OOTS #1204 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

It in fact borders on malicious compliance, because he's very likely to fail now.

I don't think that there's a malicious bone in Durkon's body.
Plus:
Minrah's got his back.

[Frozenstep]

The vibe I've been getting is from this book so far that the heroes are finally truly rallied, going in together. Their teamwork has been refined and they're no longer the party that can hardly execute a simple plan. They're focused and determined and united and...well, suddenly this last panel.

[understatement]

Minrah's got his back.

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't? She could try to Wind Walk away to warn the Order if it goes wrong...but the Order won't be able to reach Durkon in time either. And if they try to all-out fight, it will definitely draw Xykon's attention.

[masamune1]

If you look at the preceding comic, you can see Durkon looking off to the side for a moment.

I don't think he planned to seek out Redcloak or anything. I think he actually saw Redcloak standing right there, not too far away, and made an impulsive decision.

As to whether that is Lawful or not...doesn't really matter, because nobody is 100% their alignment (often, not even the gods), so making one non-Lawful choice in an impulsive moment doesn't mean much if you are Lawful most of the time (versus Miko, who was always teetering on the border of LN and LG imo).

[BaronOfHell]

I think Roy was right in that using the sending spell would have been a poor choice. Someone tries to go for the route of diplomacy by sending his voice without no risk apart from risking failing the attempt at diplomacy? RC would perhaps have ignored the attempt on this alone... now Durkon is there in person, he is risking his life just to speak with RC, then he must really believe himself he has something to offer that is worth listening to. Unless RC believes Durkon is some random encounter I guess?

[Aquillion]

But Durkon isn’t a Paladin, and I‘m fairly certain he doesn’t worship a lawful god.

I'd argue that it says that, assuming it is unlawful, that Durkon is not a robot and does not have to be 100% lawful at all times.

Even Paladins do not have to be 100% lawful at all times. In fact, while they have to maintain a lawful good alignment overall, the Paladin code very clearly places more emphasis on 'good' than on 'lawful':

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Likewise, the rules for falling state that a fallen Paladin is one who:

...ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct...

Paladins fall immediately for willingly committing an evil act, but not necessarily for a chaotic one - the second paragraph sets some general rules, but only willfully evil acts are called out as a specific red-line "do this once and fall" thing; other violations have to rise to the level of grossly violating the code before they make you fall. The implication is pretty clear that they're allowed to (though obviously not encouraged to) occasionally bend the rules in the service of good when it's absolutely necessary to do so, and may even be required to do so in situations where eg. telling the truth would be an unambiguously evil act.

Likewise, they're forbidden from associating with evil characters, but can associate with Chaotic ones just fine as long as they don't consistently offend the Paladin's moral code. Probably a good thing for O'Chul, since it seems very possible that MitD is Chaotic... not to mention all the Paladins who associated with Elan. They might get a headache from his antics, but they won't fall.

(Even just applied to evils, this rule is probably the most commonly houseruled part of the code, though, since it causes too many party conflicts and can become actively absurd if a Paladin is associating with an evil character in order to try and redeem them.)

[JonahFalcon]

So, has anyone noticed that Redcloak and the bugbear are going behind Xykon's back and relying information secretly behind a house? No? The single paid of footprints are a clue.

Durkon is a cleric of Thor and he does what THOR wants, not what Roy wants. Thor is Durkon's boss. Roy isn't.

[RatElemental]

That certainly took me by surprise. Rich does it again.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, has anyone noticed that Redcloak and the bugbear are going behind Xykon's back and relying information secretly behind a house?

Assumption of facts not in evidence. They could simply be exchanging a spell scroll. And there is nothing in that panel that says Xykon wasn't told.

[Fyraltari]

Assumption of facts not in evidence. They could simply be exchanging a spell scroll. And there is nothing in that panel that says Xykon wasn't told.

They are meeting behind a house. That looks hush-hush. Look at Redcloaks's footprints, he came from inside and walked towards the back.

[Mandor]

I mean, I feel bad for Roy, but only to a point.

Roy knew Thor had given Durkon a direct order on this point.
Roy knows Durkon is a cleric of Thor, and not a casual one.
Sure, Roy said "Don't do that, we'll lose the factor of surprise."

but um... Roy? You don't outrank Thor. Not to Durkon.
You should have KNOWN he'd either defy you or pull an end-run around what you said to get where Thor told him he needs to be.

[Mandor]

Also sure "Lets' talk to Redcloak after we deal with Xykon".

How plausible is it that they can deal with Xykon without being in a final fight to the death, and guarantee that Redcloak isn't killed in part of that?
Or so irrevocably committed to the fight that he'd even CONSIDER stopping to discuss things with Roy et al while the fight is going on?

If both Xykon and Redcloak are slinging spells against the order, I think it's about 0.000000000000001% chance to get Redcloak to agree to Thor's proposal.
I think Durkon believes the ONLY realistic chance he has to get Redcloak to agree, is to talk to him BEFORE it's a final fight to the death.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but if Durkon fails? He knows darn well this planet and all life on it will end up annihilated by the Snarl. And there will be just another planetary gravestone in the Astral plane, along with the MILLIONS of others.
This isn't just about whether or not the Order of the Stick lives or dies.
This is about how you best preserve the future of all future generations this planet will ever have.

[Jasdoif]

You should have KNOWN he'd either defy you or pull an end-run around what you said to get where Thor told him he needs to be.

Roy was probably expecting Durkon to actually defy him, as in openly refuse, if there was a conflict of interest. That said, seeing Redcloak out in the open like that looks like a opportunity that'd be lost if Durkon didn't take advantage of it immediately; Durkon may not have been intending to go behind below Roy's back until that moment.

