Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Sapphire Guard]

TCW is ultimately a kids show, and so occasionally has the odd lighthearted and silly arc. It's about as hit and miss as Mando, and has the same storytelling style of 'make ALL THE REFERENCES, at the expense of the story if necessary.

Andor I think is too early to judge yet.

The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom. From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential.

That's a curious reading, because in interview you linked Dave is asked that very question and says 'not particularly.' Per that interview, George has a veto and the basic concepts, and then leaves them to work.

[dancrilis]

Do you include seasons 6 and 7 in that assesment?

I do - the beginning of Season 6 (1-4) deserves to be mentioned along along with the end of Season 5 in my view now that you mention it providing you are willing to overlook that the central premise didn't really need to be introduced and does then somewhat dominate more subsequent stories at the time I was not willing to overlook this inclusion but I have become more at ease with it (though it does annoy me at times), but the rest is largely nothing special.

Season 7 would say is good in the last 4 episodes but the other two arcs in it are fairly 'meh' in my view.

So hopefully once you get through the the current arc you will find the following dozen episodes fairly enjoyable - time will tell.

[pendell]

I wouldn't say Ahsoka and Rex were "very heavily" borrowed in Rebels. They're side characters, not part of the main cast. Mandalorian being "utterly dependent" on those shows to develop Mandalorian culture is simply wrong, and ignores virtually all Mandalorian culture building in other properties (partly books, mostly KOTOR). The Mando culture was already built before TCW ever came out, and TCW, if anything, went in the opposite direction of Mando culture, which The Mandalorian largely ignores.

The show introduced plenty of characters that are still used, sure, but I think you're embellishing it's influence on Star Wars overall here.

WITH respect to the parts of TCW the Mandolorian ignores, do you mean the "pacifist Mandalorian" arc?

There's a certain irony there. Karen Travis quit the Star Wars universe over the changes Lucas made to her story, but if she'd stuck it out those changes would be reverted as well. Stuff that's good in Legends tends to stick around while the terrible ideas tend to go off into limbo and never be mentioned again.

I guess Travis left for other projects, but for the life of me I don't recall her being known for anything else than inventing the Mando culture which showed up both in KOTOR and Knights of the Old Republic.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

I do - the beginning of Season 6 (1-4) deserves to be mentioned along along with the end of Season 5 in my view now that you mention it providing you are willing to overlook that the central premise didn't really need to be introduced and does then somewhat dominate more subsequent stories at the time I was not willing to overlook this inclusion but I have become more at ease with it (though it does annoy me at times), but the rest is largely nothing special.

Season 7 would say is good in the last 4 episodes but the other two arcs in it are fairly 'meh' in my view.

So hopefully once you get through the the current arc you will find the following dozen episodes fairly enjoyable - time will tell.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

I guess Travis left for other projects, but for the life of me I don't recall her being known for anything else than inventing the Mando culture which showed up both in KOTOR and Knights of the Old Republic.

KotOR and KotOR?
Apparently she's worked on Halo and Gears of War.

[Peelee]

WITH respect to the parts of TCW the Mandolorian ignores, do you mean the "pacifist Mandalorian" arc?

There's a certain irony there. Karen Travis quit the Star Wars universe over the changes Lucas made to her story, but if she'd stuck it out those changes would be reverted as well. Stuff that's good in Legends tends to stick around while the terrible ideas tend to go off into limbo and never be mentioned again.

I guess Travis left for other projects, but for the life of me I don't recall her being known for anything else than inventing the Mando culture which showed up both in KOTOR and Knights of the Old Republic.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

A.) what part of Mandalorian culture did TCW even have except for the vast majority going pacifistic and also the darksaber, which is pretty much just a reskinned helmet of Mandalore for all its cultural significance?
2.) I would be wary about claims that Karen Travis's Mando culture showing up in KOTOR, since KOTOR was released in 03 and her first republic commando book was released in 04. She was building off that, not the other way around.

ETA: I thought most of her Mando stuff was around Republic Commando and LotF with Jaina but apparently she didn't do any LotF books and was in NJO series, which I hated. But yeah, those timelines are roughly concurrent with KOTOR.

I think you have a more favourable view of The Mandalorian, Andor and Rogue One then I have, but then I don't have much time for The Mandalorian and Rogue One (fine but nothing special).

For what it's worth, I didn't intend to put all of those on the same level, but I see how it easily comes as such. But they'r all still far better than TCW. So is Rebels, even with the ridiculous censorship requiring Ezra use a laser slingshot.

