Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Fyraltari]

Which is like saying that Amazon, Ford, McDonald's, Walmart, and Google went off and formed their own country, and then proclaimed "we're a true democracy and not ruled by corporations!"

Sure, they could make that claim, but I don't think anyone would be able to hear it said earnestly without outright laughing at the idea that someone could take it seriously.

I think the situation would more accurately be compared to a third of say, Brazil, seceding under the leadership of a charismatic individual with a spotless reputation of integrity to form a country. One whose armed forces happen to be made up at 90% of the security forces of various corporations exploiting the local resources. And said corporations have a secret agreement (I think the Separatist Council is meant to be a secret, not an official part of the CIS governing body) to control the policies of this new country to their advantage. Opponents would decry this country as a front for corporationsnbut that wouldn't stop that country to claim to be a democracy and to keep the corporations out of the limelight.

Look, I'm not saying the CIS isn't a banana republic, it definitely is one, but according to this show, it makes efforts to claim it isn't, and is doing a good enough job to have people like Lux's parents fooled.

Yes the notion that the TF and Co. are officially neutral in the war is a retcon (and a bad one in my opinion), but the notion that the CIS is made up of more than six companies and their holdings, that it gathers independent systems like Geonosis, Umbara or Onderon isn't. In AotC Palpatine says "more and more systems are joining the Separatists". Why do you think these systems' governments did? And more to the point, how do you think they justified it to their people? We see in this very show the CIS making ouvertures to planets like Rodia and Toydaria (or the quarren half of Mon Cala) to convince them to join freely. Yes, the idea that the CIS stands for freedom and democracy is a lie, but it's the lie they tell.

[Keltest]

I think the situation would more accurately be compared to a third of say, Brazil, seceding under the leadership of a charismatic individual with a spotless reputation of integrity to form a country. One whose armed forces happen to be made up at 90% of the security forces of various corporations exploiting the local resources. And said corporations have a secret agreement (I think the Separatist Council is meant to be a secret, not an official part of the CIS governing body) to control the policies of this new country to their advantage. Opponents would decry this country as a front for corporationsnbut that wouldn't stop that country to claim to be a democracy and to keep the corporations out of the limelight.

Look, I'm not saying the CIS isn't a banana republic, it definitely is one, but according to this show, it makes efforts to claim it isn't, and is doing a good enough job to have people like Lux's parents fooled.

Yes the notion that the TF and Co. are officially neutral in the war is a retcon (and a bad one in my opinion), but the notion that the CIS is made up of more than six companies and their holdings, that it gathers independent systems like Geonosis, Umbara or Onderon isn't. In AotC Palpatine says "more and more systems are joining the Separatists". Why do you think these systems' governments did? And more to the point, how do you think they justified it to their people? We see in this very show the CIS making ouvertures to planets like Rodia and Toydaria (or the quarren half of Mon Cala) to convince them to join freely. Yes, the idea that the CIS stands for freedom and democracy is a lie, but it's the lie they tell.

We also see plenty of CIS member states or groups join up, go "oh, crap, this isnt what they promised it was like at all!" and promptly want out. Its not a question of whether theyre tricking the senate, they absolutely are. Its that their senators look like morons for falling for it because of how obvious a lie it is from even a cursory examination. If the CIS had won on Mon Calamari, who would they have even sent as Senator? They couldnt send anybody involved in their government, because the Mon Cala would be oppressed and the Quarrans would have been betrayed at that point. So do they just tell their senate that Mon Calamari is just still a republic planet, or do they send that shark guy who is obviously neither Mon Cala nor Quarran?

[Peelee]

We also see plenty of CIS member states or groups join up, go "oh, crap, this isnt what they promised it was like at all!" and promptly want out. Its not a question of whether theyre tricking the senate, they absolutely are. Its that their senators look like morons for falling for it because of how obvious a lie it is from even a cursory examination.

Exactly. You can introduce any character you want the believe in it and buy the lie, but when it's as patently obvious as it is there, that doesn't make the CIS seem more competent, that makes the believers seem more foolish.

[Grim Portent]

Presumably they would find a Quarren quisling to send, or publicly go with the line that Mon Cala has been conquered rather than swapped sides and is under the provisional governance of a Karkarodon military governor.

[Keltest]

Presumably they would find a Quarren quisling to send, or publicly go with the line that Mon Cala has been conquered rather than swapped sides and is under the provisional governance of a Karkarodon military governor.

We will show the whole world our peaceful ways, by force!

[runeghost]

We're talking about the Confederation of Independent Systems, not the Galactic Repbulic, though. The Trade Federation and assorted megacorps have senators in the Republic... not in the CIS. They are much more influential in the CIS than in the Republic (as they actually control it), but in this show they claim to be neutral in the war (and still retain their senate representation, so they never officially left the Republic) and don't openly rule the Separatists.

