wrong in that Dooku would easily find them. The galaxy is vast and there's about 10 billion places an organization with a five-figure membership could go and avoid notice more or less forever. In fact, they wouldn't even need to leave the Core, the single planet of Alderaan is fully capable of accommodating the entire Jedi Order in secret in perpetuity (and Alderaan harbored Jedi in the past under similar circumstances, as seen in SWTOR).

[Peelee]

The economics of the Jedi Order have never been properly explained, but the Order has no established means to support itself. Its money has to come from the government somehow, and much of the equipment they use - especially military grade starfighters - is illegal for civilians to own. The Order may own the land own the Jedi Temple itself, but it's equally possible it's merely leased in perpetuity and the Republic could seize it at any time if they wished to do so.

Legends includes at least two relevant examples. First, in SWTOR, after the Treaty of Coruscant the Jedi were kicked out of official circles as part of the agreement and had to decamp to Tython. So we know the Republic has the power to boot the Order out if it wishes. Second, in the post-NJO EU the Galactic Alliance threatened the Jedi Order's funding on multiple occasions in order to make the Jedi play ball with government priorities.

Ultimately the Jedi Order is a state-supported religious organization (the USA explicitly prohibits these, which I think often confuses American fans as to the nature of the Jedi Order). The state can kneecap the Jedi at any time simply by withdrawing support. Under normal circumstances the Jedi have sufficient political clout and popular support that this is utterly inconceivable (and the Republic's very organization makes taking drastic steps nearly impossible anyway), but if the Jedi had refused to fight during the Clone Wars? Oh yeah, Palpatine could have pushed that through.

None of that tells me "The Jedi Order is a militant wing of the Republic".

[Keltest]

If were going to draw on the old canon, a gathering of Jedi in the tens of thousands would create a glare in the force equivalent to looking at the sun. Palpatine and Dooku wouldnt even have to look to find them, that many jedi together might as well be deliberately lighting a "Jedi Hideout Here!" sign in bright neon colors. In KoToR 2, such a gathering was even specifically detected and attacked by a Sith Lord, wiping out a substantial part of the order, as well as the entire planet's population.

None of that tells me "The Republic is a militant wing of the Republic".

I assume you mean "the Jedi is a militant wing of the Republic" there.

Given that they call themselves knights, its not an entirely unreasonable assumption even without any other supporting data. The title meant more than just warrior, it was basically akin to being declared a shock trooper in times of battle, and frequently an officer as well, depending on who you served. You could be a warrior or soldier without being a knight, but not really the reverse. They might, possibly, be able to get away with backing out of the conflict and continuing to serve as mediators if they chose to ignore the obvious fact that Jedi, specifically, were being targeted by the Clone Wars, but given the lack of a formal Republic army, i think its fair to say that the Jedi were de facto the Republic's military arm as of the start of the Clone Wars.

[Mechalich]

If were going to draw on the old canon, a gathering of Jedi in the tens of thousands would create a glare in the force equivalent to looking at the sun. Palpatine and Dooku wouldnt even have to look to find them, that many jedi together might as well be deliberately lighting a "Jedi Hideout Here!" sign in bright neon colors. In KoToR 2, such a gathering was even specifically detected and attacked by a Sith Lord, wiping out a substantial part of the order, as well as the entire planet's population.

Canon is contradictory on this point, as large numbers of Jedi absolutely did hide out undetected by the Sith on numerous occasions (for example, the Jedi hid out on Ossus to avoid Valkorion's purges during SWTOR), and of course large numbers of Sith managed to regularly do the converse. Kotor 2 is often a very bad source - in some ways deliberately - and is not dispositive.

Given that they call themselves knights, its not an entirely unreasonable assumption even without any other supporting data. The title meant more than just warrior, it was basically akin to being declared a shock trooper in times of battle, and frequently an officer as well, depending on who you served. You could be a warrior or soldier without being a knight, but not really the reverse. They might, possibly, be able to get away with backing out of the conflict and continuing to serve as mediators if they chose to ignore the obvious fact that Jedi, specifically, were being targeted by the Clone Wars, but given the lack of a formal Republic army, i think its fair to say that the Jedi were de facto the Republic's military arm as of the start of the Clone Wars.

