Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Peelee]

No offense to you or groups like the 501st

Well that's redundant.

[Mechalich]

No offense to you or groups like the 501st, who I have nothing but positive things to say about. But the only "fandom" I can think of off hand that treats a work or creator they supposedly like worse than the Star Wars fandom is the Sonic the Hedgehog fandom.

I can think of quite a few, notably including Game of Thrones. Star Wars is in no way unique in terms of level of fan anger. It is unusual in that there are very few equally large franchises that have managed to survive a string of failures in the way Star Wars has. The usual result of fans turning against a creator is massive franchise contraction and potentially outright franchise death, as can be seen unfolding within the Harry Potter franchise right now.

[Sapphire Guard]

So, my position of 'make minimal effort to fact check before you throw personal abuse' is controversial? Uh, okay.

[pendell]

Ultimately, everything does end up with his approval regardless. Some things are more active (eg him directly saying "make [Ziro the Hutt] sound like Truman Capote") than others, but he still always have final say. He may have rubber stamped some things without looking at them, but hey, heavy is the head that wears the crown.

For example, I blame Abrams for the Sequel Trilogy being the dumpster fire it is, but Kennedy was still the one who hired him. Twice.

I'm not sure that's fair. I remember the hullabaloo that happened around Karen Traviss and her exit from star wars writing. She had written this whole culture and language for Mandalorians for her Republic Commando series of novels, right up until the point George Lucas and the Clone Wars writers wrote Mandalorian episodes in an entirely different direction which made it impossible for the culture or the people she had created to have ever existed. She picked up her toys and went home. There were those in the fandom not sorry to see her leave, given some of her other works really made the Mandalorians out to be better than Jedi, but I think it puts the lie to the idea that everything which happened was subject to GL's approval.

As GL explained it, there were two parallel universes: The universe of the films which he created, and the Expanded Universe, which was essentially a cash cow to generate more star wars revenue. GL didn't review those stories exhaustively but allowed writers to do pretty much what they liked within general guidelines. If he felt it was necessary to throw the entire plotline into the trash because he felt something else was better, he wouldn't hesitate to do so.

I can still remember, back in the 80s, Marvel comics had an entirely different post-Endor history of the GFFA which featured an extragalactic invasion by the Nagai and the Tofs , who were at war with each other. That plotline stood for about ten years before it was summarily tossed into the trash in favor of Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" trilogy. That led to the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and a history of skywalker children into a new empire , and that story stood for about ten years before Lucas sold out to disney and rebooted them again.

Lucas didn't approve , or much care, about the EU. He was even dismissive of it. There were several novels about Boba Fett which he dismissed in interviews with the statement "I killed Boba Fett. He is dead." -- Or he was until he sold out to Disney and they brought him back.

So I think we're making too much of GL's approval. He only really cared in detail about the universe of the films. The EU was something he threw open to other authors and hardly ever intervened in their work so long as it made him money. He didn't care about contradictory stories and he felt no compunction about wiping away whole plotlines from the EU at a stroke if he thought he had a better idea.

So I wouldn't say anything more about GL's "approval" than that he thought it was making him money. There were parts of the EU he didn't like at all but didn't do anything about , for this specific reason.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I can still remember, back in the 80s, Marvel comics had an entirely different post-Endor history of the GFFA which featured an extragalactic invasion by the Nagai and the Tofs , who were at war with each other. That plotline stood for about ten years before it was summarily tossed into the trash in favor of Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" trilogy.

To be fair, just because Zahn wasn't specifically asked to reference that series, didn't mean that other authors weren't prepared to - eventually. Late-period EU works started including characters from this series, and references to its events.

Indeed, some characters from the series are among the few to make it through to the "Disneyverse" after the great reboot - Domina Tagge, Jaxxon, Valance the cyborg bounty hunter, and so forth.

[Thrudd]

The only thing that Lucas can be "blamed" for is not caring about world building. Which was never his intention -he isn't a science fiction writer, not a speculative world builder, not even a fantasy world builder. Sci-fi fans like me can get caught up in trying to understand or reverse engineer the logic of the setting, the "rules" of the magic and technology, the political structure of the galaxy, etc., but the truth is there never was any. The only logic that he followed was whatever allowed him to include the imagery, set pieces, character moments and references that he wanted for each film, tossing in technical jargon or new technology to allow the current plot to happen, without concern for what those inclusions would imply about previous films or the setting as a whole. And that was ok when it was only three movies with no intention of ever returning to that universe. When he decided to make the prequels, the problems with setting coherence became compounded. He's a film maker, interested in creating exciting visual and sound spectacles that showcase cutting edge effects that allow fantastical things to seem "real", with varying degrees of success. That was his only real motivation, IMO. The story serves the visual, for him, not the other way 'round.

I think we could look at Star Wars as less of a persistent fictional universe, and more like a series of ancient myths. Just like ancient myths, there are different versions of the same stories, and some elements and characters can be subtly or wildly different from one version to the next. So it's ok that Luke seems to be different in the OT, the sequels, and the Mandalorian-verse...we shouldn't think about these things as a single big story, but as several different, only somewhat related myths. The "truth" of what was going on in this galaxy will never be known, all we get are stories from "a long time ago", that follow the logic of myth. Of course, the people actually creating these shows and films may not explicitly have this intention, but that is the effect. Since Lucas never really considered the wider implications of the technology and magic powers he introduced on the fictional galactic societies, most of the creators who followed him don't, either.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure that's fair. I remember the hullabaloo that happened around Karen Traviss and her exit from star wars writing. She had written this whole culture and language for Mandalorians for her Republic Commando series of novels, right up until the point George Lucas and the Clone Wars writers wrote Mandalorian episodes in an entirely different direction which made it impossible for the culture or the people she had created to have ever existed. She picked up her toys and went home. There were those in the fandom not sorry to see her leave, given some of her other works really made the Mandalorians out to be better than Jedi, but I think it puts the lie to the idea that everything which happened was subject to GL's approval.

