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Thread: Why ban ToB?

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terane View Post
    Well, probably not that last - SR28 is a bit of a problem for a level 1 wizard.
    Hmmm. I see your point. Still, it'll kill most enemies in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    If Magic Missile is your best combat action at 13th level, either you have a super weird (and probably very bad) build, or you have made a strategic or tactical mistake. The fact that you can contrive scenarios where it is useful shows only that it does not do literally nothing.
    Sorry, but equating "best combat options" with "all combat options" is your own faulty reasoning. Slot-constrained magic users like wizards actually DO have to consider all of their options, not just their best. That is the key for an efficient use of limited ressources.

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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    Certainly in D&D fiction, magic missiles are a staple of even the most powerful wizards. The Simbul often fires off multiple magic missile spells at once (using Spell Sequencer spells grants access to that sort of thing).
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    on the issue of magic missile, I honestly see it as a wasted spell slot. especially in pathfinder, where the only time i could see my wizard character wanting to cast magic missile is with a zombie or such at first level and oh look i can cast disrupt undead all day.and when I get up higher in levels I have more universally effective save or suck that can pin down such monsters so that i can either run away or let the fighters kill em after that. sleep and grease can rest easy knowing that i will not be replacing them with magic missile.
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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Sorry, but equating "best combat options" with "all combat options" is your own faulty reasoning. Slot-constrained magic users like wizards actually DO have to consider all of their options, not just their best. That is the key for an efficient use of limited ressources.
    No, they don't. The time cost from considering and eliminating Magic Missile each combat round is higher than the benefit from actually casting it. It's not like the 13th level Wizard is seriously considering "shoot it with my crossbow" either.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Certainly in D&D fiction, magic missiles are a staple of even the most powerful wizards. The Simbul often fires off multiple magic missile spells at once (using Spell Sequencer spells grants access to that sort of thing).
    The correspondence between "D&D fiction" and "D&D rules", let alone "behavior of intelligent D&D players" is almost nonexistent. Also, much of the fiction draws on earlier editions, where Magic Missile actually did enough damage to be semi-useful.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    On the minimax forum I found a guide for making a character who only used magic missile
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    not by playing magic the gathering.
    See, while not personally agreeing I was totally sympathetic to your point of view until this weird out-of-nowhere crack.

    I defy anyone to explain why any part of ToB feels like a collectible card game without sounding ridiculous.

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    Well, non-idiot crusaders do pick a number of options from a pool at random, and once those options are expended they can't be used again. That sounds a lot like MTG's system of a deck and a hand of cards, on a very abstract level. You even build your deck by picking your maneuvers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    One solution to the boringness of one discipline at a time would be to have a pool of general maneuvers -- things that really shouldn't be gated by any discipline, such as "successful attack stuns target" -- usable regardless of stance. Those general maneuvers would presumably be easier for non-martial adepts to access.
    This is probably the best way to make that idea workable. I'm reminded of one old attempt to take all the fighter powers in the 4e PHB and condense them down to 2 pages because most of them weren't anything special. If all of your basic "Make N melee attacks, deal +Xd6 damage" maneuvers were usable all the time, I wouldn't have as many objections to restricting all the more interesting maneuvers by stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Not all of those are real options though. A 13th level Wizard is not seriously evaluating Magic Missile as a combat option.
    Of course not, not any more than a 13th-level swordsage is seriously evaluating Blistering Flourish as a combat option...but he might still care about expeditious retreat against a fast opponent or protection from evil against a possessing demon, the same way the swordsage might still care about Burning Blade against a cold-subtyped monster or Sudden Leap against a flying one.

    The point is not that all spells and maneuvers of all levels are equally valuable in a given combat, but that the problem of "here are a bunch of different usable abilities of varying relevance and power to which you currently have access, how do you organize them for easy reference during play?" is already a thing for all spellcasting classes, and if casters can handle 30+ spells at some point (whether that's by memorizing them or making spell cards or just ignoring everything below their top two levels or whatever) then there's no need to worry about initiators handling the same number of maneuvers.

    Granted, some players do have trouble keeping track of more than a handful of abilities even with mnemonic aids, and that's fine...but that's not a reason to limit initiators overall (since that's just reinforcing the "smart and experienced players play spellcasters, dumb n00bs play martial types" stereotype), it's a reason to provide both simple and complex classes for both the casting and martial playstyles.
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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    actually with the right metamagic feats magic missle can remain a viable combat at high level
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    No, they don't. The time cost from considering and eliminating Magic Missile each combat round is higher than the benefit from actually casting it. It's not like the 13th level Wizard is seriously considering "shoot it with my crossbow" either.