The CIS party line is that they're a democracy who left the Republic because of its corruption.

Technically they're not wrong. The Republic is corrupt, and dominated by a Sith Lord. That the CIS is also corrupt and dominated by a Sith Lord means they're all playing a shell game in where, likely Haley says during the battle for Azure City, why should the con artist give the Galaxy any chance at all?

While Clone Wars' Count Dooku is a dyed-in-the-wool villain, the Count Dooku of AotC and RotS is more ambiguous. Yes, he's engaged with Palpatine/Sidious, but there are intriguing hints that he was trying to play his own game, either the classic Sith "overthrow your master" or perhaps an honest (at least in the beginning) attempt to save the Galaxy from Palatine, as a double-agent on his own initiative.

[Keltest]

Technically they're not wrong. The Republic is corrupt, and dominated by a Sith Lord. That the CIS is also corrupt and dominated by a Sith Lord means they're all playing a shell game in where, likely Haley says during the battle for Azure City, why should the con artist give the Galaxy any chance at all?

While Clone Wars' Count Dooku is a dyed-in-the-wool villain, the Count Dooku of AotC and RotS is more ambiguous. Yes, he's engaged with Palpatine/Sidious, but there are intriguing hints that he was trying to play his own game, either the classic Sith "overthrow your master" or perhaps an honest (at least in the beginning) attempt to save the Galaxy from Palatine, as a double-agent on his own initiative.

From my understanding of other EU works, Dooku's vision of a post-Clone-Wars galaxy was very different than what Palpatine ended up doing, and not just in the sense that he would be alive to see it.

[Jasdoif]

The CIS government is in three parts, though it's taken a few different forms across the years as I understand it.

Parliament, comprised of the rulers or representatives of member worlds. This is supposedly the place that power actually resides, they elect a leader, the Seperatist Head of State (there appears to be no actual title,) who in turn is supposed to be beholden to their continued support.

The leader of parliament, in this case Dooku. Dooku is more or less unanimously the leader of the CIS, he founded it and is afforded an awful lot of blind trust, which he of course abuses.

The Seperatist Council, the Head of State's cabinet. Comprised of a mix of senators and corporate backers. Including the ruler/representative of Zygerria for example, and the head of the Intergalactic Banking Clan. Several members were in charge of organisations that were supposedly neutral. All were required to be obedient to Dooku and Grievous, and through them Sideous. Some of these people were senators for planets as well as corporate heads.


What's not clear to me is if the Seperatist Council was a public body or a clandestine one. I think it was originally the only public government body, with parliament being a relatively recent concept, but I've not read enough EU material to know. I got the impression from Clone Wars that the council is a secret shadow cabinet in more recent material, but I can't actually remember what gave me that impression.

The Council could be both...an advisory council committee that had the favor of the chief executive, for example, could be both public and expected to have a disproportionate amount of influence compared to other committees; covering for a surreptitious method of operation.

[pendell]

From my understanding of other EU works, Dooku's vision of a post-Clone-Wars galaxy was very different than what Palpatine ended up doing, and not just in the sense that he would be alive to see it.

Actually, in the Revenge of the Sith novelization Dooku's vision and Palpatine's vision were very much the same. They deliberately coaxed most of the dominant nonhuman nations into the Separatist alliance so that they could use the Republic to utterly crush them and establish a human-dominated New Order. Think a certain twentieth century ideology with homo sapiens as the Master Race. COMPNOR was formed to establish the philosophical basis of the New Order, which was the militarized Galactic Empire.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

Rather than the nature of the governments, both the Republic and CIS claim to be democracies while actually being oligarchies, I think the allegiance most systems turned on matters of policy. In the immediate lead up to the Clone Wars the Republic was exceedingly weak. In fact, it was even weaker than it had been under Valorum because Palpatine deliberately rigged debate so as to make it look like he'd proposed all these great reforms only to have recalcitrant elements block them in order to bolster his strongman credentials. At the same time violence was increasing across the galaxy and many worlds were caught up in local conflicts. The backstory of Grievous - in which he led the Kaleesh against their Yam'rii aggressors only to watch his people die when the Republic sent Jedi to intervene on the behalf of the Yam'rii because Grievous' methods were war crime levels of brutal - is telling (also now true in both versions of canon thanks to FFG). Rather than representation, a huge number of systems in the Rim wanted protection and they thought the Separatists would either offer them more of it or at least offer them the chance to buy it in the form of battle droids.

[Sapphire Guard]

If the boss responds by not only approving the bad story to go into full production ahead of other stories, but telling the writers to write another story about robots; and this cycle repeats multiple times....It's reasonable to question whether the boss could/would distinguish a bad story from a good story, and by extension the writers' strengths from the writers' weaknesses; regardless of how you might choose to allocate the responsibility, of which there's plenty to go around, the idea that the series would have been better if better stories were ultimately turned into episodes isn't outlandish.

