Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Peelee]

It's incredibly disappointing that so much narrative space got devoted to bringing back Darth Maul, while Grievous was mostly relegated to "angry cyborg who hates Jedi." His pre-cyborg backstory in the New Essential Guide to Species is wild: dude was born on the Star Wars equivalent of a pre-warp civilization being raided by slavers from Huk, a planet on the edge of Republic Space. He and his mate captured enemy equipment, kicked the slavers off their planet, reverse-engineered a war fleet and went on to attack the colonies that had supported the slavers during their raids, so successfully that the Huk government ran to the Republic for help against this "unprovoked" invasion.

He's basically a successful version of The Commander from XCOM who rallied his planet against alien invaders and led them into the space age out of sheer necessity. He should have been oozing charisma and force of personality. But no. Angry cyborg who fails a lot and hates Jedi.

Dont forget "runs away!" he's gotta run away in ever appearance so he can be alive in Episode 3!

Imean jeez, just create a new character. Colonel Placeholder or whatever.

[Jasdoif]

Imean jeez, just create a new character. Colonel Placeholder or whatever.

Wait a minute....Placeholder? Peelee?!

...a Force-sensitive kell dragon with some traits from the zillo beast would be an improvement over most of Grievous' appearances, yes.

[runeghost]

It's incredibly disappointing that so much narrative space got devoted to bringing back Darth Maul, while Grievous was mostly relegated to "angry cyborg who hates Jedi." His pre-cyborg backstory in the New Essential Guide to Species is wild: dude was born on the Star Wars equivalent of a pre-warp civilization being raided by slavers from Huk, a planet on the edge of Republic Space. He and his mate captured enemy equipment, kicked the slavers off their planet, reverse-engineered a war fleet and went on to attack the colonies that had supported the slavers during their raids, so successfully that the Huk government ran to the Republic for help against this "unprovoked" invasion.

He's basically a successful version of The Commander from XCOM who rallied his planet against alien invaders and led them into the space age out of sheer necessity. He should have been oozing charisma and force of personality. But no. Angry cyborg who fails a lot and hates Jedi.

While it's not remotely canon, I can't help but think of Grievous as his portrayal in the Darths & Droids webcomic:

Spoiler: Spoilers for a years-old webcomic

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where he's an insane, cyborged Chancellor Valorum. Who has great monologues.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Thoughts on season 4

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Overall season 5 isn't the best season of the show. It has a really rough start with the Mon Cala arc, the droid weirdness and the first Naboo episode. Then a pretty strong middle with the Umbara arc (best one in the season), the Ahsoka standalone, the slaver arc and the "Obi-Wan the double agent" arc, the last semi-arc is a mixed bag as Ventress's and Boba's episode was rather good the other two weren't.

We've now definitely settled into a "several four-parters and a couple standalone" structure. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it clearly limits the shows ability to tell a continuous story, as is evident from my growing season-long frustration with the lack of progress on what I'm calling the "rogue Sith plot" (i.e. Ventress, Maul and Savage stuff). It's understandable they ditched this structure for Rebels. Also, I feel like several of these arcs could have stood to lose an episode that could have been better used elsewhere (or put to better use within the arc's story).

This season has definitely killed any remaining sense of menace I had from Grievous. Getting captured by Gungans, of all people, was bad enough, but even when the show decides to give him a win (against the Nightsisters) he still manages to lose fights and botch the job. Remember how he was on shaky grounds with Dooku back in the early seasons? How has he not been "fired" yet? Seriously, how hard could it have been to throw a few random Jedi at him to kill to justify his reputation? I'm not saying they should have brought back the unstoppable juggernaught of the original cartoon, but still...

The show continues its attempt at telling Anakin's story better than the movies, by showcasing his growing (relative) ruthlessness with the slavers and having him feel betrayed by the Council and Obi-Wan. This is still rather milquetoast as Anakin still hasn't done anything that's actually morally reprehensible in this show despite already being a mass-murderer on his way to kill children.

The Umbara arc was zcellent, it gave Fives and Rex some much needed character development. I'm a bit disappointed that Cody didn't get to enjoy some of that too. I guess they didn't want to make him evolve too much, since he's fated to shoot Kenobi in the back, and they may not have come up with the brain-chip idea yet.

Maul's return is a bit underwhelming so far. He's made one very unsubtle attempt at killing Kenobi that obviously didn't work out. For a character that's been teased one whole-ass season ago, that's not much. Like I've said several time, he's in a narratively awkward place as the show needing to account for his utter absence in Revenge of the Sith means he can't really succeed.

Assajj becoming a bounty hunter is a really unexpected direction for her character to go. I wonder where they're taking her. What does it say about me that I would love it if they went full redemption-arc with her, ending with her being accepted into the Jedi Order, only for Vader to kill her in the sack of the Jedi Temple?

As an aside, does anyone know why it's called The Clone Wars? I'm only aware of one war going on.

Season 5, Episode 1 : Revival

Spoiler: Recap

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The narrator informs us that Maul and Savage have been on something of a rampage throughout the Outer Rim, fleeing from the Jedi but killing and pillaging as they go. While we're being told this we see them defeat and kill a pair of Jedi: a twi'lek woman and someone who looks like Master Di. Cut to them attacking a space station and slaughtering the security droids defending it. One droid is cut off as he states they are "trespassing on intergalactic--" so I guess this place belongs to the Banking Clan? Savage randomly kicks stuff around until he breaks a safe open, and it's almost overflowing with credits. Maul doesn't care about wealth, he just wants to kill Kenobi.

