Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Fyraltari]

Keep in mind that the Jedi know that the CIS is a puppet state for the Sith, but most people do not. Their goal isn't to bludgeon the rogue systems into line except when completely unavoidable.

But it is the Republic's goal and they serve the Republic.

Of note, they didn't overthrow the government of Geonosis either.

they arrested Poggle and killed Karina.

It's worth mentioning that there are neutral systems, and the show expends a considerable amount of effort - the entire Mandalore plot - dealing with that concept. Onderon, in fact, was a neutral system and has only recently chosen to ally itself with the CIS.

No it was not, Lux's mother was a member of the Republic's senate, until the begnning of the war and a big supoorter of Dooku's. And his father was killed in action, fighting for the CIS a whole-ass
year before he met Ahsoka for the first time in this war that lasted under three years and isn't over yet. Onderon has fought for the CIS since the beginning it looks like.

This means that Onderon has chosen, albeit not in any sort of democratic manner, to make itself an enemy of the Republic and it is a legitimate military target as a result.
Obi-Wan is engaged in some complex parsing here, some of which has to do with the difference between planetary sovereignty and the authority of the Republic as the government of the galaxy as a whole. His objection seems to be that it is perfectly legitimate for Republic forces to assault and occupy Onderon, as a CIS allied world, but not to interfere directly in the internal politics of said world by fostering a rebellion against the local leadership.

What would be the point of conquering a place if you leave the previous rulers in charge?

[Mechalich]

No it was not, Lux's mother was a member of the Republic's senate, until the begnning of the war and a big supoorter of Dooku's. And his father was killed in action, fighting for the CIS a whole-ass
year before he met Ahsoka for the first time in this war that lasted under three years and isn't over yet. Onderon has fought for the CIS since the beginning it looks like.

The Onderon Civil War plot happens in 19 BBY, the final year of the Clone Wars. The previous ruler was neutral. The Separatists invaded and installed Sanjay Rash as the new king - as explained in this episode. They may very well have occurred in the opening days of the Clone Wars. The CIS made huge gains in the very early portion of the war because the Republic had not yet fully mobilized the Clones and much of their materiel was isolated on Kamino and Rothana, which are remote.

What would be the point of conquering a place if you leave the previous rulers in charge?

Lots of reasons, but the obvious one is that taking control of the existing bureaucracy is far more efficient, in the short term, with regard to utilizing the resources of the location you just conquered. Also, the current ruler can be made to swear oaths to obey you, which may be a better binding mechanism than trying to persuade someone new. Historically this sort of conquest was actually more common than conquests where entirely new regimes were installed by the conquerors.

[Fyraltari]

The Onderon Civil War plot happens in 19 BBY, the final year of the Clone Wars. The previous ruler was neutral.

that makes no sense with what was established prior. Mina Bontieri was a member of the republic Senate until the war, therefore Onderon was originally a member of the Separatists.

quote]The Separatists invaded and installed Sanjay Rash as the new king - as explained in this episode.[/quote]
No, the episode says the king made Onderon join the CIS. Although it does imply there was some sort of (likely Sith-backed) coup beforehand.

Lots of reasons, but the obvious one is that taking control of the existing bureaucracy is far more efficient, in the short term, with regard to utilizing the resources of the location you just conquered.

The bureaucracy loyal to your ennemies?

Also, the current ruler can be made to swear oaths to obey you, which may be a better binding mechanism than trying to persuade someone new. Historically this sort of conquest was actually more common than conquests where entirely new regimes were installed by the conquerors.

That doesn't mesh with how the Republic is shown to function, though. e§specially since they consider joining the separatists to be a crime in the first place.

[Sapphire Guard]

yeah, this one only makes sense if the planet is neutral, but I guess the writers didn't want the Jedi being doing under the table dealings but still wanted their asymmetric warfare plot.

[Keltest]

Havent we seen ostensibly neutral systems still have senators on the Republic senate? Why couldnt they have senators on the CIS senate as well?

[dancrilis]

The bureaucracy loyal to your ennemies?

The bureaucracy is unlikely to be loyal to anyone - as government policy changes the bureaucracy and the people within it would adapt to handle that change, this is true for a new king who may be vastly different then the old king, an external power claiming control, vastly different democratically elected parties coming to power, etc.

A bureaucracy that is loyal to something other then preserving the bureaucracy could be seen as a symptom of a failed/failing society.

[pendell]

Lots of reasons, but the obvious one is that taking control of the existing bureaucracy is far more efficient, in the short term, with regard to utilizing the resources of the location you just conquered. Also, the current ruler can be made to swear oaths to obey you, which may be a better binding mechanism than trying to persuade someone new. Historically this sort of conquest was actually more common than conquests where entirely new regimes were installed by the conquerors.

In the days of monarchy, the typical practice was to elevate some member of the target country's royal family who had a following within the country but had missed out for some reason or other on the top spot. You take over, the old king gets pushed aside, your client gets put on the throne as the Rightful King Returned Again, some portion of the bureaucracy swears loyalty, they run the country more efficiently than you ever could. What's more, they owe you for putting them on the throne, so they are likely to do whatever you ask. Especially when their bodyguard has members of your own army and there's an "advisor" standing by the throne quietly offering "suggestions" for anything you care about, while leaving the everyday running of the country to the local ruler.

In history, installing a governor over another country when the governor doesn't understand the culture, customs, speak the language, is a recipe for disaster. I'll leave you to read of Roman history. That was their thing, sending out retired consuls to govern faraway provinces. They wound up fighting a lot of revolts.