You are very confident in scripts you have never seen and know nothing about.

Spoiler: Fyraltari, best not to open this

Show

One of the other ideas of George's in that interview was Maul v Sidious, which is one of the highlights of the series. But that's not how this game works, is it? Concepts people don't like=George's fault. Concepts people do like=the writer saved it from George, regardless of any evidence or lack thereof, up to and including the Director being directly asked that question and saying no. 'Clone Wars writer' must be the cushiest job in TV, because you will never, ever be blamed for anything if the audience can find a way to blame George instead.

My understanding was that the separatist Council were something like the military chiefs of staff, ostensibly subordinate to the civilian government, but more powerful than they appear, and removed enough that Dooku could pull the classic dictator trick trick of 'if only Dooku knew about this, he would put a stop to it' whenever they overstep.

[Peelee]

You are very confident in scripts you have never seen and know nothing about.

On the contrary. The consensus on TCW is that it is overall quite good. The consensus of the Droid episodes is that they are overall quite bad. It is thus perfectly reasonable to conclude that if one person hadn't insisted on more Droid episodes (at least one per season, per that interview), then other stories that would have been used instead would have likely been quite good.

[Keltest]

On the contrary. The consensus on TCW is that it is overall quite good. The consensus of the Droid episodes is that they are overall quite bad. It is thus perfectly reasonable to conclude that if one person hadn't insisted on more Droid episodes (at least one per season, per that interview), then other stories that would have been used instead would have likely been quite good.

Is it? It seems to be assuming that droid episodes are inherently bad, and moreover that non-droid episodes are thus inherently good. Certainly you are free to conclude that, but it doesnt mean the droid episodes have to be bad, or that non-droid episodes have to be good. It could just as easily be assumed that without the droid episodes, the writers would phone in whichever episodes replaced them in order to focus on the ones they would rather be working on.

[Peelee]

Is it? It seems to be assuming that droid episodes are inherently bad, and moreover that non-droid episodes are thus inherently good. Certainly you are free to conclude that, but it doesnt mean the droid episodes have to be bad, or that non-droid episodes have to be good. It could just as easily be assumed that without the droid episodes, the writers would phone in whichever episodes replaced them in order to focus on the ones they would rather be working on.

It could be assumed that without the Droid episodes, the writers would all resign in protest, if we're going to go with any random assumption we want that's not technically impossible. However, I pointed out how consensus views the show overall and how consensus views droid-centered episodes (both taken from commentary in this very thread), and used those as the basis for a reasonable assumption. You just took an assumption without any backing other than "it could happen" and used that as a rebuttal.

Youll forgive me if I don't think your proposed assumption has more likelihood than mine and dismiss it out of hand.

[Jasdoif]

You are very confident in scripts you have never seen and know nothing about.

I know George Lucas didn't feel they were notably better than the scripts for the episodes we saw.

I certainly understand asking for droid scripts each season; droids are a notable feature of the Star Wars setting, and droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming Missing in Action, for example). And it's certainly possible that "droid episodes" hit near the bottom rung but not quite low enough to be discarded for production...but four seasons in a row of that?

But that's not how this game works, is it? Concepts people don't like=George's fault. Concepts people do like=the writer saved it from George, regardless of any evidence or lack thereof, up to and including the Director being directly asked that question and saying no. 'Clone Wars writer' must be the cushiest job in TV, because you will never, ever be blamed for anything if the audience can find a way to blame George instead.

General responsibilities of executive producers (and I guess directors) aside....I like to think about these things because I have a fascination for how things are made "oversight over creativity" is not a trivial subject. As you said yourself, George Lucas provides the basic concepts for the writers and has veto-like authority; he thus bears some responsibility for what kind of stories get written and what stories get turned into episodes, concurrently with the writers being responsible for the quality of their own writing. The quality of the episodes is thus influenced by both, in different ways; and when you've got a very inconsistent level of quality from episode to episode like this series tends toward, I think there's more ready potential to find in the "why isn't this more frequently as good as we've seen it" interpolation rather than the "why wasn't this even better than its best" extrapolation....And "as good as we've seen it" naturally accepts the high points where they are.


George Lucas is a person, and like any person he has his strengths and he has his weaknesses. If you're looking to argue with someone who thinks George Lucas can do nothing right, you might start by finding someone with no appreciation for the original trilogy that kicked off the entire franchise.

[Mechalich]

I certainly understand asking for droid scripts each season; droids are a notable feature of the Star Wars setting, and droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming Missing in Action, for example). And it's certainly possible that "droid episodes" hit near the bottom rung but not quite low enough to be discarded for production...but four seasons in a row of that?

