Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Fyraltari]

Two points:

First, character evolution does not necessitate an upward direction.

No-one said it did.

Second, sometimes a story is about a character who changes (or has changed), and sometimes a story is about a world that is changing (or has changed).

"It tends to happen", does not mean "it always happen".

I apologize if I miscommunicated, but we don't seem to actually be in disagreement.

[Peelee]

No-one said it did.



"It tends to happen", does not mean "it always happen".

I apologize if I miscommunicated, but we don't seem to actually be in disagreement.

I'm aware on all counts, I was just trying to say that your answer was effectively "sometimes that happens". Which is kind of true of most things, is all.

[Grim Portent]

Criminals post bounties also. Boba Fett in the original trilogy scored a bounty from the Empire for Han, then a second one from Jabba for the same target.

Isn't Jabba technically a member of an autocratic/oligarchic government? He's a wanted criminal outside of Hutt space, but that doesn't make him stop being the ruler of Tatooine (and a few other planets in Hutt Space as well I imagine.) Sort of like Dooku, head of state of the CIS, but a wanted criminal in the Republic.


As for bounty hunter's in general, it seems to be a term used for a range of different professions, ranging from legally sanctioned warrant bearing gunslingers who work only slightly outside the conventions of Republic/Empire law, to criminals who hunt other criminals for money, to professional villains who choose to primarily or even exclusively work with what could be described as the 'bad guys' of Star Wars. Looking at you Cad Bane for that last one.

There's probably no real centralised agency directing them or handing out bounties galaxy wide, so any given bounty might proliferate slowly through the bounty hunting communities, or be competed on by different handler agencies for exlclusive rights to distribute and take a cut on the bounty, and some of the groups who handle them will keep the information about high value targets limited to their trusted bounty hunters*. It's possible Boba and his crew aren't important enough yet to have anyone offering them the bounties on high profile targets like Ventress, or that whoever gives them their bounties just legitimately hasn't gotten Ventress's bounty yet.


*As in someone who's shown themselves to be skilled, pays their membership fees or the agency's cut of the bounty on time, doesn't two time with other agencies, doesn't go independent and follows whatever rules the agency sets down.

[Fyraltari]

There's probably no real centralised agency directing them or handing out bounties galaxy wide

The Bounty Hunters' Guild is a recurring world-building element.

[Keltest]

Isn't Jabba technically a member of an autocratic/oligarchic government? He's a wanted criminal outside of Hutt space, but that doesn't make him stop being the ruler of Tatooine (and a few other planets in Hutt Space as well I imagine.) Sort of like Dooku, head of state of the CIS, but a wanted criminal in the Republic.


As for bounty hunter's in general, it seems to be a term used for a range of different professions, ranging from legally sanctioned warrant bearing gunslingers who work only slightly outside the conventions of Republic/Empire law, to criminals who hunt other criminals for money, to professional villains who choose to primarily or even exclusively work with what could be described as the 'bad guys' of Star Wars. Looking at you Cad Bane for that last one.

There's probably no real centralised agency directing them or handing out bounties galaxy wide, so any given bounty might proliferate slowly through the bounty hunting communities, or be competed on by different handler agencies for exlclusive rights to distribute and take a cut on the bounty, and some of the groups who handle them will keep the information about high value targets limited to their trusted bounty hunters*. It's possible Boba and his crew aren't important enough yet to have anyone offering them the bounties on high profile targets like Ventress, or that whoever gives them their bounties just legitimately hasn't gotten Ventress's bounty yet.


*As in someone who's shown themselves to be skilled, pays their membership fees or the agency's cut of the bounty on time, doesn't two time with other agencies, doesn't go independent and follows whatever rules the agency sets down.

Formally i dont know that the Hutts rule any planet besides Nal Hutta. Jabba is considered a crimelord, not the head of a rogue state, by most of the people who talk about the matter in Legends, so my inclination is to say that a lot of his power on Tattoine is informal.

[Grim Portent]

The Bounty Hunters' Guild is a recurring world-building element.

Forgot that wasn't a term for a bunch of smaller agencies in Star Wars.

