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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    This sort of thing depends heavily on how slavery is defined, and is not helped by rather loose language usage by various EU authors. Specifically, it depends on whether or not a difference is specified between an enslaved person and a forced laborer.

    A very strict definition of slavery refers only to persons who have been reduced in status to property, and may be treated as livestock, as in Chattel Slavery. The Empire does not appear to have practiced chattel slavery to any significant degree (though it turned a blind eye to the practice among the Hutts and other groups). However, the Empire employed forced labor more or less constantly. Anyone imprisoned for a crime, captured in a conflict, or otherwise condemned by the state could, and often was, made to labor on Imperial projects at gunpoint (many, such as the Wookiees laboring on the Death Star, were summarily executed when those projects were completed). Such people are enslaved, but they aren't property, or at least, they are not the property of private citizens.
    In SW, a forced labourer of this kind could be described as having been "enslaved as punishment". Being "able to be the property of a private citizen", is not a requirement, to be a slave.

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Slavery/Legends

    Unfortunately, after the rise of the Empire, slavery was once again given a degree of legitimacy with the issuance of Imperial Decree A-SL-4557.607.232. Citizens could now be enslaved as punishment for "crimes against the civil order".[16] Non-Humans and Human critics of the New Order alike were rounded up and enslaved en-masse for work on such projects as the Death Star.

    In addition, early into the Empire's formation, the 501st Legion had been ordered by Emperor Palpatine to sell Nosaurian women and children into a slave market at Orvax IV. The Empire's enforcer, Darth Vader, learned of this during a debriefing for the Cleansing of New Plympto when Commander Vill let slip about the Emperor's order. Vader grew despondent enough at the revelation as a result that he abruptly ended his presence at the debriefing and could not fall asleep that night, due to remembering his own time as a slave. He later revealed what he had learned to the Emperor, and ultimately let it continue despite his misgivings after the Emperor told him the Imperial way was "different."[17]

    Agorffi,[18] Wookiees, Yuzzem, and Talz were exploited for their strength while the Mon Calamari and the Givin were used for their famous ship-building skills. Also the Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians were enslaved for their mining skills, the Gamorreans and Gungans were enslaved for military operations and the Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Meanwhile, the Empire frequently ignored the trade of Twi'lek girls, who were enslaved for their beauty.[19] Officially, however, regarding alien species such as Wookiees, those deemed to be non-sentient were not considered enslaved, but "domesticated."[20]
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-09-17 at 08:36 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #782
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    All of which is to say that slave labor is a truly terrible investment compared to automation (which doesn't care about things like morale) or the work of free beings fairly compensated. If Star Wars societies have slaves, it's because they haven't advanced in some ways beyond what was possible even in our nineteenth century.

    But then, wasn't it Mechalich who pointed out that Star Wars, from a social science perspective, exists in about 1830 our time?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Slavery still exists in our modern world, just not (probably given your post) in the country you live in.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slav...e_21st_century

    As technology advances, slavery gets pushed more and more to the edges of the economy. This doesn't seem that inconsistent with the star wars universe, where the edge of the economy is literally the edge of the Galaxy.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Season 4, Episode 12: Slaves of the Republic

    Spoiler: Recap
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    Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka and Rex travel to Zygerria inside Danar's ship to track down the abducted togrutas. Although the boys already wear their disguises (zygerrian armour), Ahsoka is still in her normal get-up so it'll be more surprising later. There are like six other ships going to the planet which is apparently a lot since they comment on it. Anakin mentions a spy on the inside (which isn't mentioned at any other time in the episode) who gave them intelligence on the queen. Rex and Kenobi are to find the missing colonist while Anakin and Ahsoka, posing as master and slave, distract the queen. Skywalker intends to distract her with his natural charm. I'd make a comment but he has a perfect record of seducing queens so far. Somehow. Ahsoka isn't exactly thrilled at playing the part of the slave, and I can't blame her.

    Ahsoka (who is now wearing big concealing robes)) wonders how a civilisation this advanced could still be practicing slavery. Anakin replies that it makes them feel powerful at the expanse of others. Sure, let's go with that. The marketplace is a bit of a who's who of the show's evil races. There are neimodians, muuns, those snake-people some of whom were smugglers on Mandalore and I think I spotted a weeqay, later there's a Hut. Almsot surprised I didn't see any quarren. Also to keep the fanservice up, there's a kowakian lizard-monkey knife fight and a twi'lek slave in a metal bikini just like Leia's. Anakin and Ahsoka come across a zygerrian yelling at a twi'lek slave who has fallen to the ground to get up. The slave says his bounds are too heavy which is frankly hilarious, since he's not wearign any! The owner tries to whip him but Ahsoka intervenes. Anakin steps up and asks she be forgiven since "she's freshly caught". This somehow works and the guy starts wondering how come Anakin wears zygerrian armour while clearly not being zygerrian. Anakin says he's here for an audience with the queen. He hasn't got an appointment, so the zygerrian is reluctant to introduce him, but he says he brings news of a certain Bruno Denturi and a nearby droid immediately says he has to be escorted to the palace to see the queen.

    Turns out the queen is conventionally attractive and doesn't even have the bony protrusion the male zygerrians have on their lower jaws. Color me shooked. The zygerrian introduces Anakin as "Lars Quell". Turns out the queen hates Denturi with a passion but that's not an issue since the "news" Skywalker brings is that he's killed him. Ahsoka "a slave from his palace" is there as proof. Anakin starts shamelessly flattering the queen who starts flirting back while looking over Ahsoka (who is out of her big robes showing a form-fitting dress underneath) and calling her a "fine stock" and beautiful. She's like thirteen, right? Yuck. Ahsoka completely fails at not acting assertive, though. So the queen says she'll have to be "processed". Then Anakin and the queen go for a walk.

    Meanwhile, in an other part of the city, Rex and Kenobi have found the leader of the Togruta in a pretty big cell. Obi-Wan goes to talk to him but he's too frightened and in poor health to talk. They stea some kind of huge lizard-thing that serves as a mount that can somewhat fly thanks to falps of skin between its limb, flying suqirrel-style. Nice design, it's a bit more creative than the usual dragons. Unfortunately they are sotted by the guards who shoot Obi-wan down. He falls to the ground taking the governor with him while rEx escapes alone.

    Meanwhile, on the palace balcony, the queen is justifying slavery with the usual social darwinist garbage (is that her only topic of conversation?) and offerign "Lars" a job. She's interrupted by her twi'lek waitress who jumps at her with a knife. Anakin saves the queen, who decides the twi'lek will need more "processing". Rather than go "back there" the twi'lek jumps over the side to her death. The queen decides to buy Ahsoka as a replacement and Skywalker gives here as a gift. This prompts the queen to invite him as a guest of honour next to her at the upcoming slave auction.