It doesn't, though. Lucas already considered there to be two Star Wars universe, his and everyone else's. And he still dictated what they could and could not do. Zahn couldn't use Sith in Thrawn Trilogy, Stackpole couldn't use Mandalorians, nobody could use Luke's mother, all dictated by Lucas. When someone wanted to do something, he had to approve it.

Now, he said that while he never read the books, he did have a sort of encyclopedia with references he could check so if, for example, they used this name there, he could keep everything consistent even with the two different universes. However, he also allowss a Boba Fett origin story, but then went and contradicted it with his own completely different Boba Fett origin story, so there goes his claims for consistency (he could have just denied the request to start with and had no issues).

Me, I figure what happened with this and with Traviss (who wasn't bad, I never understood the hate towards her) and other stuff that got blatantly contradicted was that Lucas decided des he wanted to do something else and didn't really care what he said in the past, as he was wont to do. Which is fine, his universe, he gets to be the one who says what goes where. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism. Can't be Damocles and then complain about the sword hanging above your head.

Or, in this case, have others complain about it.

[Mechalich]

Me, I figure what happened with this and with Traviss (who wasn't bad, I never understood the hate towards her)

The Karen Traviss situation was that she entered into conflicts with other authors working for Del Rey and the fans, especially over the direction of the Legacy of the Force novel series - which includes hundreds of pages of unnecessary digressions about Boba Fett and Mandalore at the expense of the actual series plot - and failed to realize both that she was less popular than the authors she was competing with, especially Aaron Allston, both within Lucasfilm and among the fandom, and when she refused to play ball and stay away from the Mandos for the next series - which became Fate of the Jedi - they fired her and replaced her with Christie Golden.

George Lucas wasn't involved with that incident which was almost entirely contained within the Del Rey Star Wars publishing group. Truthfully it was a fairly ordinary bit of writer's room politics, but because it was Star Wars it played out across the pages of multiple New York Times bestsellers.

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, Episode 6 : The Gathering

Spoiler: Recap

Show

The narrator explains to us that the war is starting to take a toll on the Jedi Order as fit younglings are hard to find and long to train. Aspirants must pass many tests, the most important of which being "The Gathering" which is where one truly begins their path as a Jedi. As we're told this, we're shown Plo Koon recruiting an adorable baby-Ahsoka and Master Sinube, from Peelee's favorite episode overseeing some younglings (this episode's protagonists) practicing their katas.

The episode truly begins with these six younglings joining Ahsoka and R2 (why's he here?) on the Temple's landing pad. The group (consisting of the human Petro, the Rodian Ganudi, the Ithorian Biff, the Tholothian (Gallia's species) Katuni, the Nautolan (Firsto's species) Zatt and the Wookiee Gunji) has been deemed ready to undertake the Gathering. Ahsoka explains that this means they are going to... build their own lightsaber. And in order to do so, she is taking them to the Jedi's most sacred place: the ice world of Ilum. They land in the middle of a snowstorm, but everybody has packed some warm clothes. Except Gunji. You know, just because they're covered in fur shouldn't mean that Wookiees ought to go everywhere naked. How are they just as comfortable on Tatooine and Hoth without a change of clothes?

Ahsoka takes them to a huge ice barrier and asks the younglings to help her move the ice to reveal the way into the temple. It's a grandiose sight with huge statues of Jedi. And Yoda waiting for them in the middle. Did he close the door behind him. Kind of a flex, honestly. Yoda tells them that a Jedi is the force made physical, which implies the responsibility of protecting others... with a lightsaber. Now, they each must harvest a crystal, each crystal acts as the heart of the lightsaber, focusing the Force from the Jedi. Okay, I really like this. I've always been keen on the idea that the lightsabers should be magical in some way and have a special connection with the Jedi who made and wields them. The idea that the blade is focused Force, I'm not too fond of, though, how does that work for when non-Force users wield lightsabers, do they store the Force? Yoda caps his speech by opening a sun-roof, letting light in, light which is reflected and focused by a couple of enormous crystal up above, guiding it to a frozen archway. The beam melts the light opening the way into "the crystal cave". Yoda tells the children they must enter and will succeed if they trust in themselves and each other.

Ahsoka further explains that once they have their crystals, they mustn't stay inside the cave: once daylight end, the ice wall will reform and everyone still inside will be trapped for one rotation. They will know which crystal to pick when they see it. They go in and we see that about a tenth of the archway (from the top down) is frozen over already. I'm no expert, but I don't think waterfall freeze over in this fashion. Once inside the younglings discuss how they're going to find their crystals when the whole cave is made of ice. Petro isn't worried, he thinks that he can easily spend the night in there if needs be. And Zatt tells him nights in Ilum last for nineteen standard days. That should mean they have 19 days of sunlight to find the crystal (since Ahsoka said they landed just before sunrise) but I guess the crystal array can only focus the light for a short time-span, so they'd be trapped for 36 days. Petro is still confident and boasts that he'll be the first to find his crystal. Katuni says they should stay together but he runs off. The group calls him selfish and moves on.

The group reach an intersection with three possible way out. Katuli says they don't have time to search the entire thing, so now they should split into groups. Zatt suggests they all close their eyes and pick a way. They do that and Katuni and Zapp point to the leftmost doorway, Ganudi and Gunji to the middle one and Biff is the only one to point to the right, meaning they'll be alone. Not to worry, they're unlikely to find a sports almanac in there. Biff is afraid to go alone and tried to change their answer but the others don't agree: they should follow their instinct. Back with Petro who's found a shiny icicle hanging just above a huge drop. Happy to have found a crystal so soon he carefully reaches above the abyss and picks it. Meanwhile Zatt is getting worried they're not finding anything. and that's when Katuni points a shiny light way up on the cave's wall. He can't see it, though, so they conclude this must be her crystal. She's afraid of climbing the freaking wall made of ice, but he believes she can do it. While he stays at ground level looking for his crystal.

