Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Sapphire Guard]

It's fair enough that they don't want to get bogged down in legal argument. But 'didn't succeed in killing my target' doesn't mean he gets to walk, doesn't require any weird legalities.

[Fyraltari]

PRE-EDIT: Apparently they're supposed to help resist Force Chokes. No idea how they would do that since they don't actually enter his airways in any way I can see.

That makes no sense. Then again, esthetics over functionality is nothing new to Star Wars design.

Also, professional shooters are trained to aim for center mass. Much easier to hit. Headshots are typically jot desirable.

I can think of a very well-known assasination where the murderer shot his victim through the head despite being far away. I'm not saying this is a plot-hole, Obi-Wan has do e and will do riskier things in his life but it was a pretty big gamble on their part. Just imagine Anakins 's reaction to learning that the man who murdered (actually murdered in this scenario) his beloved master was hired to do so by Windu and Yoda.

[Grim Portent]

That makes no sense. Then again, esthetics over functionality is nothing new to Star Wars design.

I think it's a legacy of the sometimes janky props of the original Star Wars and other sci fi/space fantasy. An easy way to make something or someone look spacey is to add ribbed cables to them, even when it doesn't make sense to do so, and then come up with a half arsed explanation for what the cables are later.

[Peelee]

I can think of a very well-known assasination where the murderer shot his victim through the head despite being far away.

And for every headshot, there are hundreds of chest shots. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it shouldn't be the expectation.

[Kornaki]

Interestingly, that very famous assassin tried to kill Edwin Walker several months earlier, and missed. I think Wayne Gretzky said you don't hear about 100% of the shots they don't make, or something like that.

Anyway, obi wan is a Jedi. If he can block a laser shot with a sword, he can probably position his head so it isn't the part that gets hit.

[Keltest]

Interestingly, that very famous assassin tried to kill Edwin Walker several months earlier, and missed. I think Wayne Gretzky said you don't hear about 100% of the shots they don't make, or something like that.

Anyway, obi wan is a Jedi. If he can block a laser shot with a sword, he can probably position his head so it isn't the part that gets hit.

Or they could just hire a professional who shoots center mass.

[Mechalich]

For the specific purpose of assassination/sniping, under certain circumstances the head is a preferable target to the center of mass, such as when the target is likely to be wearing body armor but not wearing a helmet, ex. a public figure giving a speech. Since Jedi, notably including Obi-Wan, do wear armor sometimes but almost never wear helmets, attempting to snipe them in the head makes sense.

[Fyraltari]

Season 4, Episode 16: Friends and Ennemies

Doesn't "Friends and Foes" just plainly sound better? Anyway,

Spoiler: Recap

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Kenobi, Bane and Eval are on the run, near Nal Hutta. Kenobi is purposefully crashing their ship in a swamp in order to hide their tracks. I mean, it's unlikely the theft of that ship was already connected to the prison's break-out. You didn't just steal the first ship you came across, did you? Also, why isn't Bane the one making this decision, did he not plan the get away any further than "out of the prison"? Kenobi knows a nearby bazaar they can buy a new ship in (buy, not steal, so the authorities won't bother them). But first Bane wants to change out of their prison uniform, also he's worried about a bounty being put on their heads. Ironic, isn't it?

He leads them to Pablos' Pawn Shop (a Rodian called Pablo? I don't recall any non-human having regular human names in Star Wars before) where they can find everything they need and more. Everybody, Eval included, gets a new armor and some gadgets. Bane even finds a hat to his liking (after discarding Pr. Jones' fedora. Pfft, barbarian). However, Bane finds the choice of weapons lousy. When Pablo points out they are obviously on the run, the Duro stabs him in the throat with a toothpick and tell him to zip it. Kenobi tries to pay but Pablo's Twi'lek assistant (girlfriend?) swats the money out of his hand.

Kenobi chews out the bounty hunter for his behaviour, telling him the trader is probably calling the Hutts right now to tell on them. Bane isn't worried since everybody around there is an outlaw, but still, it'd be better to split: "Hardeen" finds a ship while the other two look for weapons. Bane tells Eval he plans on throwing "Hardeen" to the Hutts and escaping without him as both a business and personal matter. Kenobi buys a ship from a Bith and hides a tracking beacon on it, just before his "friends" arrive. Eval is the one paying which makes me wonder, where did they get any money? Bane tells "Hardeen" they dodn't get him a weapon, because he's not coming along (so he doesn't have to split the reward) and Eval washes his hands of that matter (What? You're the boss, you should be the one making these decisions!). Just at this moment, a couple Gamorrean guards, Pablo and his twi'lek girlfriends arrive, pointing at them. Bane doses Harkeen with some green smoke and shoves him to the authorities.

