Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Fyraltari]

Alright, could you tell I've been putting off doing this one?

Season 5, Episode 11: A sunny day in the void

Spoiler: Recap

Show

Our motley crew is on its way back to Coruscant and also repairing BZ, who fell on the field last time. Gascon wants them to do the repairs fast because they must get the encryption module to the Republic as soon as possible. Don't really see how BZ's repairs have any effect on that, but whatever. Also, if they're in a rush, why go to Coruscant and not meet up with one of the fleets? There's bound to be one closer to ennemy territory than the capital, and since you have the encryption key, you shouldn't need rare equipment to translate the message you've intercepted. Anyway, WAC leaves the cockpit to tell them there are comets flying right at them (in hyperspace!?) maing a bad "good news, bad news" joke. Also the presence of comets turn hyperspace red for some reason, even the big space monster in Solo couldn't pull that one off.

Gascon takes them out of hyperspace and it turns out that there is a seemingly nigh-infinite amount of comets in all directions very packed together. They hit a few, damaging the ship. The astromechs get the auxiliary power back on, but the engines are busted until the 'mechs get them temporarily back, which just allows the shuttle to crash into more comets. One mech is thrown off the ship and the others form a line of grappling one another to get him back on. This is a pretty clear example of there being air resistance in space in Star Wars, but I guess that's consistent with the ships only moving when their reactors are ablaze. Ultimately WAC decides to crash-land on a conveniently nearby planet without knowing anything about it and they make planetfall on what appears ti be a plain made of ice (or maybe solid salt?).

Gascon blames the droids for this and consults the database on this place "Name: Abathon. Information on planet: Void." Well, I guess "Mostly harmless" doesn't seem so bad, now. The colonel wants to stay put in the wreck but R2 leaves in the desert babbling on having to finish the mission, ANH style. And he's got the encryption module. The droids follow him and eventually Gascon too, once WAC says maybe they'll give HIM a medal for bringing the key back when Gascon didn't. Some time later, Gascon complains about being lost in the desert when he was this close to completing his first mission. WAC tries to cheer him up by pointing out how sunny it is, but Gascon doesn't see any sun. Indeed the whole sky appears to be orange, which makes me wonder about the atmosphere and what Gascon is breathing right now. This however, makes him wonder how they know where they're going. R2 says he's set his navigation to straight, which alarms the colonel. I don't really see why, they don't know where they are, so any direction is as good as any, and the biggest risk in walking without bearings is too accidentally go in circles, so this should be (somewhat) reassuring.

Gascon decides they can't rely on a droid's programming and will instead use his training. According to him, droids not having any training is his weakness. WAC prods him a bit until he admits that his training was drilled into him by his superiors, which WAC considers the same as being programmed. Gascon takes offense at being compared to droids. And he notices that they haven't left any tracks to use to go back to the ship like he wants (couldn't R2 just do a 180° on the bearing he was following?) WAC noticed earlier but didn't think it was important since they wouldn't go backward. Gascon insists he, as just a pilot, leaves the thinking to him, the commanding officer. WAC decides this is an opportune moment to point out his programming keeps him focused on the mission and not things like "his health", so when Gascon dies, he should be the new leader. This is the last straw for the colonel who rants that WAC is killing him and all he wants at this point is to be left to die with some dignity. Great, I am watching a frogman's mental breakdown. Add that to the list of things I didn't think I'd ever write or say.

Anyway, R2 spots a wreck in the distance. Gascon is overjoyed to be back until it becomes clear it's a completely different ship with a skeleton and a few ruined astromechs inside, which the droids take as proof that one shouldn't stay in the ship. Gascon climbs to the top of the wreckage, which WAC takes as a sign of him being suicidal and votes for himself as new leader, insisting the others can't vote for R2, since as a mech he can't lead the mission. Hilarious. Of course, Gascon was just trying to spot something they could head to, and start imploring the skies to give him a sign*. The droids have no idea who he's talking to. I guess the Church of the Maker hasn't converted them yet. I wonder if 3PO goes knocking on doors when he has time. Gascon does spot a village though and runs toward it. followed by the team.