Gunji and Ganudi have reached a large cave with openings on the top that let the sunshine through and a partially frozen over lake. Gunji is hearing a constant whistling but Ganudi doesn't hear a thing. then the Wookiee points to a shining light across the pond. Eager, they try to cross the lake but the floating ice is too unstable. Ganudi calms them and tells them they need to be patient. She points out the light is moving away from the lake, freezing it again. They'll just have to wait for it to be frozen and then they'll have a little time to retrieve their crystal and run back out before the way is closed. She wishes Gunji good luck and leaves to find her crystal. Meanwhile, Biff is walking in the darkest part of the cave. And they spot some kind of huge unmoving monster, bathed in smoke and an m=ominous red light, a shining crystal resting in its gaping maw. And there's an animalistic growling too, while we're at it. Biff cowers behind a chunk of ice.

Ganudi is ranting to herself about how ridiculous the whole thing is ridiculous and how she'll never find a crystal. And then the ground gives way under her feet and she falls into a room filled with thousands of specks of light. Petro runs out of the cave to Ahsoka and Yoda, proudly declares hismelf the first one out and presents his crystal to them. And it starts melting in his hand. Yoda opines that he did indeed find a crystal: a water crystal, commonly referred to as a chip of ice. They send him back and tell him to look closer. He's worried that the door is already half closed, but Ahsoka only tells him to hurry. Which he does. Katuni is still mid-climb and almost falls (pretty sure the height would kill her unless she knows to use the force to soften her landing). She reassures herself she can do it and keeps going. Zapp is confused by the readings the machine he keeps fiddling with is giving him: there are crystals everywhere, but he can't find any. In frustration he smashes his tool against the wall, breaking both and seats, desperate. Biff has been slowly making their way towards the huge monster, who looks like a giant spider made of ice with bright red eyes, but can't seem to decide to cross the last few paces.

Ganudi wanders among all the shining lights, incapable of telling which one would be her crystal. She falls on her knee, on the verge of tears. Gunji is pacing left and right on the lake's shoreline, yelling in frustration. Finally, they calm down, kneel and start meditating. Katuni reaches the top of the ice wall and carefully picks her crystal, interrupting its light and chiming. She takes one look down the wall, decides it'd take to long to climb down and head through a passage leaving away from the platform she found herself on. Biff, extremely frightened advances towards the ice-spider, hesitates several times before finally reaching into its "maw" and grabbing the crystal. This stops the hellish growling as well as the red lighting, making the monster appears like it truly is: a formless heap of various chunks of ice. Ganudi decides she's not afraid and that she can do this, she closes her eyes and reach through Force. "I'm one with the force and the force will guide me." So close! The Force theme plays and one of the lights detach from the wall and flies to her open palm, dissipating all of the reflections. Petro is running throughout the corridors in a panic.

Zatt decides he should trust himself rather than rely on tech. Like Ganudi he closes his eyes, reaches through the Force... and the wall behin him lights up. He can see his crystal through the crack he made but there's still a thick wall of ice between him and it. he places his broken machine against the wall, presses a couple buttons and it starts malfunctioning and ultimately explodes, collapsing the wall and allowing him to pick his crystal. Gunji stops meditating, sees that the lake his completely frozen and carefully makes their way through it. And they slip and slide all the way to the crystal. The Wookiee picks it up. Katuni is running back towards the exit when she slips and falls on her back. The ground under her gives way and she ends up in a small room with an ice wall between her and a corridor. she yells for help but no one can here her and she fears that, despite having found her crystal, she'll never make it out.

Gunji reaches the exit, which is already so close to being frozen over they have to hunch to go through and proudly presents their crystal to Ahsoka and Yoda who congratulates them. Zatt, Biff and Ganudi are already out of the cave. THe younglings are worried for their two comrades who are seriously running out of time. Petro realizes he's running in circle when he reaches the first room again, but he hears Katuni calling for him. She explains she's trapped and asks him to help her get out, but he says he still has to find his crystal and he runs off. Ganudi says they should help the two stragglers, but Yoda stops her. Katuni hopelessly bangs on the wall and stats crying. Petro changes his mind and gets back to her. They both push at the same time and manage to break the wall. Katuni wants to run to the exit, but Petro spots something in the rubble. Something... shiny. He tells her to go and she does, having to slip on the ice like a video game character to go under the nearly frozen archway. It closes completely behind her and she tells the others Petro is still inside. Yoda tells them to not give up on their friend and everyone looks at the archway. Through which Petro bursts and rolls over on the ground presenting his crystal. The younglings rejoice and Ganudi asks Yoda how he managed to break the ice. Yoda explains it was just a thin sheet of ice, easy to break if one wants to. Katuni says he said they would be trapped and he explains they were, but only by their mind. Yoda also syas they ahve all learned a lesson: biff learned courage, Ganudi hope, Gunji patience, Zatt trust, Katuni confidence (huh, I'd have swapped those two around, personnally) and Petro selflessness. He then tells them to keep preciously their crystals, calling them young Jedi. End of the episode.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

I really liked that one. I might even call it my favourite so far. Like I have said in the recpa, I've always liked the notion that the lightsabers were somewhat magical, with a special bound to their maker, like being wileded by their maker makes them easier to use or more powerful somehow. "This weapon is your life" and all that. Maybe it's because I've played KOTOR II, where the kyber crystal in the dantooine cave calls to the Exile and becomes more powerful with your character. I also like the idea that a lightsaber's hue says something about the one who made it, but with only two colors allowed to the good guys and one for the bad guys, fat chance of that ever happening. So each Jedi having to find a specific crystal for their first lightsaber and go through a trial tailored to their own biggest flaw to get it, me likey.