The situation is complex. The Jedi Order works closely with members of the Judicial Department - the closest thing the Republic has to an army prior to the GAR's formation - and we see Jedi use of Judicial assets and personal at the beginning of Episode I. However, the Order also clearly retains a considerable amount of autonomy and to a very great extent is not subject to direct civic authority at all.

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A good example of this is found in TCW itself, in the episode 'The Wrong Jedi.' This episode makes it clear that members of the Jedi Order are subject to Jedi law, not Republic law, so long as they are members of the Order, because the Senate has to prevail upon the Order to expel Ahsoka before she can be tried by the Republic. However, the Council agrees to do this, which is illustrative of just how much pressure can be brought against the Order when the Republic wishes.

The Jedi Order is a militant religious order that is granted substantial privileges by the government - in this case the Republic, note that other governments, such as the Hutts, do not extend such privileges, which is a big part of why Qui-Gon does things the way he does on Tatooine in TPM - in return for the expectation of certain services. If the Jedi Order fails to provide those services the government is liable to rescind those privileges. There are, of course, extremely clear historical examples of how this works, but forum rules prohibit their discussion.

[Jasdoif]

The situation is complex. The Jedi Order works closely with members of the Judicial Department - the closest thing the Republic has to an army prior to the GAR's formation - and we see Jedi use of Judicial assets and personal at the beginning of Episode I. However, the Order also clearly retains a considerable amount of autonomy and to a very great extent is not subject to direct civic authority at all.

The most coherent explanation I can distill, from the often-contradictory sources, is that the Republic considers the Jedi Order to technically be part of the Judicial Department; one that's been granted an extremely high degree of internal autonomy to perform its function. The Jedi Order, conversely, doesn't consider itself to be under the authority of the Republic; but their own core tenets include duties towards the Republic specifically, so it's exceedingly rare for conflict between these views to come up.

[Peelee]

I assume you mean "the Jedi is a militant wing of the Republic" there.

I do appreciate the thought process of "I am aware that Peelee is not a smart man, but that one is kind of pushing it even for him."

Anyway, the Jedi (via of Yoda, a Jedi Master who held titles of both Grand Master and Master of the Jedi Order, and thus probably a fairly authoritative source on the subject) held to "only for defense, never for attack," "wars not make one great", and other such noncombative teachings. I would suggest that the Knight title, if it referred to a militant role at all, was a holdover from a bygone era, potentially millennia past.

[Mechalich]

The most coherent explanation I can distill, from the often-contradictory sources, is that the Republic considers the Jedi Order to technically be part of the Judicial Department; one that's been granted an extremely high degree of internal autonomy to perform its function. The Jedi Order, conversely, doesn't consider itself to be under the authority of the Republic; but their own core tenets include duties towards the Republic specifically, so it's exceedingly rare for conflict between these views to come up.

The Order considers it has a duty to the Force and therefore to the people. The Republic is the representative of the people and as such service to the Republic is the only logical and practical option. However, if the Republic ceases to be the representative of the people the Jedi Order can stand aside. In Legends they did so during the Pius Dea Era, when the Republic was lost to theocracy. And they did so again during the Mandalorian Wars and numerous other smaller conflicts. And at the end of RotS, the Order also came to the conclusion that the Republic, under Palpatine, was no longer representative and they were prepared to overthrow it. This failed, but during the post-NJO Legends period the Jedi came to this conclusion again (twice), and succeeded in overthrowing the government.

Anyway, the Jedi (via of Yoda, a Jedi Master who held titles of both Grand Master and Master of the Jedi Order, and thus probably a fairly authoritative source on the subject) held to "only for defense, never for attack," "wars not make one great", and other such noncombative teachings. I would suggest that the Knight title, if it referred to a militant role at all, was a holdover from a bygone era, potentially millennia past.

The in-universe historical record suggests that while Yoda may be correct philosophically, as a practical matter he is absolutely full-of-it when it comes to spouting these one-liners.

Honestly, Yoda's legacy is actually really bad, and he made an awful lot of mistakes in when it comes to the downfall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire. He and Mace Windu botched things pretty hard, something TCW actually hits strongly in seasons to come.

[Fyraltari]

So the next episode isn't about what Qnakin was doing while **** was going down on Umbara.

Also despite being called "Kidnapped" it is entirely Padmé-free. That feels wrong.