[Fyraltari]

I think the main advantage Rebels has over TCW is its more focused narrative. We follow the same crew, initially in the same place every episode, whereas TCW tried to be an anthology show but also to have an overarching plot.

That and most characters in Rebels were new so they had room to grow instead of having to awkwardly fit in-between two chapters of their already told story.

Edit: So, points to Filoni and his team for learning from their mistakes.

[Jasdoif]

The show would have been a lot better had it stayed away from the front lines (literal or otherwise) more often, but I kind of feel like that's more of a symptom. From some of the stuff I've read, I get the impression that the writers didn't have enough autonomy to consistently reach their full potential.

That's a curious reading, because in interview you linked Dave is asked that very question and says 'not particularly.' Per that interview, George has a veto and the basic concepts, and then leaves them to work.

At the same time....

George really got on a bend of having an episode about the droids, an episode about the Jedi, an episode about politics. And when I say episode, I mean arc. And he kind of liked to hit those different themes every season. Because of the number of stories we tell — we actually do 26 a season, we write more than we actually air — that’s why some ideas, you don’t see.

So even after each seasons' set of stories is trimmed down for episodes to move into producing, nearly every season has a droid episode/arc and a political episode/arc, which frequently include the worst episodes in the season...and which were written in the first place because they were presumably favored among George Lucas' basic concepts.

[Peelee]

I think the main advantage Rebels has over TCW is its more focused narrative. We follow the same crew, initially in the same place every episode, whereas TCW tried to be an anthology show but also to have an overarching plot.

That and most characters in Rebels were new so they had room to grow instead of having to awkwardly fit in-between two chapters of their already told story.

Edit: So, points to Filoni and his team for learning from their mistakes.

Rebels was made after George Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney.

Not saying anything in particular about that, just noting the timeline.

[Keltest]

Rebels was made after George Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney.

Not saying anything in particular about that, just noting the timeline.

If you aren't saying anything in particular, then I'm not sure what it has to do with anything in particular?

[Mechalich]

At the same time....So even after each seasons' set of stories is trimmed down for episodes to move into producing, nearly every season has a droid episode/arc and a political episode/arc, which frequently include the worst episodes in the season...and which were written in the first place because they were presumably favored among George Lucas' basic concepts.

While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.

[dancrilis]

If you aren't saying anything in particular, then I'm not sure what it has to do with anything in particular?

An observation doesn't need to be anything more then an observation.

This particular observation does raise a possible interesting point - namely that Star Wars under George Lucas was somewhat disjointed for better or worse, where under Disney is it more streamlined for better or worse.

[Keltest]

While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.

The big problem with Padme as a political character is that what she wants, while noble on the surface, is kind of ridiculous in the context of what the Clone Wars are. A peaceful resolution pretty unilaterally means either the Republic or the CIS surrenders outright, because that's the nature of the war. The CIS member systems aren't going to re-integrate into the Republic voluntarily, that's why they went to war in the first place. And likewise the Republic won't recognize the legitimacy of their secession because that's what they're fighting over.

And since the Jedi are involved because they know the CIS is a Sith puppet state, and we the audience know that, she just looks silly to us.

[Peelee]

While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.

Catherine Taber had much better material to work with than Natalie Portman ever did (in Star Wars), so that's hardly surprising.

[Fyraltari]

The big problem with Padme as a political character is that what she wants, while noble on the surface, is kind of ridiculous in the context of what the Clone Wars are. A peaceful resolution pretty unilaterally means either the Republic or the CIS surrenders outright, because that's the nature of the war. The CIS member systems aren't going to re-integrate into the Republic voluntarily, that's why they went to war in the first place. And likewise the Republic won't recognize the legitimacy of their secession because that's what they're fighting over.

Presumably, the Separatists separated for a reason. It only seems logical to assume that Padmé's angle is to get them to reintegrate into the Republic (at least partially) in exchange for adressing the issues they seceded over in the first place.

Edit: of course we know her efforts are doomed because the war is a sham, but she doesn't.

[Mechalich]

The bigger problem that Padme has is that 'restoring the Republic' isn't really a good goal. The PT-Era Republic calls itself a democracy, but it's actually a de facto oligarchy, run by the nobles of the Core. Bail Organa, somewhat ironically, is the perfect example of this; Alderaan is blessed with a permanent Senate seat despite its puny population of 2 billion (there are sectors with trillions of sapient beings that only get one seat) run be a hereditary royal family. The CIS, meanwhile, is also a de facto oligarchy run by nobles and corporate executives from the Rim, who having become fantastically wealthy over one thousand years of peace want all the perks and power they believe is their due but the Republic's ancient structures lock out of their grasp.