Then again, Yoda getting there before everyone else, sorta implies he could have set all of this up rather than it being the will of the Force. The little goblin having foresight powers and all.

Despite the episode having six different protagonists, it manages to give them all roughly the same level of attention and develop each's personality a little. These little buggers were likeable, even Petro the designated "bad" one at the beginning, and even if they only show up for this standalone, and are inevitably murdered before the end of the year, it was nice meeting them.

The ice wall trick was a good example of "Jedi truth" putting pressure on them without putting them at serious risk*, but also being a teaching opportunity.

*Although one does wonder what Yoda would have done if Katuni had fallen off that cliff or gunji tried to croos too early and fell into that freeing water.

Next up: A test of strength. I'm guessing Maul, and judging by my track record of last season, that means it's unlikely to involve Maul.

[Sapphire Guard]

Nice self contained short nice one. I wish there were more of these.

[Grim Portent]

I presume that wookiees don't wear clothing and can just cope with various climates easily for what ultimately comes down to a costume/design issue in the original trilogy.

Chewbacca established precedent for wookiees basically never wearing clothes, despite being on Tatooine and Hoth which have wildly different climates, and with Kashyyyk being portrayed as a warm end of temperate forest world. From a practical perspective this is because of the costume, but I imagine there's some in-universe explanation about their metabolism being able to adapt to extreme temperatures for some reason or other.


R2 seems to be pulling double duty as Ahsoka's droid on occasion, probably told to keep an eye on her by Anakin or something, which is basically just an excuse to shoehorn him into situations. Really she should just have her own astromech, R7, with her whenever an astromech is needed for a story she is in but Anakin isn't.


My assumption is that the hazards of the cave are largely not all that dangerous, at least to force sensitives, and some might not even be real. Between advanced medical tech, superhuman ability, alien biology and the fact that the cave wants people to find their kyber crystals I imagine the rate of serious injuries or fatalities is probably extremely low. I'm not sure if any of the cave is an illusion, but I wouldn't put it past it to be a place that warps perception and only threatens harm for the purpose of testing visitors.

[Mechalich]

I presume that wookiees don't wear clothing and can just cope with various climates easily for what ultimately comes down to a costume/design issue in the original trilogy.

Chewbacca established precedent for wookiees basically never wearing clothes, despite being on Tatooine and Hoth which have wildly different climates, and with Kashyyyk being portrayed as a warm end of temperate forest world. From a practical perspective this is because of the costume, but I imagine there's some in-universe explanation about their metabolism being able to adapt to extreme temperatures for some reason or other.

To my knowledge there is not, though Wookiees may simply have a relatively high temperature tolerance, as camels do. It's also possible, even likely, that it gets quite cold at night on Kashyyyk, given how tall the trees are, which would help explain why Wookiees developed such coats in the first place. The question of not overheating on Tatooine is harder to solve, especially the sail barge sequence in RotJ which involves Chewie being outdoors for a prolonged period (I assume the Mos Eisley Cantina and even Jabba's dungeons have A/C). Perhaps Luke was helping him out subtly using the Force?

[Fyraltari]

Nice self contained short nice one. I wish there were more of these.

Having watched the next one, turns out it's actually the first of an arc.

From a practical perspective this is because of the costume

Obviously, wearing a coat on top of the costume would have been very uncomfortable for Peter Mayhew.

R2 seems to be pulling double duty as Ahsoka's droid on occasion, probably told to keep an eye on her by Anakin or something, which is basically just an excuse to shoehorn him into situations. Really she should just have her own astromech, R7, with her whenever an astromech is needed for a story she is in but Anakin isn't.

Oh, I was more confused about what he was doing here when he played no part in the episode, but he's got a small role to play in the next one, so whatever.

My assumption is that the hazards of the cave are largely not all that dangerous, at least to force sensitives, and some might not even be real. Between advanced medical tech, superhuman ability, alien biology and the fact that the cave wants people to find their kyber crystals I imagine the rate of serious injuries or fatalities is probably extremely low. I'm not sure if any of the cave is an illusion, but I wouldn't put it past it to be a place that warps perception and only threatens harm for the purpose of testing visitors.

I dunno, what would have happened if Gunji hadn't been patient enough and tried to cross the lake before it was frozen solid?

To my knowledge there is not

I assume the Mos Eisley Cantina and even Jabba's dungeons have A/C

Ever notice how most buildings on Tatooine seems to be partially underground (the Lars homestead is obvious but both the Cantina and Jabba's palace have visitors go down to the main area after coming in at ground level) and lack windows to the outside? This would keep the inside temperature constant somewhere around the night/day average and was probably inspired by the local architecture of Tataouine.

[Aeson]

Ever notice how most buildings on Tatooine seems to be partially underground (the Lars homestead is obvious but both the Cantina and Jabba's palace have visitors go down to the main area after coming in at ground level) and lack windows to the outside? This would keep the inside temperature constant somewhere around the night/day average and was probably inspired by the local architecture of Tataouine.

They also appear to be thick-walled and generally have relatively light-colored exteriors, which should also help to passively limit the interior temperatures.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yes, it's the first of an arc. But the episode itself is nice and self contained in a way that's unusual for TCW.

[Grim Portent]

I dunno, what would have happened if Gunji hadn't been patient enough and tried to cross the lake before it was frozen solid?

I imagine he would get very cold, and in turn become seriously ill, but probably not to the point of being at serious risk of death. Medicine in Star Wars is inconsistent, but generally leans towards being very good.

That said, he didn't try to cross and none of the students failed to get their crystals or seemed to be in significant peril, which leads to the possibility that the Jedi know if someone would have the psychological failings or physical frailty to be at real risk in the cave, and would have already expelled such people from the Order.


In a more adult oriented show we might have seen some injuries, death or failure, but I don't think many writers like the idea of the Jedi sending eight year olds to their deaths as a regular matter of business, so would assume the intent is that the dangers are largely a matter of perception.