Putting the exact same ruler in charge, as in this episode, is not at all usual, but it still makes more sense than ruling directly. Ruling a country is a hard business even when you grew up in it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Havent we seen ostensibly neutral systems still have senators on the Republic senate? Why couldnt they have senators on the CIS senate as well?

Yeah, you're right, Manfalore is neutral but had a senator. Which is just nonsense, how could they be neutral in a war involving the Republic if they're part of the Republic, and if they're not part of the Republic how can they have a senator?

The bureaucracy is unlikely to be loyal to anyone - as government policy changes the bureaucracy and the people within it would adapt to handle that change, this is true for a new king who may be vastly different then the old king, an external power claiming control, vastly different democratically elected parties coming to power, etc.

A bureaucracy that is loyal to something other then preserving the bureaucracy could be seen as a symptom of a failed/failing society.

Right, I was wrong on that count. However I maintain that it wouldn't make sense for the Republic to keep the Onderonian pro-separatist leadership in place. They've betrayed the Republic once, what would make them think they won't do so again? And why would they get away with high treason?

[Grim Portent]

Yeah, you're right, Manfalore is neutral but had a senator. Which is just nonsense, how could they be neutral in a war involving the Republic if they're part of the Republic, and if they're not part of the Republic how can they have a senator?

Ah but you do not need to be part of the Republic to have a senator. The Trade Federation has one, the Muun Banking Clans have one, several other megacorps have one despite all being nominally neutral and operating both in and outside of the Republic, several independant but friendly worlds have one. The Republic Senate consists of senators who represent actual constituent worlds and senators who represent parties that are merely powerful enough, or otherwise relevant, to justify having a say in the senate, ostensibly to promote peaceful conflict resolution.

Is it stupid on the face of it? Yes, but it does make sense for a corrupt and truly ancient society to have made all sorts of weird political and legal compromises over the years.


There is also a weird thing going on where the Council of Neutral Systems includes planets that are in the Republic as well as ones outside it, and possibly a few that are ostensibly seperatists. Just because a planet is nominally subject to the Republic doesn't mean it doesn't have enough clout to refuse to take part in various actions. The Republic is something of a loose quasi-democratic federation, with it being largely decentralised and toothless until Palpatine manages to push through various reforms that centralise power under the office of the Supreme Chancellor.

[Taevyr]

I always presumed that "Neutral" in this case means "not wanting to pick sides", similar to how a few states remained nominally neutral during the american civil war (if I remember correctly), from which Lucas took his inspiration.

Beyond that, it's just star wars (or at least, late republic-era) politics not really being thought out well enough to stand up to closer scrutiny.

[Keltest]

"Neutral" in context seems to mean retaining membership in one government, the other, or both while not committing resources to the war effort directly and refusing to cut trade or political ties with either side. Given the Republic's seeming lack of a standing army prior to the clones, I think its even likely that this ability is written into republic law, since its not like there were any outside powers to deal with for a long time.

[Thrudd]

Beyond that, it's just star wars (or at least, late republic-era) politics not really being thought out well enough to stand up to closer scrutiny.

I think that's really what's going on. Everyone trying to analyze and figure out what's going on in the setting is mostly chasing after nothing. Lucas certainly never gave much thought to how anything would really work, on any level. It's all about aesthetics, themes, nostalgia and tropes.

[Kornaki]

It's not hard to point to a continent on earth right now where there is a large political/economic bloc, and a large bloc with a strong collective security agreement, and membership is similar but not the same for both of these, and also various countries have weird bespoke membership agreements.

Just multiply that by 10,000 and you probably have the republic.

[Sapphire Guard]

Whatever claim Onderon has to neutrality is scuppered as soon as separatist forces prop up the ruler. I think we can blame Dave and Chris for this one.

[Keltest]

Whatever claim Onderon has to neutrality is scuppered as soon as separatist forces prop up the ruler. I think we can blame Dave and Chris for this one.

That the old king was overthrown with help from the separatists suggests that Onderon was conquered by the separatists, in practice if not in name.


... wasnt the old senator, Padme's friend, one of the ones on the Separatist senate that was advocating for an end to the war and for peace overtures?

[Fyraltari]

That the old king was overthrown with help from the separatists suggests that Onderon was conquered by the separatists, in practice if not in name.


... wasnt the old senator, Padme's friend, one of the ones on the Separatist senate that was advocating for an end to the war and for peace overtures?

Yes. She was also a staunch Separatist and an admirer of Dooku.

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, Episode 3 : Front Runners

Spoiler: Recap

Show

The Jedi are still observing the rebels' operations inside the city of Izziz. I just want to say that I love how anytime they want to look inconspicuous, the Jedi wear full robes and pull their hoods up, but absolutely nowhere do we ever see a non-Jedi dressed like that. It's like private detectives still thinking long rain coats and wide hats make them unremarkable deecades after they fell out of style. Also, the narrator informs us that the population is afraid of the partisans despite the fact that their attacks have resulted in zero casualties so far. Not very hard to scare for people living ona planet teeming with monsters. Anyway, Ahsoka watches Lux throw an EMP grande at a platoon, Obi-Wan sees Saw gun down two droids who were harassing a random man and Anakin and Rex observes Stila and a couple of redshirts storm some sort of checkpoint. this is apparently the fifth attack this rotation (day? week? average B1 battery life?), which Stila and Anakin think is bound to get some reaction from "King Rash". The camera then pans from their position, over the rooftops to the palace balcony. I don't usually comment on the technical aspects of these episodes, because I'm not savy enough to do so, but that was a beautiful shot. I feel like they're getting more and more comfortable with what they can do on a visual level. Anpther impressive shot like that was Boba going from one end of the train to the other in one shot last season.

