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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    If Blast is going to kill hordes, why didn't Punisher cannons and the like kill hordes already? Seems like an overreaction.
    Because Punishers have no AP and are trash against non-hordes; meanwhile, battle cannons making max # of shots do wipe out stuff. However, since they cant fire blast in melee tagging vehicles with 1 grot will continue to be the same, as you cant even fallback and shoot anymore even if you fly. So its mostly a wash, despite all the very many changes.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Horde's dead, Jim.
    If there a way that I was even possibly on the fence for hordes being viable in 9th Ed., not being able to conga-line pushes me right off.
    Each unit also needs twice as many models as it did before, to have the same effectiveness. Any unit that was doing that, was already at max-size, and now it needs to double? Umm...
    It's because Space Marines can't do hordes. And Space Marines are basically mandated to always be top tier, so hordes have to suck in comparison.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    In principal, I think the change is merited, as the enormous conga lines are time consuming and very... game-y. However, I'm not crazy about the coherency casualties. It feels like a very frustrating mechanic, especially if one player is really good at positioning line of sight such that they can cut a unit in half.
    Honestly is it any less gamey for a single sniper shot to remove 50 men from the battlefield because everyone is utterly terrified without two buddies next to them? Also it doesn't even work out the way they're advertising, because it just means you park in a smaller zone.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    If Blast is going to kill hordes, why didn't Punisher cannons and the like kill hordes already? Seems like an overreaction.
    Because only Guard have Punisher cannons and everyone else's closest equivalent has much less shots or is on a squishier chassis. Meanwhile, pretty much everyone had a Pie Plate back in the day, and most of them are rather easy to get now.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Because only Guard have Punisher cannons and everyone else's closest equivalent has much less shots or is on a squishier chassis. Meanwhile, pretty much everyone had a Pie Plate back in the day, and most of them are rather easy to get now.
    Having now played Necromunda and seen the pie plate in action, I seriously don't understand why they removed it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Having now played Necromunda and seen the pie plate in action, I seriously don't understand why they removed it.
    1. Scatter dice causing extreme variability and unreliability.
    2. The same weapon ranging between 30 hits on a gaunt squad and 5 hits on marines unfairly punishes some armies.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    As mentioned, wrapping isnt particularly trivial, more so when many transports can fly. If you let it happen then you are doing something wrong; having a pocket 'get out from a noob moment' card just feels handholdy, not better. 'making the enemy spend that CP' is a terrible argument as well; if they get enough use out of it to be worthwhile then they will use it, and advance their gameplan proportionately to then negate whatever advantage you got by wrapping; otherwise they wont bother. Of course, newbs that raged about will just overuse it and lose a bunch of models on 1s and 2s so "feel bad" will continue.
    The difference is, it becomes a thing they can respond to and a direct result of their own actions: psychologically, a feeling of agency is important.

    Currently, your unit gets wrapped. After taking a moment to understand what just happened and go ‘that’s stupid’ you realise there is nothing you can do, get frustrated, but have to move on. You’ll be more careful next time. But maybe you also add it to the list of things you dislike about the game that may accumulate to drive you away.

    In 9th, your unit gets wrapped. “Ah,” you think, “I could get out of that”. But doing so requires using CP, so you’ve got to weigh it up against that other stratagem you were looking forward to using; which is better for my game plan? Maybe you use it, maybe you don’t, either way, you’ll be more careful next time. But because you have agency over it, it doesn’t get added to the list of things that may drive you away from the game. It’s also more skill testing, which is a lot of the argument for allowing things like wrapping, but the skill being tested is not just ‘are you aware of this advanced gameplay technique’ but ‘how do you respond to this happening to you.’

    What’s also interesting is that, if they wanted rid of wrapping so as to be noob friendly, they could have allowed units to move out of being wrapped without penalty. They didn’t, therefore it’s clearly an intentional part of the game, which is one of the other major complaints about stuff like this. A thing being clearly endorsed by the rules is better than it simply being allowed: it shifts it from ‘this is an exploit’ to ‘this is a thing I was unaware of’.

    Finally, having the stratagem allows newer players an opportunity to realise it exists before they experience it: reading the rulebook they’ll think ‘why is this stratagem here’ and become aware of the possibility. Even if they then fall foul of it, they will be aware that they should have known better: again, agency is better in making a thing feel like a positive learning experience.