    Meanwhile, Obi-wan is getting whipped through his shirt. However, the zygerrian that introduced Anakin recognizes him. He was with Dooku on the ither side of the holocall with Danar that Kenobi interrupted and indentifies him as a Jedi. Cut to the auction, the governor is shoved into an area as a representative of "no less than 50 000 beings!" Okay, but couldn't you find one more young and fit to serve as advertisment? He looks like he'll die if someone sneezes too loudly. Then again, apparently eh main selling point is that their lack of combat training means no rebellion. Anakin starts fishing for the location of the rest of his people with all the subtlety of an armoured tank in a china shop, but he's interrupted by the zygerrian officer(?) who tells the queen about Obi-Wan. The queen has Kenobi brought to the arena and says the Jedi are weak for they have abandoned their ideals to serve a corrupt Senate and became slaves to the Republic.
    Spoiler: My reaction
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    Then she hands Anakin a whip and tells him to "teach the Jedi his place." Anakin gets to Kenobi and the queen insists he whips Kenobi to prove to her he's a slaver. You know everyone can hear you, right? If he doesn't, he'll be executed too. Anakin nods to Ahsoka, Rex (who is in the audience) and R2 who is in the queen's lodge. And R2 throws everybody's lightsabers at them, RotJ-style. Fighting ensues. Kenobi and Skywalker take out the guards in the arena while Ahsoka wipes out the queen's bodyguards. Rex takes a couple of soldiers out but gets thrown in the arena. Ahsoka holds the queen at... err... lightsaber-point? and calls her slave empire finished. Again. The queen pushes a button on her throne and the collar that she was apparently wearing all along shocks the padawn into unconsciousness. An entire troop of fresh guards, armed with whips gets into the arena. Since their whips are electrified they manage to take Kenobi out relatively quickly but it takes no less than six whips together to knock Anakin out. The queen is rather impressed.

    Anakin awakes alone with the queen in her bedchamber. She says that half the kingdom as well as Dooku wants him dead. He strangles her (careful Ani, this is turning into a habit) but she says that his friends will die if he keeps misbehaving. Then she calls him a curious Jedi when he lets her go. Were you expecting him to kill you? She calls him her servant and even hands him his lightsaber to serve as her bodyguard. Meanwhile Ahsoka is inside a (surprisingly roomy) cage hanging off the palace. The zygerrian officer tells her the queen will give her to him once the other Jedi is tamed and she Force-shoves off the ledge. He catches himself and climbs back on the roof and then gives her a couple shocks. Meanwhile meanwhile, Rex and Kenobi are taken to another planet to the prison where the colonists from Kyros are held. The warden is a blue-furred zygerrian with two fewer bone-protusions than the others. I guess he's from an ethnic minority? The warden welcomes Kenobi and immediately says that the Jedi are famous for their resolve, but strength of will is his enemy. And he has eight colonists thrown to their death in an abyss. I would say that even from a purely profit-based perspective, this is wasteful, but when you look at the mortality rates of real-world slavery... Anyway the point is that should Obi-Wan defy him, he won't be the one to pay for it.

    Meanwhile, the queen and Anakin are flying through the air. She guesses he was once a slave from his "selfless commitment." She says that commitment at the cost of oneself is slavery but t=if he stood willingly besides her, there's nothing they couldn't accomplish. I think I can hear Sidious laughing half a galaxy away. She's really touchy-feely for the entire conversation. They arrive to what I guess is her secondary residence and she offers to free his friends if he promises to stay and serve her. She thinks a Jedi as noble as him gave his word, he might keep it. he doesn't trust her, but she points out she's been completely honest with him from the beginning. And she concludes that his friends's future is in his hand, they will only stay salves as long as he lets them be.


    Spoiler: My thoughts
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    Why do I get the feeling this episode/arc has a looooot more fan art than the others?
    The queen is a much better antagonist than Darts, if a bit cliché (I swear if she changes her evil ways because of Anakin's manly wiles...).

    So, did they kill that Denturi fellow in preparation for this mission or what? Also why was Skywalker wearing zygerrian armour if the plan was for him to introduce himself as a foreigner anyway? Also, Dooku is going to be furious when he hears the queen has Anakin and Obi-Wan in her power but is actively choosing not to kill them because she is on a power trip.

    While I do look forward to see how they get out of this one, I hope the warden dude won't just be a retread of the guy from the Citadel.


    Next up: Escape from Kadavo.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-09-21 at 06:22 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Re slavery, droids are decent at manual labour, it depends on what you use them for. Human pilots and soldiers appear to outperform droid armies on the whole, unless they are very high end. Anakin is a pilot and low grade mechanic at 9, he's pretty valuable. Shmi likely also has some relevant skill.

    We don't really see slavery used as large scale manual labour very often. Per that Kaminoan in AOTC (admittedly while talking up his merch, creative thinking is the big advantage)

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Re slavery, droids are decent at manual labour, it depends on what you use them for. Human pilots and soldiers appear to outperform droid armies on the whole, unless they are very high end. Anakin is a pilot and low grade mechanic at 9, he's pretty valuable. Shmi likely also has some relevant skill.

    We don't really see slavery used as large scale manual labour very often. Per that Kaminoan in AOTC (admittedly while talking up his merch, creative thinking is the big advantage)
    The general theory of Star Wars droid functionality is that droids struggle to adapt to new conditions, especially when changing rapidly - battlefields just happen to fit those criteria perfectly in a nice bit of retroactive reasoning. Advanced droids can, and are, used for extremely high-skill tasks and are sometimes better than even the best organic comparatives due to the physical limitations of biology. A medical droid, for example, is better at microsurgery than any organic doctor, because they and operate directly at the micron scale. However it's very difficult for them to learn new medical techniques. The scene in the Mandalorian, where IG-11 is painstakingly retrained to perform very simple domestic tasks, is a good example of this.

    It was also submitted that if you do go and train droids to learn new ways of doing things the resulting programming paths will evolve in untested and unpredictable ways and the results may be rather dangerous. IG-11 is again a good example, because training an assassin droid to serve as a caregiver results in producing the bodyguard of doom. That particular example worked out well, but sometimes letting a droid evolve results in a xenocidal monster like IG-88 that wants to exterminate all organic life. So this sort of thing is discouraged and droids are regularly scheduled for memory wipes as part of ordinary maintenance (this also prevents them from developing independent consciousness, which nicely elides some nasty issues).

