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  1. - Top - End - #1471
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    'dependant on player skill' is extremely subjective though. Do you mean skill at list-building to include things that can score linebreaker / deploy scramblers? Skill at faction choice for double/triple shooting IF Eliminators scoring Assassinate or IF Dreads scoring Titanslayer? Until most factions are closer to parity, player skill as a whole gets diluted trying to level an uneven playing field. 'reliability at scoring' is also a non-starter. Some factions, like aeldari, can wisp all over the battlefield and score stuff other factions can not. Some factions can do objective-sitting better than others. Some factions CAN do stuff at the cost of playing like second-rate marines, and some factions have tricks / playstyles that just give up free VPs (Imperial Knights).

    The real issue is how borked Primaries are, because it puts a huge emphasis on secondaries that they shouldn't have.
    Yeah, there are a lot of different angles on player skill. I guess the angle I’m thinking about is ‘does choice of secondary meaningfully matter, or are there some that a skilled player should always pick because they can reliably score them’.

    This also ties into faction choice, ‘does choice of secondaries meaningfully change dependent on which faction you choose?’

    The current hypothesis, which I’m inclined to agree with, is no to both: there are some secondaries that are clearly better and you should nearly always pick (all other things being equal), and that choice is the same regardless of faction (which leads into Marines being best, as they are designed as all-rounders). This is bad for the game.

    But I’d be interested in seeing data on it. Ideally, the choice of best secondary should vary significantly based on the army you are playing and the army you are playing against, but I don’t expect that is the case atm?
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

  2. - Top - End - #1472
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Skill at faction choice for double/triple shooting IF Eliminators scoring Assassinate...
    When my Eliminators double-tap on Turn 1, they're getting Cut Off the Head.
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  3. - Top - End - #1473
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    LansXero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    When my Eliminators double-tap on Turn 1, they're getting Cut Off the Head.
    Potato, fortified tomato.

    ‘does choice of secondary meaningfully matter, or are there some that a skilled player should always pick because they can reliably score them’.

    This also ties into faction choice, ‘does choice of secondaries meaningfully change dependent on which faction you choose?’
    Depends on your level of play. Casual 'I play what I have, whats the best I can do with it' and 'I'll just buy 2k worth of models off ebay for next tournament" have entirely different list building restrictions that have nothing to do with objectives and all.

    But more to the point: you're looking at things backwards.

    You dont select a faction, then a list, then secondaries based off that. You read the mission packet and see what gives VPs. Then, off those, which is more likely / easier. Then of those, which factions can either deny them easier or achieve them better or ideally both. Then you tweak your list either to proactively focus on getting there, or reactively keep the enemy from getting there.

    So the existence of all secondaries first gets parsed through reliability then skill is in figuring out the puzzle of how to turn it into a certainty but in the context of the prevalent / expected meta which is the step everyone always forgets; its a game of chicken where people shift lists around to screw each other and leave them with dead objectives / dead points. But also, this ignores we're here because getting tied on Primaries is the default. If people could cinch a victory through Primaries alone then secondaries would matter way less; however, keeping 5/6 objectives under controll at all times to bring your oponents VP/round below 10 is stupid hard, so you cant count on that so back to secondaries it is.

  4. - Top - End - #1474
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    When my Eliminators double-tap on Turn 1, they're getting Cut Off the Head.
    Eliminators lost the ability to ignore Line of Sight, at least. Which might make Mortis Rounds more attractive?
    Last edited by Squark; 2020-10-12 at 07:07 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1475
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yellow-on-yellow would've been lame.
    I went with Martian Ironearth and Carroburg Crimson, with a drybrush of...Something. The red one.
    The correct answer would have been blue or purple crystals I think. I considered suggesting it. Something something colour theory.

    Was it possible to buy replacement rods for necron gauss weapons in other colours? I think I remember 3rd parties selling that years ago. Or heck, do they even do the glossy green translucent plastic you had to be so careful gluing in or you frosted over it with superglue. Caught many of our Necron newbs in 3rd/4th out.

    I never really realsied it but lucked into that the pink-purple-green-black "classic" scheme of Slaanesh sorta works on the opposite colour theory or however it goes. I was painting up old 3rd-4th ed Chaos Warrior metal figures (probably old champions of the gods models) for Chosen for WHFB and the colours I liked and ripped off old garish paint schemes worked really well together all of a sudden. Even when I was trying to go Slaansh OTT garish.

  6. - Top - End - #1476
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    'Sup nerds.

    New Thread...



    ...Now Get Outta Here!
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-12 at 08:16 AM.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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