    The correspondence between "D&D fiction" and "D&D rules", let alone "behavior of intelligent D&D players" is almost nonexistent. Also, much of the fiction draws on earlier editions, where Magic Missile actually did enough damage to be semi-useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by el minster View Post
    agreed heartily
    in PF, there is also a couple combat maneuvers you can attach to it such as trip. A 5 person at once trip for 2nd level spell slot? Not too shabby at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I'm saying ToB doesn't feel like fighting, it feels like sword magic, and is therefore less fun for people who want to emulate fighting, and not sword magic.
    I know it certainly doesn’t fix the disconnect, but it seems relevant to point out that readying only requires five minutes. This means that an initiator with a bit of scouting can prepare what would appear most appropriate for an upcoming fight. Again, it’s not perfect, as any level of surprise will leave you unable to use a choice maneuver.

    Would you consider these adjustments, or at least do you feel they would address your concerns with the readied mechanic? The first is to increase the number of readied maneuvers, particularly at lower levels. Don’t make a warblade have to choose at all until 9th level or so when they have 7 maneuvers readied at a time. Crusaders would probably want at least the option to refresh at their normal rate.

    The other option is to allow you to use unreadied maneuvers, but at a penalty. Maybe you take some small amount of damage as you force your body to make crazy motions without properly stretching first?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    I know it certainly doesn’t fix the disconnect, but it seems relevant to point out that readying only requires five minutes. This means that an initiator with a bit of scouting can prepare what would appear most appropriate for an upcoming fight. Again, it’s not perfect, as any level of surprise will leave you unable to use a choice maneuver.
    While I can't speak for H_H_F_F, personally I don't think that make it that much better from a flavor standpoint. Imagine real life martial artist having to think about every move for five minutes in order to do it. Feels a little silly to me.

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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    Again, the readying doesn't mean you can't do the maneuver if it's unreadied, imo. It means you can't usefully do it in a stressful situation against a resisting opponent. Outside of combat, in circumstances where it's legal to take 10 on skills, I'd let initiators do all their maneuvers, readied or not, every other round. Though the healing ones wouldn't heal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Again, the readying doesn't mean you can't do the maneuver if it's unreadied, imo. It means you can't usefully do it in a stressful situation against a resisting opponent. Outside of combat, in circumstances where it's legal to take 10 on skills, I'd let initiators do all their maneuvers, readied or not, every other round. Though the healing ones wouldn't heal.
    I think the flavor issue here is that a large part of being a master swordsman is exactly being able to react quickly to your opponent, drawing instinctually from your repertoire of techniques.

    Like, Olympic fencers aren't restricted to fight using only the small portion of techniques they can practice in five minutes the morning of the match. They use everything they know, because they spend years mastering their discipline and that means reacting in a stressful situation without missing a beat, otherwise you lose.
    Last edited by Silly Name; 2020-07-16 at 12:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    I apologize for not responding, I stopped paying attention to the thread somewhere in the magic missile conversation. However, the people who don't speak for me spoke for me very well, so I don't have much to add. I don't think that really adresses the flavor issue.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Well really I think the people who argued against ToB were just making excuses because they didn't want to say it was a flavor issue
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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    clearly ToB is like mtg in that they’re both pay to win. How did you get ToB back in the day? That’s right, you bought it!
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    I mean, flavor issues are valid issues, IMHO. I also think some truly find the mechanics not to their liking, which is understandable.

    I myself have no strong feelings on ToB: if one of my players wants to use stuff from there I'll allow it, maybe refluff as demanded by the setting. What matters to me is keeping intra-party balance, so if that players risks overshadowing other non-ToB martials I'll try my best to help them a bit (a magic item here or there, sprinkle in some situations where their build shines...). I do agree the readied maneuvers system is wonky flavor-wise, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by el minster View Post
    Well really I think the people who argued against ToB were just making excuses because they didn't want to say it was a flavor issue
    I feel it is important to distinct between issues with the flavour of the book(Too anime, I don't like martials using fire, etc) and issues with the flavour emerging from the mechanics of the book, which is what I was talking about. You can refluff anything, you can change fire damage to bludgeoning damage, no problem. You can't refluff the system. In that sense, if you have a real issue with the flavour evoked by the mechanics, you're done. If it doesn't bother other people that's great for them, but there are no easy fixes which would allow you to incorporate it in your games.

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    Default Re: Why ban ToB?