Anyway, the king, who's dressed up in some approximation of a Ancient Roman general uniform is informed by his aid (an alien of a species I don't recognize, called Duntop and speaking of himself in the third-person) of the day's attacks. The King is unimpressed but he changes his tone when told his personal carriage was ambushed (huh, we didn't see that happen. My guess is that the Duntop is plotting something against the king). Angered by the seeming attempts against his life, Rash has his predecessor summoned. He seems to believe the guy is in charge of the rebels, even though, as the previous king points out, he's locked up tight and has no contact with the exterior. So of course he tells him he can't call off the attack, that they are the people's will manifest and, as the king, it is his duty to embrace, bend or break it. Yo, can someone remind me why we should root for this guy again?

Jedi and Rebels meet up in their headquarters. Anakin approves their actions but Ahsoka and Kenobi (while overall supportive) are worried that the people are mistaken about what the rebels are doing. Saw thinks they should do more damage and doesn't understand why the people aren't fully backing them yet. Lux and Stila tell him they need to earn their trust first. Lux thinks they need to target something big, to show strength and he's already got a target in mind. the Republicans step out of the room and agree that, while not exactly at the same level as the 501, the rebels have learnt fast and getting results. Kenobi elects to leave Ahsoka behind as an advisor/observer while the other three return to Coruscant and make a first report to the Council. Anakin asks Ahsoka if she wants to stay and to remember her puspose. Hey, Ani knows what's up! Obi-Wan also says the JEdi will continue to supply credits and, well, supplies for a while, but the partisans must gradually become independent from them.

So, what's Lux's target? The city's main power station. destroying it would cut power to most, if not all of the city (hopes their hospitals have emergency generators!), which means the droids will run out of power eventually. Problem is, it's highly protected. Never fear, Saw knows just where to get the necessary intelligence, inside a droid's head! He walks to the last droid in a patrol and just straight-up rips its head off. Points for efficiency. They plug it into a briefcase and get a map of the facility, showing up the troops stationed inside. they just don't have the firepower to take it head on, but if they create enough of a disturbance in town, the droids might send a tank after them (holy riot control, Batman!), which they could then hijack and use to attack the power plant. Yup, these guys have been trained by Anakin Skywalker, alright.

The rebels park a speeder (loaded with EMP-explosives) in the middle of a street and hide, waiting for a patrol to show up. They take them out with only one casualty on their side and let the officer in call for back-up (once he's the only one left, I might add, because B1's are dumber than rocks) before gunning him down. But instead of tanks, destroyer droids show up. They fight and Ahsoka draws her lightsabers in the open. Okay, in the jungle that could slide, but in the city? Now, everyone will know Jedi are involved. Lux and Saw, the only two who aren't pinned move around the droidekas and throw their EMP 'nades like they learnt last episode. Saw's goes through without a problem but not Lux's which he blames on Saw reminding him (and anyone who missed last episode) to throw slow to protect the shield, just as he was about to throw. I feel ya Lux. Stila takes advantage of the droid shooting at the dynamic duo rather than herself to run up to it, launch herself to the ground and pass her arm through the shield to deliver her bomb at the right place. Clever. And now a tank shows up. Stila takes out most of the escort with a few sniper shots, while saw and Lux EMP the tank like they practiced. A surviving B2 misses Lux on the ground at near point-blank range. That's not important, but I felt like pointing that out.

Saw climbs into the cockpit and starts pressing buttons to no avail. Stila tells him to let her try because "this needs a woman's touch." Wut? She hotwires the tank to boot it up again. SAw just hadn't realized the EMP damages the tank too. On the one hand, duh, but on the other I'm surprised REx didn't teach them how to get one running again. Saw drives them to the plaza before the power plant and Stila and Ahsoka take position near a statue. From there, the sharpshooter starts firing at the droids to get their attention while the Jedi protects her. Saw just rolls over some more droids and blows up the reinforced doors to the plant. However, he need to reload before he can damage the generator proper, and some commando droids swarm them. They manage to take them out before I have time to wonder where the unnamed rebel that was with them got to, and Saw blows up the generator.

The city goes dark (it's nighttime) while the king and Duntop look from the palace. Rash seems confident he can spin that into something positive for him. The rebels, using Sam Fisher's nightgoggles, take out random droids throught the city, to the crowd's cheers. A bunch of civilians even turned a troop trnasport into a big bonfire. How the hell did they manage that? Back at base, the rebels celebrate, in company of the holograms of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Rex. Lux and Stila start hugging which make Ahsoka do a sad face, something Anakin notices while Rex and Kenobi discuss how good a leader Stila makes. Ani tells Ahoska to remember to stay focused, she tells him she'w trying but can't and to her surprise he says he understands, but she needs to put purpose ahead of her emotions. Kenobi spoils the mood a little by reminding everyone that the separatists are going to strike back hard, now, but they're undaunted. Skywalker tells them they need to rally the people, inspire them, and represent them. Obi-wAn thinks they will need a leader for that. Meh, arguable.

Meanwhile Rash is on the holophone with dooku, who isn't exactly pleased with his performance so far. The king asks for better troops than his droids. Dooku agrees: he'll send him better droids and a better commande. He introduces a tactical droid called Kalami, who should succeed where the king has failed. A droid with and actual name instead of a number? Is that even legal? Also, the fact that Kalami was already in the room and painted in Onderon's colors make me think they were already planning to send him there. Dooku hangs up on the king who looks upset by this. Back at the rebels, the zoom conference is over, Lux and Saw are having their usual disagreement over wheterh they should focus on fighting or garnering support while stila says they can do both and start recruiting while they're at it. One rebel nominates her for leadership, almost everybody present votes in favour. Saw congratulates her and storms off. Lux tells Stila he just needs some time alone but she runs after him. Ahsoka asks her why and she answers that he's her brother. End of the episode. What a weird "reveal", it's not like they ever really butted heads before.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

This is nice. I'm still a bit off-put by the show's insistance that "this is totally shady guys!" when the rebels are being abolutely non-lethal. The villains are clearly just being set-up for the next (couple of?) episode(s?) while the episode focuses on the rebels' dynamic and growing teamwork.