    For the above reasons organic sapients in Star Wars are generally somewhat leery of droids supervising other droids across complex multi-level hierarchies. 'Droid supervisor/mechanic' is quite likely to be the most common job in the Star Wars universe (certainly most of the work Luke was actually doing on his Uncle's moisture farm involved supervising droids).
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Season 4, Episode 13: Escape from Kadavo

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    we open in Kenobi's prison, that doubles as a work camp. The warden taunts him for a bit and we are shown that the slaves spend all day shoveling something coal-like, carrying it in pushcarts to and from furnaces and manually keeping some huge gears moving. Yup, really require slaves to get keep this factory running. Automation wouldn't help at all... I kid, the place's real purpose is to break the new slaves' spirit as Obi-Wan points out. But still. One guard start whipping Kenobi for talking when speech is forbidden. Then he whips another slave for Kenobi's infraction. When the Jedi protests he gets electrocuted and the guard start whipping the togruta more and more telling Obi-Wan he'll kill him if the Jedi doesn't beg. Which he does, calling him master. When the guards leave the togruta tell Kenobi to stay away from him and that "Jedi only make things worse." Yeah, sure.

    Meanwhile, Dooku is approaching Zygerra in his personal craft while phoning Sidious (somebody take his flyer's licence away!). The Dark Lord of the Sith explains that previous Sith Empires have rune on the back of slaves,and theirs will require millions (bit of a lowball number considering the size of the galaxy, but okay). As a result he doesn't tolerate any defiance on the part of the queen. So he orders Dooku to kill her if she doesn't comply. But the zygerrans are part of the CIS that the Sith intend to ultimately destroy, so I guess the Sith plans to pardon them after the war and have them integrated into the Empire? Did that happen? Or is Sidious lying to Tyrannus to make his own post-war "integration" into the Empire seem more likely?

    In the palace the queen asks Skywalker if he's come to a decision about her offer of freeing the others in exchange for his sworn loyalty. He says it's not an easy decision? Isn't it? You can lie, I don't think anybody would hold it against you. She mocks him for being "selfish". They are interrupted by the zygerran officer who tells her Dooku is there. Anakin calls the Count the queen's master, which she angrily denies. She sends Anakin away and takes his lightsaber, leaving him in the custody of two guards. And then comes R2 who they just allowed to roam freely in the palace? without a restraining bolt or anything! After he launched their lightsabers at the Jedi! Anakin uses the diversion to hide by climbing over the edge of the balcony they are on. One guard leaves to try to find him and he climbs back on and throws the second one to the city below. Dude falls fifty, maybe a hundred meters and survive because he landed on some vegetables. What are these guys made out of? Well, I guess the "Anakin has to choose between his dignity and his friends' safety plot is over. Time to rescue Ahsoka!

    The queen receives Dooku in her throne room. She's surprised he's come uninvited, but he says he was invited. By her advisor, who is concerned about her attachment to Skywalker. She says he is a living symbol of their power to enslave even Jedi. She explains that at that very moment in the Kadavo system, Kenobi is realizing that his attempts to help others will only harm them and that his spirit will gradually break before his powerlessness. As she talks we get a nice montage (although it's only two scenes) of Obi-Wan's life in the prison. and if these two can be made to serve... She tells Dooku to picture an army of Jedi in his service and how invincible, they will be. But Dooku isn't planning on enslaving th eJedi but to exterminate them. So he orders her to summon Skywalker for execution.

    Meanwhile, Anakin found Ahsoka's cage and uses the force to lift her back on solid ground before ripping the door out. Why couldn't she do that? Both of them senses Dooku is there but they don't know where Obi-wan was taken (guess Rex doesn't matter) so Anakin will try to get the queen to tell him while Ahsoka gets the ship ready to leave. Back in the throne room, the queen refuses to be ordered around. The Count simply says that if she won't do his bidding, then her Prime Minister, Atai (hey, he does have a name) will. She gets a whip out calling him a traitor and intending to make the both of them pay. Dooku simply Force-chokes her. That's when Anakin comes in. Dooku threatens the queen's life but Skywalker doesn't care. They start dueling. Anakin is forced to fight with the queen's whip, since he doesn't have his saber, so Dooku easily dominates him (especially once he breaks the Sith Lighting out). Guards come in and Dooku accuses skywalker of killing the queen. Anakin signals Ahsoka to get going via commlink and flees the scene with the queen in his arms. He gets to to the ship and they take off. The queen hands Anakin his lightsaber, tells him where Kenobi his and dies telling him he was right: she is a slave. Can people actually die of strangulation if they're not already dead when the strangling stops? Because that seems to happen a fair bit in this universe. Also, my reaction the queen's death: Oh no, not the *******.

    On Kadavo, Rex and Kenobi are brought to the warden, and holo-Dooku who just wanted to say a proper farewell before the warden, Keeper Argos (meh, needs more eyes) executes him. At that same moment, Anakin and Ahoska, still in Danar's ship, but having changed clothes, land on the prison. Immediately informed, the Keeper has nearby turrets blow the ship to bits. Anakin just starts cutting through the door. Dooku tell Obi-wan to tell Anakin to surrender or they'll start executing the slaves. Obi-wan does so through the door's intercom. But Anakin's done negotiating with slavers. Kenobi tells him he can't win that fight alone, but he's not: cut to a Republic destroyer leaving hyperspace and launching a flight of fighters lead by Plo Koon.

    Wait, Plo's squadron is called "wolfpack"? Why does he gets a cool name when everybody else is "blue-green squadron" or something? Obi-Wan ses the force to get him and rEx out of their electrified collars and they start fighting inside the prison's headquarters. Also, the turrets are ray-shielded so the Republic fighters can't destroy them. Hmm, you know people really ought to ray-shield more stuff in this universe. Anakin and Ahsoka gets inside the facility and start fighting guards. Wait, how did Tano get her lightsabers back? The prison sends a couple fighters of their own, Plo outmaneuvers them by cutting his engines so they overtake him and he shoots them down. That should work in space but not in the atmoshpere where this fight is taking place. In the headquarters, KEnobi and Rex are overpowering the guards but they're too busy to stop Argos for making good on his threat: he has the walls of the cells electrified and the floor retract sot he slaves will fall to their deaths. And he breaks the controls for good measure.

    They can't rescue the slaves until the cannon are destroyed, so Anakin says he'll do it while the cruiser gets to the prison and while Ahsoka helps her people gain some time. She find them, but since the floor is retracting away from the door there's nothing she can do to help. (Oh, no if only somebody with the ability to lift people through the air were there. Maybe they could carry the prisoners to safe ground.) Still, they're glad a Jedi is there. Skywalker gets back to the landing area and jumps ontop of a tower. Turns out they're manned (really against automation these zygerrians, heh?) so he takes it over to destroy the other towers. Apparently they're ammo has enough of a punch to go through ray-shields for some reason. Ahsoka says they"re no-way to get the slaves to the landing area but they can rescue them by bringing the cruiser underneath the facility. The cruiser's admiral agrees and sends some of his men topside with jetpacks (they fly now!) and cable-guns. Kenobi beats the last guards and gets his lightsaber back from Argos (why did he have it?) Argos says he knows a Jedi won't kill an unarmed man, so Rex throws a guard's spear through his chest "I'm no Jedi." What the ****, Rex? You could have taken him prisoner! He's a high-ranking officer, he probably had lots of intel about Zygerria you could have used! (Also the spear goes through his floating chair, but the hole it makes is too small for the head of the spear.)