One thing is that it may not be droids generally, but R2-D2 and C-3PO specifically. Other sources have indicated (and has been discussed in this thread I believe) that Lucas mandated a certain level of screen time for Jar-Jar Binks, so his two favorite droids seem a likely target for the same mandate (especially given that Anthony Daniels kept showing up to do the voice work for C-3PO). It's entirely possible that the TCW writers never quite put together the secret sauce to make those two characters function dynamically. Alternatively, it's also possible that, none of the TCW writers particularly liked the droids - seems reasonable to me, Lucas seems to love them more than anyone else - and then when prospective scripts were divided up they kept falling to less talented teams.

[Fyraltari]

droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming Missing in Action, for example).

It feels more like a clone episode, though.

[Jasdoif]

droid episodes could certainly be good (the upcoming Missing in Action, for example).

It feels more like a clone episode, though.

True enough, but it still manages to keep the droids in play most of the time; I feel like it's more like a resourceful hybridization, rather than a sidestep of the droid theme.

And come to think of it....What you said about A Sunny Day in the Void trying to "have something insightful to say (it hasn't) about training, programming, nature, rationnality and instinct" seems like it'd dovetail nicely with a clone trooper dealing with amnesia. Combined with many times while rewatching Missing in Action I felt like things were rushed instead of developed, I'm wondering about how scripts were divvied up into episode-sized chunks.

[Peelee]

Other sources have indicated (and has been discussed in this thread I believe) that Lucas mandated a certain level of screen time for Jar-Jar Binks

Which shouldn't be surprising, considering Jar-Jar is Lucas's favorite character.

[Sapphire Guard]

The role of the executive producer can vary from being the driving force of the production to being at a distance without much direct interaction. Most likely, it varies from arc to arc, but as the production is fairly opaque, and we get limited snippets of information as to George's influence (notably, George has not spoken about it, so we mostly get Dave's perspective on what George has said and done, not George's himself) And Dave is less likely to talk publically about areas where he massively screwed up and had to be reined in than he is the areas where he had to fix someone else's mistakes. This doesn't imply dishonesty or anything, he just probably has clearer memories of his successes.

The Clone Wars is an anthology show, which has different arcs which may appeal to different parts of the audience. This particular one is more lighthearted and silly, probably aimed at a younger audience. That seems to be the primary criticism of the droids or Jar Jar arcs, but is it in itself a failing that some of the arcs in a show aimed at children are primarily aimed at children?

We do not have information to indicate the George was more involved in the droid arcs than he was in the more serious arcs, we know he said 'do a droids arc', but that's all. We know he gave a similar direction for one of the best loved stories in the series. The idea that he was more involved in the arc that is less well liked appears to be based on the idea that because it was less well liked, George must have been more involved, rather than any actual information indicating as such.

Ideas always get left on the cutting room floor, that's totally normal, as is writing to someone else's concepts. If as a writer you can't handle that, TV writing is probably not for you.

Edit: Also the reveal of Jar Jaar being George's favourite came shortly after Ahmed best revealed he almost killed himself due to the abuse he received. I suspect George wanting to show support for him had something to do with that.

[Fyraltari]

The Clone Wars is an anthology show, which has different arcs which may appeal to different parts of the audience. This particular one is more lighthearted and silly, probably aimed at a younger audience. That seems to be the primary criticism of the droids or Jar Jar arcs, but is it in itself a failing that some of the arcs in a show aimed at children are primarily aimed at children?

"Lighthearted and silly" describes Secret Weapons well, but not A Sunny day in the Void or Missing in Action.

[Jasdoif]

We do not have information to indicate the George was more involved in the droid arcs than he was in the more serious arcs, we know he said 'do a droids arc', but that's all. We know he gave a similar direction for one of the best loved stories in the series. The idea that he was more involved in the arc that is less well liked appears to be based on the idea that because it was less well liked, George must have been more involved, rather than any actual information indicating as such.

Ideas always get left on the cutting room floor, that's totally normal, as is writing to someone else's concepts. If as a writer you can't handle that, TV writing is probably not for you.

It's true; if, as the interview says, the writers wrote more stories for arcs in a season than there are even episodes in that season, something obviously was cut. Which, naturally, doesn't include stories that were actually made into episodes. So it's fair to question why.

Assuming we're being oblique about "one of the best loved stories in the series" because Fyraltari hasn't gotten that far in his reviews of this season yet, it seems obvious: it plays to an emotional investment of one of the series' tritagonists, it effectively ties some of the characters from the prequel movies with characters the series created itself, it has strong narrative cause and effect, it has one of those really big fight scenes, it's got characterization throughout...It's not hard to guess why anyone would choose to keep that one.