I really like that Anakin immediately sees that Ahsoka is crushing on Lux and is trying to help her manage her feelings. It can be seen a bit hypocritical of him to tell her to stay focused when he's in a secret marriage, but given how protective he is of her in general it's understandable that he wants her to avoid what on some level he probably still sees as a mistake. But at the same time, of course he's not going to forbid anything, because he's been there too, and I think, at this point he trusts her to make the correct choice on her own. So right now, he's mostly just there for her to, maybe not confide in, but show support which is important because it's something he himself completely lacks in the Jedi Order. And of course, it was easier for him because Padmé reciprocates while, Lux is clearly not insensible to Stila. Nice character work from a couple interactions, me likey.

Next up: The Soft War

[Keltest]

Urban warfare is dangerous to civilians by definition. The separatists are bringing in tanks, for crying out loud, and the rebels are hijacking them and turning them against civilian infrastructure. One of those things misses and takes out an apartment building, dozens of people could die. Heck, even regular blasters are pretty inaccurate, especially when wielded by droids, as you noted.

[Grim Portent]

In this instance the issue is trying to do a freedom fighters/terrorists morally ambiguous arc in a show that's not willing to go to the lengths required to make the rebels seem like terrorists from the enemy perspective.

The people of Onderon seem to resent the CIS presence, but not enough to actually fight against it, but get scared by the rebels being willing to do so? It's a bit weird, as the general idea seems to be that no one likes King Rash, and they'd all rather have Dendub back, just not enough to fight about it.

I think it would have made more sense if the people were generally pro-rebel, but too scared of CIS crackdowns to get involved as presented. Or to go the full length and have the rebels killing the odd person involved in the occupation. Assassinating a CIS collaborator would be a bit dark for Clone Wars, but it isn't like the show never plays with ideas like murder and assassination.


Saw in his later appearances outside the Clone Wars is a good 'evil man on the good side' kind of guy. Hates the Empire so much that he's willing to cross almost any moral line to fight them, and I do think the Onderon story would have made more sense if the rebels there were similar to what Saw eventually becomes. As it is the Jedi don't have to compromise their morality to help the rebels at all, they just do the same sort of espionage/commando work that we see them do all the time.

[Keltest]

In this instance the issue is trying to do a freedom fighters/terrorists morally ambiguous arc in a show that's not willing to go to the lengths required to make the rebels seem like terrorists from the enemy perspective.

The people of Onderon seem to resent the CIS presence, but not enough to actually fight against it, but get scared by the rebels being willing to do so? It's a bit weird, as the general idea seems to be that no one likes King Rash, and they'd all rather have Dendub back, just not enough to fight about it.

I think it would have made more sense if the people were generally pro-rebel, but too scared of CIS crackdowns to get involved as presented. Or to go the full length and have the rebels killing the odd person involved in the occupation. Assassinating a CIS collaborator would be a bit dark for Clone Wars, but it isn't like the show never plays with ideas like murder and assassination.


Saw in his later appearances outside the Clone Wars is a good 'evil man on the good side' kind of guy. Hates the Empire so much that he's willing to cross almost any moral line to fight them, and I do think the Onderon story would have made more sense if the rebels there were similar to what Saw eventually becomes. As it is the Jedi don't have to compromise their morality to help the rebels at all, they just do the same sort of espionage/commando work that we see them do all the time.

Perhaps it goes back to Onderon nominally having joined the separatists voluntarily. The original king joins the CIS or otherwise declares his support, but then their senator gets killed and some of their people get offed as soldiers, and support for the war wanes. Dooku, not wanting to let Onderon go, instigates a regime change and places a military garrison. The people arent fond of it, but theyre basically their troops, right? And then the new king turns out to be awful, so people like Saw start having their dark mutterings, but most of the populace still isnt ready to abandon the CIS since so far as they know, the separatists arent directly responsible for the new oppression, the king is at worst just misusing legitimate resources.

Based on their lack of leadership and arguments about getting the people on their side, that also strongly indicates that the rebels currently have no public propaganda. So the only thing the populace are hearing is that a bunch of violence is happening without really understanding the objective, and the only one giving their side is, of course, the CIS puppet government.

[Mechalich]

Perhaps it goes back to Onderon nominally having joined the separatists voluntarily. The original king joins the CIS or otherwise declares his support, but then their senator gets killed and some of their people get offed as soldiers, and support for the war wanes. Dooku, not wanting to let Onderon go, instigates a regime change and places a military garrison. The people arent fond of it, but theyre basically their troops, right? And then the new king turns out to be awful, so people like Saw start having their dark mutterings, but most of the populace still isnt ready to abandon the CIS since so far as they know, the separatists arent directly responsible for the new oppression, the king is at worst just misusing legitimate resources.

Yeah, one thing this arc highlights is that the impact of the change from Republic rule to Separatist rule is actually fairly modest on a lot of worlds and the balance of their populations simply aren't inclined to take up arms in defense as a result. This is particularly true on planets, like Onderon, that aren't of any great significance to the galactic economy. Onderon is a jungle-dominated world full of dangerous animals where the population is largely confined to a small number of fortified settlements. Militarily, it's of negligible importance. Now, from a Legends perspective (and the only reason Onderon appears in TCW was because some writer thought the pre-existing Legends material was cool, so that matters), Onderon is a world of historical importance with cultural influence. The ability to say 'Onderon sided with the Republic/Separatists' is important to galaxy-scale propaganda even though actually controlling Onderon doesn't provide any assets or positional advantage.