    The cruiser gets under the facility while Anakin, Obi-wan and Rex take off in a gunship. The togruta come down on the cruiser (some trip and need to get caught) but nobody's harmed. One clone says they have to go because the facility is breaking up (Why? Nobody shot it or anything). Then they leave and blow the place up. Aboard the cruiser, the togruta governor thanks the Republicans for saving them, but Anakin says it was Ahsoka's creativity that did it (what the creativity of "bring the ship under the facility? Really?) The togruta asks for a word in private with her. He's worried it'll take them a long time to recover. She hopes living through it will have made them stronger and the governor decides that Kyros should join the Republic. End of the episode


    Spoiler: My thoughts
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    I didn't expect them to animate 500 000 charcaters, but could they not have made a better effort of making it seems like there were more prisoners than the twenty-or-so odd we saw with Ahsoka? Or are the
    attrition rate that bad in Kadavo?

    Rex's entire reason for being here these last two episodes was apparently so that Kenobi wouldn't kill Argos himself. Why was that necessary.

    The show seemed to think I'd be more sympathetic to the queen than I was. Also, I get what they were going for with the "she's a slave to" angle, but I don't really like the equation of "being literally worked to death" and "boss wouldn't let her keep her boytoy for perfectly valid reasons". Couldn't they have Dooku make more unreasonnable demands, like insisting a chunk of the zygerrian population be made into slaves as well, to finance the war effort or something?


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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dude falls fifty, maybe a hundred meters and survive because he landed on some vegetables. What are these guys made out of?
    What are those vegetables made out of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Meanwhile, Anakin found Ahsoka's cage and uses the force to lift her back on solid ground before ripping the door out. Why couldn't she do that?
    I imagined the collar had something to do with it. Or maybe she was worried that losing her balance and concentration while moving the thing under her feet would be an issue, without any vegetables to soften the fall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Can people actually die of strangulation if they're not already dead when the strangling stops?
    I suppose it would depends on what (if anything) was broken during the strangling....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    (really against automation these zygerrians, heh?)
    Well....I suppose that in a slave-centered economy, the leaders would avoid devaluing their own assets with the introduction of alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Aboard the cruiser, the togruta governor thanks the Republicans for saving them, but Anakin says it was Ahsoka's creativity that did it (what the creativity of "bring the ship under the facility? Really?)
    She thought around the immediate problem of the floor retracting, instead of fixating on stopping or outpacing it; I'd have no problem calling that creative.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Forgot to put it in my review but: They've finally allowed the Jedi to hack and slash some humanoid-looking people. I'm confused why they're doing it now and didn't in the Umbara arc, did the rules change mid-season?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    What are those vegetables made out of?
    What is that foodstand made out of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I imagined the collar had something to do with it. Or maybe she was worried that losing her balance and concentration while moving the thing under her feet would be an issue, without any vegetables to soften the fall?
    The second one makes sense, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I suppose it would depends on what (if anything) was broken during the strangling....
    What like the spine? I guess that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Well....I suppose that in a slave-centered economy, the leaders would avoid devaluing their own assets with the introduction of alternatives.
    Well, at least they're not tasking the slaves with using the weapons. That makes them better than some other fictional slavers I could name.

    She thought around the immediate problem of the floor retracting, instead of fixating on stopping or outpacing it; I'd have no problem calling that creative.
    Meh.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-09-28 at 05:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What like the spine? I guess that makes sense.
    It's more that there's a level 'partially crushed' for the windpipe that is still fatal because it doesn't permit sufficient oxygen to enter the lungs to sustain life. So the victim still suffocates, but because oxygen intake hasn't dropped to zero it takes longer. This can take hours or even days depending on the degree of hypoxia. This is why extremely high mountains have 'death zones' a region above which human life cannot be permanently sustained. Since the Queen was receiving sufficient airflow to speak, however weakly, she probably could have been saved through medical intervention like a pure oxygen breathing supply or being intubated, and hypothetically Anakin could have used the Force to open the windpipe back up, but he never was much of a medic.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    I forgot last time, but I think we can fairly say, that Escape from Kadavo is the first time we see a Jedi openly hacking and slashing at human-like characters rather than droids or giant bugs. Kinda weird they didn't do it on Umbara if they could later on the season.

    Season 4, Episode 14

    Spoiler: Recap
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    so Padmé, finally, finally, made some progress in her peace efforts, and the first ever official meeting between delegates of the Republic and the Confederation is happening on Mandalore. The CIS sent two of their senators we saw last season and a blue lady (the one from the Separatist Council in the movies?), the Republicans sent Padmé, Organa and Mon Mothma with Ahsoka too. I realize, she's there because plot, but what an odd choice in-universe. She's just a Padawan-learner, doesn't this make it look like the Jedi Council doesn't think this is worth their time? I would have expected Kenobi, or at least a Master. If I were the Separatists delegates, I'd feel insulted. In any case, the Separatist demands that the Republicans recognize the CIS as a legitimate state. Padmé doesn't answer. It's the sticking point isn't it? Either they are legitimate and the Republic is carrying out an unjust war or they aren't, in which case, they'd be negotiating with criminals, right now.

    Before she can work her way out of this, the meeting is interrupted... By Lux Bonteri, the son of Padmé's Separatist senator friend who got murdered last season. Lux's alive! Satine, presiding the meeting, allows him to take the floor even though he apparently wasn't invited (they just let him in, like that?). He accuses dooku of murdering his mother, which prompts the separatists to have him removed from the premises and, the meeting carries on. Ahsoka is worried about his life, so Amidala tells her to do what she can, but be discreet. Commando droids take Lux to the Separatist ship and a hologram of Dooku. "You know what you did, Dooku. - Do I? I did a great many things and choose to remember them by order of importance. The death of your mother seems to have escaped me." Damn, that's so cold even a wampa from Hoth would be shocked! During the conversation, Bonteri switches a device on his wrist on without being noticed (unfortunately, no, it's not recording Dooku confessing to murder). Dooku tells the droids to reunite the young senator with his mother. Hold on, he's a senator!? As in, he was elected and all!? What's with Star Wars and underage politicians?

    Ahsoka comes in and destroys the droids bare-handed; They flee the ship and head for the Republican's with commando droids in hot pursuit. They reach it and a whole firefight erupts between the droids and the Senate Guards who were guarding the ship. Real discreet, Ahsoka.
    Their ship gets in orbit and Anakin calls her because Padmé just told him the peace negotiations just collapsed. Lux apologizes to the Jedi Master (urgh) for the trouble, but Ahsoka says it was nothing. What the ****, Ahsoka? At least one Senate Guard just got shot, and you've just ruined the culmination of what, two years of peace efforts in a way that puts the Republic and the Jedi Order clearly at fault! No, it's definitely something! You just know that Dooku is watching this like: "Well, I had a whole plan in place to derail this, but if my former colleagues insist on doing my job for me, who am I to disoblige them?"