Meanwhile, Nomad Droids wasn't cut, because...it has the most trivial of story structures, nearly everything happens to C-3PO and R2-D2 instead of because of them, it has no dramatic cohesion, and ends almost exactly where it began? That doesn't sound right...And as mentioned there's a lot of cutting floor available, so I have major doubts this represented the middling choices (or if it did, it was time to take a long look at the writing staff from above); particularly as this wasn't the first time a "droid arc" was represented with subpar episodes. My best interpretation of the strange "got on a bend" phrase in the interview is that it indicates George really wanted those types of stories made into episodes...which could certainly account for the choice regardless of how good an episode it was.


I'm not sure what that "more involved" thing you're talking about is supposed to be. Wouldn't "give the writers concepts to write, then choose which stories they've written to turn into episodes" apply equally across all the stories that were written, and thus mean equal involvement across all the stories that were made into episodes? It's structurally similar to requesting complicated entries be generated from a list of small criteria, ranking the results, and returning a top-ranked subset; discrepancies in the results can stem from the ranking process or the input list, just as they can from the entry generation itself.

[Keltest]

It's true; if, as the interview says, the writers wrote more stories for arcs in a season than there are even episodes in that season, something obviously was cut. Which, naturally, doesn't include stories that were actually made into episodes. So it's fair to question why.

Assuming we're being oblique about "one of the best loved stories in the series" because Fyraltari hasn't gotten that far in his reviews of this season yet, it seems obvious: it plays to an emotional investment of one of the series' tritagonists, it effectively ties some of the characters from the prequel movies with characters the series created itself, it has strong narrative cause and effect, it has one of those really big fight scenes, it's got characterization throughout...It's not hard to guess why anyone would choose to keep that one.

Meanwhile, Nomad Droids wasn't cut, because...it has the most trivial of story structures, nearly everything happens to C-3PO and R2-D2 instead of because of them, it has no dramatic cohesion, and ends almost exactly where it began? That doesn't sound right...And as mentioned there's a lot of cutting floor available, so I have major doubts this represented the middling choices (or if it did, it was time to take a long look at the writing staff from above); particularly as this wasn't the first time a "droid arc" was represented with subpar episodes. My best interpretation of the strange "got on a bend" phrase in the interview is that it indicates George really wanted those types of stories made into episodes...which could certainly account for the choice regardless of how good an episode it was.

That may depend on what they mean by having the story written though. There are absolutely ways to salvage many of the droid episodes, so were they pitched as terrible and picked up in spite of it, or were they made from something workable into something terrible as the script was fleshed out and the details added after the episode was picked to be made?

[Jasdoif]

That may depend on what they mean by having the story written though. There are absolutely ways to salvage many of the droid episodes, so were they pitched as terrible and picked up in spite of it, or were they made from something workable into something terrible as the script was fleshed out and the details added after the episode was picked to be made?

Hm. So you're thinking like...the main threads for the arc were established, and approved; but when the arc was broken into production-sized chunks to flesh out the details, some of the chunks didn't align well with episode length and improvisation had to happen to fill/fit the time? That could explain stuff like that weird thing with Dooku Captured and The Gungan General all the way back in season one, where the former ended with Anakin and Obi-Wan visibly thwarting the pirates' attempt to capture them and the latter opened with Anakin and Obi-Wan already being captured....

[Keltest]

Hm. So you're thinking like...the main threads for the arc were established, and approved; but when the arc was broken into production-sized chunks to flesh out the details, some of the chunks didn't align well with episode length and improvisation had to happen to fill/fit the time? That could explain stuff like that weird thing with Dooku Captured and The Gungan General all the way back in season one, where the former ended with Anakin and Obi-Wan visibly thwarting the pirates' attempt to capture them and the latter opened with Anakin and Obi-Wan already being captured....

Basically. I assume that at the stage where different stories are getting approved for production into full episodes, they dont have everything scripted out and maybe not completely storyboarded at that point. So R2 and 3PO exploring an underground realm with all sorts of spooky alien stuff sounds like an exciting pitch, but "3PO whines his way through a series of kind of interesting caves" is what we ended up with because thats all they ended up doing with the premise when they got to the stage of actually writing and recording the actual lines.

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, Episode 12: Missing in Action

Spoiler: Recap

Show

So, last episode I thought the city was uninhabited ruins from before the place turned into a a chalk-like desert but there are people around. It reminds R2 of Tatooine, which tells WAC he never wants to go to Tatooine. Fair. Gascon tells QT not to be worried, the locals aren't dangerous. And an eighty-cetimeter tall alien immediately robs a guy at knife-point. Okay that made me chuckle. Gascon elaborates that most people around here must be in hiding, no-one comes to these "armpits of the galaxy" by choice. I guess that would explain why the Republic has literally no-information on the planet despite there being at least one major settlement. Also, weirdly enough, both Gascon and the opening narration treat "the void" as the name of the desert when it seemed to me it was just gascon saying the planet's entry in the database was void.