The result is that Onderon's nominal allegiance matters more to everyone else than it actually matters to the people of Onderon - to whom rule by the Republic vs the CIS has only modest impacts on their everyday lives. So this bizarre proxy war happens instead of a more typical hot war in the star system.

[Fyraltari]

Urban warfare is dangerous to civilians by definition. The separatists are bringing in tanks, for crying out loud, and the rebels are hijacking them and turning them against civilian infrastructure. One of those things misses and takes out an apartment building, dozens of people could die. Heck, even regular blasters are pretty inaccurate, especially when wielded by droids, as you noted.

Execept that:
A) If you're worried about your ennemy attacking civilians (even by mistake) if you fight them, then you shouldn't be fighting at all.
B) The GAR had no problem fighting in urban environments on Ryloth, Christophsys and Umbara, all battles Obi-Wan was personally involved with (even besieging a city off-screen for that last one).

In this instance the issue is trying to do a freedom fighters/terrorists morally ambiguous arc in a show that's not willing to go to the lengths required to make the rebels seem like terrorists from the enemy perspective.

Yeah, so far it looks like they consider all forms of guerilla warfare to inherently be terrorism (which completely ignores that regular militaries can (and often) do terrorism just fine). So the end result looks like "Is it okay to fight in a war without wearing an uniform?". This would make much more sens if Saw and Anakin were arguing for assasinations or bombings, but they seem unwilling to portray the Republic in a bad light, or to make Anakin unsympathetic.

Saw in his later appearances outside the Clone Wars is a good 'evil man on the good side' kind of guy. Hates the Empire so much that he's willing to cross almost any moral line to fight them

Does he? Because in Rogue One they talk a big talk about him being too extreme for the Alliance but forget to have him do anything that's actually morally questionnable, while they have Cassian shoot a wounded informant. And in Rebels, they have Kallus' backstory be that he was traumatized by a Lasat working for Saw who killed his entire unit, but A) unit of imperial soldiers, so whatever, B) Not even Saw himself or one of his men but a mercenary he had hired.

So is there actually anythin out that portrays Saw doing something actually reprehensible in the name of overthrowing the Empire?

Perhaps it goes back to Onderon nominally having joined the separatists voluntarily. The original king joins the CIS or otherwise declares his support, but then their senator gets killed and some of their people get offed as soldiers, and support for the war wanes. Dooku, not wanting to let Onderon go, instigates a regime change and places a military garrison. The people arent fond of it, but theyre basically their troops, right? And then the new king turns out to be awful, so people like Saw start having their dark mutterings, but most of the populace still isnt ready to abandon the CIS since so far as they know, the separatists arent directly responsible for the new oppression, the king is at worst just misusing legitimate resources.

The first episode states that it was Rash who joined with the CIS. The insurgents argue he wasn't the legitimate king when that happened so they see the CIS presence as an occupation force, which is also how the previous king described them in his one scene so far.

[Grim Portent]

Does he? Because in Rogue One they talk a big talk about him being too extreme for the Alliance but forget to have him do anything that's actually morally questionnable, while they have Cassian shoot a wounded informant. And in Rebels, they have Kallus' backstory be that he was traumatized by a Lasat working for Saw who killed his entire unit, but A) unit of imperial soldiers, so whatever, B) Not even Saw himself or one of his men but a mercenary he had hired.

So is there actually anythin out that portrays Saw doing something actually reprehensible in the name of overthrowing the Empire?

Traumatically mind probing a guy comes to mind. As I recall it was stated that the guy was at risk of going permanently insane as a result.

Also his willingness to threaten the last surviving geonosian with torture and extinction IIRC, partly in the belief he had to know something about why his people had been exterminated by the empire and that it must be important,* and partly because of Clone Wars era prejudice.

*Which to be fair to him, it was pretty important.

He's still a rather milquetoast example of an extremist, but Star Wars has generally shied away from the seriously morally ambiguous stuff outside of comics and novels, especially when it's a nominal 'good guy,' so he's about as good (awkward choice of word here) as evil men on the good side get.

[Mechalich]

He's still a rather milquetoast example of an extremist, but Star Wars has generally shied away from the seriously morally ambiguous stuff outside of comics and novels, especially when it's a nominal 'good guy,' so he's about as good (awkward choice of word here) as evil men on the good side get.

Star Wars has been particularly careful about protecting the moral standing of the Rebel Alliance, compared to other factions. There's a reason for this, since the Rebel Alliance's casus belli for rebellion is based entirely on moral grounds. The Galactic Empire wasn't illegal (Palpatine manipulated the government extensively, but that's really hard to prove), nor was it engaged in an war of aggression against the people the Rebellion represents (the Empire was engaged in numerous wars of aggression against other people, including nominally independent states and CIS holdouts, but these were generally not part of the Rebel Alliance). The Empire has to be opposed because it is evil, and in order for this to work that means the Rebels need to be good. Moral ambiguity imperils the story.

There's a good comparison here with SWTOR where there are solid reasons for those on the Republic side to oppose the Sith Empire even if they are morally dubious or repugnant, because the Sith Empire intends to conquer them. SWTOR does indeed have a number of highly dubious people of the Republic side, and in a fully light side playthrough the Outlander regularly rejects overtures for any number of questionable projects.