    Anyway, Skywalker and Tano decide to bring Bonteri to corsucant, where he'll be safe and see if they can get him an amnesty (my guess is that being a member of the Separatist Senate is an automatic charge of treason? Even though, he wasn't the one who made the call whether to secede or not?). But, when Skywalker hangs up, Lux draws a gun on Ahsoka as he doesn't want to go to Coruscant or join the republic. She easily disarms him and try to convince him to go with her. He doesn't trust the republic to help hims any more than it helped his mother, and says he has a plan, in fact he has already contacted "noble allies" on planet Carlac who share his goal: to kill Dooku. She tells him he's just going to get killed. How did he even planned on escaping the droids without her in the first place? "Like this" he says while putting her to sleep with a taser. Somebody's gotta work on their Jedi reflexes. He apologizes to her, tell R2 Ahsoka was exhausted (this somehow works) and takes over the controls of the ship.

    Ahsoka wakes up some times later after they've landed, with no lightsaber. She spots Lux outside and goes to him while the droid looks for the lightsabers. She confronts him but only gets two sentences in when his allies arrive. And i'ts death Watch! Dun, dun, dun! The Mandos, lead by a woman (I've checked the credits: first appearance* of Bo-Katan!) wonder who Ahsoka is. "I'm his... his... bethrothed!" Really. Bo-Katan calls her skinny and slaps her bottom. Well, that's just great writing, right there. R2 (who has th elightsabers) shows up too, and Bo-Katan decides to leave. Ahsoka is absolutely not thrilled to be dealing with terrorists who she's sure will kill them both while Lux insists it's all under control. She tries to stay with the ship, but they won't have it.

    The Mandalorians have set up camp in what looks like to be the courtyard of some ruined temples and are passing the time by shooting at various droids, something they find hilarious. While they wait for "the Boss" Lux explains his plan to Ahsoka: his device is a holo-tracker that detected the source of Dooku's communication and therefore his locations so that Death Watch can kill him. Doesn't he live on Serenno? Is his big-ass palace supposed to be secret? Or has he gone into hiding after Ventress's "Jedi" assassination attempt? Ahsoka is... not impressed. She restates that Death Watch is a ganag of jedi-hating murderers who will kill them once they have what they want. And that's when the boss walks in behind her. To shut her up, Lux kisses his "bethrothed". I'm rolling my eyes, right now. The boss, who is Pre Vizla, with a bald hair cut and a brad new scar, has "the woman" seen out so he can talk business.Lux wants confirmation that Vizla intends to kill Dooku. Vizla points to his scar and calls it a parting gift from Dooku, and if Bonteri questions him again, he'll give him his own. Err, last we saw Vizla, Dooku was assuring him they "had" other ways to take over Mandalore after their initial plan failed. What happened? Was there a book covering this or what? Lux gives him the device and Vizla calls for a celebration.

    Meanwhile R2 is brought to a tent where the Mandalorians keep the droids when they're not shooting at them and tasked with repairing them so they can make good targets again. All the droids start begging R2 to reassemble them in a rather creepy scene. Bo-Katan takes Ahsoka to a group of local women who were abducted from a local town to
    serve DW as slaves. One warrior comes in and orders them to prepare the feast. At said feast, Lux is seated as aguest next to Vizla, while Ahsoka acts as a waitress. She calls him stupid. I mean, he's over his head, but the only thing going wrong with his plan so far, is your presence, Ahsoka. The feast is interrupted by the chieftain of the local village. He's angry at them for "taking their women, stealing their food and threatening them" and tells them to leave. Vizla agrees and gives his word to return their people by next sunrise. This prompts Lux, who completely missed the sinister glances Vizla shot to his brothers-in-arms to say the DW are better than Ahsoka says.

    By next sunrise, everybody but the droids gets to the village, where the chieftain thanks Vizla for honouring his promise. And then Vizla stabs the chieftain's granddaughter and orders his men to kill everybody. When Lux asks him why, Vizla tells him to "Never, let the weak tell him what to do" and he bids him welcome to death wAtch while waving the Darksaber in front of the burning town hall. Gotta say, that's a cool shot. Ahsoka takes a staff from the ruins and uses it to impale a warrior, before taking another and starts beating the Mandos. However, Pre Vizla has a lightsaber and she has, a stick. She's quickly captured and taken back to camp. They arrive just as R2 is done with the repairs and he sees her prisoner. He asks the droids to prepare a rescue operation. Also, it's either very cloudy or night falls very soon after dawn in this place. Vizla is disappointed in Lux. He asked him to join them in good faith and he brings a Jedi in their camp? When he says he's going to kill Ahsoka, Lux calls him a murderer. Which Pre Vizla find pretty rich coming from someone who asked him for his help in killing a guy. Point Vizla. Lux says he just wants justice. And Vizla retorts that he will give Dooku "justice". Just as will give it to Ahsoka for the Jedi's crimes against Mandalore. R2 barges in spewing smoke and hands Ahsoka her lightsabers. Which she uses to free herself and decapitates four Mandos.

    Vizla draws the Darksaber and demands a duel. He dominates the fight and literally kicks her out of the tent... next to R2's new friends who start shooting at the Mandos. Why did they leave guns where the droids could get them? Ahsoka slashes Vizla's jest pack and tells him she didn't miss. He throws it to the ground just before it explodes. which allows her to get on the speeder that Lux commandeered in the mean time. Vizla can't follow because of no jetpack so he sends Bo-Katan and some more Mandos after them. Ahsoka gets rid of them (although she had to fight Bo-Katan mano a mano to get rid of her (she went under the speeder without getting squished, which contradicts that episode where the "weight" of jetbikes collapsed a bridge)). They get back to their ship and leave.

    However when Ahsoka gets to the commands, R2 tells her the escape pod has been activated. She gets to it before it leaves but the door is locked. Lux tells her he can't go with her and she says they could try to change things together. Silly, Ahsoka, Jedi aren't allowed to date, just ask your master. Lux promises her they'll meet again and she asks him to be careful. Then his escape pod ejects. I assume his plan is to fly back to a more inhabited part of the planet, to get a ride there to wherever, banking on the fact that Death Watch won't think he'd retrace his steps?


    Spoiler: My thoughts
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    The whole "bethrothed" thing was pretty cliché. Especially since they telegraphied so much that Ahsoka was lying. Why was that necessary? We know she's lying, it just makes Bo-Katan look like an idiot. But I guess that that was the first thing Ahsoka thought of, gives us an idea of hos she thinks of Lux.