He says that in order for them to go on, they must not be conflicted and Savage must submit to his vision. Savage thinks they work well as equals, but Maul simply replies that there must always be two: master and apprentice. And his brother is the apprentice. I see, Maul wants to start his own Sith Order, with black tats and snookers! This pisses off Savage something fierce (understandable, given his two previous masters) so Maul decides to teach him a lesson. He easily overpowers him, grabs his head with his claw-foot thing and slams him on the floor, somehow not breaking his spine. Savage submits and Maul promises to complete his training (hey, he's got about as much as Luke ever got).

Kenobi and Master Gallia arrive at the station looking for the brothers. They're gone but the owner(?) of the place is still there. He's speaking some kind of heavily accented or dialectal English I can only understand like 45% of but he tells the Jedi they stole his cargo ship and were heard speaking of the Surtar sector. Obi-Wan tells Gallia that's where Florum is, so they can expect pirates. Come on, there's got to be other possible planets in the sector they could be interested in, no?

He's correct, however, as a Weequay pirate ship spots the Dathomirians' ship drifting in low-Florum orbit. They detect a couple lifeforms but a down engine. Not one to look a gift bantha in the mouth, the pirate leader decides to board, kill anyone onboard and take their stuff. They find a whole bunch of guns and spice and seem pretty happy with it... until two "Jedi" show up and overpower them. The borthers offer to spare them and pay them handsomely if they agree to work for them. Also Maul clarifies that they aren't Jedi but crimelords. Heh, aspiring crimelords at most. Turns out those guys were working for Hondo, but they're pretty happy about betraying him. Two things: how many people does the Ohnaka gang employ exactly, because it really starts to look like the entire Weequay species work for the guy and how is Hondo still hanging out around Florum? Has Dooku really still not gotten around to making him pay for the humiliation?

Anyway, the pirate calls up a two other underbosses of Hondo. One of which is certain that Hondo will never agree to work for Maul. He's also the only one not to immediately pledge himself to Maul, instead requesting they talk to Hondo about it. What dod you think he's going to say? Maul does so and tell Hondo three of his lieutenants have already joined with him. "Traitors. Scum! I'm so proud... But so betrayed." Okay, that cracked me up. Maul then states there's a penalty for hesitation and kills the one pirate who was on the fence. Hondo tellls him he's dealt with "laser-sword* wielding maniacs" before and he's not afraid of him.

The Jedi reaches Florum's orbit and spot the broters' stolen ship as well as the three pirates. Gallia logically assumes they're selling their stolen goods, but Obi-wan doesn't think Hondo would treat with them. I mean, given his track record, it's a coin-toss whether he'd try to take them hostage for some reason. Kenobi then calls Hondo. The Pirate is angry with the Jedi accusing him of bringing a new menace to his doorstep after the Republic's lost the system, leading to Grievous destroying his stronghold, forcing him to "rummage through the leftovers of [his] once great empire." Okay. Time-out. First. Florum was lost by the Republic? It controlled it in the first place? I thought the pirate base was the only settlement on the planet, are there other poeple living there? Second, Grievous came there? When? And he destroyed the place but left you and a whole bunch of pirates alive with at least three functional ships?! How incompetent can he get? I'm assuming the use of "empire" is a bit of hyperbole on Hondo's part. He's a drama queen. Right. The pirate gets Kenobi up to speed on what's going on and they agree that the Jedi can deal with the "tattooed crazies" while he takes care of the traitors.

The pirate ships do a strafing run on the defenseless loyalist pirates but then decide to land for some reason. Hondo declares he wants their tongues and both groups run towards each other. Also the traiotrs shoot red blasters while Hondo's crew shoot blue for no in-universe reason. The rogue Sith see the Jedi ship landing and run towards them while Maul complains that it's too soon, his plan is not ready yet. Obi-Wan throws a zinger at Maul and they start fighting. Gallia ineffectively kicks Savage at the left knee ans his lack of reaction scares her. The former(?) Nightbrother manages to overpower her and stab her with his horns (why?) and lightsaber. Obi-Wan is horrified and forced to duel the two at once. Hondo, who's retreating calls for him to join his crew in the ruins of his base. The Jedi does so, after pulling Gallia's lightsaber to his hand.

Inside, Hondo sets up an ambush with a cannon and is scared "semi-speechless" (heh) to learn that Obi-Wan's cohort has been killed, since that means this threat may be too powerful for even him. Obi-Wan tells him, he's going to draw the brothers away from the pirate, once that's done, Hondo should blast the passage close. "And leave you alone with the two crazies? Well... okay." The plan works flawlessly and the mutineers surrender when faced with the superior firepower of Hondo's cannon (not sure why exactly, but let's roll with it). MAul and Savage corner Obi-Wan who draws both lightsaber and prepares to take them on. Hondo tells the traitors that the two Sith don't care about them, only Kenobi and they beg for his forgiveness. He decides not to kill them and to celebrate their reunification by plundering the horned men's ship. So is he still taking their tongues? Having just finished Dishonred's DLCs, I am reminded of this moment:

Spoiler: After helping Lizzie Stride take back control of her gang from her treacherous right-hand man

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Lizzie: I forgive you! All of you! I'm filled with love. But, the following people each owe me a finger: Logan, Douglas, Bang-Bang, Ferris, Pigface, the Bakers and Annabelle.
Annabelle: ****.
Lizzie: Two from you, Annabelle. Have a good night!

Obi-Wan holds his ground surprisingly well against the two brothers and kicks Savage's left knee repeatedly (he can't have seen Gallia do it?) until it breaks (or sprains at least) which allows him to pass uunder the Sith's guards and slice off Savage's left arm. Maul cries out for Savage (using his name rather than calling him "Apprentice" like he does the rest of the episode) and force-pushes Kenobi away, collapsing the ceiling between them. Savage isn't bleeding, but his stub leaks the Dathomirian's green magic, which is probably not good for long-term health.