[Fyraltari]

That said, he didn't try to cross and none of the students failed to get their crystals or seemed to be in significant peril, which leads to the possibility that the Jedi know if someone would have the psychological failings or physical frailty to be at real risk in the cave, and would have already expelled such people from the Order.

That would negate the point of the cave. A trial you have no chance of failing is no trial at all.

That said, it occurs to me that Yoda is close enough that he'd sense if any youngling was in actual peril/pain and intervene rapidly.

I don't think many writers like the idea of the Jedi sending eight year olds to their deaths as a regular matter of business

Oh the Jedi are perfectly fine with that.

Exhibit A: The Jedi Order sends clone-troopers into battle.
Exhibit B: The Jedi Order sends Padawan-learners into battle.

[Grim Portent]

That would negate the point of the cave. A trial you have no chance of failing is no trial at all.

That said, it occurs to me that Yoda is close enough that he'd sense if any youngling was in actual peril/pain and intervene rapidly.

This is fundamentally a test of character more than anything else, or a glorified lesson, it makes sense to winnow out those who are more likely to fail than pass before they have to be put in a position of potential peril, because he former aren't fit to be jedi in the first place.

There are two groups of people who will get to take this trial; children who are already extremely suited to being Jedi, and children who are almost well suited for the role but who need a few tendencies curbed or traits instilled by events that seem perilous but don't actually have to be. Neither should be at much risk unless the Jedi wildly misjudged their students.

Oh the Jedi are perfectly fine with that.

Exhibit A: The Jedi Order sends clone-troopers into battle.
Exhibit B: The Jedi Order sends Padawan-learners into battle.

Clones aren't children by any conventional definition. They're biologically mature and have extensive and sped up educations. They're just naive, somewhat socially stunted and trained with a very narrow set of skills. To call them children is like calling a Geonosian adult a child because they mature faster than humans. They're more like adults who were raised in a cult, which is obviously still highly unethical to use as a basis for an army.

Padawans are essentially medieval squires in SPAAAACE with all the ethical issues that brings, but it is worth noting that before the show they tended to be in their late teens or older. Not sure how old Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, but they certainly weren't children. Clone Wars swung the age of padawans waaaay down in order to have a child protagonist and never really bothers to think about what that says about things.

In universe this could be attributed to the Jedi not being used to war, and having a long tradition of bringing their padawans to help with diplomatic missions, minor criminal matters or to help keep the peace during civil protests. Then war rolls around and they decide, being bad at the whole war thing, to keep bringing their padawans with them and by the time they stop to think about how ****ed up that is they're already in dire straights due to casualties among the full fledged Jedi.

[Mechalich]

Padawans are essentially medieval squires in SPAAAACE with all the ethical issues that brings, but it is worth noting that before the show they tended to be in their late teens or older. Not sure how old Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, but they certainly weren't children. Clone Wars swung the age of padawans waaaay down in order to have a child protagonist and never really bothers to think about what that says about things.

In universe this could be attributed to the Jedi not being used to war, and having a long tradition of bringing their padawans to help with diplomatic missions, minor criminal matters or to help keep the peace during civil protests. Then war rolls around and they decide, being bad at the whole war thing, to keep bringing their padawans with them and by the time they stop to think about how ****ed up that is they're already in dire straights due to casualties among the full fledged Jedi.

Early teenage Padawans have always been a thing. Anakin is actually the premier example: he, at the age of eleven, skipped the Initiate stage of training entirely to become a Padawan directly. Padawan ages are best attributed to how Star Wars has a historical cultural context. Star Wars very much operates using late 19th/early 20th century Western social mores, and in the 19th century child labor was common, including in military contexts (especially on ships).

[pendell]

Early teenage Padawans have always been a thing. Anakin is actually the premier example: he, at the age of eleven, skipped the Initiate stage of training entirely to become a Padawan directly. Padawan ages are best attributed to how Star Wars has a historical cultural context. Star Wars very much operates using late 19th/early 20th century Western social mores, and in the 19th century child labor was common, including in military contexts (especially on ships).

*Nods* The Royal Navy used Powder monkeys, boys as young as ten, to deliver gunpowder from magazines to the guns. My understanding is that the passages were built as small as possible to minimize the risk of explosion, and therefore they needed small people to perform the deliveries.

Something else to consider is that there really wasn't such a thing as "higher education" in those days. You stayed at home with your parents until you were 12, at which point you'd be apprenticed out and work your way up to journeyman and then to master crafter in your own right. If you were a farmer's child you'd stay at home and work on your parent's farm until you'd either saved up enough to move out on your own, or da retires and you take over as farmer.

Because of this, there really wasn't any such thing as "teenager" or "adolescent" in those days; you went straight from "child" to "young adult". You'd be marching as a drummer boy in the army or serving as a powder boy in the navy at 12, a full soldier at 17, married at 15 or 16, a grandparent in your thirties, dead at fifty.

Star Wars harkens back to the past, yes, but it may also harken forward to the future. We have a unique situation where the barrier between child and adult is multiple years of secondary schooling followed by college education followed by years of debt. Is this indeed the future of the world, or is it an unsustainable outlier in which the barrier is significantly lowered, either by advances in education or societal collapse? I suppose time will tell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

I suspect it's more closely supervised than it appears, given how perfectly tailored the trials were and how at least one (the ice sealing the doorway) was an illusion.

Possibly the Force knows what difficulty setting to set.

If by 'perfectly fine with' you mean 'very very reluctantly and not really by choice' then I suppose.

[Fyraltari]

This is fundamentally a test of character more than anything else, or a glorified lesson, it makes sense to winnow out those who are more likely to fail than pass before they have to be put in a position of potential peril, because he former aren't fit to be jedi in the first place.