Average citizens on both sides are screwed and neither the Republic nor CIS really has much to offer them, something that TCW, to its credit, shows. Padme's attempts to stop the war basically involve trying to find a way to cut the CIS in on a corrupt and failing status quo. That's a weak sauce option that while it does stop the violence fails to take advantage of the crisis or offer any real hope to avoid future conflicts a short ways down the road. Palpatine is in many ways a classic strong man, he successfully identifies a problem (in this case one whose scope he has deliberately magnified) and then screams 'only I can fix it' as loud and as long as possible. In doing so he traps his opponents into defending a broken system, unable or unwilling to offer real reform-based solutions.

Partly this is a problem throughout Star Wars that has to do with how it was released over time. The OT, set at the height of Imperial power, naturally makes the Republic appear idyllic through a mixture of comparison and nostalgia, and the Legends EU, lacking any concrete information about what the Republic might have been like, rolled with that assumption and focused the Rebellion, post-RotJ, on founding a New Republic just like the last one. When the PT came out, this led to a huge course correction, with the post-RotJ EU actually dumping the Republic entirely (though in practice little changed) and various Old Republic Era titles not hesitating to portray the Republic as messy, corrupt, and periodically on the verge of collapse. The franchise as a whole has really struggled to offer any sort of portrayal of effective government (outside of provisional regimes still functioning more or less on martial law) or even a wide range. There's basically autocratic tyranny (various Empires), corrupt oligarchy (most iterations of the Republic), and criminal plutocracy (Hutts and such).

[Sapphire Guard]

At the same time....So even after each seasons' set of stories is trimmed down for episodes to move into producing, nearly every season has a droid episode/arc and a political episode/arc, which frequently include the worst episodes in the season...and which were written in the first place because they were presumably favored among George Lucas' basic concepts.

If your boss tells you to write a story about robots, and you write a bad story about robots, who's fault is that?

I don't think any 'learning from mistakes' was done, they're just different shows. Rebels isn't a superior product particularly, it's just telling a smaller, easier story, occasional propped up with pointless cameos.

[dancrilis]

Presumably, the Separatists separated for a reason.

I tried reading the Darth Plagueis novel a few years ago but it didn't capture me so gave up about a chapter in, I actually did read it this week (not sure what put me off last time after reading it now), in that it effectively details the foundation of the Separatists movement.

Basically the worlds of the Separatists movement were not free worlds and were instead controlled by the Trade Federation (and others), and these worlds were only ever in the Republic due to the Trade Federation (and others) bribing Senators to let them in - so the seperatist movement worlds were not actually interested in seperating (or joining in the first place for that matter) they were controlled by external interests and ultimately The Sith.

Now you might think they don't want to be their and shouldn't have been there in the first place - let them go. The problem with that is that the Trade Federation had contracts with these worlds prior to any republic involvement (and prior to the Trade Federation having a seat on the senate - which they got from you guessed it corruption).

So those republic worlds were effectively being pulled out of the Republic against their will (in some cases), Naboo did have senate representation prior to the Trade Federation but it is very close to the above - the blockade was largely legal as Naboo was effectively in breach of contract (the invasion is much more iffy).

[Keltest]

I tried reading the Darth Plagueis novel a few years ago but it didn't capture me so gave up about a chapter in, I actually did read it this week (not sure what put me off last time after reading it now), in that it effectively details the foundation of the Separatists movement.

Basically the worlds of the Separatists movement were not free worlds and were instead controlled by the Trade Federation (and others), and these worlds were only ever in the Republic due to the Trade Federation (and others) bribing Senators to let them in - so the seperatist movement worlds were not actually interested in seperating (or joining in the first place for that matter) they were controlled by external interests and ultimately The Sith.

Now you might think they don't want to be their and shouldn't have been there in the first place - let them go. The problem with that is that the Trade Federation had contracts with these worlds prior to any republic involvement (and prior to the Trade Federation having a seat on the senate - which they got from you guessed it corruption).

So those republic worlds were effectively being pulled out of the Republic against their will (in some cases), Naboo did have senate representation prior to the Trade Federation but it is very close to the above - the blockade was largely legal as Naboo was effectively in breach of contract (the invasion is much more iffy).