Everybody but the Jedi reaches the exit at the same time and Hondo mocks the Sith for running away from Kenobi. Maul calls him insolent, but Hondo says that, as pirates, they don't even know what that means! The two Dathomirians run away from the pirates, but several lucky shots end up severing Maul's left leg. It also "bleeds" the green mist, so I guess his prosthetics are powered by it too? Maul pulls the Jedi ship form the height it was landed on to slow their pursuers down and Kenobi can only watch them take off helplessly. One of the pirates, however, has a rocket launcher and damages the ship's engines. Maul and Savage (who looks about to faint) get to an escape pod before it crashes. Hondo invites Kenobi to come take a gander at the wreck with him. The pirates find the money but no trace of the Sith. Hondo theorizes they've been vaporized but the Jedi knows better than to accept that. Ohnaka doesn't care.

Cut to Palpatine's office where Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu and Skywalker for some reason are meeting with the Supreme Chancellor. He decides that even if Maul is indeed still alive, this problem can't take away Republic ressources any longer and he wants Obi-Wan to focus on the war again. He doesn't care how many petty crooks Maul can gather, they're irrelevant next to the CIS. The Jedi are dismissed. Obi-Wan thinks the crime families have been left too much alone since the beginning of the war, and this may be fertile ground for the Sith. Yoda agrees with him, but he's worried this is turning into Obi-Wan's perosnnal crusade, clouding his judgement. He decides they should just wait for Maul to reaveal himself again. Cut to Sidious making an evil smirk for the camera.

Spoiler: My thoughts

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Well, Season 5 is hitting the ground running!
This episode was a lot of fun, it was well paced and we got some nice characterization for Maul. He's trying to emulate Darth Sidious, to be true Sith, and treating Savage like an Apprentice rather than a brother, but it's clear he loves him, as his slip of the tongue shows (that and his "trust me" at the end). Maul also seems like he's got an actual plan this time. In part because he says so a few time, but also because he's taking steps beyond "kill Kenobi". Sidous is unlikely to take well to anyone starting an off-brand Sith Order though.

Hondo really hit his stride there. He was really obnoxious in his debut episode and has become gradually les so, but this is the first time he's been genuinely charming and funny. The "charismatic scoundrel" is a tough act to balance and write, but they seem to have found the trick. He didn't really leave much of an impression on me in Rebels but I think he was closer to this level of charm.

Next up: A war on two fronts. I'm guessing more Maul and savage stuff. They do need to get some new prosthetics.

EDIT:
Also, there seems to have been an upgrade in animation? Everything feels more fluid somewhat, especially during Obi-Wan's two-on-one fight.

*So, that's also an in-universe term for lightsabers, huh? Interesting.

[Grim Portent]

Hondo is one of those characters who's either charming or really annoying depending on the episode. More often leans towards annoying as I recall. His crew is basically always annoying.

To be honest I do wish he had gotten killed at some point, he's one of those characters where it kind of beggars belief that he'd survive for as long as he did. Hardly the only character in Star Wars like that, but for some reason he stands out to me as someone who could have died on several occasions where his death would have been better for the story. Certainly he's got the personality where a last stand for his own weird sense of honour would have been both in character and entertaining.

Instead he winds up in Rebels, as basically just a travelling grifter on somewhat good terms with the Rebellion.

The animation definitely makes a step up, especially for lightsaber fights, in the future. Some of them wind up really damn nice to watch.

[Mechalich]

As an aside, does anyone know why it's called The Clone Wars? I'm only aware of one war going on.

"Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." - Leia, ANH.

Since the movies automatically win the narrative, that terminology was sustained, even when Lucas finally decided what the conflict actually looked like and 'Clone War' would have made more sense.

Admittedly, in Legends at least, there were really two wars. The Clone War of the Republic versus the CIS and the Reconquest of the Rim of the Empire versus Separatist holdouts, the Hutts, and various independent warlords from 19-17 BBY, with Clones serving as the central component of the Repubic/Imperial forces in both.

[dancrilis]

As an aside, does anyone know why it's called The Clone Wars? I'm only aware of one war going on.

This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).

The Republic political system has never really been nailed down so it is possible that many 'states' declare war independantly (like the EU), in which case it is possible that many seperate (but connected) wars occured during The Clone Wars.

[Keltest]

*So, that's also an in-universe term for lightsabers, huh? Interesting.

It has been since The Phantom Menace, at least.

[Mechalich]

This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).

The Republic political system has never really been nailed down so it is possible that many 'states' declare war independantly (like the EU), in which case it is possible that many seperate (but connected) wars occured during The Clone Wars.

The Confederacy of Independent systems, as originally designed - meaning in Legends supplemental materials - was a social movement rather than an actual government and the various bodies that made it up such as the Commerce Alliance, the Techno Union, and the Trade Federation could all be said to have declared war on the Republic independently (insofar as a corporate oligarchy can declare war). However, TCW changed this, significantly, by giving the CIS its own Senate structure (even though it doesn't appear to have any power) and casting the various commerce groups as 'officially neutral' to the point that they retained representatives in the Republic Senate (Lott Dodd, the Trade Federation Senator, appears multiple times in TCW) even though military forces they created and managed were actively engaged on the battlefield.

That said, it's possible that there are still independent belligerents that aren't officially part of the CIS, the Umbarans might be one such example, which would support the Clone Wars, plural, descriptive term.

[Grim Portent]

Umbara notably was originally on the Republic's side, only seceding and joining the CIS after their senator was assassinated, so they actually did declare war on the Republic seperately from most of the CIS.