    Ultimately, the experienced player doesn’t lose out much from the change: wrapping is still possible, it just needs to be done bearing in mind that there is a way out (which has its own downsides). The new player however gains massively from a psychological angle in making it an accepted part of the game.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The difference is, it becomes a thing they can respond to and a direct result of their own actions: psychologically, a feeling of agency is important.

    Currently, your unit gets wrapped. After taking a moment to understand what just happened and go ‘that’s stupid’ you realise there is nothing you can do, get frustrated, but have to move on. You’ll be more careful next time. But maybe you also add it to the list of things you dislike about the game that may accumulate to drive you away.

    In 9th, your unit gets wrapped. “Ah,” you think, “I could get out of that”. But doing so requires using CP, so you’ve got to weigh it up against that other stratagem you were looking forward to using; which is better for my game plan? Maybe you use it, maybe you don’t, either way, you’ll be more careful next time. But because you have agency over it, it doesn’t get added to the list of things that may drive you away from the game. It’s also more skill testing, which is a lot of the argument for allowing things like wrapping, but the skill being tested is not just ‘are you aware of this advanced gameplay technique’ but ‘how do you respond to this happening to you.’

    What’s also interesting is that, if they wanted rid of wrapping so as to be noob friendly, they could have allowed units to move out of being wrapped without penalty. They didn’t, therefore it’s clearly an intentional part of the game, which is one of the other major complaints about stuff like this. A thing being clearly endorsed by the rules is better than it simply being allowed: it shifts it from ‘this is an exploit’ to ‘this is a thing I was unaware of’.

    Finally, having the stratagem allows newer players an opportunity to realise it exists before they experience it: reading the rulebook they’ll think ‘why is this stratagem here’ and become aware of the possibility. Even if they then fall foul of it, they will be aware that they should have known better: again, agency is better in making a thing feel like a positive learning experience.

    Ultimately, the experienced player doesn’t lose out much from the change: wrapping is still possible, it just needs to be done bearing in mind that there is a way out (which has its own downsides). The new player however gains massively from a psychological angle in making it an accepted part of the game.
    Psychologically speaking, the answer is the whole 'Get Good'. As frustrating as it can be to hear that, wrapping is one of the cases where it's a completely legitimate response. It's not some combo your army doesn't have access to, neither is it some unit or role your army can't really compete in. Wrapping is something nearly every single army can do, and same with protecting against wrapping.

    In 9th, wrapping is not only much harder to do due to the new coherency rules, the units best at doing it are weaker (aka Hordes), plus it isn't as effective as it used to be due to tanks being able to shoot in combat. Add in the new stratagem, and wrapping basically becomes pointless. Yes, you get to burn 2 CP, and yes that is valuable. But most of the time, it'll be worth it to spend those CP. Either the unit wrapped is very powerful and you want it to fall back so it can be useful, or the unit doing the wrapping is very scary, and you want to fall back so you can kill it.

    All told, it's a massive loss for experienced players in a move that caters to new players who could have just learned to be better players. Mind you this isn't the first time they've done this. I remember the old days where you couldn't premeasure. And there was a definite edge in being experienced enough to judge the distance between units just by looking at it. And when they allow premeasuring, the game then required less skill in order to be good.
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  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Hello, it is me, the person who is not as good and plays 40k maybe once a month casually.

    I like being able to premeasure things, and also please let us not pretend wrapping is some arcane skill. My friend who recently picked up orcs figured out how it worked and how it was important in his first four games. And the answer on when to do it, which is "why wouldn't you?"

    I'm all for skill testing, but let's test your game skills, not pretend that an ability to understand basic game concepts is somehow advanced play, or know how long two feet is.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    If Blast is going to kill hordes, why didn't Punisher cannons and the like kill hordes already? Seems like an overreaction.
    Because 'horde' is a non-specific term, and, for some reason, when people think of them, they still think of 10-man Guard squads, instead of...20-man squads of models with Inuvlnerable saves and/or ignore wounds.
    (As previously mentioned, playing Guard as a horde has been a dead build for a long, long time).

    GW needs to rework entire Factions, because Punishers should be good at killing hordes, if, number of shots was all that mattered. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

    Tzaangors are T4 with an Invulnerable save.
    Plaguebearers (are T4) and Daemonettes have invulnerable saves, ignore wounds, and come back.
    Poxwalkers ignore wounds and come back.
    Termagants ignore wounds, and are -1 to hit (IIRC).
    Guardians have a 4+ Invulnerable save and ignore wounds, and -1 to hit.
    Cultists ignore wounds
    etc.

