Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

[Forum Explorer]

So I just started getting back into the game right when 9th edition cam out, and I've already had a game where I recently lost an entire squad of sisters because a Sister Superior had the tip of her chain sword poking out through a door I can only agree something real funky is going on with LoS and I'm not sure I entirely like the lack of fixing it in 9th.

They did fix it a little. To draw LoS through some terrain you have to draw a line of effect to part of their base. If the line of effect goes through the terrain, then the terrain's effect comes into play (blocking LoS entirely or -1 to hit). Unfortunately if you are actually in the terrain then they just need to see any part of the model.

[LansXero]

Anything we have right now is just speculation. We know that the app is planned to launch same day as 9e (in two weeks) and that's about all.


Honestly, at this point I just come into the thread to see how Lans and Cheese are claiming everything is dead in the game and we're all doomed.

Sure, what do I know, right?





No Army Builder at launch, codes with physical / digital book only, access to builder and codices under subscription paywall.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-need-to-know/

You're obviously free to like it or dislike it, but dont assume Im always talking out my ass, thank you.

[Avaris]

App is about what I was expecting in terms of cost and split between paid for and premium content. Having all of the 8th edition codexes available to subscribers seems good for encouraging uptake, and the cost (£3.99, which currently equates to $5) is one I am willing to pay. Obviously, that will vary person to person: my upper limit was £5. Good to have confirmation rules will be kept up to date for errata etc, would be worthless otherwise.

[LansXero]

App is about what I was expecting in terms of cost and split between paid for and premium content. Having all of the 8th edition codexes available to subscribers seems good for encouraging uptake, and the cost (£3.99, which currently equates to $5) is one I am willing to pay. Obviously, that will vary person to person: my upper limit was £5. Good to have confirmation rules will be kept up to date for errata etc, would be worthless otherwise.

So long as you keep buying codices, that is. Otherwise I guess you can pay 5$/month to play 8th?

Then of course, BattleScribe Premium is 2$/year for... well, to be nice I guess and to be able to save favorite units and throw custom names on them :D. Otherwise its free for everything the GW app does

[Avaris]

So long as you keep buying codices, that is. Otherwise I guess you can pay 5$/month to play 8th?

Then of course, BattleScribe Premium is 2$/year for... well, to be nice I guess and to be able to save favorite units and throw custom names on them :D. Otherwise its free for everything the GW app does

I mean, I was going to buy the codexes I need anyway, so this is an outright upgrade to my experience, as it keeps things up to date rather than having to navigate FAQ. I personally don’t use Battlescribe, as I believe it is reasonable to pay for the content produced rather than stealing it, but that is an individual decision everyone can make for themselves.

[Turalisj]

You're obviously free to like it or dislike it, but dont assume Im always talking out my ass, thank you.

Kindly don't put words into my mouth, yeah?

$5/month is about what I expected and everything else is in line with their AoS app, except for the price point. We also don't know if we can just buy the codex digitally.

They also aren't making you pay. If you think the army builder will be worth it (and if it's like Azyr, it will be, battlescribe chugs badly when loading marine rosters) and assumingly it'll have a quick reference for rules in it.

[LeSwordfish]

I can see ir being really useful for those cases where you have a whole book and you only want one page of rules (rules that you know, you just need a reference).

Also naming no names but having your wild pronouncements proved right doesn't mean you were actually acting on evidence, it means your guess was lucky.

[Dragonus45]

I mean, I was going to buy the codexes I need anyway, so this is an outright upgrade to my experience, as it keeps things up to date rather than having to navigate FAQ. I personally don’t use Battlescribe, as I believe it is reasonable to pay for the content produced rather than stealing it, but that is an individual decision everyone can make for themselves.