As for the megacorps, I think they maintained an official stance of neutrality, claiming the assets found in the service of the Confederacy were rogue elements or purchased legitimately. The Trade Federation in particular had a treaty that specified they were neutral in times of war, presumably because of how important they were for shipping goods to some parts of the galaxy, which allowed them to 'sell' weapons and droids to the CIS at a relative bargain, blockade Republic planets that owed them money and other things that clearly violated the intent of their supposed neutrality.

[Aeson]

However, TCW changed this, significantly, by giving the CIS its own Senate structure (even though it doesn't appear to have any power)

The CIS having a Senate doesn't say anything more about its governing structure or the degree of sovereignty (notionally) held by its member states than the European Union having a Parliament says about it.

[Taevyr]

Hondo is one of those characters who's either charming or really annoying depending on the episode. More often leans towards annoying as I recall. His crew is basically always annoying.

To be honest I do wish he had gotten killed at some point, he's one of those characters where it kind of beggars belief that he'd survive for as long as he did. Hardly the only character in Star Wars like that, but for some reason he stands out to me as someone who could have died on several occasions where his death would have been better for the story. Certainly he's got the personality where a last stand for his own weird sense of honour would have been both in character and entertaining.

Instead he winds up in Rebels, as basically just a travelling grifter on somewhat good terms with the Rebellion.

The animation definitely makes a step up, especially for lightsaber fights, in the future. Some of them wind up really damn nice to watch.

Aside from his role in the "Seven Samurai" episode, I always loved seeing Hondo in Clone Wars, and he certainly improves as the series progresses. Probably my favourite non-clone side character, chaotic neutral scumbag that he is.

Didn't know he was in Rebels though: the animation style never clicked with me.

[Fyraltari]

he stands out to me as someone who could have died on several occasions where his death would have been better for the story. Certainly he's got the personality where a last stand for his own weird sense of honour would have been both in character and entertaining.

None of the other characters have any connection to him, so I'm not sure. Maybe if it's framed as a blowback from his general (mis)behaviour?

"Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." - Leia, ANH.

Since the movies automatically win the narrative, that terminology was sustained, even when Lucas finally decided what the conflict actually looked like and 'Clone War' would have made more sense.

Yes, I know, I was wondering about in-universe reasons. I guess Lucas originally envisionned it as a series of conflicts, but given how unreliable about his original ideas he is, we will never know.

Admittedly, in Legends at least, there were really two wars. The Clone War of the Republic versus the CIS and the Reconquest of the Rim of the Empire versus Separatist holdouts, the Hutts, and various independent warlords from 19-17 BBY, with Clones serving as the central component of the Repubic/Imperial forces in both.

A) Isn't RotS set in 19 BBY? Because the' it sounds like the exact same conflict.
B) Even if not, that's not a reason for characters to use the plural while still in the "first" clone war.

This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).

Like you said: "World War Two". Singular.

It has been since The Phantom Menace, at least.

Being in no hurry to rewatch that film, I will take your word for it.

The Confederacy of Independent systems, as originally designed - meaning in Legends supplemental materials - was a social movement rather than an actual government

Wasn't the name "CIS" already established by stuff like visual dictionnaries when the Prequels were coming out? Because that's a government's name.

Granted, names in Star Wars are very weird.

However, TCW changed this, significantly, by giving the CIS its own Senate structure (even though it doesn't appear to have any power)

It seems to have significant power, actually, since Dooku can't just override its decision to negociate a peace and has to work behind the curtain to stop it.

and casting the various commerce groups as 'officially neutral' to the point that they retained representatives in the Republic Senate (Lott Dodd, the Trade Federation Senator, appears multiple times in TCW) even though military forces they created and managed were actively engaged on the battlefield.

I still think that was a bad idea. Of they wanted neutral war profiteers, they should have gone with TaggeCorp, Blastech and such. This way not only do they not contradict the films, but it nicely sets up the Empire's corruption and hypocrisy.

That said, it's possible that there are still independent belligerents that aren't officially part of the CIS, the Umbarans might be one such example, which would support the Clone Wars, plural, descriptive term.

The Umbarans were supported by a battle-droid fleet.

Aside from his role in the "Seven Samurai" episode, I always loved seeing Hondo in Clone Wars

Even when he decided to take hostage the people paying him for his other hostage?

Didn't know he was in Rebels though: the animation style never clicked with me.

He's lost his gang and is basically just an ageing petty crook/funny man helping out once in a while.



10 quatloos on him showing up in future Filoni-helmed works, like The Mandalorian or Ahsoka.

[hamishspence]

10 quatloos on him showing up in future Filoni-helmed works, like The Mandalorian or Ahsoka.

He's already shown up in Galaxy's Edge tie-in novels set after TFA, so there's nothing to stop him appearing in the post-Rebels era.

[dancrilis]

Like you said: "World War Two". Singular.

But that is essentially merely branding - like 'the war to end all wars', 'the great war' and 'WW1' can all refer to what could be called 'the first world war'.

Calling the set of global conflicts in the middle of the last century 'world wars two' sounds off and calling the conflict 'the clone war' sounds less impressive then 'the clone wars' - I am sure that the republic/cis/empire marketing team did consider a whole load of names for the conflict to be called (and likely had more then one acceptable one), and that is before regional differences get involved and different education systems apply.

It is possible that Luke's schooling was 'a series of conflicts - commonly called 'the clone wars' due to the prevalance of clone troopers used in various the conflicts - which ultimately lead to the collapse of the old republic and the formation of the empire' before moving onto the lesson plan of 'and here is an economic rational on why we farm moisture on a desert planet'.

[Peelee]

This is normal - of you take a look at the timeline of WW2 (World War 2) you will see that there were many different declarations of war, the first of which was Germany declaring (via ultimatum) against Poland and the last of which was Mongolia declaring against Japan (via wiki, other wars can be argued).

The Republic political system has never really been nailed down so it is possible that many 'states' declare war independantly (like the EU), in which case it is possible that many seperate (but connected) wars occured during The Clone Wars.