[Lord Raziere]

Star Wars has been particularly careful about protecting the moral standing of the Rebel Alliance, compared to other factions. There's a reason for this, since the Rebel Alliance's casus belli for rebellion is based entirely on moral grounds. The Galactic Empire wasn't illegal (Palpatine manipulated the government extensively, but that's really hard to prove), nor was it engaged in an war of aggression against the people the Rebellion represents (the Empire was engaged in numerous wars of aggression against other people, including nominally independent states and CIS holdouts, but these were generally not part of the Rebel Alliance). The Empire has to be opposed because it is evil, and in order for this to work that means the Rebels need to be good. Moral ambiguity imperils the story.

There's a good comparison here with SWTOR where there are solid reasons for those on the Republic side to oppose the Sith Empire even if they are morally dubious or repugnant, because the Sith Empire intends to conquer them. SWTOR does indeed have a number of highly dubious people of the Republic side, and in a fully light side playthrough the Outlander regularly rejects overtures for any number of questionable projects.

Indeed, moral ambiguity is kind of the last thing what is probably the archetypical good rebel vs. evil empire story of our age needs. pretty sure there are other stories where there is moral ambiguity on this kind of thing without tainting peoples memories of what is probably a classic tale for a lot of people.

[Fyraltari]

Traumatically mind probing a guy comes to mind. As I recall it was stated that the guy was at risk of going permanently insane as a result.

Fair point. I don't remember any talk of long-time damage, but that may be because Bodhi was completely fine like, ten minutes later.

Also his willingness to threaten the last surviving geonosian with torture and extinction IIRC, partly in the belief he had to know something about why his people had been exterminated by the empire and that it must be important,* and partly because of Clone Wars era prejudice.

*Which to be fair to him, it was pretty important.

Huh, I forgot about that.

Star Wars has been particularly careful about protecting the moral standing of the Rebel Alliance, compared to other factions. There's a reason for this, since the Rebel Alliance's casus belli for rebellion is based entirely on moral grounds. The Galactic Empire wasn't illegal (Palpatine manipulated the government extensively, but that's really hard to prove), nor was it engaged in an war of aggression against the people the Rebellion represents (the Empire was engaged in numerous wars of aggression against other people, including nominally independent states and CIS holdouts, but these were generally not part of the Rebel Alliance). The Empire has to be opposed because it is evil, and in order for this to work that means the Rebels need to be good. Moral ambiguity imperils the story.

Indeed, moral ambiguity is kind of the last thing what is probably the archetypical good rebel vs. evil empire story of our age needs. pretty sure there are other stories where there is moral ambiguity on this kind of thing without tainting peoples memories of what is probably a classic tale for a lot of people.

The Original Trilogy operates on a clearly mythological level. The Empire is simply this evil sorceror, his dark knight buddy and their flunkies dressed up in pseudo-nazi garbs. The Rebels are good vecause they oppose them. There is absolutely no political element at all. Note how the Alliance's actual goal isn't ever stated (they want to overthrow the Emperor, yes, but it's never even said they want to end the Empire). At most there is the notion that things were better in Kenobi's good old days, but that's it. When it comes to ambiguous morality, there's Vader's redemption arc and the retcon about the Jedi lying to Luke about his parentage (oh, and Yoda telling Luke to let his friends be tortured to death to finish his training), but that's it.

Now the Prequel Trilogy was much more political. Lucas could have had the Emperor be a completely external force to the Republic he overthrew, an invader who lured Anakin to his side. And that would have worked with what we're shown in the Original Trilogy. But he decided instead to tell a tale of how a Republic could willingly hand itself to a tyrant. And this introduced some moral ambiguity. And honestly, I respect that. Turns out the predecessors of the stormtroopers and royal guards fought side-by-side with the Jedi. Turns out Coruscant had a seedy underbelly full of drug-dealers and other unsavory types. Turns out Jedi could just lob a woman's arm off in public, say "Jedi business, get back to your drinks" and no one would care. Turns out the Jedi themselves weren't doing so well (with Yoda lamenting their growing arrogance, something shown a couple of time in the movies themselves, and Windu unwittingly parroting Sidious), etc.

Sidious's rise to power, while very unlikely to be legal (I sincerely doubt the Republic's constitution, fundamental law, or whatever document draws the limits of the power granted to the Senate and the Chancellorship allows for the Chancellor to be crowned Emperor by acclamation) is entirely internal and his grand plan is based on the tactics used by autocrats all over the world to gain and consolidate power (point to a crisis one you may even have created or exacerbated and position yourself as a strongman who could deal with it IF the restrictions on your authority were temporarily lifted). There's absolutely no irony in the popularity of "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." It's a baller line.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't Dune, but there's something there. Alas, "good idea, but bad execution", if that's not the Prequels in a nutshell, I don't know what is.

And of course the tale of Analin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader ought tonbe a dark one, rife with moral ambiguity. Too bad it isn't.

With this added political baggage it's only natural to intoduce some of that to the Rebel Alliance, and I will never stop complaining how much of a wasted opportunity it was not to draw a clear connection between the Separatist Alliance and the Rebel Alliance, these are two factions from the same rough area fightin the same ennemy for similar causes and you're telling me no one who was part of the first one joined the second? Come on!

[Mechalich]

(oh, and Yoda telling Luke to let his friends be tortured to death to finish his training)

Whoa now, Yoda told Luke to let his friends be tortured to death so that he honored their sacrifice "You will destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered." Han and Leia were willing to die to preserve Luke from Vader, and by going to Cloud City Luke offered himself up to Vader's hands. Yoda thought Luke would die in the process and that he would not necessarily save his friends. Luke does help - he removes Vader from the board for a critical hour or so, but ultimately it's Lando's choice to save or condemn Leia and Chewie (and later on, Han), and even then R2-D2's ingenuity is required for them to overcome the failsafe Vader has in place. Yoda was ultimately wrong - which is an important piece of foreshadowing that Force visions of the future aren't always right - but his motives were quite reasonable.