Kenobi comes to in a torture dungeon being interrogated about his partners. He immediately tells them about the tracking device. Cut to the other two, still in Nal Hutta's atmosphere. Eval phones Dooku to tell him he's been delayed but will be back in time for the the plan to go on (the Count is getting impatient), Bane just wants to know when he's getting payed and eval tells him he need to be on Serenno first. Then they get shot at by Hutt fighters. Bane immediately figures out what's happened, but their engines are too damaged for them to leave the planet. However, Kenobi's guard reneges on their deal and refuses to let him go. The Jedi uses the Force to loosen his restraints, steal the guy's weapon and knock him out. He very easily escapes and calls the Council to have them remove the bounty on their heads. Also, to avoid any further complications, he tells them not to try to contact him or send any help regardless of any reports they receive. Oh, and, can they lend him fifty bucks? He's gotta buy a new ship.

Cut to Palpatine's office who wants to know why the bounty on the heads of the people planning to kidnap him are being removed. Windu simply say that them being free to move can help them uncover the whole plot. Palpatine accepts this and hangs up. Turns out Skywalker was listening to the conversation with him, and he takes the idea of not pursuing Obi-Wan's murderer about as calmly as you'd expect. Palpatine says that the Council possibly don't trust him to rein in his feelings. he tells him his feelings are what makes him special, so he shouldn't deny him and he trusts him to stop the plot against him. Also he knows the fugitives were headed to Nal Hutta. "Thank you, Chancellor. You won't regret this. -No, I won't."

Bane and Eval walk back into whatever that town they were in is called (I guess the news that the bounty was cancelled travelled very fast) and find "Hardeen" waiting fro them at a bar. Bane wants to beat the crap out of him but Eval hasn't got time for these shenanigans any more. "Hardeen" says he's got a ship ready for them but he will only let them onboard if he's made a full partner to their plan. Morallo Eval accepts. Cad wants to know how he did this, Kenobi says the Hutt owed him a favour (not a bad lie, honestly) and says him and bane are square now. They leave while the bartender complains about them not paying for the mess they've made. They get into his ship (still bickering about the reward) and leave just as Anakin and Ahsoka land. The two Jedi go to the saloon the fugitives just left. Is that Sy Snootles, drunk, telling two bikini-clad Twi'lek girls how much she loves them? Okay, moving on. Anakin Force-shoves two gamorreans out of their way and start interrogating the owner (and Ithorian with a voice-box so he can speak basic). When he gets the slightest bit uncooperative, Skywalker Force-chokes him and he tells them he doesn't know where the fugitives are but he does know they've just bought a ship.

Cut to Coruscant, Rex, who's apparently been tasked with guarding Palpatine (an excuse for him and Anakin to hang out?), gets a call from Windu who Skywalker has been ghosting. Palpatine tells the Jedi he sent Anakin to Nal Hutta despit ethe Council's plan because Eval seems to be several steps ahead of them. He also tells him to have more faith in Skywalker and they leave. Windu thinks he can't warn Obi-Wan without blowing his cover, but Yoda is worried about Anakin killing Obi-Wan (about two decades too ealy for that) or the reverse so he decides to warn them both, the truth is overdue anyway. I agree, this is wayyyyy to let to tell Anakin. Meanwhile, at the spaceship dealership (heh), the seller expalins to Anakin that he only sells ships with enough fuel to reach a gas-station on Orandia, which is owned by his brother. 1) That's a good hustle, 2) Are we retconning Nar Shaada? That has got to be much closer than wherever "Orandia" is 3) Look at that a lack of fuel being important in SW, my, I would never. 4) I never tire of the SW thing where tow people speak different languages and one of them as to repeat everything they're told so the audience can follow the conversation. Also Ahsoka is worried they'll steal yet another ship on Orandia.