Even if that were true, Yoda said in the very first battle, "Begun the Clone Wars have."

Didn't even torture the narrative to fit the name. Just had a character name it that for no reason.

10 quatloos on him showing up in future Filoni-helmed works, like The Mandalorian or Ahsoka.

He's a Filoni character who survived TCW series, and Filoni is involved in those shows. No bet.

[Fyraltari]

But that is essentially merely branding - like 'the war to end all wars', 'the great war' and 'WW1' can all refer to what could be called 'the first world war'.

But it's still just one war. Yes there were various parties involved, but it was just one conflict.

I am sure that the republic/cis/empire marketing team did consider a whole load of names for the conflict to be called (and likely had more then one acceptable one), and that is before regional differences get involved and different education systems apply.

I think Yoda just coined the term in AotC.

It is possible that Luke's schooling was 'a series of conflicts - commonly called 'the clone wars' due to the prevalance of clone troopers used in various the conflicts - which ultimately lead to the collapse of the old republic and the formation of the empire' before moving onto the lesson plan of 'and here is an economic rational on why we farm moisture on a desert planet'.

But it was just one conflict: CIS vs Republic. Even if the Separatists were an alliance they had a unified military with a centralized command structure.

[dancrilis]

Even if that were true, Yoda said in the very first battle, "Begun the Clone Wars have."

That is not what I hear him saying.

Spoiler: Video of Attack of the Clones

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My hearing is 'begun the clone war has', indicating that the initially naming and the later naming are different and that some civil servant likely got plenty of work out of giving it a different name and came up with 'the clone wars'.

But it's still just one war. Yes there were various parties involved, but it was just one conflict.


I think Yoda just coined the term in AotC.


But it was just one conflict: CIS vs Republic. Even if the Separatists were an alliance they had a unified military with a centralized command structure.

Some of it I think could be described as seperate conflicts such as planetary civil wars that occur within the overall conflict with backing for one or both major sides.

[Fyraltari]

Some of it I think could be described as seperate conflicts such as planetary civil wars that occur within the overall conflict with backing for one or both major sides.

But that still a single war. With multiple theaters/fronts, yes but there is a unity of the two sides and the reason for their fighting.

He's a Filoni character who survived TCW series, and Filoni is involved in those shows. No bet.

Hmm, what other The Clone Wars alumni might show up in live-action in the future?
I'm thinking:
-Rex, provided Temuera Morrison agrees to it.
-Ventress
-Some of the Hutt Council
-Embo and Suki, I think was the name of that zabrak bounty huntress?
-The Pandonians

Hmm, it's hard to think of other characters that are popular, not confirmed dead and not pre-existing.

[Keltest]

There was also the war against Death Watch/the Shadow Collective on Mandalore, which was fought using the clones. And presumably many other border rebellions that weren't part of the separatist movement that the clones participated in.

[Grim Portent]

Given that the war was called the Clone Wars by the Repubic pretty much from the start I think it could just be a matter of multiple planets declaring independance at the same time without an actual single government for the Republic to declare war on. The CIS government didn't exist immediately, they took a while to form their own parliament and elect Dooku as their formal leader.

In the interim the Republic would presumably have declared war, possibly in an informal fashion, on the secessionist worlds. So you'd have the war on pre-CIS Trandosha, pre-CIS Geonosis and so on, which then becomes a single war when the seperatists create a formal governing body and become the CIS proper rather than a disparate political movement rallying behind a figurehead.

Really there could be a few in universe explanations for the name, but I think the idea that the war started out as a group of smaller fuzzy wars fits what we've seen quite well.

[Aeson]

Wasn't the name "CIS" already established by stuff like visual dictionnaries when the Prequels were coming out? Because that's a government's name.

Confederacy of Independent Systems sounds more like the name of an alliance, actually. Also, to put stock in the name, a Confederacy in modern political theory is a union of sovereign states, i.e. something more akin to the European Union or the Confederate States of America than to the United States of America or the Swiss Confederation; its central authority can pass laws but has limited or no power to implement and enforce them.

Furthermore, in relation to this line of discussion it is worth mentioning that in many cases things get identified with particular constituents of the CIS rather than with the CIS itself in Star Wars works set in the Clone Wars period, including if I am not mistaken the visual dictionaries and Guide to X series books.

B) Even if not, that's not a reason for characters to use the plural while still in the "first" clone war.

There isn't any particular reason to assume that the Clone Wars are a series of strictly-sequential wars rather than a collection of contemporary wars.

But it's still just one war.
...
Yes there were various parties involved, but it was just one conflict.But it was just one conflict: CIS vs Republic. Even if the Separatists were an alliance they had a unified military with a centralized command structure.

Is the Hundred Years' War a single continuous war that lasted ~117 years, or a series of conflicts all related to an English claim to the French throne and disputed possession of Normandy and other areas more or less along the French coast? Are the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars several distinct wars, or one long conflict between Britain, France, and their neighbors in which Britain and France clashed while their neighbors passed in and out of the war and from one side to the other and back as alliances and the fortunes of war shifted?

Also, with regard to World War II being 'just one war,' I would point out that a very good case can be made that the Second World War is actually at least two more or less separate wars that react on one another and get lumped together under one banner mostly because of common participants; the war against Germany and the war against Japan interact mostly because Britain and the USA were heavily involved in both.

[Mechalich]

Hmm, what other The Clone Wars alumni might show up in live-action in the future?
I'm thinking:
-Rex, provided Temuera Morrison agrees to it.
-Ventress
-Some of the Hutt Council
-Embo and Suki, I think was the name of that zabrak bounty huntress?
-The Pandonians

Hmm, it's hard to think of other characters that are popular, not confirmed dead and not pre-existing.