Gascon decides their next course of action is to find a space-phone to be picked up and some food for him (plus some power for WAC who is running low apparently. I guess astromechs have better batteries?). Therefore the two of them head for a (very filthy) diner while the others look around for any potential hostiles. Gascon loudly introduces himself as a colonel of the GAR on very important business and orders a daily special and somewhere to plug his droids. Dude, if this is the criminal hidey-hole you pegged it as... maybe don't broadcast that you're with the fuzz? Also how do you plan on paying for your food? The cook, however, refuses to serve either droids (ah! ANH reference!) or "conduit worms" (whatever those are* is never clarified) and threaten them with his knife until they leave. Gascon is pissed and hungry, but WAC knows how to find food. Following a bunch of alien roaches, he leads him behind the diner where there are several heaps of discarded, rotting food. How is a diner on some remote-ass desert planet getting some much excess food? Gascon complains about eating garbage, but WAC doesn't see the difference and the colonel is too hungry to be picky.

Meanwhile the astromechs spot a patrol of B1s casually strolling the street, as you do, and head back. The diner's waiter, a human, comes out an empty a fresh casket of trash on the already overfilled bin, accidentally giving Gascon the least sanitary shower this side of Nal Hutta. He apologizes and offers to give him some proper food. However, Gascon is less interested by sustenance and more by the fact that the waiter is clearly a Fett clone, despite the civvies and the beard. The man, confused, introduces himself as Gregor and asks what a clone is. Gascon assumes he's working under cover (I think clone troopers would make the worst undercover operatives ever: recognizable face and basically no-knowledge of the real world) and that whatever his mission is, his takes priority. So he orders him to take him to his ship and Coruscant immediately. Should at least give a special operation password or something my dude, if he's really under cover, he wouldn't break it just for "I'm on your side, trust me bro". Gregor, just keeps apologizing for not understanding and gets back inside as his boss calls for him. the colonel is still hungry and therefore I must assume he kept eating garbage. The Republicans reunite and the colonel is informed of the separatists presence there.

Closing the diner, Gregor asks his boss what the clone is and if he knows why someone called him that. The cook, Borkas, answers that clones are brave soldiers fighting battles across the galaxy. So, nothing like him, a dish-washer. he tells him to forget any story of "clones" and enjoy the good, simple life he has now, which is much better than the one he had before Borkas found him. Gregor than asks how he got there and where Borkas found him. Borkas refuses to answer, sends him home for the night and forbids him from talking to him about clones again. Meanwhile WAC and Gascon are arguing (for a change), WAC complains that they're on their third plan yet and claims that droids may not have tactical flexibility
but only because they're right the first time. Gascon shoots back that if that were true, one of the droids would be in charge, not him. WAC says he's only in charge because he's the only one small enough to fit inside BZ. I mean, that's true, but the only reason someone needs to be is for the mission not to be lead by a droid, so... Anyway, Gascon's new plan is to find the shuttle that brought the separatists there and commandeer it. I mean, it would probably be less risky to commandeer another ship (there must be, otherwise how did all these people even get there) but it would be more questionable, morally and from a PR perspective if they're spotted, I guess. Gascon wants to repeat their "dreadnought infiltration" act and just waltz through the landing pad (which is crawling with battle droids). The mechs object that after pulling that, the droids probably have their identity scanned. Doubt it, that would require competence. They will need to fight their way through, this time. But there's "no way in Malachor"** the five of them can pull that off. So they're going to enlist Gregor's help whther he wants to or not.

Speaking of, Gregor gets home and the squad huddles near one of his windows (he lives in an underground apartment). How did they find him so quickly? R2 beams in an hologram of Rex. Gregor is uterrly confused by what seems to be an image of himself in armor until Gascon comes in to explain that's another clone in the Republic's Army. Cut to a bit later after they've given him an explanation of what the clones are (I wonder if they've mentioned the accelerated aging part, because, huh, he probably should know). Gregor asks if all clones look like him, Gascon says the clones are professional warriors, not dishwashers living in a vermin infested bum-hole. Oh, pick a lane, colonel! Also, really doing a great job at asking for help, here, jackass. Gregor says he's lucky to even live there, Borkas says his salary doesn't cover the rent so he pays the difference. "Don't you get it? You're his slave!" ("So come be our slave instead, you have no choice, you're born like that. I just mentioned how clones die in the war, doesn't that sound appealing?" Urgh.) The colonel asks if he remembers anything about how he got there. He just remembers waking up in a crashed transport, Borkas says he has "amnesia". However, every clone has his identification number tattooed on the wrist (though it isn't visible under normal light) so R2 scans Gregors and his file comes up (do you think every astromech carries the up-to-date personnel files of the entire army at all times, or just R2?). He's CC-5576-39, a captain in the commando elite, reported Missing In Action during the Battle of Sarrish, one of the Republic's greatest defeat. The name brings some of his memories back. He remembers bodies everywhere and trying to to get help, bit no more. Gascon says it's too late for that, but he can still help them.