There are two groups of people who will get to take this trial; children who are already extremely suited to being Jedi, and children who are almost well suited for the role but who need a few tendencies curbed or traits instilled by events that seem perilous but don't actually have to be. Neither should be at much risk unless the Jedi wildly misjudged their students.

Oh yes, definitely.

Clones aren't children by any conventional definition. They're biologically mature and have extensive and sped up educations. They're just naive, somewhat socially stunted and trained with a very narrow set of skills. To call them children is like calling a Geonosian adult a child because they mature faster than humans. They're more like adults who were raised in a cult, which is obviously still highly unethical to use as a basis for an army.

Padawans are essentially medieval squires in SPAAAACE with all the ethical issues that brings, but it is worth noting that before the show they tended to be in their late teens or older. Not sure how old Obi-Wan was in Phantom Menace, or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, but they certainly weren't children. Clone Wars swung the age of padawans waaaay down in order to have a child protagonist and never really bothers to think about what that says about things.

If by 'perfectly fine with' you mean 'very very reluctantly and not really by choice' then I suppose.

Who exactly is forcing the Jedi to send padawans into battle?

And I am not aware of any reluctance on the part of the Jedi to use the clone army. In fact Yoda's decision to take it to Geonosis, starting the war proper, was completely unprompted by anyone as afar as I know.

It seems to me that the Jedi are all fine with the idea of children being in combat situations... because they all were when they were padawans and their masters were when they were padawans and their masters' masters...

[Mechalich]

Who exactly is forcing the Jedi to send padawans into battle?

The casualty levels?

Throughout the course of the Clone Wars the Grand Army of the Republic gets bigger while at the same time the Jedi Order gets smaller. Command resources have to be acquired from somewhere. They can, and do, promote clones to high ranks, but there seems to be some sort of rule that makes it so no clone can be promoted to the rank of general or admiral (promotion purely on merit would probably place the GAR entirely in the hands of Clone Officers, and that would be a PR disaster). They can, and do, allow for non-clone non-Force sensitive officers to enter the command structure, but the Jedi Order can't control those people's choices and the example of Tarkin makes it very clear that the realize how dangerous this can be, especially since the Order knows there's rot in the upper echelons of the Republic even is they fail to find out precisely where. Consequently, they do what military forces throughout human history have done and recruit further down the age ladder (an amazingly large number of major historical conflicts end with the winning side fielding a force of adults against a bunch of teenagers and children fielded by the losers in the final campaigns). Ahsoka herself is an example. She was assigned to Anakin, a very new knight, in the hopes of accelerating her training. Knights are supposed to choose their Padawans after much consideration and meditation, so her very existence is a character demonstrates how the war is straining the Order's long-established structure to the breaking point.

It seems to me that the Jedi are all fine with the idea of children being in combat situations... because they all were when they were padawans and their masters were when they were padawans and their masters' masters...

Everyone in the main Star Wars culture is fine with teens (not children, we don't see any combatants under ten), in combat situations. It's just how Star Wars society works. Lux Bonteri, who is clearly intended to be roughly Ahsoka's age, fights alongside the guerillas in the Onderon Arc and nobody objects that he's too young to be fighting. The various youth of Mandalore fight in that arc as well. Sabine Wren is sixteen when Rebels starts and had already been an Imperial Cadet and spent time as an independent bounty hunter, implying she was in combat situations by the age of fourteen if not earlier. In Solo, when Han goes to join the Empire, he's supposed to be 18, but the recruitment officer doesn't bother to ask about his age, or for ID, or anything. He could easily have been 15-16 and gotten signed up.

Padawans look bad for the Jedi since they are with their masters from the moment the get chosen, meaning it's impossible for the narrative to hide all the dangerous situations they get into in the way it does the fact that there are many soldiers in the galaxy who are not adults. It's one of many examples of things in Star Wars that are generally different from modern Western cultural values, but that is most noticeable in the Jedi because they have a giant spotlight on them all the time.

[Sapphire Guard]

There hasn't been a war like this in a thousand years, so evidently this amount of heavy combat is not routine for Padawan. Ahsoka seems unusually young, by virtue of being the protagonist of a TV show that needs to relate to the kids.

Since you have seen the next episode, they make it clear that the youngling gang are not intended to be tangling with pirates and droid armies yet, that it happened was pure bad luck. So they're not 'perfectly happy' sending eight year olds into combat at all.

Also remember that Senate vote in AOTC authorising the army? It was not the Jedi's decision to use it in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry for the wait everyone, the last month has been something of a mess for me and I have neglected somethings way more important than this watchthrough. Anyways, on with the show.

Season 5, Episode 7: A Test of Strength

Spoiler: Recap

Show

Turns out, the previous episode wasn't a standalone and we're back with the younglings. Ahsoka comes to the group, who is watching Petro the human show-off his moves with a training stick. She tells them that now that they all have a kyber crystal it's time to build their lightsabers. On the ship on the way back to Coruscant? Where's the rush? Shouldn't they be doing this in a Temple? Anyway, they'll get help from a lightsaber designer called Huyang. Who is a droid. Interesting that he has a proper name and not a serial number, makes him stand out from other droids. Also, since he's voiced by David Tennant, I should count myself lucky he's not called DR-10. Also, how have they not already met on the trip to Illum?

Ganudi the Rodian doesn't think they can learn anything from a droid, Huyang says he's taught many a Jedi before them and he will teach many a Jedi after them. Ah, no you won't! Helps that he's got the designs of every lightsaber ever made (and who made them) recorded in his circuits. He rattles off a few options they have concerning material and shape (I wonder if the Order has a policy regarding the more exotic designs like double-bladed?) and lists a few conflicts the Jedi have been involved with and that the lightsabers are the Jedi's only true ally in battle (what about the Force, heh?). He caps it off by saying that they still need to "awaken the Force within" their crystals and since they don't know how to do that yet, they'll have to learn from adroid for the time being.