The zabrak bounty hunter's name is Sugi. She and Embo both appeared in the Aftermath novels, briefly. Sugi's niece is Jas Emari, a character of significant importance in the Aftermath novels, providing her an additional tie-in to the new canon. Embo is somewhat more complicated. Though Disney canon has established he was still as bad*** as ever all the way out in 34 ABY (decades after the current live action show dates), and Embo is a fan-favorite character his alien physicality might be a challenge in live action.

Bounty Hunter droid C-21 Highsinger is a possibility though, especially since droids don't have the aging out issue that impacts most of the TCW characters 30 years down the line.

[Peelee]

On a related note, my deepest sympathies to anyone who has read the Aftermath series.

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, Episode 2: A War on Two Fronts.

Spoiler: Recap

Show

The planet Onderon, lead by its new king has seceded from the Republic and joined the CIS, however a rebel movement of Republican loyalist is still fighting from the jungles. Their leaders are on the holo-phone with the Jedi council as well as Ahsoka and Anakin, for some reason, and look! Lux Bonteri is part of the group. They're asking for hardware and other supplies to support their fight. Obi-Wan objects that the king of Onderon did choose to join the Separatists. The implied message being that the Jedi don't want to overthrow a legitimate government, even if separatist allied. In which case I've got to wonder what exactly Obi-Wan thought he was doing on Geonosis and Umbara. ****ing tourism? Another insurgent interjects that this king is an usurper, and a separatist puppet and the real one (he doesn't say his name) has been silenced. Yoda gives a non-committal assurance that they'll find a way and the call ends. Not before Lux and Ahsoka exchange glances, which should be impossible since on her end he's got a life-sized hologram and on his, she's ten-centimeter high on a table, but whatever.

Anakin argues that the Republic could fund and train pockets of resistance on many separatist planets to hit "soft targets" while the Republic does the heavy lifting. To Kenobi's hears that sounds like terrorism. To mine it sounds like asymetric warfare. You can disrupt supply lines (for example) without targeting civilians. Windu agrees with Skywalker (still weird), this would open a "second front" for the Separatists to deal with. Yoda is worried that they shouldn't use fear as a tool, it's against the purpose of the Jedi. Obi-Wan is afraid of a slippery slope. "We must not train terrorists. -Huh, rebels." Cute. They argue a little more along those lines until Yoda decides they'll send advisers to train and observe, nothing more for now. Anakin is to assemble a team and Obi-Wan volunteers, because he "trusts Anakin too much" and that worries him. This is why he's going to kill you all one day, you know.

Cut to our favorite trio of Jedi and a clone (later shown to be Rex) wearing something like modern military fatigue dropping in the Onderonian jungle in the middle of the night. They meet up with rather jumpy insurgents lead by a woman named Stila would takes them to their base in what looks like an abandoned temple. The rebels are using some alien-horsies and dragon-looking things as mounts. Stila introduces them to Saw Guerera, who fancies himself their leader even though the others don't seem to necessarily agree. Two things: one that's the guy from Rogue One, I knew he was going to show up here eventually. Two, so the deposed king isn't the leader? I guess he must be dead or prisoner somewhere, then. But the Jedi are going to take charge for now, it's time for training.

Anakin and Obi-Wan expalins that they're here to teach them how to beat battle droids who outnumber them, but not to fight their war in their place (fair enough). First lesson is going to take place a "half-click" west (500m then? If you're leaving the camp, I guess it makes sense to not go very far, but still that's very not very far). Ahsoka takes the opportunity to have a chat with Lux. She says she had no idea he had ties with Onderon and he replies that it's his home, the planet he and his mother represented in the Senate. Okay, so two things, does that mean Padmé never told Ahsoka even the most basic thing about the senator they were going to meet? Second, if that's the case why did your mother live in big honking mansion on the planet Praxis? Also he says that he's not changed his mind, he doesn't want to "fight for the Republic". Wait, hold on. IS he speaking just for himself? Because he's joined a pro-Republic movement, hasn't he? Or do the rebels also not want to rejoin the Republic and, I guess want a completely independent Onderon? In which case, I've got to salute the chutzpah to ask the Republic for aid. Ahsoka mentions the last time they met, prompting Lux to explain to Stila that Ahoska's the reason is with them and not Death Watch. You're telling me that without her, you'd have join the guys who massacre villages for not grovelling hard enough, really? Stila... is not very fond of Ahsoka and of Lux's high opinion of her.

On the training ground Ahsoka explains to the rebels how to fight a tank... Where did they find that tank?! Did the rebels capture it? Because if so, I think you can skip the lesson! She explains that they're piloted by two dorids in two chambers who need to both be taken out to disable it. Rex demonstrates by jumping on the tank, opening the first hatch and tossing a grenade in it, then doing a completely unnecessary somersault to get on the cannon, walking on it like an acrobat, opening the second hatch and tossing a grenade inside and jumping off. So, do the droids never lock the hatches, or? Anakin orders the trainees to pair up to practice a simultaneous attack. First up are Saw and Lux. Saw starts opening the bottom hatch and Lux tries to climb on the cannon, but he falls on Saw and the both roll on the ground. Swa calls him a terrible soldier. Kenobi tells Anakin that they should focus on the quick learners, they don't have much time. I guess that makes sense, then the Onderanians can train each other.