Sidious's rise to power, while very unlikely to be legal (I sincerely doubt the Republic's constitution, fundamental law, or whatever document draws the limits of the power granted to the Senate and the Chancellorship allows for the Chancellor to be crowned Emperor by acclamation) is entirely internal and his grand plan is based on the tactics used by autocrats all over the world to gain and consolidate power (point to a crisis one you may even have created or exacerbated and position yourself as a strongman who could deal with it IF the restrictions on your authority were temporarily lifted). There's absolutely no irony in the popularity of "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." It's a baller line.

The scene in the Senate in RotS is mostly a bit of political theater. Notably, Sidious says "The Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire!" meaning that this would happen in the future. In Legends the full text of his speech was much longer and contains the specific claim that there will be a new constitution. This is called the Imperial Charter and exists in both versions of canon. So, from a legal perspective what Palpatine did was declare a constitutional convention and then got the Senate to pass a constitution in which he was declared Emperor. This is technically legal, and there are a number of historical figures who have done basically exactly this. That part that is unclear is how legitimate Palpatine's majority actually was versus how much depended upon bribery, intimidation, manipulation, propaganda, and the outright elimination of formerly CIS sectors as a voting block.

With this added political baggage it's only natural to intoduce some of that to the Rebel Alliance, and I will never stop complaining how much of a wasted opportunity it was not to draw a clear connection between the Separatist Alliance and the Rebel Alliance, these are two factions from the same rough area fightin the same ennemy for similar causes and you're telling me no one who was part of the first one joined the second? Come on!

The aren't from the same area, actually, and that's important. The CIS is a Rim Faction, but the Rebel Alliance originated in the Core - Bail Organa and Mon Mothma (and in Legends Garm Bel Iblis) were the Senators of culturally influential Core Worlds. Additionally, the CIS was dominated by aliens while the Rebel Alliance was predominantly human. Many Separatist holdouts did not support the Rebellion - a point made explicitly in Rebels.

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, episode 4: The Soft War

Spoiler: Recap

Show

we open with Lux and Ahsoka placing holographic devices in Izziz's marketplace while Stilla, a squad of partisans and Saw ambush a droid convoy. They've switched to actual explosives now, and Saw uses some to take out a tank by himself as Rex taught them. Stilla addresses the crowd from the rooftop with her speech relayed by the aforementioned devices. She calls King Rash a traitor who bought his crown by sailing the planet to the Seppies and calls for the return of King Dendup. In the palace king Rash (who's taking this as well as you'd expect) is meeting with his aide, the droid general, Kalani, and the leader of the local military, general Tendon who gives off strong Pelleaon energy. Tendon thinks they can negotiate with "the terrorists" if they phase out the droid soldiers for his own, native troops, Kalani and the king shoot the idea down. Tendon has identified Stilla, Saw and Lux as being the leaders of the movement, but Rash still thinks Dendup is somehow in charge. He has him summoned again so he and Kalani can order him to tell "his followers" to surrender. He again tells them he can't actually do that. Sa Rash changes plans.

Cut to the rebels' headquarters, one of them tells everybody that Dendup is scheduled for execution the next day on the main square. Ahsoka thinks that the Separatists are going to turn him into a martyr, but Saw rejects the notion of just letting the old man die. Stilla thinks they should save him during the execution, while he's out of the palace and in front of all the city. Saw thinks that this is precisely what the Separatists would expect and decide to free the king on his own, over everybody's objection. Stilla tasks the one who brought the news to follow Saw from a distance, though.

In the evening, Lux tries to reassure Stilla abouts Saw, but she dould rather plan the next day's operation (wise). And she gets flustered when Lux just stares at her, like a puppy. She asks him to leave her alone for the moment, he leaves and they both look back at the other when they've got their back turned. Menwhile Ahsoka is on the holophone with her master and her master's master. She's worried about the rebels divided themselves and risking so much over just one man. Obi-Wan says the king represents hope and is critical to their success. Whatever. She says she feels responsible for them, but they instruct her to only step in if strictly necessary, the rebels must suceed on their own for this little experiment to mean anything. She agrees.

Saw's managed to sneak to the foot of the palace's walls and uses a grappling hook to scale them up to a terrace where Dendup just so happens to be pacing back and forth. Guerrera easily takes out the single B1 watching over the deposed king and kneels before him. Dendup asks him if he's "one of the meddlers creating disorder and interfering with the affairs of the throne"... Are we 100% sure we want this guy back in charge guys? I'm just saying, this is a great opportunity to try a democracy. Just throwing it out there. he says he feels responsible for the Separatists being there in the first place because he had to choose between the republic or the confederacy (who he sees as equally corrupts) or have the choice be made for him, but he chose nothing. Saw tells him their movement is growing and backed by the Jedi. The latter point motivates the king enough to agree to help the rebels (if he's such a big fan of the Jedi why not side with the Republic?), but Saw's hook is intercepted by one-way shields, triggering an alarm that summons a handful of droidekas. The resistant tasked with watching over Saw witnesses the ruckuss, draws the logical conclusion and runs back to base.