    Her conflict with Lux wasn't half bad since both sides have good points (trusting the Republic is the reason Mina died, DW is a bunch of bloodthirsty criminals) and bad points (Vizla was completely honest with Lux, How did Lux get in his head they were noble and honourable? Also any plan that start with your capture is a bad plan.). Still, a pity we don't get an actual separatist hero.

    Seems like Vizla really planned on integrating Lux into Death Watch. Which is weird since he isn't a Mandalorian and is a bit old to be raised into the culture. Guess they're low on numbers and he likes the kid. While the DW was gratuitously evil, it does make sense. Vizla felt his pride being attacked by someone his perceives as "lesser" and after being driven off Mandalore by satine and the Jedi and somehow losing Dooku's support, he's not going to take that well. Also don't think it's a coincidence the DW all look Nordic when the innocent villagers have an East-Asian aesthetic going on.

    Also, now that DW has dooku's location, I guess they will be going after him.

    But seriously though, how is Lux a senator? And is Ahsoka ever going to get into trouble for her actions at the beginning of the episode? I don't think even Anakin screwed up that badly. So far.


    Next up: Deception. Hmm... Either a tenous Jedi/DW alliance against Dooku or back to the Maul/Ventress/Dooku plot.

    *So she always had "boob armour", what was all that kerfuffle about?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-10-05 at 09:48 AM.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Formally, I think all it takes to be a Mandalorian is to wear the armor, speak the language, and (train to) fight the good fight. All three of those can be taught at any age.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Formally, I think all it takes to be a Mandalorian is to wear the armor, speak the language, and (train to) fight the good fight. All three of those can be taught at any age.
    "Mandalorian" is a whole cultural identity, with an outlook ("might makes right", especially in Death watch, for example) and traditions (the whole darksaber stuff, for example), unless you actually believe in and care about those things, are you a Mandalorian?

    Like, Lux already has a home planet, where he's apparently a whole-ass senator, would he leave it to adopt Mandalor[e/ian space] as his home? Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Formally, I think all it takes to be a Mandalorian is to wear the armor, speak the language, and (train to) fight the good fight. All three of those can be taught at any age.
    None of those are strictly required, IIRC. They never actually go into specific detail what exactly makes one a Mandalorian, but I always got the impression that it was just earnest commitment to being one.but Mandalorians are Mandalorians whether or not they have the armor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    None of those are strictly required, IIRC. They never actually go into specific detail what exactly makes one a Mandalorian, but I always got the impression that it was just earnest commitment to being one.but Mandalorians are Mandalorians whether or not they have the armor.
    Well it's a people, just like any other, so the only way to "truly" be one is to identify as one. Whether because of blood or because that specific culture is an important part of your identity (something that often come with blood, mind, since heredity is big part of identity).

    I just think Lux is a bit old for someone to expect him to fully embrace a foreign culture as his own.
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    The concept of Mandalorian identity is messy, since different people working in the EU at different times defined it in different ways (and Boba Fett's overly convoluted backstory kept messing things up too). As a result 'Mandalorian' means different things to different people in-universe and what makes a person a Mandalorian or allows someone else to become a Mandalorian is extremely malleable. Ambitious Mandalorian leaders, such as Pre Vizla, have often deliberately played loose with the membership requirements in order to enable mass recruitment. At the same time this malleability means that whenever the Mandalorians get their buts whooped (something that happens fairly regularly actually) they can always claim that the defeated 'were no true Mandalorians,' which enables their culture to endure what would otherwise be crippling blows to its warrior ethos.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The concept of Mandalorian identity is messy, since different people working in the EU at different times defined it in different ways (and Boba Fett's overly convoluted backstory kept messing things up too). As a result 'Mandalorian' means different things to different people in-universe and what makes a person a Mandalorian or allows someone else to become a Mandalorian is extremely malleable. Ambitious Mandalorian leaders, such as Pre Vizla, have often deliberately played loose with the membership requirements in order to enable mass recruitment. At the same time this malleability means that whenever the Mandalorians get their buts whooped (something that happens fairly regularly actually) they can always claim that the defeated 'were no true Mandalorians,' which enables their culture to endure what would otherwise be crippling blows to its warrior ethos.
    Most Mandalorians (in Legends, granted) had no issue acknowledging when they were defeated.
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    It's probably worth noting that even in Death Watch not all the Mandalorians held the same beliefs. Vizla and a chunk of his followers seemed relatively content that Maul take his place by right of strength, while Bo Katan and her splinter group considered Maul an 'outsider' and refused to follow him. Presumably this would also reflect how they would view Lux.

    Pre Vizla basically seemed to be a might makes right all the way type of person, nothing else really mattered, the strongest should be in charge and define what it is to be Death Watch, and only Death Watch are true Mandalorians. Basically making being Mandalorian more like being a pirate or a gang member. It's a justification for being a violent person more than a genuine respect for tradition. Lux can be adopted as a Mandalorian simply because Pre Vizla decides he wants to and is in charge.

    Bo Katan seemed to think of it as a matter of being raised in, or at least following, the old warrior creed of the Mandalorians before their civil war. An outsider who proves stronger than the current leader doesn't have the right to redefine the Mandalorians even if they won a formal challenge. She probably wouldn't have accepted Lux as a Mandalorian unless he did actually adopt a lot of their customs, because for her the traditions and customs are the part that matters.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    It's kind of funny, I feel like the ambiguity of what it means to be Mandalorian is often panned as bad writing, but in a lot of ways it mirrors how actual humans think about membership in real cultural groups - no one can agree, and many people pick a definition to fit their political needs. Maybe this is really inspired writing.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    I think the important thing regarding the way Mandalorian culture is portrayed by The Clone Wars, Rebels and the Mandalorian is that the Mandalorians had recently come out of a civil war after which most of their population became at least nominally pacifistic*. What it meant to be Mandalorian had been thrown into question when Satine and her faction redefined it by winning the war, and then redefined when Maul and Vizla undermined her rule and deposed her. Then of course they had a second civil war between Maul and Bo Kataan, and then got nearly exterminated by the Empire.

    They went through half a dozen or so rulers in the space of what? Two decades or so? Each with vastly different ideals, and all more or less the result of internal ideological divides. Much like the treatment of the Seperatists in TCW the Mandalorians are somewhat expanded on in terms of their varied ideals, with some being hypocrites or opportunists and some being steadfast in their principles be they good or bad.



    *Or at least content to live in a pacifist society rather than getting up in arms about the changes.
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    Season 4, Episode 15: Deception

    So we don't continue from last episode, then. Been a while since we've had a standalone episode.