Meanwhile on the outskirts of Izziz, the capital, a random B1 orders a trio of probe droids to check a specific area where an unregistered ship landed last night. Back at the training, Stila is patching up Lux while Saw LARPs as a drill-sergeant. He goes to see Bontieri and blames him for getting them both killed, had it been a real combat situation. He's basically calling him a useless politician, and he's calling him a knucklehead. Stila tries to calm them down by saying their little operation will need both "words and action" their respective specialties. Saw just leaves. Next lesson: droidekas. Anakin explains that their shields can withstand anything that's not classified as artillery, but theyr have two weaknesses: 1) the shield lets slow objects pass, so they don't hinder the droids movement (that makes a lot of sense) which they demonstrate with a couple of droidekas (again, where did they get those?) by shooting at them and then tossing an EMP grenade. 2) they don't have eyes on their back, so distract them from one direction and toss the EMP from another. There's a catch, though, you need to toss it just hard enough that it reaches the droid not so hard that the shield stops it. Saw tries and... too fast. Lux tries and... nails it in one. Ahsoka compliments him and if looks could kill, Stila could start a lightsaber collection. She tries and... too fast. Lux shows her how to do it by grabbing her arm and shoulder and demonstrating the proper gestrure. Ahsoka goes all puppy-eyes while violins play. "Oh, great." My thoughts exactly, little 'soka. Ahsoka wants to practice with Lux but he's already paired with Stila so Saw volunteers to get her help. What am I watching?

The probe droids found them! And they report it to an OOM commander droid on the outskirts of Izziz. Is he supposed to be the same B1 as before? That one didn't have any yellow markings. The commander dispatches a squad (one tank, and about 60 B1s and B2s) to deal with them. Back at training, Saw finally manages after several tries, but Stila gives up. Ahsoka goes to talk to her while she's tending to her sniper rifle. Ahsoka tells her it took her a while to learn to do it right to. Stila simply says that she "know[s] what [she's] good at" while looking down the scope of her weapon. She proves it by shooting heads of B1s on a wall in the next trainign lesson. Mandatory "Impressive. Most impressive." from Anakin. Ahsoka levitates one head to give her a moving target and... she lands every shot. Everybody, including Lux, is impressed with her. Anakin asks Ahsoka if she's losing focus. She says she's fine. Rex explains that a headshot is the onmy way to both make sure a droid is dead and not passing intel to central command. The training continues until Stila spots the squad of droids almost ontop of them. Huh, did you guys place no sentries at all? Can't decide whether you're worse insurgents or military trainers. What is this, amateur hour?

The battle starts in earnest, with Obi-wan informing us that training is over. Time to graduate, I guess! Anakin suggests he take the left flank while Kenobi takes the right, but Kenobi says they're only here to protect them, not fight the war for them. YOU ARE BEING SHOT AT! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! Kenobi tells Stila to run awy with the rebels while the JEdi cover them, but she says they did't teach them to run. I guess that was lesson 4? She orders Saw and several other to throw disruptors at the droids. "What is that? -It looks like an explosi- BOOM!" still as perceptive as ever, those droids. Also, I suppose lesson 5 ought to be "the difference between disruptors and C4", because that was no disruptor. And then the tank shows up and starts shelling them. Stila shoots the the locks off the "horse" paddocks and the beasts starts rampaging. Towards the droids who are currently shooting instead of away because shut up. Saw hands a grenade to Lux and asks if he's ready to try again. They run to the tank, climb it, without trying to get on the cannon, (Rex is a bad teacher is what I'm getting at) and toss the grenades inside. It explodes. Did they run out of ion charges or what? Lux's got a little bit of soot on his face and Saw likes it. Makes him look like a warrior.

The Jedi congratulates them on their victory, but points out that more droids will come, now that they know where the base is. They're very enthusiastic now that they've realized how dim-witted the droids can be. They won't be able to deal hit-and-run tactics. They need a plan to get into the city, though. Luckily, Lux has an idea. It's to show up at the main gates riding carts and say they've been hunting for days. They claim they didn't know they needed to register because they're almost never in the city. The droids can't scan much of their carts because they're full of organic matter. So they let them in. naturally. Once inside the rebels split off and plan to meet up at nightfall. Obi-Wan tells Anakin he's hopeful about the new strategy. Err, why are you still there? Weren't your orders to just train them? Because you're directly taking part in an operation, now.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

I remember Onderon from Kotor II, nice place. I haven't seen Dxun anywhere in this episode, not even in the establishing shot of "ship arrives at planet", is it no longer canon? I always thought it was a cool, if bonkers, idea.

Hey, you know what this show needs? A love triangle! It makes sense that Ahsoka would start to get boy-trouble, I guess, but I only find love triangles tolerable at the best of times, so I hope we get this done fast.

Star Wars tactics barely make sense on their best day (hello future armies using 19th century battle tactics!) so I can forgive them considering sponsoring insurgent movements on ennemy territory as a bold new strategy this late into the war, but why do the Jedi equate anything not a direct confrontation on the battlefield with terrorism? Nothing in Anakin's proposal involved using terror at all! This seems like a way to lean on the old meme of Rebel alliance = Space terrorists, even though the Rebels are never shown to use fear or target civilians.

So I touched briefly on it in the recap, but Obi-Wan disapproves of overthrowing a legitimate king who chose to join the Separatists. Really? Isn't that the entire point of the war? The Republic refusing to accept the independence of the CIS and therefore branding its leadership as traitors? What does he think will happen once the Republic wins, excatly? A pat on the wrist and a stern lecture about the galactic constitution? This fits with a general trend in this show, but not just, to portray the CIS as leading an aggressive war against the Republic as if they were a foreign state trying to conquer it, when logically/ideologically they should just be trying to get them out of their territory. I guess it makes sense from a Sith perspective to maximize the destruction and spread it around, and from a purely military perspective, you' d want the fighting to happen on the other guy's turf, so as long as there's fighting the CIS pushing into Republic space isn't absurd. But come on, most of the fighting should be happening inside the CIS's borders.