On Oradia, eval's patience is being stretched thin but this new delay, and by Bane complaining about him paying for the fuel when he still hasn't been payed (Kenobi seems to find that very funny). The Jedi arrive just as they take off, and Ahsoka spots Cad Bane's distinctive hat. Anakin rams them repeatedly to stop them from going into space and then jumps on the criminals' ship. "Hardeen" volunteers to take care of him, but Bane reeeeaaaally wants to kill a Jedi today. The fight for a while (Anakin manages to destroy one of Bane's ankle-rockets but he manages with only one). Kneobi deliberately crashes both ships to the ground to break off their fight (I think). Obi-Wan leaves the ship to check on Anakin who immediately tackles him and tells him he's going to pay for his own murder. He's only saved by Bane's intervention who is still fixated on the idea of killing Anakin. Kenobi ends up wrestling with Skywalker on the ground and whispers in his ear, somehow using his actual voice despite the device in his throat, not to follow him. Meh, should have told him to stop Panakin. Anakin passes out from the strangulation, but Ahsoka shows up beofre Bane can finish him off. Then Eval shows up, saying that the ship is still operationnal and he wants to leave immediately. Bane offers Ahsoka to dance another time and they leave.

Anakin wakes up as the fugitive take off and he muses that he did sense a connection. He tells Ahsoka that Obi-Wan is still alive and although neither of them understand it, they'll get to the bottom of this.

Spoiler: My thoughts

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that episode wasn't ahlf bad, but I think it dragged on a bit. I think Anakin hunting down Obi-Wan should have had more focus and "Hardeen" and Bane squabbling less.
I think Bane comes off as much less professional than before in this: not really having a plan of escape, pointlessly antagonizing Pablo and trying to get rid of "Hardeen" even though he's already negotiated a bigger pay is he tags along.
This episode confirms that Sidious is in on the abducting plan (I think, Dooku was the one who told him they were on Nal Hutta) but at the same time he seems willing to ditch it if that helps Anakin sliding further towards the Dark Side.
Speaking of which I am glad we are getting more "Anakin turns into Vader" stuff because that was really missing from that season. That and an update on the Maul plot.

In any case, I am curious to see where this story goes.

Next up: The Box.

[Keltest]

As far as the fuel thing goes, Nar Shaada is a sufficiently densely populated hive of scum and villainy that people looking to get a fast track out of the system almost certainly dont want to stop there to refuel.

Or, frankly, for any other reason. Its kind of a crappy place, in a wonderfully different way from Nal Hutta.

Also, totally agreed about Bane's professionalism. Bounty Hunters in general in TCW are pretty bad about that. Seeing the guild having actual rules in The Mandalorian is a nice change.

[Mechalich]

Also, totally agreed about Bane's professionalism. Bounty Hunters in general in TCW are pretty bad about that. Seeing the guild having actual rules in The Mandalorian is a nice change.

That may be a timeline thing to some degree. Bounty hunting prior to the Clone Wars mostly happened in Hutt Space and other non-Republic territories, and the Hutts have a very well, Hutt, concept of professionalism, so the bounty hunters of this period were particularly wild because they lived in a world of constant betrayal. After the Empire was established bounty hunting slowly crept inward (literally, in the sense of moving closer to the center of the galaxy) into more civilized and urbanized territories because Palpatine felt a need for bounty hunters as a resource for various reasons - such as not being able to trust his own official subordinates as far as he could Force Throw them - and their interactions with the Imperial bureaucracy would impose a layer of forced professionalism upon them. For instance, the scene in ESB when the Imperial officers denigrate the best bounty hunters in the galaxy to their faces indicates how hair trigger types would struggle to survive in this system.

[Peelee]

Cut to Coruscant, Rex, who's apparently been tasked with guarding Palpatine (an excuse for him and Anakin to hang out?)

No it's a little. Simpler than that. Despite the movies and show claiming there are millions of clones (in a galaxy with trillions of planets, the war is effectively two factions with pea shooters), There's really only like 20, so odds are pretty good that Rex or Cody or any of the ones whose names we know will be more or less everywhere.

[Fyraltari]

No it's a little. Simpler than that. Despite the movies and show claiming there are millions of clones (in a galaxy with trillions of planets, the war is effectively two factions with pea shooters), There's really only like 20, so odds are pretty good that Rex or Cody or any of the ones whose names we know will be more or less everywhere.

I mean, true, but Senate Guards exist.