However, he's the only one who can see the outpost and it fades away as he reaches it. This isn't how mirages work by the way, they're not hallucinations but purely physical illusions, caused by heated air on the ground refracting light, making you see an image of the clear blue sky on the ground far away, looking regrettably like body of water. Gascon finds something on the ground though. The empty canteen he discarded earlier. He loses it and start dancing and laughing maniacally. WAC agrees with the others they can't trust his training any longer, but he refuses to trust them unless they pick him as new leader. The astromechs just leave, calling him "just a pilot".

Alon with Gascon, WAC asks if he has any idea. Gascon's current working theory is that he died in the crash and is now in Limbo*. "Yeah, I should have gone with the mechs." Gascon thinks life has no answer but death, and hope is an illusion. WAC says giving up isn't in his programming and he's surprised that it is in Gascon's. the colonel realizes that he's been trained to always find a rational solution, but there none to this void, so he needs to change his approach and his programming-training. Reinvigorated, he says WAC is more than just a pilot. WAC's joy is cut short by a sudden stampede of white-and-orange featherless and wingless ostruches? Gascon says that this is their way out: rather than follow his training or WAC's programming, they should follow the animals' instinct. They each grab hold of a beast and let themselves be carried with surprisingly little protestations I mean, that's a pretty rational solution if you ask me, but whatever.

Soon enough, Gascon spots a town again, and this time WAC can see it too. The town is dug inside the salt (?) near a lake, which is of course, the real point of interest for the birds. As they approach, Gascon and WAC notice the mechs already exploring the place. Gascon orders corporal WAC to gather the squad while he goes to have a drink at the lake. WAC wastes no time in lording his newfound superiority over the others. End of the episode.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

Does that mean WAC could order Fives around if they ever meet?
This episode tries to have something insightful to say (it hasn't) about training, programming, nature, rationnality and instinct but also decides that R2 is awesome enough to make all that moot, so I guess the real lesson is "people should always just listen to R2"?

*Kind of makes you wonder about religion in the Galaxy Far Far Away.

Next up: Missing in Action. I'm guessing more of this squad looking for a ship. Yeepee.

[Kantaki]

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

This episode tries to have something insightful to say (it hasn't) about training, programming, nature, rationnality and instinct but also decides that R2 is awesome enough to make all that moot, so I guess the real lesson is "people should always just listen to R2"?

Great. Now I'm imagining R2 beeping the "Ivanova is god" speech from Babylon 5.

[McNum]

Alright, could you tell I've been putting off doing this one?

I just want to wish you good luck, we're all counting on you.

Yeah. A Sunny Day in the Void is, in my opinion, the single worst episode of Clone Wars across all seasons. It has few redeeming qualities and Gascon is so intensely unlikable that even R2 can't make up for it.

I was a little worried that this episode might have stalled you out. Once the droid arc is over, you'll be in clear skies all the way to the end, though.

[Taevyr]

I'll second that: the droids arc's a slog, but after that one the quality tends to be excellent.

[Keltest]

I'll second that: the droids arc's a slog, but after that one the quality tends to be excellent.

Indeed. The only remotely likeable characters in it are the ones who cant speak. Its never good when youre left with the sensation that the entire group would be better off without the characters youre supposed to be sympathetic to.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah. A Sunny Day in the Void is, in my opinion, the single worst episode of Clone Wars across all seasons. It has few redeeming qualities and Gascon is so intensely unlikable that even R2 can't make up for it.

Honestly, it isn't that bad. If it were in season 1, it wouldn't be that remarkable.

It isn't good though.

I was a little worried that this episode might have stalled you out. Once the droid arc is over, you'll be in clear skies all the way to the end, though.

Well this last month I had to finish a paper I was very late for to complete my academic year, then, finding myself in actual holidays for the first time in around 5 years I went to the mountains for a week and spent another week imitating the marmot's proverbial fondness for sleep.

So it wasn't just the episode.

[Peelee]

Honestly, it isn't that bad. [snip]

It isn't good though.

This sums up my feelings towards TCW as a whole pretty perfectly.

[Fyraltari]

This sums up my feelings towards TCW as a whole pretty perfectly.