Next up: Front Runners

[Keltest]

Keep in mind that the Jedi know that the CIS is a puppet state for the Sith, but most people do not. Their goal isn't to bludgeon the rogue systems into line except when completely unavoidable.

Of note, they didn't overthrow the government of Geonosis either. Obi-wan at least clearly views the Jedi as actual honorable chivalry style knights, and not just wizards with super swords. Anakin meanwhile seems to look at them as being obligated to the Republic and to serve as best they are able.

[Grim Portent]

Well yes, technically what should have happened is the CIS aligned senators present a document declaring their intent to secede from the Republic, then begin the process of withdrawing from the Republic Senate and the removal of Republic government organisations from their territory as they form their own government and make their own arrangements in a process taking several years, with a war only starting if the Republic tries to stop them leaving. Assuming the Republic legal system allows for secession, which it seems to in the case of Onderon and so would presumably allow for every seperatist world to secede peacefully.

What actually happened was the Clone Army attacked the CIS aligned world of Geonosis, which had just been the seat of a secret negotiation between the leader of the Confederacy and the leaders of various business conglomerates promising military support in exchange for favorable business deals, while the ruler of Geonosis was in the process of executing a senator and two jedi on espionage charges. The CIS then started seceding quickly in response to the attack on one of their own by what many saw as Republic authorities, egged on by pro-war business groups. The Republic then justified further military action in response to the 'illegal' secession and the acts of aggression against Republic authorities, even if most such acts were justified in the context.

In theory Dooku and Palpatine would have justified starting a war another way without the first battle of Geonosis, likely playing on the anti-seperatist sentiment among the Republic senate to push for not pulling out of CIS territory, and generally leaning on the seperatists until they lashed out, or by playing on specific interspecies tensions, like with the Republic Kashyyk and Seperatist Trandosha, which have the awkward spot of being in the same system and hating each other.



Personally I generally feel the CIS were right to want to secede, and should have been able to do so without an army of clones and space monks attacking them... buuuut there are edge case planets like Zygerria and Trandoshan that want to secede so they can do evil stuff without risk of legal punishment. I doubt a peacetime CIS would let them keep doing that stuff for long either, but then the CIS is based on the principle that they should be less centralised than the Republic, so curtailing the actions of their various immoral member planets could be considered as violating the spirit of their nation. Not to mention the presence of the Seperatist War Council, consisting of Dooku and his various corporate stooges which were actively trying to start a war in the name of profit margins.

So I'd say there is grounds to oppose the idea of invading a world just because it's seperatist, but still be in favour of fighting a war to apprehend Dooku and the various war criminals he has surrounded himself with in order to then negotiate properly with the people who have a legitimate grievance with the Republic. Not sure that's supposed to have been Obi-Wan's thoughts when opposing getting involved with Onderon, but I think having a problem with Dooku that he's willing to fight over doesn't necessarily make him a hypocrite when not attacking a planet that has switched sides through seemingly legitimate means. Of course not intervening on Onderon when they did on Umbara is a bit hypocritical, but I think Umbara was more strategically important, and stopping the Sith necessitates stopping the CIS first, which in turn requires the recapture of Umbara, so it can fit with a greater good kind of thought process.

Or it's just shoddy writing to justify doing different kinds of genre fiction. Maybe a bit of both.

Keep in mind that the Jedi know that the CIS is a puppet state for the Sith, but most people do not. Their goal isn't to bludgeon the rogue systems into line except when completely unavoidable.

Of note, they didn't overthrow the government of Geonosis either. Obi-wan at least clearly views the Jedi as actual honorable chivalry style knights, and not just wizards with super swords. Anakin meanwhile seems to look at them as being obligated to the Republic and to serve as best they are able.

They did arrest the single most powerful (public) ruler on Geonosis, and it's not clear who exactly was in charge of the public facing parts of Poggle's job in his absence. Of course Geonosis' government, or lack of one to be more specific, is such that I'm not sure they could overthrow it in any meaningful way. Pretty sure that Hutt space has more of a tangible government than Geonosis foes as a planet.

[Keltest]

Umbara did seem to have it's own military, while Onderon seems to rely mostly on the battle droids. That may be the difference.

[Grim Portent]

I think Umbara is supposed to be on some important Hyperspace routes, so letting it secede would cut the Republic off from various important routes. Which is kind of a good enough reason to prevent them seceding, depending on how important you view the whole self determination vs stopping the Sith thing.

A similar thing happened with Kashyyk/Trandosha, the system they're in was of vital strategic importance because of the amount of control it gives over travel.


EDIT: Went and checked, Umbara seems to only be relevant because of mineral resources and advanced technology. Though them seceding as a response to their
(Republic loyalist) senator being murdered by a Republic loyalist Rodian as part of a whole scandal might have made the matter one of public image for the Republic as well. Letting Umbara go with the narrative that the Republic failed them so heavily when they had been so highly in favour of defeating the CIS would be a pretty bad look.

[Mechalich]

It's worth mentioning that there are neutral systems, and the show expends a considerable amount of effort - the entire Mandalore plot - dealing with that concept. Onderon, in fact, was a neutral system and has only recently chosen to ally itself with the CIS. This means that Onderon has chosen, albeit not in any sort of democratic manner, to make itself an enemy of the Republic and it is a legitimate military target as a result.

Obi-Wan is engaged in some complex parsing here, some of which has to do with the difference between planetary sovereignty and the authority of the Republic as the government of the galaxy as a whole. His objection seems to be that it is perfectly legitimate for Republic forces to assault and occupy Onderon, as a CIS allied world, but not to interfere directly in the internal politics of said world by fostering a rebellion against the local leadership. There's something to this, though it's stunningly impractical in the breach, and of course the CIS isn't playing by any such principle and is only too happy to bring planets into its fold through extortion, threats, and other illegal means.