Finally he remarks to Gunji the wookiee that Jedi rarely come from their species and ask them to reach out with their hand and to "feel" their ideal lightsaber. Zatt describes a lightsaber made of wood. It's not a common choice, but it's been done before. It'll need to be wood from the brylarch tree to be hard enough, so Huyang goes looking for some in various drawers he has. He brings a drawer back and assembles a lightsaber out of the pieces inside which amazes the children (so, you don't have any wood, then?) and tells them it's time to start the work.

Cut to outside the ship and a familiar-looking space-saucer approaching it. Onboard is none other than Hondo Ohnaka and his crew, planning to attack the Jedi ship. These are the vilains of our episode. Oh boy. One crewmate reminds him he'd sworn off messing with Jedi ever again, but he says that he has sources telling him these are just younglings on a training mission but carrying extremely valuable kyber crystals. Okay. First, attacking children? This is a new low for you, Hondo, and I was just starting to like you. Second, does he really expect the JEdi Order to let him get away murdering younglings!? they're going to come after him, violently... Is what I thought until I remembered the Trandoshans who had apparently captured younglings for years without the Order suspecting a thing. Man, the Jedi are terrible caretakers. Third, Hondo has a source inside the Jedi Temple!? What the ****?

Meanwhile, the younglings are all seated around a holo-projection of a lightsaber's blueprint and using the Force to assemble theirs. With their back turned away from the projection. Petro finishes first and says that with his new saber, he's going to duel Obi-Wan and kill Grievous. I guess the lessons from the gathering still need a little time to be fully internalized. Huyang looks over his work and tell him he's put the emitter matrix upside-down which means the saber would explode in his hand when ignited. He has the boy start over from the beginning. They keep working for a while until the ship gets knocked by something. Ahsoka runs off to the cockpit to ask R2, who has been flying solo the entire trip, what's going on. The pirates are shooting at their hyperdrive and manage to cripple it before they can escape.

Hondo has them harpooned (guess not everyone can afford tractor beams) and prepares to board. For some reason moving a boarding tube to the ship necessitates three pirates in spacesuits outside. Huyang quickly realizes they're under attack and he gathers all the kyber crystals to store them in a cavity in his chest. Petro, however used basic sleight-of-hand to keep hold of his.

The pirates start walking in and Ahsoka regroups with the younglings and Huyang. They hide in the ventilation shafts. PEtro would rather fight while Katuni the Tholothian wonders if this is part of their training. Ahsoka sends Ganudi and Zatt the Nautolan to the cockpit to secure it while the others go to the hold with Huyang and seal themselves inside it while she's going to reroute power to the engines (magically fixing the damage, I guess) so that they can break free of the harpoons. This will have the added advantage of unsealing the boarding tube, the resulting vacuum will suck everyone not in the (sealed) cockpit and hold into space. Dang, Ahsoka fights dirty. She explicitly forbids them from engaging the pirates in combat and sends them on their way.

Meanwhile Hondo boards the ship and exclaims "I smell... Profits!" Hey, I know that meme. When told that the ship appears deserted he immediately guesses they must be hiding in the ventilation system. He orders his men to bring him the younglings and the crystals and to kill anyone who resists. One pirate is not comfortable with murdering children so Ohnaka tells him to just think about how rich they're going to be. The pirates apparently can't fit in the shafts (pretty sure they're roomy enough, but whatever) so they try smoking the Jedi out.

Zatt and Ganudi makes it to the cockpit but they are spotted by a pirate. Fortunately, R2 tases him unconscious and they lock him out. tHe others aren't so lucky as the smoke forces them to exit the shafts... right in the middle of the pirates. Petro slips his crystal into his lightsaber and turns it on (depsite the others telling him the matrix is still inverted) , the blades does appear but fiddles out immediately. the pirates mock him and he throws his saber at one of them who claims it for himself. Petro tells him he couldn't handle it, so the pirate turns it on again and the saber starts malfunctioning. The children jump into the shaft again as the weapon explodes, knocking the pirates out. Smart kid. Petro gets his crystal back and the children and the droid run off in the corridor. Biff the Ithorian and Huyang disapprove of his actions but the others are convinced that fighting back is their only chance. Also, the explosion damaged Huyang, he's in no condition to fight.

Ahsoka gets to the engine room, turns a couple switches and call Zatt to tell him she's done. He tells her the others haven't reached the hold yet, so she starts worrying. Gunji and Katuni are in the training room, setting all the training remotes to the highest difficulty. Biff lures a pirate to them, and by lure I mean "runs screaming while a weeqay misses every shot at barely two meters of distance. They lock him (and a friend) and call Zatt in the intercom to have him lock them in, then they turn the remotes on. They rejoin Huyang and Petro, open a door... and see Hondo and a boatload of pirates on the other side.

Hondo demands the crystals "and no-one gets hurt... much." Ahsoka barges in and Force-slams three pirates against a wall. She tells Hondo that he's really putting himself in trouble with the Jedi this time and he basically rpelies "no witnesses, no crime). She comments that he was more hospitable the last time they've met (I don't think he's ever offered her hospitality, though?) and draws her weapon when he says his mood is profit-based. He's got an electrostaff, which allows him to give Ahsoka a run for her money. The others run off but a pirate gets a lucky shot in and decapitates Huynag. He complains that he's been on this ship for a thousand years and has never lost a fight in that time (how many have you had?) and aggressively walks towards the pirate who shoots hi arms off. This is starting to feel like a certain Mounty Python gag. the droid kicks the ruffian unconscious and the younglings gather his bits before running away to the hold. Ahsoka tells Hondo she doesn't want to hurt him. Why? He's literally trying to kill you and the children under your supervision. Why extend him this kind of grace and not to, say Cad Bane?