I disagree, I'd say the show averages rather good, but it has very inconsistent quality.

[Peelee]

I disagree, I'd say the show averages rather good, but it has very inconsistent quality.

Eh. The villains tend towards incompetent more often than not, and when the main thrust of the show is about a war, villains that actually have presence and some semblance of competence is pretty necessary. Especially when the show to be sustained over seven seasons.

Which isn't to say it's not enjoyable to watch. It's just not terribly good on average.

[Grim Portent]

The villains being more threatening would have been a big boost for the show. Few more significant deaths or injuries would have added a lot to the villains, and villains are usually what makes a show interesting on a base level.

Actually suprised they never had Ahsoka lose a limb come to think of it, tie her into the tradition of Star Wars protags losing hands.

[Mechalich]

The villains being more threatening would have been a big boost for the show. Few more significant deaths or injuries would have added a lot to the villains, and villains are usually what makes a show interesting on a base level.

One of the things about TCW is that is occupies a somewhat nebulous space between age brackets and its quite clear, watching it, that a number of the various writers and directors struggled to figure out 'how much can we get away with.' There's a clear contrast with Rebels, which knew it was solidly a kid's show and couldn't get away with basically anything but brought out the full bag of kid's show tricks to deal with the issue.

There's also the problem that the legacy villains they were handled were mostly bad and came with the caveat that they couldn't actually be beaten. The show did try to establish its own villains, whether by borrowing them from the EU, ex. Ventress, or by creating wholly new ones, ex. Cad Bane, but that was both a slow process and I think Filoni and co. had soft spots for interesting characters are struggled to make their faves truly forces of unredeemable evil. Ventress' arc is very clear on this point, but several other nominal villains are shown with a surprising amount of sympathy. Other Filoni works seem to have this problem too. Rebels struggles to find a big bad with any real menace until it borrows someone else's in Grand Admiral Thrawn, which makes a huge difference, and the live action series seem to rely on he actors to find the villain within themselves rather than the overarching plot.

And, of course, because this is a Clone Wars show there's also the issue that the true villain is the one who gives the heroes their orders. I think the show generally handles Palpatine well, and the one time Sidious does get to cut lose he absolutely shreds the threat meter, but he obviously can't be used again Anakin, Obi-Wan or Ahsoka directly.

[Fyraltari]

I think this was a great opportunity to flesh out the Separatist Council, who could easily have had a various level of threat.

I will not forgive what the show did to Grievous, though.

[Mechalich]

I think this was a great opportunity to flesh out the Separatist Council, who could easily have had a various level of threat.

The problem is their a bunch of administrators and politicians, and the show is extremely militarized. Wat Tambor, the head of the Techno Union, does get used as the villain in the Bad Batch Arc, and it's not really a success.

I think the show needed more Separatist officers like Trench. The spider admiral does pretty good in the arcs he's in, though I suspect his extremely complex character design made him expensive to use. There's a couple of other Separatist officers and even the occasional tactical droid, like Kalani in the Onderon arc, who show up and elevate things to varying degrees, but too often the Separatist forces seem to lack any sort of command and control counterpart to characters like Yularen or the various Clone commanders who make the GAR seem much more coherent and carry scale.

The Separatists also really needed a better special forces unit. Too often the various main villains are forced to fight the Jedi themselves - one of the reasons show Grievous is such a mess - or have to send in faceless droids. Even though commando droids, magnaguards, or IG units can challenge Jedi in battle they are largely silent mechanisms simply there to be slaughtered. The show does try, repeatedly, to introduce various groups of high-power recurring antagonists, and while some like Cad Bane turned out to be pretty good characters, it never quite worked. Part of the problem here was that Anakin and Obi-Wan (and by extension Ahsoka, eventually) and too powerful and anyone built up to challenge them can fairly easily shred other Jedi, including masters, something the show is willing to make clear starting with the very early episode (S1E9) where Ventress defeats Luminara Unduli.