[Keltest]

I mean, true, but Senate Guards exist.

Eh, its not that implausible, or even particularly odd. They know of a kidnapping attempt which means extra security. Palpatine and Anakin are friends, of a sort, so its only natural that Anakin is in the area even if they just have him on standby. The 501st are Anakin's troops.

[Fyraltari]

Bounty Hunters in general in TCW are pretty bad about that. Seeing the guild having actual rules in The Mandalorian is a nice change.

Well, you know what they say: "bounty hunting is complicated profession."

[Keltest]

Well, you know what they say: "bounty hunting is complicated profession."

Yeah. Apparently this is because they all go out deliberately making their jobs harder than they need to be by needlessly antagonizing everybody they need to work with.

[Peelee]

Yeah. Apparently this is because they all go out deliberately making their jobs harder than they need to be by needlessly antagonizing everybody they need to work with.

I would imagine that the venn diagram of "people who become bounty hunters in the Star Wars universe" and "people who treat other people well" is a circle. With another circle like, way over there.

[Fyraltari]

I would imagine that the venn diagram of "people who become bounty hunters in the Star Wars universe" and "people who treat other people well" is a circle. With another circle like, way over there.

Spoiler: Din Djarin be like

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[Peelee]

Spoiler: Din Djarin be like

Show

Eh, he's mostly indifferent to strangers.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, he's mostly indifferent to strangers.

A) that's lowering the bar a lot.
B)Is he? He saved the Child when that made his life considerably harder, spared Pershing specifically because he protected the Child, protected the villagerd when he didn't have to (if memory serves), is on speaking terms with the Tusken when literally everybody else shoot them on sight, chose to help Vanth fight the Krayt dragon for the armour when it'd have been easier to kill Vanth for it, never reneges a deal and is always respectful (droidism aside) unless provoked.

Sounds like someone who treats others well to me.

[Peelee]

A) that's lowering the bar a lot.
B)Is he? He saved the Child when that made his life considerably harder, spared Pershing specifically because he protected the Child, protected the villagerd when he didn't have to (if memory serves), is on speaking terms with the Tusken when literally everybody else shoot them on sight, chose to help Vanth fight the Krayt dragon for the armour when it'd have been easier to kill Vanth for it, never reneges a deal and is always respectful (droidism aside) unless provoked.

Sounds like someone who treats others well to me.

The Child is different. He has qualms about children, which is understandable given his Mandalorian upbringing. Pershing tried to save the child, the Tuskens controlled the land he needed to negotiate crossing, came to a deal with Vanth, etc etc. He has no problem dealing fairly.

He's openly disrespectful of the gunslinger until they come to a deal, is fairly dismissive of the ferryman and the driver in the pilot, is dismissive of the frog lady, tells the townsfolk who want to hire him that jt sucks to be them until he finds out they have something he wants, etc etc.

Hes not openly antagonistic to every given person, sure, but he sure as hell doesn't treat most of them with respect. They're all transactional. Even the Tuskens. But i never said "openly antagonistic".

[Grim Portent]

I mean, true, but Senate Guards exist.

There's a few possible reasons to use clones instead.

Obviously Palpatine could have requested the 501st as a pretence to influence Anakin, indeed the whole scheme is fundamentally about manipulation anyway.

Anakin could have been assigned to protect the Chancellor by the Jedi Council, after all they use Anakin as a sort of spy because they think Palpatine trusts him. Anakin would then have requested elements of the 501st be involved because he trusts them more than the senate guards.

Propaganda. Palpatine used clones as the 'bad guys' serving as the hand of the Jedi for the purposes of optics. Having the army commanded by the Jedi involved in civilian security matters makes it easy to frame the Jedi as overreaching and tyrannical. The Coruscant Guard are a good example, used as a way to suppress dissidents by Palpatine, but clones were heavily associated with the Jedi and the war by the media that Palpatine controlled.

Palpatine was phasing out the Republic's security organisations in favour of his own guards, such as the Red Guard. Sidelining the Senate Guard in matters like this helps make them look ineffective to a casual glance, and as such justifies replacing them with a group with no other loyalties and a more militaristic bent.

[Mechalich]

Palpatine was phasing out the Republic's security organisations in favour of his own guards, such as the Red Guard. Sidelining the Senate Guard in matters like this helps make them look ineffective to a casual glance, and as such justifies replacing them with a group with no other loyalties and a more militaristic bent.