    The main and best reason would be not having access to the book.

    The next reason would be that core martials are allowed in the game and/or martial adepts being perceived as overpowered. I probably wouldn't allow PC fighter/PC monk to exist in the same game as the warblade/swordsage, they'd just get replaced; as for initiators being OP, that's the clarion call of someone who needs to get CoDzilla'd.

    The last reason would be weeb factor, which is dumb since a wizard/fighter or sorcerer/paladin gish is just as weeb as a martial adept, except one of those is functional without spending hours combing through obscure splatbooks. If you think it's this one, ask him about using the Arcane Swordsage variant
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    to be honest, if the reason given for disallowing ToB was they thought it was too powerful, I would ask compared to what? if they say any of the spellcasters I would then show them how broken spellcasters could be just using core spells. as a level 1 wizard, i am not using true strike to kill the goblins, i am spamming daze or casting sleep and then watching the fighter or barbarian do clean up. especially spamming daze in pathfinder where 0 level spells are at will. my two other 0 level spells in pathfinder at level 1 would be disrupt undead and detect magic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasilidor View Post
    to be honest, if the reason given for disallowing ToB was they thought it was too powerful, I would ask compared to what? if they say any of the spellcasters I would then show them how broken spellcasters could be just using core spells. as a level 1 wizard, i am not using true strike to kill the goblins, i am spamming daze or casting sleep and then watching the fighter or barbarian do clean up. especially spamming daze in pathfinder where 0 level spells are at will. my two other 0 level spells in pathfinder at level 1 would be disrupt undead and detect magic.
    But ToB classes are Tier 3. It a decent classes nonetheless. So their anything but powerful.
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    Well really they're powerful, but not to powerful. For me that's just the right level.
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    RE readied maneuvers and flavor, there's always the Adaptive Style feat, which lets you change all your readied maneuvers as a full-round action. That seems perfectly reasonable from a real-world perspective of briefly withdrawing to change your stance and plan your next few moves. Plus, it's a legitimately fantastic feat for Swordsages even just mechanically, being a far more efficient way of recovering their expended maneuvers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasilidor View Post
    to be honest, if the reason given for disallowing ToB was they thought it was too powerful, I would ask compared to what? if they say any of the spellcasters I would then show them how broken spellcasters could be just using core spells. as a level 1 wizard, i am not using true strike to kill the goblins, i am spamming daze or casting sleep and then watching the fighter or barbarian do clean up. especially spamming daze in pathfinder where 0 level spells are at will. my two other 0 level spells in pathfinder at level 1 would be disrupt undead and detect magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by el minster View Post
    Well really they're powerful, but not to powerful. For me that's just the right level.
    As has been mentioned in the thread a couple of times already, just because this forum considers something to be perfectly balanced doesn't mean that they are for every table. At tables where high level wizards and fighters can play together without any balance issues the high optimization floor of the martial initiators will make them seem OP.

    Now, I'm not in favor of banning ToB, but I do realize that if you have a bunch of players with little to no interest in optimization and system's mastery*, introducing ToB without taking some steps to ensure everyone is at the floor level of ToB will cause some issues, and that for someone that plays constantly with a group like that, it just might not be worth the headache.

    *it could be argued that for a group like that, you might be better off switching to 5e, or another simpler system like FATE, but if everyone has decided they want to play DnD 3.5, it just means you'll need to 'balance content available to the table', as a certain poster here on this forum whose account is named for their eponymous wizard character would say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeTess View Post
    At tables where high level wizards and fighters can play together without any balance issues the high optimization floor of the martial initiators will make them seem OP.
    Man...I'm having a hard time even imagining that. Those are some sad, sad wizards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edea View Post
    Man...I'm having a hard time even imagining that. Those are some sad, sad wizards.
    The first table I ever played at had a monk, rogue, druid and ranger, and went to about level 12-ish? There where no meaningful balance issues between any of us as far as I remember, but we where all new to the game, so we where all at the optimization floor. I can definitely imagine some people never bothering to get enough system's mastery to ever grow beyond that, as I've played with people in other systems that even during session 10 still needed to be told how to make an attack roll (granted, that was Shadowrun, which is slightly more complicated than 3.5, but still).
    Last edited by DeTess; 2020-07-17 at 03:40 AM.
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    Best I see, ToB just give tools to martials, like the skills in RPGs or MMOs or MOBAs or however you want to call it.
    They even have cooldowns!!!
    Last edited by TheCount; 2020-07-17 at 04:39 AM.

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