    ...And the piece de resistance is that all of them either mitigate Morale, or don't take Morale tests at all.

    It isn't 'hordes' that are the problem.
    It's that GW needs to rework entire Factions, because the game isn't played in a vacuum, and hordes get buffs - some of which are very, very good.

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    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-06-30 at 01:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraunograf View Post
    Hello, it is me, the person who is not as good and plays 40k maybe once a month casually.

    I like being able to premeasure things, and also please let us not pretend wrapping is some arcane skill. My friend who recently picked up orcs figured out how it worked and how it was important in his first four games. And the answer on when to do it, which is "why wouldn't you?"

    I'm all for skill testing, but let's test your game skills, not pretend that an ability to understand basic game concepts is somehow advanced play, or know how long two feet is.
    Neither is the ability to eyeball distances. It's just a matter of practice. I think I managed to pick it up by the time I was a teenager.

    It's tough to find the right word for it. Because yeah, it's not complicated. Neither are using stratagems together to set up combos. And yet some people don't pick it up until they've personally experienced it or been told about it. Typically beginners to the game have the most trouble with stuff like that.
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  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Neither is the ability to eyeball distances. It's just a matter of practice. I think I managed to pick it up by the time I was a teenager.
    I got it pretty quickly:
    "Okay [Cheesegear], the board is 48" across, and 72" long. The middle is [here]."

    Is how it was explained to me.

    It's tough to find the right word for it. Because yeah, it's not complicated.
    Nothing about 8th Ed. was complicated. The core rules were four pages long for a reason. The only complicated part of 8th Ed., was remembering your Faction's rules, and what Stratagems you had in your pocket.

    The 'complicated' part of 8th Ed., was getting people to understand that 'Removing your opponent's models' wasn't really a win condition. Or, rather, if you are going to use 'removing your opponent's models' as a way to win the game, you have to do the bulk of your damage in <2 turns. Ripping your ultimate combo off on Turn 4...Is three turns too late.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-06-30 at 02:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Honestly is it any less gamey for a single sniper shot to remove 50 men from the battlefield because everyone is utterly terrified without two buddies next to them?
    Well, yes... because that is exactly how sniper fire works in reality. You lose your buddy and maybe someone important in your troop and suddenly the entire troop is hugging terrain and bellying their way out of harms way. (actually, is that some kind of Unit Coherency shenanigans? I first though it referred to a failed morale test)

    While a game like 40k, and most wargames, can't exactly and shouldn't try to be too deep simulators, you have to accept that it *is* on some level supposed to reflect some reality.

    I can't specifically speak to what a conga lien in modern 40k would be and how it be beneifcial, but unless it used for a unit walking down a valley, along a stream or on a jungle path, it probably isn't the right answer.

    I forget exactly which edition had the lunacy in the rules where planting 2 infantry lines behind each other prevent you from charging line 1 as then you broke the rules of being too close to line 2.

    Similarly, and again, I only see this mentioned so I may not understand it right, but having 1 grot putting a hand on the tracks of a Landrraider to results in, nope can't shoot, can't do nuthin seems utterly bonkers. Because we know that's not what happens in a situation like that.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
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    You forgot to mention the part about the fact that 25 PL has been roughly equated with 500 points in matched play...

    ...and a 3-man squad with 24" Assault 2 Meltas on BS 3+ and Space Marine stratagems is worth about 5PL/100 points.

    The meta is tanks. Except Space Marines have this abomination to kill that for less than the cost of a Leman Russ. And they can deep strike, either because Raven Guard or Strategic Reserve.

    So really, the meta is Space Marines. Only ever space marines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    GW needs to rework entire Factions, because Punishers should be good at killing hordes, if, number of shots was all that mattered. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

    Tzaangors are T4 with an Invulnerable save.
    Plaguebearers (are T4) and Daemonettes have invulnerable saves, ignore wounds, and come back.
    Poxwalkers ignore wounds and come back.
    Termagants ignore wounds, and are -1 to hit (IIRC).
    Guardians have a 4+ Invulnerable save and ignore wounds, and -1 to hit.
    Cultists ignore wounds
    etc.

    ...And the piece de resistance is that all of them either mitigate Morale, or don't take Morale tests at all.

    It isn't 'hordes' that are the problem.
    It's that GW needs to rework entire Factions, because the game isn't played in a vacuum, and hordes get buffs - some of which are very, very good.
    Termagants don't inherently ignore wounds or have -1 to hit. They're 4 point bodies with a 6+ armor save and synapse as their defensive abilities. They can get 6+++ from Leviathan and -1 to hit from Malanthrope/Venomthropes, and individual units can get 5+++/more negatives to hit from powers.