    Spoiler: Recap
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    The republic has arrested a criminal who plotted to abduct Chancellor Palpatine. The guy's name is Morallo Eval. Geddit? He's a bad guy and his name is Morallo Eval, do you get it? Because morally he's evil, so his name is Morallo Eval. Do you get it? HIS NAME IS MORAL
    Anyway, you'd think having this guy in prison would solve the problem but nope, rumour has it his plan is already in motion. So the Jedi Council prepare their own plot. Cut to Anakin, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan on some docks on Coruscant headed for an emergency meeting of the Council. And a sniper on the rooftops start shooting at them. Kenobi sends Skywalker to flank the sniper and Tano to cut his escape to the streets while he charges him. They lose him and Obi-Wan slowly, deliberately walks out of cover. He gets shot near the shoulder and falls to the street almost ontop of Ahsoka. The shooter escapes thanks to a jetbike and a well-timed smoke bomb. Anakin gets down to ground level where his padawan is craddling his master's body with tears in her eyes and he starts impotently calling his name. Yup, he's dead, they're retconning the movies folk! RotS, ANH, ESB, RotJ? Never happened. What a bold new direction for this show.

    Cut to Kenobi's funeral at the Temple. A lot of Jedi are present plus Padmé, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and Satine who's failing not to cry. Anakin just stares intently in front of him with his head slightly leaned towards the ground so you know he means business. Ahsoka confides to Plo Koon that Anakin hasn't said a word since Kenobi's death, which given Satine came all the way from Mandalore has to be at least a couple of days. Bah, jus tgive him a couple weeks of leave and I'm sure he'll be back perfectly fine with absolutely no lasting consequences on his psyche whatsoever. I kid but, it's honestly a pretty somber and well-composed scene. Also I like the high-tech cremation process. Guess that for Qui-Gon they had to make do with what they had on Naboo. Meanwhile, the assassin gets to a seedy bar where a random woman looks at him and says out loud to no-one in particular "wow, I want to check his midi-chlorian count." Just no. The bartender is a sentient snake, which is nice, not enough non-athro species in this universe. He orders the best drink they have a loudly proclaim he's killed Obi-wan Kenobi which gets him cheers from everybody present. Jedi are really popular, aren't they?

    Back at the Temple, Yoda tells Windu he thinks they're headed to a dark path, but Mace still thinks this was the best course of action. They enter the infirmary where a still very alive Kenobi waits for them. Oh wow, I am shook. Yoda sasses him for no reason about his performance. He was wearing armour underneath his robe which is why he didn't die. (Ahsoka didn't feel it under the fabric?) And he took a vital suppressor to fake his death. Yoda thinks Anakin will eventually sense that something isn't right, but Obi-Wan insists his genuine reaction was essential to selling his "death". Bollocks. As they talk, a droid starts "shaving" Kenobi with a vaccul cleaner (ouch!) and bald!Obi-Wan shall forever haunt my nightmares. Windu briefs Obi-Wan on Eval: he works directly under Dooku (like pretty much every villain on this show) and rumour has it his plan will hatch in three revolutions (however long that is) at a festival on Naboo. Also the dude killed his mother when he was a child because he was bored. Obi-wan is taking the whole thing rather lightly but he thinks that Eval could lead them to Grievous and/or Dooku. So they are in hiding? And of course Palpatine refuses to not be part of the festival to not appear weak. Then they inject Kenobi's face with a serum that shifts his features into the sniper's, including the tatoos. While he groans in pain. Guys, ever heard of anesthesia? ****'s sake.

    At the cantina, the shooter, named Rako Hardeen is summoned by his employers, Kenobi and Windu who promptly mug him for his clothes (good thing they found a killer of Kenobi's size). Then they record his speech while he says they can't arrest him for a murder he didn't do. Kenobi retorts that he's legally dead, which was his intent. Guess the Galactic Republic doesn't have much in term of anti-entrapment laws. They put him to sleep and Kenobi swallows a vocal emulator so he sounds like him. Meanwhile, Yoda told Anakin and Ahsoka where to find Hardeen and although they're not clear on how he knows that they head to the cantina, complete with ominous music taken from the Imperial March. The found "Hardeen" pretending to be drunk out of his senses "Huh? A Jedi? I already killed a Jedi today, lemme sleep." Okay, that got a laugh out of me. Anakin roughs him up a little bit and tells him the only reason he doesn't kill him right there and then is out of respect for Obi-Wan. Then they deliver him to prison where Anakin volunteers to beat him up if he causes troubles.

    Cut to the next day where "Kenobi's killer" is the center of every conversation at breakfast(?) time. A Karkarodon inmate tries to scare him but Obi-wan just complains about the food and stabs him with a fork and threaten to eat him. He runs away. Somebody give Obi-Wan a chill pill, please. Morallo Eval introduces himself and asks why he killed that Jedi "I guess I was bored." Eval chuckles and tells him to try the sauce to make the food a bit more palatable. Obi-Wan is later taken to his cell, or actually Eval's who bribed the guards to have a private conversation. He offers him bigger game than Jedi, involving the Chancellor. And that's the point where the cell's other inmate butts in: Cad Bane. If they're taking a random goon along, he'll want double the pay. Bane doesn't respect him because he killed a Jedi from a distance rather than face to face. And because Kenobi talked back to him, he'll ask for triple his usual rate. Is just going to find excuses to ask for more and more money all the time, or what? "That ship is lame, quadruple my rates." Eval sends "Hardeen" away and tells him to forget what he heard.

    Cut to later, Kenobi finds a communicator hidden in a exercise machine and calls the Jedi (he calls himself "Ben" how cute.) He explains that Bane stopped him from learning the plan and is probably there to spring Eval out. "Foolish we were, to believe Bane's capture was without purpose" I mean, people don't usually get captured intentionally. Also, when did that happen? Kenobi decides to tag along with their escape. He also says he enjoys playing the villain. In time, he'll discover that fork-stabbing is a pathway to the Dark Side of the Force. Or to lobbing rude people's arms off, either or. Next meal time, "Hardeen" is accosted by none other than Boba Fett who insists he owes him for stealing a bounty and doesn't appreciate him not remembering it. Fett exchanges a glance with Bane and tackles Kenobi to a table. clones intervene to break up the fight, but Bossk knocks them out and tell Hardeen that a problem with Boba is a problem with him. The fight devolves into a full-blown riot. Especially when the prisoners get hold of some guards' blasters and start stunning them. Bane tells Eval he paid off the kid to create a diversion and they leave through the door some more clones just got in, with Kenobi in tow. The clones start using lethal rounds, for some reason.