I'm not sure the Guild will have all contracts available everywhere at the time. Communication in Star Wars is... well spotty at best. Several inhabited worlds show up that seem to have basically no connection to the outside galaxy except what little news they hear from passing ships. The guild's agents on Tatooine could genuinely not have the information that Dooku or the Republic, is offering a bounty on Ventress and/or their information on what Ventress looks like could be bad, not like the holograms in universe tend to be very good.

Didn't the Mandalorian also imply that some bounties get offered to specific hunters before being made public? I could swear I remember an offer of exclusivity being made to Mando at some point, if I am remembering correctly then a bounty like Ventress's would probably not be offered to someone like Boba as he was in the CW.

Formally i dont know that the Hutts rule any planet besides Nal Hutta. Jabba is considered a crimelord, not the head of a rogue state, by most of the people who talk about the matter in Legends, so my inclination is to say that a lot of his power on Tattoine is informal.

I'm under the impression that the entire Hutt civilisation styles itself as a criminal organisation despite having a claim to being a kingdom, oligarchy or republic (weird as that concept may be to apply to them). The crimelords, such as Jabba, are the sole constituents of the council that rules their homeworld and all other worlds in Hutt Space, rather than just dealing with their criminal matters and negotiations regarding areas where their criminal affairs overlap. The cartels are in theory responsible for whatever passes for a civilian government on their worlds, though I imagine they're negligent towards anything they don't see as a business investment.

They are a government, a laissez-faire government steeped in corruption and based on a parody of real life mafia's, but they still meet all the basic criteria I can think of for a government.

[Mechalich]

I'm under the impression that the entire Hutt civilisation styles itself as a criminal organisation despite having a claim to being a kingdom, oligarchy or republic (weird as that concept may be to apply to them). The crimelords, such as Jabba, are the sole constituents of the council that rules their homeworld and all other worlds in Hutt Space, rather than just dealing with their criminal matters and negotiations regarding areas where their criminal affairs overlap. The cartels are in theory responsible for whatever passes for a civilian government on their worlds, though I imagine they're negligent towards anything they don't see as a business investment.

They are a government, a laissez-faire government steeped in corruption and based on a parody of real life mafia's, but they still meet all the basic criteria I can think of for a government.

Hutt civilization is weird, by human standards, which is actually good, because Hutts are invertebrates with a 1000-year lifespan. They should be weird. Notably the Hutts just don't really care about being de facto versus de jure rulers of their domains (this is partly because they have disdain for human titles. Jabba has a long list of distinctions appended to his name, but 'Jabba the Hutt' is considered a superior form of address to all of them, because obviously no mere human elevation could possibly measure up to simply being a Hutt). For example, under the Empire Palpatine appointed a Moff of Teth who nominally had jurisdiction over the entirety of Hutt Space including Nal Hutta. The Hutts shrugged, sent the man some nice messages, moved some bribe money around, and moved on. Another way of looking at this is that Hutts really recognize any distinction between plutocracy and kleptocracy because as far as their concerned the purpose of the state - which is comprised of insignificant non-Hutt masses anyway - is their personal enrichment regardless.

In a general sense non-Hutt-led governments seem to like it when the Hutts pretend they aren't actually in charge of things. As lying to non-Hutts about the state of affairs is perfectly acceptable to the Hutt mindset - they feel not the slightest shame or guilt about this - and since doing so prevents annoying events like wars that imperil both profits and Hutt lives, they're only too happy to pretend.

[pendell]

Forgot that wasn't a term for a bunch of smaller agencies in Star Wars.

I'm not sure the Guild will have all contracts available everywhere at the time. Communication in Star Wars is... well spotty at best. Several inhabited worlds show up that seem to have basically no connection to the outside galaxy except what little news they hear from passing ships. The guild's agents on Tatooine could genuinely not have the information that Dooku or the Republic, is offering a bounty on Ventress and/or their information on what Ventress looks like could be bad, not like the holograms in universe tend to be very good.

Didn't the Mandalorian also imply that some bounties get offered to specific hunters before being made public? I could swear I remember an offer of exclusivity being made to Mando at some point, if I am remembering correctly then a bounty like Ventress's would probably not be offered to someone like Boba as he was in the CW.