In TCW there are at least a couple of systems, like Onderon, that dont want to be part of the republic for their own reasons, not just because theyre contractually obligated to go where the trade federation goes (the Separatist branch being portrayed as a renegade faction by their senator). Much of which was the point: Palpatine wanted to remove the independents and free thinkers who would be most aggressively opposed to his direct takeover, which is part of why he was able to ascend to the throne by popular acclaim.

[Mechalich]

In TCW there are at least a couple of systems, like Onderon, that dont want to be part of the republic for their own reasons, not just because theyre contractually obligated to go where the trade federation goes (the Separatist branch being portrayed as a renegade faction by their senator). Much of which was the point: Palpatine wanted to remove the independents and free thinkers who would be most aggressively opposed to his direct takeover, which is part of why he was able to ascend to the throne by popular acclaim.

There are plenty in the Legends conception too, however it's critically important to recognize that they are mostly powerless. The Star Wars galaxy contains an estimated 1 billion settled star systems, but only 69 million (a mere 7%) met the requirements for imperial representation, and a mere 1.75 million - around one planet in 600 - were full member worlds considered to be of any importance. And even out of those worlds there were multiple orders of magnitude levels of variation in their economic output. So while there may have been millions of worlds that wanted to secede from the Republic for ideological reasons, the mere thousands that actually mattered in terms of prosecuting a war were almost universally controlled by the corporate overlords. This is largely true on the Republic side as well, of course.

[Peelee]

If your boss tells you to write a story about robots, and you write a bad story about robots, who's fault is that?

If all your stories about robots are bad and your boss keeps telling you to write stories about robots, I think I know where the bigger problem lies.

[Jasdoif]

While the droid episodes were probably doomed from the get go, I do feel bad about the various political arcs. They include some of the most important world-building in the series and have lots of potential, but they just never cohere into anything useful. In part I blame Padme, who is just a terrible character. Catherine Taber does a much better job as Padme than Natalie Portman ever did, but it's not enough to make her capable of carrying a half-decent plotline. I wish they'd done more with Bail Organa instead, his character has much more potential.

I think another part of the political arcs is that the Republic and the Confederacy are both headed by villains (that the series doesn't have much influence over compared to its own creations); and when a political move is strong enough to warrant their attention, they tend to crush it. See the case of Mina Bonteri, whose peace proposal was attacked with a power reactor bombing on the Republic side and her corpse on the Confederacy side.

Many episodes/arcs that take a step down from that level do better, though they're not political in the typical sense either; Senate Murders is more about investigation than the senate, Trespass has the Pantoran Assembly only serve as a motivation for the conflict between why-the-heck-did-you-name-them-so-similarly Chi Cho and Chuchi, the Onderon arc earlier this season felt closer to a war movie....Then again, and this is just conjecture on my part, but maybe that's why those ones did better; like if the writers managed to touch on the high-level theme in a way that made more use of their writing affinities/strengths? It's not like genres/writers are identical and freely interchangable....

If your boss tells you to write a story about robots, and you write a bad story about robots, who's fault is that?

If the boss responds by not only approving the bad story to go into full production ahead of other stories, but telling the writers to write another story about robots; and this cycle repeats multiple times....It's reasonable to question whether the boss could/would distinguish a bad story from a good story, and by extension the writers' strengths from the writers' weaknesses; regardless of how you might choose to allocate the responsibility, of which there's plenty to go around, the idea that the series would have been better if better stories were ultimately turned into episodes isn't outlandish.

[Peelee]

If the boss responds by not only approving the bad story to go into full production ahead of other stories, but telling the writers to write another story about robots; and this cycle repeats multiple times....It's reasonable to question whether the boss could/would distinguish a bad story from a good story, and by extension the writers' strengths from the writers' weaknesses; regardless of how you might choose to allocate the responsibility, of which there's plenty to go around, the idea that the series would have been better if better stories were ultimately turned into episodes isn't outlandish.

You had a better breakdown, but I was pithier.

[Fyraltari]

I tried reading the Darth Plagueis novel a few years ago but it didn't capture me so gave up about a chapter in, I actually did read it this week (not sure what put me off last time after reading it now), in that it effectively details the foundation of the Separatists movement.

Basically the worlds of the Separatists movement were not free worlds and were instead controlled by the Trade Federation (and others), and these worlds were only ever in the Republic due to the Trade Federation (and others) bribing Senators to let them in - so the seperatist movement worlds were not actually interested in seperating (or joining in the first place for that matter) they were controlled by external interests and ultimately The Sith.

Now you might think they don't want to be their and shouldn't have been there in the first place - let them go. The problem with that is that the Trade Federation had contracts with these worlds prior to any republic involvement (and prior to the Trade Federation having a seat on the senate - which they got from you guessed it corruption).