This is actually a consistent problem throughout Star Wars EU media, in both continuities. Movie characters get elevated as BDHs and therefore challenging them means introducing new characters who are either unreasonably awesome or not actually a threat. Various Death Vader comics runs, notably, often let him just obliterate anyone idiotic enough to actually challenge him. However, I've come to the opinion that Star Wars actually works best when it steps down a tier and operates closer to the street level version of itself. One of the best examples is actually Dr. Aphra, who was introduced in the Vader comics as a facilitator character, a sort of Q-type who could get Vader stuff he needed, but her power level was actually much more suited to being a protagonist and her comic line is the best thing in the Disney cannon. In comparison to TCW, Rebels also works this way. The crew of the Ghost are heroes all, but they aren't Anakin-level heroes, and when an Anakin-level villain in Thrawn finally shows up its absolutely clear how outclassed they are and how the big sacrifices the crew has to make to save the day are necessary and therefore earned. Even within TCW itself the clones themselves, when they get an arc of their own, operate this way and that's why many of the clone-focused plots are some of the show's best.

Circling back to the current episodes I think the droid arc is an attempt to do this - give lower-power characters an adventure of their own - but it just happens to be one that mostly fails, because Gascon is awful and Lucas was and is massively in the tank for R2-D2 for some reason.

[Fyraltari]

The problem is their a bunch of administrators and politicians, and the show is extremely militarized. Wat Tambor, the head of the Techno Union, does get used as the villain in the Bad Batch Arc, and it's not really a success.

He was the main villain of the Ryloth Arc and that was a pretty good arc (granted he gets outshone by the Neimodian captain). Poggle also has a fairly important role in the Geonosis arc.
But really, I don't think them not being military leaders would have been that much of a problem. The Jedi aren't supposed to be military, either.
You could easily have them oversee large operations or mastermind specific plots. My point is that relying on just Grievous and Ventress (eventually just Grievous) and a few one-shots was a mistake, having a recurring group of villains that interacted with each other would have been a better call, I think.

I think the show needed more Separatist officers like Trench. The spider admiral does pretty good in the arcs he's in, though I suspect his extremely complex character design made him expensive to use. There's a couple of other Separatist officers and even the occasional tactical droid, like Kalani in the Onderon arc, who show up and elevate things to varying degrees, but too often the Separatist forces seem to lack any sort of command and control counterpart to characters like Yularen or the various Clone commanders who make the GAR seem much more coherent and carry scale.

So far Trench and Kalani haven't really done anything noteworthy. Well, Trench did die, but I'm told he comes back.

The Separatists also really needed a better special forces unit. Too often the various main villains are forced to fight the Jedi themselves - one of the reasons show Grievous is such a mess - or have to send in faceless droids. Even though commando droids, magnaguards, or IG units can challenge Jedi in battle they are largely silent mechanisms simply there to be slaughtered. The show does try, repeatedly, to introduce various groups of high-power recurring antagonists, and while some like Cad Bane turned out to be pretty good characters, it never quite worked. Part of the problem here was that Anakin and Obi-Wan (and by extension Ahsoka, eventually) and too powerful and anyone built up to challenge them can fairly easily shred other Jedi, including masters, something the show is willing to make clear starting with the very early episode (S1E9) where Ventress defeats Luminara Unduli.

Agreed, but I think this problem also comes down to how inconsistent the threat posed by say, a squad of B2 or commando-droids, is from an episode to the next.

This is actually a consistent problem throughout Star Wars EU media, in both continuities. Movie characters get elevated as BDHs and therefore challenging them means introducing new characters who are either unreasonably awesome or not actually a threat.

"BDH"?

[Aeson]

"BDH"?

Big Damn Heroes.

[Keltest]

The Jedi aren't supposed to be military, either.

Jedi are knights. They run around with laser swords. They may or may not have been founded with the intent of being part of the formal chain of command for the Republic, but they are very much a militant order, no matter how much they might try and convince you they would rather not be.

[dancrilis]

I think the show generally handles Palpatine well, and the one time Sidious does get to cut lose he absolutely shreds the threat meter, but he obviously can't be used again Anakin, Obi-Wan or Ahsoka directly.

Spoiler: Well...