It's also unclear if/how Durkon is going to try to preserve Roy's intent. I mean, "Roy didn't send me to meet with you now" and "Roy'd be pissed if he knew I was here" are both true statements; which could be construed to mean the rest of the Order isn't there.

[Hotu]

Am I the only one who thinks Durkon will cast Summon Proxy? We know that he's high enough level, since Durkon* was able to cast it and he was Durkon's level out of necessity... I just don't think that Durkon has the charisma to convince a wet paper bag, let alone the world's sunkest cost fallacy.

[understatement]

Am I the only one who thinks Durkon will cast Summon Proxy? We know that he's high enough level, since Durkon* was able to cast it and he was Durkon's level out of necessity... I just don't think that Durkon has the charisma to convince a wet paper bag, let alone the world's sunkest cost fallacy.

Summon Proxy can only be cast by High Priests, which is why Odin's priestess needed HPoH to verify his status using the spell.

Also, Durkon doesn't know about the sunk-cost part. No one (un)living, apart from Xykon, knows. He thinks Redcloak will be more Lawful than Evil.

[NobleCuriosity]

So, has anyone noticed that Redcloak and the bugbear are going behind Xykon's back and relying information secretly behind a house? No? The single paid of footprints are a clue.

I was going to say that a back of a house in direct view of the clearing the statue is in wouldn’t be very hidden, but after reviewing 1198, the one house that seems to fit what we see does actually appear to be fairly discreet location (and is indeed the back of a house).

Edit: but on the negative side, this is quite possibly “the one house Redcloak and Xykon kept going in and out of,” in which case Xykon would be not just close but within earshot.

Xykon overhearing Durkon try to sell this to Redcloak would be a decent way to force this to end badly without Redcloak having to make a genuine decision yet. That said, it seems almost a bit too disastrous—how in the world does Durkon plan to escape Xykon?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Pretty sure Xykon will notice the giant deity. And Xykon will take one look at some dwarf appearing out of nowhere and immediately reach the correct conclusion: Adventurers here to stop me.

[Dion]

I'd argue that it says that, assuming it is unlawful, that Durkon is not a robot and does not have to be 100% lawful at all times.

Agreed. I do think it’s a very interesting contrast from strip #200, though.

[Fyraltari]

About the "they can't be sure Redcloak would survive a fight" bit, they could always try to resurect him afterwards. True he might refuse but he does have amission so he might not.

Summon Proxy can only be cast by High Priests, which is why Odin's priestess needed HPoH to verify his status using the spell.

Also, Durkon doesn't know about the sunk-cost part. No one (un)living, apart from Xykon, knows. He thinks Redcloak will be more Lawful than Evil.

Also Summon Proxy is a glorified god telephone, it wouldn't allow Thor to hear or see Redcloak making conversation an impossibility.

[dancrilis]

About the "they can't be sure Redcloak would survive a fight" bit, they could always try to resurect him afterwards. True he might refuse but he does have amission so he might not.

They could try - but they know the Dark One is dubious about the other gods, it stands to reason his priests might refuse to be raised by the priest of a different god. So it is a risk - and given that Redcloak might be (I think it is likely he is) the only servant of the Dark One with access to 9th level spells if he dies and won't be raised then Thor's plan is finished before it begins.
From Redcloak's prespective it would seem to mean:
A) Xykon gives the cloak to Jirix and the plan continues.
B) Xykon is gone and so the plan is finished in the short term - he might as well let the next high priest of the Dark One give it a go.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, how likely would Redcloak consider the “oh hey maybe this guy is one of the dwarves Oona mentioned” theory? That’s probably going out of the window pretty soon, but it might be why he’s not Imploding Durkon as soon as he sees him - if only not to waste his spell slots.

[Dion]

Also Summon Proxy is a glorified god telephone, it wouldn't allow Thor to hear or see Redcloak making conversation an impossibility.

If Durkon could cast it, and if RedCloak would cast it, and if it works across pantheons, then Summon Proxy would allow TDO and Thor to communicate directly.

But I’m not sure how that would be of value right now, even IF all the preconditions were true.

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't?

I get the impression she’s quite good at punching.

She can probably punch things.

[understatement]

If Durkon could cast it, and if RedCloak would cast it, and if it works across pantheons, then Summon Proxy would allow TDO and Thor to communicate directly.

But I’m not sure how that would be of value right now, even IF all the preconditions were true.

And Xykon.

I get the impression she’s quite good at punching.

She can probably punch things.

Yup, these are dead dwarves. Dwarfs? Eh.

[Windscion]

I get the impression she’s quite good at punching.
She can probably punch things.

She carries her fists in her heart! (1132)

[sillymel]

Durkon, you're not Doctor Strange. I highly doubt "Redcloak, I've come to bargain" is gonna work.

[Fincher]

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't? She could try to Wind Walk away to warn the Order if it goes wrong...but the Order won't be able to reach Durkon in time either. And if they try to all-out fight, it will definitely draw Xykon's attention.

She's quite adept at overexplaining things.

[KorvinStarmast]

Minrah's great, but what can she do that Durkon can't?

I am a member of the Minrah fan club. Also, I don't think she's high enough cleric level to cast Wind Walk. Her Fighter levels are a thing.

[Hemoparty]

Wahaha! I was told Durkon was too Lawful to go behind Roy's back, but I knew better! I was expecting him to wait a little longer, but the Giant knows what he's doing.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have not looked forward to dialogue so much in my life.

I really hope it doesn't fail immediately. I want to see how Redcloak reacts. This is the juicy story stuff.

[The MunchKING]

Summon Proxy can only be cast by High Priests,

Like all Clerical spells, it's probably more a case of "are you powerful enough to cast it" and "Is your God/dess willing to give it to you" then "ONLY High priests can cast it".