    And 200 of them can still evaporate from the table in an instant if you don't play cagey with them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Even aside from that, hordes can be good, even with Morale and Blast weapons.
    [One Week Later]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    So really, the meta is Space Marines. Only ever space marines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Termagants don't inherently ignore wounds or have -1 to hit. They're 4 point bodies with a 6+ armor save and synapse as their defensive abilities. They can get 6+++ from Leviathan and -1 to hit from Malanthrope/Venomthropes, and individual units can get 5+++/more negatives to hit from powers.
    So what you're saying is, is that Termagants have -1 to hit (at least), and ignore wounds?
    Sounds like we're saying the same thing.

    EDIT: Also, Termagants can come back as long as the whole unit isn't wiped.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Another way of thinking about it: is this thing that can be done in the rules a bug or a feature? The biggest frustrations for newer or more casual players is when they interpret something their opponent does as a bug: “you shouldn’t be able to do that”. So when something comes up that looks like that, the games designers need to decide, is this a bug, or a feature? And one way to make it clear something is a feature is to have rules that interact with it.

    We’ve recently had two examples of this, conga lines and wrapping. Clearly, conga lines are a bug, so have been patched out of the game, whereas wrapping is a feature, so has rules added to interact with it.

    Part of the calculation in deciding if something is a bug or a feature is whether it is adding enough to the game. Guessed ranges is an example of this: it was designed as a feature, but didn’t actually add enough to the game to keep, so was removed. Very few rules are individually complex, but they all add to the complexity load. Guessed ranges are good if, such as in Titanicus, they are a core part of the experience: Titanicus is very much a game about positioning and guessing firing arcs, so it has a good place there. It’s less good in 40k, hence its removal.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    [One Week Later]
    I will cheerily admit that, barring the revelation that Fall Back is now a stratagem rather than an automatic action or something else dramatically different, Horde armies have well and truly lost their advantages. They lose a lot with the smaller board size, coherency changes, changes to vehicles, and creep. Doubly so with the fact that I believe it was spoilered that recon-equivalent can't be held with a unit straddling both sides of the board.

    I will say that it wasn't blast weapons and morale that did it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    EDIT: Also, Termagants can come back as long as the whole unit isn't wiped.
    Incorrect. Orks can come back as long as their whole unit isn't wiped. Termagants can come back only after being wiped, if you have the reinforcement points for them.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    While a game like 40k, and most wargames, can't exactly and shouldn't try to be too deep simulators, you have to accept that it *is* on some level supposed to reflect some reality.
    Yes, the SETTING's reality. So whatever way spáce elves, undead robots or mutant fungus work has what basis in modern 2020 combat?

    Similarly, and again, I only see this mentioned so I may not understand it right, but having 1 grot putting a hand on the tracks of a Landrraider to results in, nope can't shoot, can't do nuthin seems utterly bonkers. Because we know that's not what happens in a situation like that.
    Hello, Im a Nightspinner. My main weapon is blast now, so if a grot puts a hand IN THE EMPTY AIR BELOW ME I cant shoot even if I fall back. How are you, isnt this very realistic new system super awesome because its new?


    Hello, it is me, the person who is not as good and plays 40k maybe once a month casually.

    I like being able to premeasure things, and also please let us not pretend wrapping is some arcane skill. My friend who recently picked up orcs figured out how it worked and how it was important in his first four games. And the answer on when to do it, which is "why wouldn't you?"
    yeah but thats the point. Teens and casuals are already figuring out this stuff from reading and playing a couple of games. Then what baseline of player are they aiming for that this is a "feel bad moment" for them when even total beginners and 1-a-month players admit its not hard to do / avoid?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So whatever way spáce elves, undead robots or mutant fungus work has what basis in modern 2020 combat?
    All of it. It's the only thing we know. It's what the designers did when they wrote the rules and it's what people do when they look at the rules.

    You can try and bend it all into pretended unreasonabless all you want, but every player can immediately tell if rules is totally off the wall bonkers.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Incorrect. Orks can come back as long as their whole unit isn't wiped. Termagants can come back only after being wiped, if you have the reinforcement points for them.
    Or you can restore units that aren't wiped if you brought an expensive and generally useless HQ that no one does.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Or you can restore units that aren't wiped if you brought an expensive and generally useless HQ that no one does.
    Tervigons provide:
    - Synapse
    - Psychic Powers
    - More Termagants
    It's literally everything you want.