Six minutes later, they have given Gregor five minutes to make a decision (Gascon has no intention to take no for an answer) and Gregor shows up, freshly-shaven and with short hair. Holy ****'s this man's true calling isn't war, he's the galaxy's greatest hairdresser! He's done this in the hop that looking more like he used to would help jog up his memory. And in the same spirit (and practicality) he's taking them to the diner where he thinks his armor is. however, Borkas overheard them and he brings them a crate containing Gregor's uniform. Gregor is understandably pissed that Borkas didn't explain his past to him. Boraks says he doesn't care who Gregor was, he's a dish-washer now, who owes him for saving life and his life is his, now! (then why did you keep the armor?). Gregor says he didn't save him, he's turned him into a slave! He's been working in this dump taking order from him when he could have been fighting for the Republic! Yeah! He could have been taking orders from completely different people! Yoo-hoo! Borkas points Gregor's gun at him and says taht, as a soldier he should be able to take it from him. He easily swats the clone away and gloats that he'll stay a dishwasher for ever. The mechs attack him, using QT's remote magnet to neutralize the blaster and their cables to tie him up. Bizarrely, R2 doesn't taze him. Gregor takes his stuff (holy cow, his helmet is covered in tally marks!) and leaves as Borkas makes one last plea for him to satay. When he refuses, the cook gloats that they won't be able to leave the planet once their Jedi cruiser blows up and they'll be back begging for a job. Gascon prods him more about that and he reveals that the reason the Seppies are here is that they're mining "ridonium" to load on a shuttle to use as a fire ship against a cruiser, which he assumed is how the squad got her and intends to leave.

Back at the landing pad, Gregor does indeed see a Republic ship in high atmosphere and droids loading ridonium (a volatile fuel) on a shuttle. Gascon changes the mission's objectives to include putting a stop to this shenaniganery. The plan is simple: Gregor fights and everybody else runs to the shuttle. They do try for a modicum of stealth with Gregor taking out every droid noticing them until it's no longer feasible and then drawing attention to himself and away from his allies. Also he does the good ole FPS trick of shooting at the explosive barrels the enemies are standing next to. Should probably kill everybody, but whatever. Some B1s spot the squad and fire at them, being B1s they hit some other barrels, the resulting explosion knocking BZ to the ground. Completely ignoring his fellow droid, WAC asks if the colonel is okay and immediately follows the order of "save yourself!" Fortunately for them, Gregor rescues the two and sends them on their way. He, however ends up surrounded by a veritable cohort of hostiles. Gascon (and R2) wants to turn the shuttle back to pick him up but he refuses. He says he remembers who he is thanks to them and that he'll find his own way back. Overwhelmed, the clone fires at all the fuel canisters he can, creating huge explosion. Gascon comments that he's doing "what a soldier does: sacrificing himself for the lives of others." Oh, go to Malachor, colonel. Gascon gives an eulogy, saying he will be remembered as they will bring his story back to the Republic and watch for his return. What in case he comes back as a ghost to haunt you?

*Gascon says he's a Zilkin, so it's not his species.
**Wait... I know I shouldn't overthink a random "idiom gag" moment, but... Malachor has such a sinister reputation? I assume at the time of production (before the Disney purchase) that was meant as a reference to Malachor V, form KotOR II, which was a pretty hellish place, but would the Malachor in Rebels have left that much of an impression too? I'm pretty sure Ezra didn't know about it, but I don't remember if the other members of the crew were aware of it before going there.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

This episode is more entertaining that the previous one that's for sure.

You know, of all the various aesthetics present in this universe, American Graffiti throwback is my least favourite. By far. I don't really know why, but it kind of breaks my immersion.

Gregor is a fine character and I know he shows back again in Rebels, so that's cool. Still like Cut Lawquane better, though.

I wasn't Gascon greatest fan until now, but he was growing on me. I find his hypocrisy here really upsetting though. He just commandeered a man's life (while talking down to him) and he has the galls to frame it as liberating him!? Like, Borkas was clearly abusive but was he never sent Gregor to his death (and the episode does treat him as death). Tell me what is more appealing being "Gregor" or being "CC-5576-39"? Like, they treat him being a soldier as him reconnecting with his true "calling/self/nature" however, you want to call it. But the only reason he was a soldier in the first place wasn't because of his own aspirations but kaminoan eugenicists and a lifetime of indoctrination. And frankly, an episode where someone is repeatedly called a slave... With five droids in the room. One of which was intentionally given amnesia, to boot! They really didn't think this through, did they?