Show

... he could have been used against Ahsoka if they wanted a particularly dark episode after she leaves the order but is still something that Anakin uses to cling to the light, an episode after she leaves the order and tries to convince Anakin to leave the Order also as they are not who they should be and that he could so more good supporting his wife in her political career - only for Sidious to murder her could have worked very well.

[McNum]

Eh. The villains tend towards incompetent more often than not, and when the main thrust of the show is about a war, villains that actually have presence and some semblance of competence is pretty necessary. Especially when the show to be sustained over seven seasons.

Which isn't to say it's not enjoyable to watch. It's just not terribly good on average.

I will agree that when Clone Wars is at its worst, it goes really low. But when its at its best, and that is yet to come in this thread, it's some of the best Star Wars there is. Not going to elaborate until this thread reaches the end of the series, though.

Which, good news, is closer than you'd think since the seasons after this one are shorter than the others.

[Peelee]

But when its at its best, and that is yet to come in this thread, it's some of the best Star Wars there is.

I cannot disagree with this enough. At its best, it was really good. But nowhere near Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, The Mandalorian, Andor, or Rogue One.

And that's ignoring that "it's best" was pretty infrequent. You have about as much of the best of Clone Wars as you have of Ziro the Hutt, for example.

[Jasdoif]

Eh. The villains tend towards incompetent more often than not, and when the main thrust of the show is about a war, villains that actually have presence and some semblance of competence is pretty necessary. Especially when the show to be sustained over seven seasons.

Which isn't to say it's not enjoyable to watch. It's just not terribly good on average.

Regardless of what the main thrust of the show was supposed to be, I think it's clear that the characterization of the tritagonists(?) is the show's real strength. The best moments/episodes of the show are when the Clone Wars simply explain why they're heading into the situations they're heading into and then fade into the background, and especially those situations where simple fighting prowess won't accomplish their goals and they need to display or develop their less overt skills and traits.

The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom. From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential. Sure, that's very easy for me to say when I had nothing to do with the whole thing; but at the same time it would explain quite a lot if e.g. all the droid-centric arcs were written not because the writers thought there was a story worth telling, but because George Lucas insisted that was the kind of story they needed to tell.

[Mechalich]

And that's ignoring that "it's best" was pretty infrequent. You have about as much of the best of Clone Wars as you have of Ziro the Hutt, for example.

That's an overly harsh reading. Ziro's appears in four episodes and the animated film. There are 133 episodes total (plus the film). Pretty sure I can find a whole lot more than six or so to over balance Ziro, especially given that the final 4 episodes all ping 'great' on the quality meter.

I'd say about half of TCW material falls in the good to great range. Most of the rest is simply mediocre, but there are some trashy episodes and arcs mixed in for sure. By the standards of the Star Wars Expanded Universe that's a phenomenal record. If one randomly picked 133 Star Wars novels, or comic runs (and there are more than enough to do so) the ratio would be significantly worse almost every time. And I fully expect that, by the time we reach 133 live action episodes they'll be lucky to do as well as TCW too (though of course I hope they do better).

[Peelee]

That's an overly harsh reading. Ziro's appears in four episodes and the animated film. There are 133 episodes total (plus the film). Pretty sure I can find a whole lot more than six or so to over balance Ziro, especially given that the final 4 episodes all ping 'great' on the quality meter.

I'd say about half of TCW material falls in the good to great range. Most of the rest is simply mediocre, but there are some trashy episodes and arcs mixed in for sure. By the standards of the Star Wars Expanded Universe that's a phenomenal record. If one randomly picked 133 Star Wars novels, or comic runs (and there are more than enough to do so) the ratio would be significantly worse almost every time. And I fully expect that, by the time we reach 133 live action episodes they'll be lucky to do as well as TCW too (though of course I hope they do better).

Or I have a different idea than you do about what "the best of TCW" constitutes.

Also, I'm not sure what pulling out the quality of Legends novels
Has to do with anything. We're not talking about Legends, we're talking about TCW. But if you want to compare, then I'd say they have about the same ratio of good to crap.

[Fyraltari]

Or I have a different idea than you do about what "the best of TCW" constitutes.

Also, I'm not sure what pulling out the quality of Legends novels
Has to do with anything. We're not talking about Legends, we're talking about TCW. But if you want to compare, then I'd say they have about the same ratio of good to crap.