Zatt tells Ahsoka the others are in the hold and she orders him to proceed, even though she's not safe. He does and the ship starts breaking free. The docking tube bends and an aperture into space opens, sucking the pirates and Ahsoka. Ahsoka and Hondo manages to grab the walls but she lets go so she can quit literally kick him out. the pirates fall into the tube (and one into space) but Ahsoka manages to get a hold of the door leading into it. She Force-pushes Hondo&Co into their own ship and closes the hatch ordering Zatt to jump to hyperspace. And at that moment one more pirate falls into her pushing the both of them through the closing hatch and aboard the pirate ship. The Jedi ship jumps into hyperspace and the children rejoice. I would recommend avoiding the training room until they get to Corsucant, though. Zatt goes to repair Huyang while Petro gushes out over Ahsoka's fighting skills. Which is when they realize she's missing. She's been captured (come on, she could totally beat these fools, or at least kill a couple) and Hondo isn't happy about all the money he hasn't gained because of her (he doesn't even mention the three men he lost) so he's going to sell her. Oh great, I hope we're not going back to Zygerria.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

Pretty good episode overall. Ahsoka and the younglings make a good team. I suppose, it showcases how overtaxed the Jedi Order is that they have to trust this kind of mission to a Padawan (makes me wonder why Yoda couldn't come along, though, he was on Ilum).

Hondo is still rather competent, which is nice, but he really keeps just biting off more than he can chew. At some point he's going to need to accept that he just can't keep up with Jedi. But really, attempted child-murder has got to be the foulest thing he's ever done but the show steadfastly refuses to cast him as a villain. It's fine to have a wild card character that is sometimes with and sometimes against the heroes, but the rogueish charm doesn't really work if you make him despicable.

Huyang is a very interesting idea. He dates as far back as the last war with the Sith and while having the secrets of the lightsaber reside in someone who has no connection to the Force may seem counterintuitive, his potential immortality offsets that very much. Still one has to wonder if that's not the kind of things that would stifle creativity and innovation.When do you think was the last time a Jedi looked at a lightsaber and thought "could we improve on this design"? Also him having an actual name is very interesting. I don't think any other droid has an actual name in all of Star Wars. It makes it look like he comes from a truly different time, where droids where allowed more individuality. Or maybe he didn't always have a name but since his memory was never wiped in a thousand years he developed enough of a personality to pick one. Kind of puts Obi-Wan casual disregard for droids in an even worse light, now.

Also, it's neat that of all the potential Jedi, Petro wished to duel Kenobi, not Windu, Yoda or Plo Koon, shows how much of a reputation he has.

Next up: Bound for Rescue. Logically the younglings should report Ahsoka's capture to the Temple who would send a rescue team (likely Anakin, Rex and Obi-wan again), but I bet they're going to try to rescue her themselves (and that no mention will be made of the two pirates locked in the training room).

[Grim Portent]

makes me wonder why Yoda couldn't come along, though, he was on Ilum).

Hit up the Ilum dance scene, he must. Gotten his groove on for 300 years, he has not.

[Mechalich]

Still one has to wonder if that's not the kind of things that would stifle creativity and innovation.When do you think was the last time a Jedi looked at a lightsaber and thought "could we improve on this design"?

A lightsaber is actually (especially in Disney canon) fairly simplistic mechanically. It's basically the crystal, a power cell, the emitter matrix/shroud (the bit on top that produces the blade shape), the crystal, and the on/off switch. Everything else is either a luxury modification to make it do something special (such as adding multiple crystals to produce a variable blade length) or is almost entirely cosmetic.

The Jedi can't change the crystals (because reasons). There do seem to be matrix/shroud variants that change things like the width or transparency of the blade (for example, the blades in Rebels are thinner), but this doesn't appear to make much difference, in part because a lightsaber is so massively overkill against almost anything you'd attack with it, a single-digit percentage change in efficacy doesn't make much difference. The Jedi did upgrade the power cells used in lightsabers over time as power cell technology advanced, but since Star Wars technologies advance very slowly, it's probably been thousands of years since the last major compact power cell upgrade.

[Kornaki]

A lightsaber is actually (especially in Disney canon) fairly simplistic mechanically. It's basically the crysta power cell, the emitter matrix/shroud (the bit on top that produces the blade shape), the crystal, and the on/off switch. Everything else is either a luxury modification to make it do something special (such as adding multiple crystals to produce a variable blade length) or is almost entirely cosmetic.

Just off the top of my head, different shapes (why not make a shield?), an auto off switch if you're about to stab yourself, a GPS tracker so if you lose it you can find it.

[Mechalich]

Just off the top of my head, different shapes (why not make a shield?), an auto off switch if you're about to stab yourself, a GPS tracker so if you lose it you can find it.

An auto-off switch (which most lightsabers have, since they deactivate when dropped) or an embedded tracking device are accessories, not anything integrated into the main tech of the lightsaber itself. There are all kinds of possible accessories to a lightsaber, and they might make for a better product overall, but they aren't really a design adjustment.

In any case, what Huyang is doing isn't really engineering anyway. The central components of the lightsaber are fixed. He's acting more like a jewelry consultant, guiding the younglings in building the setting for their magical jewels in a way that maximizes their personal resonance.

[Fyraltari]

Hit up the Ilum dance scene, he must. Gotten his groove on for 300 years, he has not.

Ilum is surprisingly lively for a frozen rock this time of year.

There are all kinds of possible accessories to a lightsaber, and they might make for a better product overall, but they aren't really a design adjustment.

That does sound like a design ajustment to me. Like throughout the franchise we see lightsabers with two blades, with a crossguard, with variable blade-length, that can do the helicopter for some reason, that can collapse into a blaster, etc. All of these in the hands of people operating outside the Jedi Order.

I just think that if, instead of a single immortal professor showing every single Jedi the correct way to make a lightsaber when they are literal children, there had been a line of Jedi Masters (or several) passing down the knowledge and responsability every generation, there would have been more opportunity for "the correct way" to be questionned and more diverse designs to emerge.