I'm under the impression that the entire Hutt civilisation styles itself as a criminal organisation despite having a claim to being a kingdom, oligarchy or republic (weird as that concept may be to apply to them). The crimelords, such as Jabba, are the sole constituents of the council that rules their homeworld and all other worlds in Hutt Space, rather than just dealing with their criminal matters and negotiations regarding areas where their criminal affairs overlap. The cartels are in theory responsible for whatever passes for a civilian government on their worlds, though I imagine they're negligent towards anything they don't see as a business investment.

They are a government, a laissez-faire government steeped in corruption and based on a parody of real life mafia's, but they still meet all the basic criteria I can think of for a government.

Ironically, the Hutt government looks suspiciously like the Republic's. If you have a number of powerful individuals or families, each absolute ruler of their own spheres. Since no one "family" will bow to another, this would mean they would require some sort of council where they could agree on matters involving Hutt Space as a whole, while leaving individual Hutts entirely to their own devices. That's not at all dissimilar from the Republic, with it's Senatorial governing body without military power, and in which the member planets and other groups have absolute autonomy within their spheres.

So the Hutts ARE a Republic, of a sort. Just if the Republic was comprised entirely of Hutts.

Wasn't there a Hutt Jedi in one of the Legends stories? He must have been considerably different from your run-of-the-mill Hutt.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Wasn't there a Hutt Jedi in one of the Legends stories?

I want to say Planet of Twilight. Even if not, I'm like 90% sure it was Barbara Hambly.

[Aeson]

I want to say Planet of Twilight. Even if not, I'm like 90% sure it was Barbara Hambly.

Beldorion says... correct on both counts.

[Mechalich]

I want to say Planet of Twilight. Even if not, I'm like 90% sure it was Barbara Hambly.

That is correct. The rogue Hutt Jedi Beldorion appears in that novel. A Force Sensitive, but non-Jedi, Hutt also appears in the novel Scourge, by Jeff Grubb.

So the Hutts ARE a Republic, of a sort. Just if the Republic was comprised entirely of Hutts.

The Hutts had plenty of influence on the Republic over time, so there's some measure of convergence. Notably, in Legends Blotus the Hutt served as Supreme Chancellor for 275 years, and his generally peaceful reign was later renowned, with the Hutt serving as a great figure in Repbulic history. Most Hutts probably find this hilarious.

[Fyraltari]

I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in Phantom Menace he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.

The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?

[Thrudd]

I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in Phantom Menace he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.

The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?

Right. Lol. That's why in my head canon, Hutts must have telepathic powers. No Hutt needs to serve another Hutt because they've all telepathically enslaved, or at least charmed, a gang of sufficiently "weak willed" aliens to do their bidding. They probably evolved from parasitic brain slugs that would move around the galaxy getting rides on beings that encountered their home world. Over time their bodies and brains grew to allow them to "charm" more than one being at a time.

[Fyraltari]

Right. Lol. That's why in my head canon, Hutts must have telepathic powers. No Hutt needs to serve another Hutt because they've all telepathically enslaved, or at least charmed, a gang of sufficiently "weak willed" aliens to do their bidding. They probably evolved from parasitic brain slugs that would move around the galaxy getting rides on beings that encountered their home world. Over time their bodies and brains grew to allow them to "charm" more than one being at a time.

So in your headcnnon, are there like, fewer than sixty Hutts, or?

[Mechalich]

I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in Phantom Menace he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.

Being both rulers and criminals at the same time is quite common. It's called kleptocracy and it's actually quite common. The point of Jabba's higher status during the PT era is to highlight the colossal failure of the Republic of that era to actually function. Tatooine was still at that time technically part of the Republic, buy Jabba's control was so strong he could at as the de jure ruler of the planet. What was the Republic going to do about it, send a strong worded letter? The Empire, by contrast could and, as we see in ANH, did park Star Destroyers over Tatooine which forced Jabba back into the roll of de facto ruler. This didn't do much on the economic front but it did mean Jabba couldn't preside over podraces and the like anymore.

The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?