It's probably this one. TCW includes a number of scenes involving the failure and treachery of the Senate Guard, most of which has already occurred by this point in the timeline. The idea that Palpatine would have shifted at least some of their security responsibilities to the clones by this time is logical. Using Rex, specifically, is the hard sell. Clone security on Coruscant was the responsibility of the Coruscant Guard, a specialized Shock Trooper unit, and Rex is very much not in their command chain (multiple commanders from the unit appear in TCW).

I think Rex's presence is explained in that Anakin is supposed to be guarding Palpatine right now and not galivanting across the galaxy in pursuit of a rogue bounty hunter, and he left Rex behind to serve as a secure communications link to Palps that the Jedi Council doesn't control (because the clones have a separate comm network the Council isn't privy too, something we know from Order 66).

[Sapphire Guard]

I suspect the main reason is just that they didn't want to make a new model.

[Doug Lampert]

The execution squad is lead by Dogma and includes Top. I don't think it's policy in any army to have people be executed by their own squadmates, but story got to story.

Just a quick note on this. Roman decimation involved the rest of the squad beating to death the man chosen to be killed, it was part of the punishment that they not only killed a tenth of the unit, but they made the rest of the unit be the ones to do it.

But that's because it was very specifically a punishment for the entire unit.

[Fyraltari]

Just a quick note on this. Roman decimation involved the rest of the squad beating to death the man chosen to be killed, it was part of the punishment that they not only killed a tenth of the unit, but they made the rest of the unit be the ones to do it.

But that's because it was very specifically a punishment for the entire unit.

It was also extremely rare.

[Doug Lampert]

It was also extremely rare.

Well, yeah, you're executing a large number of randomly chosen citizens of the legionary social class (pre-Marian reforms) in a republic where the legionary infantry class is the most important single block of votes. You're not going to do that casually, as it probably makes it hard to get reelected unless most people agree that it was justified.

There were other offences that got the Fustuarium (being beaten to death by your fellow soldiers), but the other cases were mostly offenses AGAINST your fellow soldiers (sentries abandoning their post or theft from others in camp).

[Fyraltari]

Well, yeah, you're executing a large number of randomly chosen citizens of the legionary social class (pre-Marian reforms) in a republic where the legionary infantry class is the most important single block of votes. You're not going to do that casually, as it probably makes it hard to get reelected unless most people agree that it was justified.

And also: you lose one tenth of your fighting force and the remanining nine tenth now both are severely demoralized and hate your guts.
Not a recipe for success.

[pendell]

And also: you lose one tenth of your fighting force and the remanining nine tenth now both are severely demoralized and hate your guts.
Not a recipe for success.

The assumption is that if you're executing this punishment, the fighting force is already ineffective and so drastic measures are needed to put the heart back into them. It's something you do when the formation is already so panicky people are deserting in large numbers, to the point dissolution of the entire formation is on the table if something is not done.

* Self -scrubbed example*

ETA: More armies than the Romans had done this. I had a more recent example but have scrubbed it out of respect for the forum rules. As they say, "if in doubt, don't".

The point of the exercise is clear. The soldiers have more to fear from running than they have to fear from the enemy, and they had best police each other because if someone runs, the punishment will fall on those who stayed behind and did not stop him.

Did it *work*?

The Romans were not noted for their cowardice in battle, so perhaps it did , to some extent. But then again, other militaries have also developed a reputation for courage WITHOUT murdering their own soldiers. At least, not randomly. The death penalty is still on the books for a whole host of crimes such as desertion during wartime etc. But there's a difference between executing a specific person for a crime they specifically and provably committed, versus killing a random soldier to encourage the others.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

Given the nature of the 501st (ie very close and brotherly) and the circumstances of the battle theyre in, finding men to execute them who ARENT at least loosely friends with them would have been extremely difficult. Doubly so because the only other available unit is Obi-wan Kenobi's, and he obviously cant be involved with Krell's scheme or he'll figure out Krell's treachery.

[Fyraltari]

I'm just writing this to tell you that, although I have watched the next episode, I have been too busy with starting the new job, family gatherings, meeting some old friends and helping my parents move 20-odd years worth of stuff to the new house to make the time to write a review, and I am not sure, I'll be able to find it in the next couple of weeks.

Sorry about that.