She gets there just as Ahsoka explains to the assembled rebels that she won't be taking part in the plan stilla just explained to them, per her orders. Lux wants to save Saw, but Stilla says they have to focus on saving Dendup, that that's what her brother would tell them to do. Ahsoka agrees, telling them that purpose must come before feelings (something Anakin keeps telling her). Come the morning, Tendon and Kalani are interrogating Saw (via electroshocks) to no avail. Tendon makes them stop and tells Kalani his methods will only antagonize the Onderonians further. The droid does not care. Later yet, Tendon plays good cop by interrogating Saw in a more comfortable environment, giving him a drink and all. Saw accuses him of failing his duties to protect the people by aligning himself with the Seppies. Tendon says Rash is the king and what he says goes (again, big Pelleaon vibes). Saw counters that Dendup is the true king, but denies following his orders. He says he and the general have the same future: free men or servants of the CIS. Tendon says he's free and calls him a terrorist. "Resistance isn't terrorism." Took three episodes, but someone finally gets it right.

The population has gathered on the main square to watch the executions. We see the rebels mingling with the crowd (Tano is also there). The manner of execution is a force-field like thing the condemned puts his neck through and that can become "solid" on demand when struck by two magnaguards in unisson, severing the head from the shoulders. A bit overcomplicated, but okay. Rash and Kalani are directing the executions personally while Tendon watches disappovingly from a balcony. Rash makes the expected kind of speech, then mockingly tells Dendup he hopes he finds forgiveness in "the next world". Huh, we don't often hear about non-Force religions and what, if any, afterlife non force-users expect to get. Stilla waits for the last possible moment (literally after Rash has given the order to execute) to intervene for reasons beyond mortal ken. Her plan is to stand up on Lux's shoulders so she can shoot at the executing droids without hitting the crowd. Lux then throws smoke grenades at the droids and prisoners and the rebels rush them. They take out the guards and rescue Saw and Dendup and why is nobody killing rash he's right there defenseless just shoot him in the face it wouldn't even take two seconds seriously. They try to escape throught the crowds but are stopped by a squad of B2s who shoot down the one rebel who had a little screen-time.

And by squad, I mean seven droids. Seven droids who the episodes wants me to consider as more dangerous than the twenty B1s plus a handful of magnaguards they just smoked with ease. Also the rebels are suddenly down to the named characters plus one redshirt when they had like, six more guys just a second ago. Kalani tells them to surrender or die. Weren't you in the middle of executing them? Just kill them now, you fool! And dendup has them lay down their weapons! The crowd starts booing and Rash tells them to calm down, they're going to execute the traitors. Good thing they laid down their weapons, King Dumbass! Ahsoka runs to intervene, but Tendon and a platoon of Onderonian soldiers arrive first. The General calls Rash a snake and holds the king at spear(?) point. He says he's no longer a traitor and takes the usurper, Kalani and the other droids prisoners. The crowd cheers.

Tendon tells Dendup and the rebels to go away and he orders his troops to go with them while he keeps Rash's with him to stop the Separatists from following them. Why? You have the entire Separatist leadership prisoner, the local army is with you, the "rightful" king is with you, the crowd is cheering you on and the palace is right there. That's it, you've won, just take over. Why are you running away when you're winning? Tendon stays alone with Rash, the crowd and the droids who are all pointing their guns at him. Rash tells him he'll be shot as soon as he releases him. Wow, you make a good point as to why he shouldn't release you but keep you prisoner and take you with him, then. Tendon starts panicking until Ahsoka Force-jumps in there and Force-pushes all the droids to the ground. "Jedi!" yells Rash in surprise. Did no one tell him about the rebel waving blue lightsabers around? Ahsoka tells Tendon to follow her, which he does, after shoving Rash to the ground. Why are you letting him go!? Rash yells at the droids to go after them and kill them but the crowd starts yelling at him and physically stopping the B2s from pursuing the fugitives.

Back at headquarters, Dendup asks Tendon "why now?" to which he simply says it was time for a new approach. Stilla and Tendon tell Dendup he has the army's and the rebels' loyalty. he thanks them and tells Lux his mother would be proud of him. Dendup says they will have to win the hearts of the people (seems already done, if we're being honest) and that the Separatists will strike harder at them, but they're not afraid. While everyone is rejoicing, Lux tells Ahsoka he knew she'd get involved, she asks if she's that predictable "only to me." They share a look. Later Ahsoka tells her masters the separatists definitely know Jedi are involved now and asks for reinforcement, but Anakin says that's up to the council. end of the episode.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

So, did they fix the powerplant or what? How are all these droids still working?

This episode was pretty good, but the general plot-mandated drop in intelligence in the battle at the end was pretty annoying. Also, Rash's over-the-top movements and speech are kind of odd, making him look like he's from a comedic early 2000s video game or something.

The episode wants me to buy that Dendup is a wise leader whose return to power I should root for, but so far he's shown a lack of care for the wishes of the people under his authority, contempt for the people fighting in his name and has admitted to his inaction being responsible for this mess in the first place, so I'm finding it pretty hard to root for him.

Saw's recknlessness is well-handed and the Ahsoka/Lux/Stilla love triangle is not as annoying as I thought.

Next up: Tipping points

[Keltest]

I think the thing with the old king seeming less than amazing is deliberate. This is the guy who joined the CIS after all, and is responsible for a non-trivial part of Onderon's self inflicted problems. Putting him back in charge with no other changes wont magically fix everything. You want to root for him because he isnt actively malicious like the current king, but only because he's the less bad of two choices. The problem was never that Onderon was conquered and occupied by a hostile power, because technically it isnt.

[Fyraltari]

I think the thing with the old king seeming less than amazing is deliberate. This is the guy who joined the CIS after all,

Err, the shows is pretty clear that Rash is the one who joined with the CIS. Dendup says he refused to pick a side.

You want to root for him [...] but only because he's the less bad of two choices.

Oh, you have no idea why that notion pisses me off so much right now.
But like I said in the recap, this looks like a great opportunity to get rid of the kingship.