The Hutt Clan structure predates the Republic, and Hutts have complete control over their own reproductive processes. They are perfectly capable of insuring their population never outpaces the supply of slaves and minions. There absolutely are gradations of power among the Hutts, within their clan structure, and there's presumably a large number of low-ranking Hutts on the secret Hutt treasure worlds where non-Hutts aren't allowed to go. Now, Hutts presumably do screw up from time to time and wind up massively in-debt or something, in which case the families take care of it, haul the Hutt home, and make them do penal white collar labor in a box or something for a century, but outsiders aren't allowed to see that in the same way they aren't allowed to see the secret Hutt war fleets and a whole bunch of other stuff that Hutt society has spent 25,000 years pretending doesn't exist. It would endanger the Hutts image (and self-image) of themselves as a superior species that doesn't have to do things like work anymore.

[Thrudd]

So in your headcnnon, are there like, fewer than sixty Hutts, or?

Oh, yeah, I guess there couldn't be too many. More than 60, though, I could see several thousand on a world where they are the dominant power and each control a household of a couple offspring and a couple dozen alien thralls. They probably killed each other off early on in their history, until a sustainable population was reached.

[Peelee]

I think the issue with the Hutts began by a continuity error of sorts between the OT and the PT. In the classic movies, Jabba was a simple crime boss operating within the Empire. But in Phantom Menace he is presentedas the legal authority over Tatooine, which is not part of the Republic. And yet he is still called a gangster. So we end up with this weird situation where Jabba, and all other Hutts who are copies of him, are both rulers in their own right and criminals at the same time.

The other issue is that all the Hutts we see are always in position of authority, when there should be billions of them who aren't any more wealthy than you average Human or Rodian. Where are all the Hutt unskilled labourers or starship captains? How come no Hutt gang seem to ever employ Hutt thugs?

You're rarely, if ever, going to see an unskilled Hutt laborer. Hurts are egotistical and xeno-... Uh, xeno-egotistical? They see Hutts as the highest form of being. A low ranked Hutt ain't getting off Nal Hutta to be viewed by the galaxy as possibly equal to them.

Also, would there be billions? Thet live over a millennia and their food intake must be quite hefty, both of which are more likely to produce a lower population than shorter-lived, less food-intensive peoples.

[Fyraltari]

You're rarely, if ever, going to see an unskilled Hutt laborer. Hurts are egotistical and xeno-... Uh, xeno-egotistical? They see Hutts as the highest form of being. A low ranked Hutt ain't getting off Nal Hutta to be viewed by the galaxy as possibly equal to them.

But we've seen Nal Hutta, foreigners can come and go on Nal Hutta.

Also, would there be billions? Thet live over a millennia and their food intake must be quite hefty, both of which are more likely to produce a lower population than shorter-lived, less food-intensive peoples.

Right, but they control a large portion of the galaxy. They've got to number at least in the millions. They can't all be obese crime lords, who's growing all the food?

[Peelee]

But we've seen Nal Hutta, foreigners can come and go on Nal Hutta.

SW:TOR and a few episodes on TCW were all I'd have seen it in, looks like. I don't much remember it from TCW, but did we have a nice, in-depth look at it? Or were those scenes just hitting the highlights and not going too deep into anything?

Right, but they control a large portion of the galaxy. They've got to number at least in the millions. They can't all be obese crime lords, who's growing all the food?

Robots, servants, imports because they're all obese crime lords and can afford it. Welcome to Star Wars, the land of single-biome planets and entire alien species who have one job. Try the blue milk and make sure to tip your bounty hunter.

[Fyraltari]

SW:TOR and a few episodes on TCW were all I'd have seen it in, looks like. I don't much remember it from TCW, but did we have a nice, in-depth look at it? Or were those scenes just hitting the highlights and not going too deep into anything?

Some walking around in the cities. One trip into the marshes.

Robots, servants, imports because they're all obese crime lords and can afford it. Welcome to Star Wars, the land of single-biome planets and entire alien species who have one job.

Alas.

make sure to top your bounty hunter.

I can think of two meanings for this. Both sound dangerous and one sounds fun but that depends strongly on the bounty hunter in question.

[Peelee]

Some walking around in the cities. One trip into the marshes.

Let me put it this way: we have seen significantly more of Kamino. Have we seen Kaminoan fishers or architects? They eat and have buildings, after all.