    Bane doesn't want Hardeen to tag along, but Morallo lets him. Bane leads them to the morgue, saying that it isn't the first time he's escaped this place. However the code to get in has changed. Kenobi says he can rewire it if they buy him some time. Once they're not looking, he uses the Force to open it. Somehow. Bane explains that corpses are sent to the crematorium by tubes and they can escape from there. They slip into coffins (Kenobi has to share with a genuine corpse. Delightful.) that the attendants send away, not noticing they were empty, moments ago. The workers of the crematorium, also clones, notice that the coffins from the prison are showing vital signs and they decide to open them to see what's up. We joke about the droids being mindless, but that's not the GRA's greatest moment, right there. The escapees kill the workers, although, when Obi-wan has one of them held at gun point he freezes, which allows him to sound the alarm. Bane kills him. And "Hardeen" claims his blaster jammed. They get past some more guard and steal a police speeder. Which they then use to steal some random quarren's ship. Bane punches out "Hardeen" for hesitating during the escape and doesn't seem impressed by him telling they wouldn't have made it without him. Still Eval, thinks he's cut out for his plan.


    Spoiler: My thoughts
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    That plan is duuuuuuuumb. Either Eval's plan doesn't require him leaving prison, in which case he won't tell some random inmate anything, or it does, in which case, how likely is he to incorporate a random guy he's never met into it just because he's impressed it just days before the big day. And making Anakin, Ahsoka, Padmé and Satine believe he's dead is just needlessly cruel. Like the "his reaction needed to be genuine" reason is never really convincing, but you're aiming to convince a guy who has never and most likely will never meet any (heh, I first typed "ani") of these people!

    Apart from that, the episode is rather good and getting into the darker sides of the Order, as well as continuing the whole "Anakin morphing into Vader" plotline which we had no development on for a good while. Also the fact that the prison is staffed by military clone personnel is probably a hint at the greater authoritarian shift of the Republic. I'm also surprised Eval managed to buy some favours from the clones. Are they even allowed to own money?

    So Dooku is sponsoring a plot to kidnap Palpatine. I can see three possible reasons for that: 1) The Sith have decided they're ready to end the war and the battle of Coruscant is replacement of this plot when it fails. 2) Eval is meant to fail and this is just keeping up with the greater "Civil War" facade.
    3) Tyranus is going off-script because of Sidious's order to kill Ventress and trying to kill his master. In which case, I guess he'd be fully committing to the Separatist cause?


    Next up: Friends and enemies.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-10-12 at 08:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    As far as Anakin and the others go, its not a secret if you go and tell everybody close to Obi-wan that its a fake. The fewer people who know the secret, the fewer ways it has to get out.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Guess the Galactic Republic doesn't have much in term of anti-entrapment laws.
    Not entrapment.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As far as Anakin and the others go, its not a secret if you go and tell everybody close to Obi-wan that its a fake. The fewer people who know the secret, the fewer ways it has to get out.
    Like, I get that, but it's still excessive. The guy they are trying to fool is in prison, and this won't matter in a few days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not entrapment.
    *shrugs* Not a lawyer.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    *shrugs* Not a lawyer.
    Sorry, that's one of those things that bugs me - a surprisingly pervasive and common misunderstanding of entrapment. Entrapment specifically requires the person committing the crime to not commit the crime without undue influence. If I walk outside and say, "oh man, what a lovely day to be shirtless with a target painted on my chest! Fyr, have this gun for no reason!" and you take the gun and shoot me, that's not entrapment because there was no undue influence on you to commit the crime. You simply had an opportunity to commit a crime and took it. If I said "shoot me or my friend will burn your house down", then that is entrapment because you would (hopefully) not have normally shot me if not for the undue influence, even with the target on my chest and me handing you a gun.

    Tl;dr - asking "hey, you wanna rob a bank?" is not entrapment.
    Saying, "rob this bank or go to prison" is entrapment.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sorry, that's one of those things that bugs me - a surprisingly pervasive and common misunderstanding of entrapment. Entrapment specifically requires the person committing the crime to not commit the crime without undue influence. If I walk outside and say, "oh man, what a lovely day to be shirtless with a target painted on my chest! Fyr, have this gun for no reason!" and you take the gun and shoot me, that's not entrapment because there was no undue influence on you to commit the crime. You simply had an opportunity to commit a crime and took it. If I said "shoot me or my friend will burn your house down", then that is entrapment because you would (hopefully) not have normally shot me if not for the undue influence, even with the target on my chest and me handing you a gun.

    Tl;dr - asking "hey, you wanna rob a bank?" is not entrapment.
    Saying, "rob this bank or go to prison" is entrapment.
    Still, I might get the terminology wrong, but I get the feeling that law enforcement charging a man for a murder they hired him to commit isn't a thing that should happen.

    Also, good thing Hardeen didn't shoot Kenobi's exposed head.

    Also, also, Bane doesn't wear the metal plates with assorted tubes he had on his cheeks in this one. I kind of assumed he needed those. Were they just a fashion statement?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-10-12 at 11:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Sure is lucky everyone forgets that apprentices can sense when their master dies, hmm?

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also, also, Bane doesn't wear the metal plates with assorted tubes he had on his cheeks in this one. I kind of assumed he needed those. Were they just a fashion statement?
    Presumably they do something related to the other gizmos he favours using, but I don't think it's ever explained. Maybe part of a respirator/rebreather unit he rarely uses.

    PRE-EDIT: Apparently they're supposed to help resist Force Chokes. No idea how they would do that since they don't actually enter his airways in any way I can see.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Still, I might get the terminology wrong, but I get the feeling that law enforcement charging a man for a murder they hired him to commit isn't a thing that should happen.

    Also, good thing Hardeen didn't shoot Kenobi's exposed head.

    Also, also, Bane doesn't wear the metal plates with assorted tubes he had on his cheeks in this one. I kind of assumed he needed those. Were they just a fashion statement?
    If they hired him, then that's pretty much his fault. He decided to be a hired killer. Now, charging him for a murder when the victim is alive is trash, but a cop saying "hey, guy who'll do an illegal thing anyway, wanna do it with me and thus implicate yourself?" is fine.

    Also, professional shooters are trained to aim for center mass. Much easier to hit. Headshots are typically jot desirable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If they hired him, then that's pretty much his fault. He decided to be a hired killer. Now, charging him for a murder when the victim is alive is trash, but a cop saying "hey, guy who'll do an illegal thing anyway, wanna do it with me and thus implicate yourself?" is fine.
    To a certain extent I would say he crossed the relevant boxes to be morally and ethically considered a murderer, given that he shot someone with intent to kill them for money and thought he had succeeded. Legally is another matter, but we don't actually know what Republic law is in regards to trying to kill someone, they might not distinguish between attempted homicide and actual homicide.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    To a certain extent I would say he crossed the relevant boxes to be morally and ethically considered a murderer, given that he shot someone with intent to kill them for money and thought he had succeeded. Legally is another matter, but we don't actually know what Republic law is in regards to trying to kill someone, they might not distinguish between attempted homicide and actual homicide.
    "Inchoate" is a relevant word here! Basically, inchoate crimes means "its a crime even it fails". The Republic may simply lump inchoate crimes together with fully completed crimes. But I'm pretty sure this is simply bad writing. It bring TCW and all.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-12 at 04:01 PM.
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