So those republic worlds were effectively being pulled out of the Republic against their will (in some cases), Naboo did have senate representation prior to the Trade Federation but it is very close to the above - the blockade was largely legal as Naboo was effectively in breach of contract (the invasion is much more iffy).

Except that in this show, the CIS has its own Senate where a senator can loudly claim "we are a democracy, unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us!" without looking like a loon and that is powerful enough that Dooku won't openly defy it. Even in the movies, one member of the Separatist Council is Poggle the Lesser, who isn't head of a megacorporation but Archduke of a planet. The CIS is mostly located in the Outer Rim, which is the poverty-stricken part of the Galaxy the Old Republic (and later the Empire) doesn't give two ****s about in part because the core worlds have a strong undercurrent of anti-non-human prejudice. It'd not hard to see why the population of thede worlds would legitimately want out of the Republic.

Hell, this show presents genuine supporters of the CIS in the Bontieris and their home planet of Onderon had already be shown to have desires of independance back in KotOR II.

The Sith are very good planners, but you can't make a country if people don't want to be part of it.

[Peelee]

Except that in this show, the CIS has its own Senate where a senator can loudly claim "we are a democracy, unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us!" without looking like a loon

...... The CIS was largely comprised of the Techno Union, the Trade Federation, the Retail Clan, the Intergalactic Banking Clan, the Corporate Alliance, and the Commerce Guild.

Corporations literally ruled them, and that senator looks like a loon.

[Fyraltari]

...... The CIS was largely comprised of the Techno Union, the Trade Federation, the Retail Clan, the Intergalactic Banking Clan, the Corporate Alliance, and the Commerce Guild.

Corporations literally ruled them, and that senator looks like a loon.

They ruled them behind the scenes, apparently.

[pendell]

Behind the scenes? Wut? The Trade Federation in Episode 1 actually had a senator from the Trade Federation in the Senate. It'd be like the Senator from Amazon in the modern US; simply unheard of.

I don't think there's anything behind the scenes about the governing powers of the Separatists; they had open representation in the Senate as the rulers of their factions. They chose to leave the Republic, and the Republic, like a stalking ex-lover, can't let them go.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Behind the scenes? Wut? The Trade Federation in Episode 1 actually had a senator from the Trade Federation in the Senate. It'd be like the Senator from Amazon in the modern US; simply unheard of.

I don't think there's anything behind the scenes about the governing powers of the Separatists; they had open representation in the Senate as the rulers of their factions. They chose to leave the Republic, and the Republic, like a stalking ex-lover, can't let them go.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.

The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.

[Keltest]

We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.

The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.

Even if they dont literally, openly rule, the megacorps are the ones who have the actual armies, to say nothing of controlling a significant number of the actual member systems. The Separatist senate absolutely look like loons if they genuinely dont realize the power of these corporations in their government.

Its one thing for Dooku to hide his double life, but the entire actual governing body? Surely the senators would see their rule not actually getting enacted eventually.

[Peelee]

We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.

The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.

Which is like saying that Amazon, Ford, McDonald's, Walmart, and Google went off and formed their own country, and then proclaimed "we're a true democracy and not ruled by corporations!"

Sure, they could make that claim, but I don't think anyone would be able to hear it said earnestly without outright laughing at the idea that someone could take it seriously.

[Grim Portent]

The CIS government is in three parts, though it's taken a few different forms across the years as I understand it.

Parliament, comprised of the rulers or representatives of member worlds. This is supposedly the place that power actually resides, they elect a leader, the Seperatist Head of State (there appears to be no actual title,) who in turn is supposed to be beholden to their continued support.

The leader of parliament, in this case Dooku. Dooku is more or less unanimously the leader of the CIS, he founded it and is afforded an awful lot of blind trust, which he of course abuses.

The Seperatist Council, the Head of State's cabinet. Comprised of a mix of senators and corporate backers. Including the ruler/representative of Zygerria for example, and the head of the Intergalactic Banking Clan. Several members were in charge of organisations that were supposedly neutral. All were required to be obedient to Dooku and Grievous, and through them Sideous. Some of these people were senators for planets as well as corporate heads.


What's not clear to me is if the Seperatist Council was a public body or a clandestine one. I think it was originally the only public government body, with parliament being a relatively recent concept, but I've not read enough EU material to know. I got the impression from Clone Wars that the council is a secret shadow cabinet in more recent material, but I can't actually remember what gave me that impression.