I can think of two meanings for this. Both sound dangerous and one sounds fun but that depends strongly on the bounty hunter in question.

The third is much less exciting - simple "phone guessed the wrong word".

[Fyraltari]

Let me put it this way: we have seen significantly more of Kamino. Have we seen Kaminoan fishers or architects? They eat and have buildings, after all.

All we've seen of Kamino is one specialized facility.

The third is much less exciting - simple "phone guessed the wrong word".

Pfffft.

[Peelee]

All we've seen of Kamino is one specialized facility.

Cooks and janitors, then?

[Fyraltari]

Cooks and janitors, then?

Let me put it differently. Beyond Kaminoan clone specialists, we've seen two politicians, one hostess and whatever the one riding the flying fish's deal was in the movies and TCW alone. No-one, that I am aware of, treats the idea of a Kaminoan being not involved in the clone trade as being noteworthy or the idea of a Kaminoan Jedi being paradoxal.

Yet people think of the Hutt Jedi mentioned upthread as odd and of the succesfull Hutt galactic Chancellor as surprising.

You and I agree that this comes from SW's habit of pigeon-holing entire races into being Xerox of movie characters/the most (or first) well-known member of the species. I think that they should do something about that, and also that the Hutts have it particularly bad (maybe because their niche is an especially bad one).

[Aeson]

No-one, that I am aware of, treats the idea of a Kaminoan being not involved in the clone trade as being noteworthy or the idea of a Kaminoan Jedi being paradoxal.

There's actually a(n exceptionally old) Kaminoan Jedi in the old EU material.

[Mechalich]

An aristocracy can easily represent two or three percent of a population. The Hutts, in areas they control, are a kleptocratic aristocracy. This isn't actually anything special, it's how a colonial foreign power operates, just scaled up to the immensity of Star Wars.

And the Hutts are explicity a colonial foreign power. Nal Hutta is not their homeworld, they stole it from the Evocii.

[Peelee]

Let me put it differently. Beyond Kaminoan clone specialists, we've seen two politicians, one hostess and whatever the one riding the flying fish's deal was in the movies and TCW alone. No-one, that I am aware of, treats the idea of a Kaminoan being not involved in the clone trade as being noteworthy or the idea of a Kaminoan Jedi being paradoxal.

Yet people think of the Hutt Jedi mentioned upthread as odd and of the succesfull Hutt galactic Chancellor as surprising.

You and I agree that this comes from SW's habit of pigeon-holing entire races into being Xerox of movie characters/the most (or first) well-known member of the species. I think that they should do something about that, and also that the Hutts have it particularly bad (maybe because their niche is an especially bad one).

The Hutt Jedi was not paradoxical. It was just very badly done. Barbara Hambly wrote very bad Star Wars books.

Also, we see Hutt politicians in the Galactic Senate in the movies, if that makes you feel better.

[Fyraltari]

And the Hutts are explicity a colonial foreign power. Nal Hutta is not their homeworld, they stole it from the Evocii.

But they all live there, don't they? They've abandoned their original planet, if I remember correctly.

The Hutt Jedi was not paradoxical. It was just very badly done. Barbara Hambly wrote very bad Star Wars books.

Even without reading the book, people usually consider it as odd as Skippy the (joke) Droid Jedi.

Also, we see Hutt politicians in the Galactic Senate in the movies, if that makes you feel better.

I don't recall. But also all Hutts shown are politicians.

[Keltest]

In the old EU at least, there were some "servant" hutts that showed up, at least one of whom had some sort of infirmity that prevented him from gaining weight properly, and was thus considered a barely-Hutt abomination to be used and discarded when he eventually broke down.

The Hutts are all politicians and leaders because they put themselves in that position deliberately. They dont like the idea of a Hutt laborer, they consider it beneath them, and allowing one real Hutt to do that embarrasses the rest of them.

[Fyraltari]

The Hutts are all politicians and leaders because they put themselves in that position deliberately. They dont like the idea of a Hutt laborer, they consider it beneath them, and allowing one real Hutt to do that embarrasses the rest of them.

So what, Hutts have an absurdly efficient welfare-state?

EDIT: ypu'd think a sppecies typecasted as "ruthless criminals" ould have a more "dog eat dog" mentality.