Next up: Point of no return. I assume they decode Grievous's transmission and foil whatever his plan is this week. And for some reason, the Squad will be tasked to do it instead of literally anyone else.

[Jasdoif]

Next up: Point of no return. I assume they decode Grievous's transmission and foil whatever his plan is this week. And for some reason, the Squad will be tasked to do it instead of literally anyone else.

Oh no, it's way less formulaic.

[Mechalich]

And frankly, an episode where someone is repeatedly called a slave... With five droids in the room. One of which was intentionally given amnesia, to boot! They really didn't think this through, did they?

One of the fundamental conceits necessary for Star Wars to make sense is that whatever droids are, they are fundamentally different than organic sapients and that droid rights and not the same as people rights, because droids are somehow, at an immanent level, not people. The explanation seems to lie in that living beings have a presence in the Force - "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" - Master Yoda - and droids don't. Essentially, droids don't have souls, which is how Lucas has framed the issue.

A lot of people don't like this, and that's fair, the universe has often handled it very badly. However, it has also repeatedly demonstrated that droid consciousness is very different from the consciousness of organic sapients. For example, it is possible to make identical copies of droids, but not possible to make identical copies of people - the clones are genetically identical, but each one is distinct in the force, a point TCW made explicitly in the very first episode.

Critically, whether or not audience members accept this aspect of the Star Wars universe, everyone in-universe does. While slavery of sapient organic beings is regularly condemned, the use of droids as what as basically mobile appliances despite their potential for sapience (droid intelligence seems to evolve over time, regular memory wipes reset this, R2-D2 is as smart as he is because he keeps avoiding them) is universally accepted by essentially everyone, including supposed moral paragons. Gascon doesn't see any cognitive discipline in condemning slavery while standing in front of droids he owns, and neither does anyone else in the galaxy.

[Fyraltari]

One of the fundamental conceits necessary for Star Wars to make sense is that whatever droids are, they are fundamentally different than organic sapients and that droid rights and not the same as people rights, because droids are somehow, at an immanent level, not people. The explanation seems to lie in that living beings have a presence in the Force - "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" - Master Yoda - and droids don't. Essentially, droids don't have souls, which is how Lucas has framed the issue.

A lot of people don't like this, and that's fair, the universe has often handled it very badly. However, it has also repeatedly demonstrated that droid consciousness is very different from the consciousness of organic sapients. For example, it is possible to make identical copies of droids, but not possible to make identical copies of people - the clones are genetically identical, but each one is distinct in the force, a point TCW made explicitly in the very first episode.

Critically, whether or not audience members accept this aspect of the Star Wars universe, everyone in-universe does. While slavery of sapient organic beings is regularly condemned, the use of droids as what as basically mobile appliances despite their potential for sapience (droid intelligence seems to evolve over time, regular memory wipes reset this, R2-D2 is as smart as he is because he keeps avoiding them) is universally accepted by essentially everyone, including supposed moral paragons. Gascon doesn't see any cognitive discipline in condemning slavery while standing in front of droids he owns, and neither does anyone else in the galaxy.

"They" was referring to the writers. I don't care what the frogman thinks. I understand that Star Wars just isn't tonally equipped to actually grapple with the role of droids within its setting (the closest we got to that was in Solo and the least said about that, the better), but if you're going to ignore the elephant in the room, you shouldn't be talking about the elephant in the zoo.

Also:

it is possible to make identical copies of droids, but not possible to make identical copies of people

Yeah you can. Just ask Sidious once he's back from the dead in yeat another body.

Edit: also, also the droids' collective inability to sense or wield the Force doesn't seem to have anything to do with a difference in their sapience (they are constantly show to have human-like behaviours, emotion and thoughts) but to a combined midi-chlorian cout of zero.

[Mechalich]

Yeah you can. Just ask Sidious once he's back from the dead in yeat another body.

No. Sidious has a single soul. He can move that soul from one body to the next (something he did in both continuities), but he can't duplicate it. That's why he has to knock the soul out of a body he's trying to take over, which is what all the absurd ritualistic garbage in Rise of Skywalker is attempting to accomplish.

Edit: also, also the droids' collective inability to sense or wield the Force doesn't seem to have anything to do with a difference in their sapience (they are constantly show to have human-like behaviours, emotion and thoughts) but to a combined midi-chlorian cout of zero.

In Star Wars the outward behavioral indicators we associate with sapience do not necessarily indicate sapience. Droids are philosophical zombies. They appear to be conscious, but on a fundamental level, expressed in Star Wars via the Force, are not.