    Tervigons are extremely good when your win conditions revolve around Objectives.

    Unfortunately, at the tail-end of 8th Ed., Space Marines are by far the dominant Faction in the game - and show signs of accelerating into 9th, rather than slowing down.
    And one of the reasons Space Marines are so dominant, is 3x3 Eliminators in every single list ever written, which means that there's no point putting any T<7, single-model unit on the board, unless it can ignore wounds.

    i.e;
    Space Marines didn't need Vanguard units.
    Space Marines didn't need a new Codex.
    Space Marines didn't need extra Supplements.
    ...Space Marines ruined 8th Ed.

    Y'know, 'cause for ~18 months Space Marines weren't the top Faction and 8th Ed. was the best version of the game I've ever played? How awful. Whole system needs a redesign, obviously.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Y'know, 'cause for ~18 months Space Marines weren't the top Faction and 8th Ed. was the best version of the game I've ever played? How awful. Whole system needs a redesign, obviously.
    I remember when 8th edition started, you took a week or so adjusting to Marines suddenly being near bottom of the meta. But adjust you did as now you seem to look back fondly on those times. And now that the very rules of the game are shifting to benefit Marines you hate it.

    When the person who has the most to gain from the new rules hates the new rules, the new rules might not be so good.

    Seen some talk of how the cohesion rules stops power gamers abusing the spirit of the rules and how the game was better without tournaments and being a beer and pretzels thing. Got me thinking this is like a group of beer and pretzels players imposing their collection of house rules on the new guy, except this is the makers of the game forcing this on everyone.

    Maybe thinking of buying a bunch of the 8th edition codexs and just keeping playing 8th. I am not near any proper game store, playing out of my basement, which means I can play any edition I happen to have the rules for. Get the 8th edition codexs quickly before they go OoP and cost a pile more to find.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Tervigons provide:
    - Synapse
    - Psychic Powers
    - More Termagants
    It's literally everything you want.

    Tervigons are extremely good when your win conditions revolve around Objectives.
    Tervigons were hideously overcosted and had several other flaws:
    -Their respawn only replaced missing Termagants, so kill all 30, and you'd respawn nothing. Spawning a new unit cost points.
    -You could only spawn basic Termagants, so no weapon upgrades or Hormagants
    -When it died, it'd kill a bunch of Termagants, because of the above, often more Termagants then it actually managed to spawn in the first place.
    -Had no invulnerable save, so was pathetically easy to kill.

    It is seriously better to take a Hive Tyrant with Heavy Venom cannon. Not only does it have actual melee and shooting options, it's also:
    -Cheaper in points
    -Has better Synapse
    -Has an invulnerable save
    -Has more psychic powers
    -Doesn't hurt your own army when it dies.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Well, yes... because that is exactly how sniper fire works in reality. You lose your buddy and maybe someone important in your troop and suddenly the entire troop is hugging terrain and bellying their way out of harms way. (actually, is that some kind of Unit Coherency shenanigans? I first though it referred to a failed morale test)

    While a game like 40k, and most wargames, can't exactly and shouldn't try to be too deep simulators, you have to accept that it *is* on some level supposed to reflect some reality.

    I can't specifically speak to what a conga lien in modern 40k would be and how it be beneifcial, but unless it used for a unit walking down a valley, along a stream or on a jungle path, it probably isn't the right answer.

    I forget exactly which edition had the lunacy in the rules where planting 2 infantry lines behind each other prevent you from charging line 1 as then you broke the rules of being too close to line 2.

    Similarly, and again, I only see this mentioned so I may not understand it right, but having 1 grot putting a hand on the tracks of a Landrraider to results in, nope can't shoot, can't do nuthin seems utterly bonkers. Because we know that's not what happens in a situation like that.
    Except they're not hugging terrain, they're literally dropping dead.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Tervigons provide:
    - Synapse
    - Psychic Powers
    - More Termagants
    It's literally everything you want.
    There have been a few events in early-mid 8th edition where Gaunt heavy lists did run a Tervigon with the Kronos gunline, but it's fallen out of favor with modern gaunt-carpet lists for a couple reasons:

    1. It's not a Character.
    2. If everything in your list is T3-4 or a character, then anything paying a premium for anti-tank weapons is getting ripped off, leading to extensive effective-point-advantage. This is how the gaunt carpet list wins. When your list includes exactly one T7 Tervigon without Character protection, it is a giant neon flashing sign to blow up the bug that self-destructs your army when it dies.
    3. It costs 180 points and needs to survive for 5 turns to make back its points in termagants. The sporocyst only needs 3 turns to make its points back in spores, and also does not actively hurt your army when it dies, does not attract fire like nothing else.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Except they're not hugging terrain, they're literally dropping dead.
    No, they're not. They're being removed as casualties, but you get none of the benefits of actually killing them. It's a subtle difference, yes, but it's still there. For example, they probably don't count for Kill Point objectives.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    All of it. It's the only thing we know. It's what the designers did when they wrote the rules and it's what people do when they look at the rules.
    Wat. There are literally dozens of novels written about the setting and how conflict, engagements, tactics and more look in the setting. What are you even talking about?

    You can try and bend it all into pretended unreasonabless all you want, but every player can immediately tell if rules is totally off the wall bonkers.
    Based on the setting's assumptions, not your made up scale of 'realism'. Orks run at things to chop them with axes; marines ignore g forces to burn through the atmosphere in metal containers, WWI infantry fight 20m tall robots that use giant chainsaws. Its all expected to have internal logic and coherence, but thats verosimilitude according to the setting; the idea of "an army" or "modern warfare" has no place in the game because it was never intended to correlate or represent it. For example:

    Well, yes... because that is exactly how sniper fire works in reality. You lose your buddy and maybe someone important in your troop and suddenly the entire troop is hugging terrain and bellying their way out of harms way.
    Yet this is sooo very important that anyone in a position of leadership is blinged out to hell with as many pendants, trophys, icons or markers as they can fit on themselves. Because sniper fire matters in 40k, every single commander and high value target marks themselves hugely so they are easy to identifiy and then be killed, right? Because its so very similar to current warfare doctrine already, right?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Tervigons provide:
    - Synapse
    - Psychic Powers
    - More Termagants
    It's literally everything you want.
    It's literally nothing I want, a giant target that will get picked off in no time at all that will do nothing effectively. Better off with ANY other character for less cost, you'll get something effective (though Prime's kind of need you to run warrior lists to be of any use). The only unique thing it offers is more gants, but why bother when you can take a cheaper HQ and simply start with those same gants and usually some kind of better synergy, ability to kill things, maybe a -1 to hit to the enemy, or a +1 to certain units. Hell, I'll take a Swarmlord over one, they're more expensive but will at least do something useful like slingshot genestealers one round then go wreck face the next.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Yet this is sooo very important that anyone in a position of leadership is blinged out to hell with as many pendants, trophys, icons or markers as they can fit on themselves. Because sniper fire matters in 40k, every single commander and high value target marks themselves hugely so they are easy to identifiy and then be killed, right? Because its so very similar to current warfare doctrine already, right?
    Tau's Mirrorcodex explicitly points out how stupid the Imperium is for exactly this.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Tau's Mirrorcodex explicitly points out how stupid the Imperium is for exactly this.
    Which is itself demonstrating how the Tau are still fundamentally wrong about the universe. There are two (in-universe) reasons for the way war works in 40k: Orks and the warp.

    Orks are the most prolific and aggressive race in the galaxy, so if your tactics don't work on them you'll never make it past stage 1. They don't care about casualties until 90% of them are dead, shrug at getting limbs removed, and if one makes it into CC with you he'll happily butcher (and eat) your whole squad. They possess a myriad technologies and pyschic powers that all help leverage these advantages: trukks and bikes to deploy at ludicrous speed over all terrain, teleporters to drop them directly into your face, and forcefields to protect against heavy firepower. Orks are the reason chainswords exist and get given to every Sergeant: stab an ork with a normal sword and he won't even notice, you must Rip And Tear Until It's Done. But this is just background noise compared to the other reason.

    The universe is a thin layer of physicality, over a seething mass of the warp. The warp is magic. And the warp says "swords are cool". Guns don't work as well as they should in the 40k setting, because reality says they won't. It doesn't matter what tactics you use, your odds of success will get boosted if you use swords. The most often used name for this tendency is "Khorne"; though it has sentient aspects, it's mostly a probability bend in law of physics. Daemons are an acute symptom: guns simply don't work as well at banishing them as they should, because it's as much a contest of Will as it is a physical one, and nothing says "get rekt" more than a hammer to the face.

    There's a reason the Tau's greatest hero is the one wielding a sword, wearing red.
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