Nobody dislikes Star Wars quite like a Star Wars fan, and you are the biggest* one I know.

*Except maybe, Hamishpence.

[Taevyr]

I think we also need to consider that, as the last seasons of TCW are absolutely the best, hindsight may be biased as to how good the whole is. Not to mention, nostalgia for those of us who watched it in their early teens or the like.

I do agree that there are a few arcs, and most in the last two seasons, that are among the best of star wars. The final four episodes in particular are marvelous and essentially a movie on their own, and would count as one of the better SW movies in my book if we take it as one.

[Fyraltari]

Which, good news, is closer than you'd think since the seasons after this one are shorter than the others.

This season is already shorter than the others (20 episodes instead of 22), then it just gets shorter and shorter (13 episodes and finally 12).

[Peelee]

Nobody dislikes Star Wars quite like a Star Wars fan, and you are the biggest* one I know.

*Except maybe, Hamishpence.

Well, yeah, it only makes sense. 90% of everything Star Wars is crap and Star Wars fans are the ones reading and watching most of it.

[Mechalich]

I think we also need to consider that, as the last seasons of TCW are absolutely the best, hindsight may be biased as to how good the whole is. Not to mention, nostalgia for those of us who watched it in their early teens or the like.

That's possible, the show did improve a lot as it went. I'd add that it's also difficult to separate the series from its influence. Bad Batch is a straight-up sequel series. Rebels borrows TCW most important original characters (Ahsoka and Rex) very heavily, as well as utilizing its style and many of the approaches it pioneered. Mandalorian is utterly dependent upon a through line of TCW-Rebels-Mandalorian to develop the Mandalorian culture that is central to the show, and also borrows characters like Ahsoka and Bo-Katan yet again. Even Book of Boba Fett borrows things like the Pykes.

TCW was essentially the last major Legends property (technically its SWTOR, but the boundaries of era made that less influential), and Filoni took basically everything substantial in Legends he had any interest in and put it into the show. And because the Sequel trilogy was utterly bereft in the world-building department, it was TCW, not the ST, that served as the primary foundation for everything else going forward. That's why people talk about the 'Filoniverse' now.

[Peelee]

That's possible, the show did improve a lot as it went. I'd add that it's also difficult to separate the series from its influence. Bad Batch is a straight-up sequel series. Rebels borrows TCW most important original characters (Ahsoka and Rex) very heavily, as well as utilizing its style and many of the approaches it pioneered. Mandalorian is utterly dependent upon a through line of TCW-Rebels-Mandalorian to develop the Mandalorian culture that is central to the show, and also borrows characters like Ahsoka and Bo-Katan yet again. Even Book of Boba Fett borrows things like the Pykes.

I wouldn't say Ahsoka and Rex were "very heavily" borrowed in Rebels. They're side characters, not part of the main cast. Mandalorian being "utterly dependent" on those shows to develop Mandalorian culture is simply wrong, and ignores virtually all Mandalorian culture building in other properties (partly books, mostly KOTOR). The Mando culture was already built before TCW ever came out, and TCW, if anything, went in the opposite direction of Mando culture, which The Mandalorian largely ignores.

The show introduced plenty of characters that are still used, sure, but I think you're embellishing it's influence on Star Wars overall here.

[dancrilis]

At its best, it was really good. But nowhere near Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, The Mandalorian, Andor, or Rogue One.

I think you have a more favourable view of The Mandalorian, Andor and Rogue One then I have, but then I don't have much time for The Mandalorian and Rogue One (fine but nothing special).

Andor is so far better then either but will have to see if it sticks the landing - but the best of TCW to memory might be near the end of season 5 (episodes 14-20), so will see what Fyraltari makes of them soon(ish), and would don't that Andor is going to be as memorable as those.

Of course Star Wars and Empire stand above - with Star Wars standing apart as a masterpiece.

[Fyraltari]

the best of TCW to memory might be near the end of season 5 (episodes 14-20)

Do you include seasons 6 and 7 in that assesment?

Because I am under the impression that some of you only watched the original run.