I mean battlescribe, and tabletop sim actually, did wonders for me and a few friends getting back into the game. The me dropping three hundred bucks at the local warhammer store the other month kind of wonder. Having the ability to check this stuff out and see what 8th looked like without a high upfront cost paid off for them in the long run. And while this app will be nice for keeping whatever codex I settle on for 9th, probably still sisters really, up to date I see no reason to pay extra for the stuff the app has locked behind a subscription. Paying to do army building though, the ability to "reference rules fast"? Yea. No. If your subscription model relies on locking off basic features that should already be part of a purchase and selling it back to me I'll stick to a free legal alternative.

[Avaris]

I mean battlescribe, and tabletop sim actually, did wonders for me and a few friends getting back into the game. The me dropping three hundred bucks at the local warhammer store the other month kind of wonder. Having the ability to check this stuff out and see what 8th looked like without a high upfront cost paid off for them in the long run. And while this app will be nice for keeping whatever codex I settle on for 9th, probably still sisters really, up to date I see no reason to pay extra for the stuff the app has locked behind a subscription. Paying to do army building though, the ability to "reference rules fast"? Yea. No. If your subscription model relies on locking off basic features that should already be part of a purchase and selling it back to me I'll stick to a free legal alternative.

I agree some level of rules being available would be better. I think my ideal would be extending the 'free rules with a codex' model to be 'free rules with a unit purchase'. Buy the unit, get its rules for free. If you want rules for the whole army, buy the codex.

[Dragonus45]

I agree some level of rules being available would be better. I think my ideal would be extending the 'free rules with a codex' model to be 'free rules with a unit purchase'. Buy the unit, get its rules for free. If you want rules for the whole army, buy the codex.

I think that might not work, since that would require you to buy new boxes of almost everything even if you already own it, and there would also be issues of existing stock already available in stores but not carrying a code causing headaches. Better would be a system where if I buy a codex, I should be able to "reference rules fast" as they put it by default. Same for building an army with units from that codex really. That should just be the available default.

[LeSwordfish]

Wait, are they not doing the thing in the AOS app where all warscrolls are free? That seems like a misstep.

[Squark]

Wait, are they not doing the thing in the AOS app where all warscrolls are free? That seems like a misstep.

Yeah, that feels like a missed opportunity. While some datasheets are a bit more complex than their AoS counterparts, it still makes things mucb more accessible, and allows players to easily look up the rules for units from other armies (an important thing if you want to be remotely competitive).

[LansXero]

The thing is, if you use the app but your opponent doesnt then its the same as nothing unless you buy every codex to be up to date on THEIR errata / strats / etc. Because while you'll have the 8th edition version and your codices will update as they need, stuff you havent bought will lag behind and you'll have this weird mismatch of uptodate and not really codices.

Codes with codex purchase? Sure.
Subscription? Sure
Both? Its a bit much
No in-app purchase of pure codes, nor 'everything in one go updated forever' bundle at a huge discount? Dead to me.

Still in the air: Device limits, platform limits and actual update speed. Azyr has been behind battlescribe several times, so the whole "updated the minute rules release" isnt exactly true; having to keep separate accounts for each device / each member of a household will sour people on it as well

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

I did get pretty excited when I saw that all 8th edition codexes were available on the subscription, but not being able to access the content on a PC is a killer for me - I won't be able to read anything that long on my phone. And knowing that they'll all phase out eventually is a bummer. I'll pass on this one, it's not giving me anything that I can't do on my own.

Re: Battlescribe, I feel justified using it given that I bought the relevant codex/army books. Heck, I even paid for the supplements and 2019 Chapter Approved (getting to use it exactly twice, thanks Covid). It's basically just a calculator - it's even slightly easier for me to find the rules I need in my books because I know exactly where they are, then to flip through several printout pages. But ymmv, as it always does.

Blip blorp. This new edition's a real mixed bag, eh?

[Cheesegear]

Also naming no names but having your wild pronouncements proved right doesn't mean you were actually acting on evidence

...I mean, depends on the prediction, doesn't it?

But if you follow two lines of evidence:
a) New GW is the same as Old GW, and
b) Paid+Sub is the worst business model for the consumer, since it makes the most money for the business - not just 'a lot', but 'the most'.

Pretty sure you can come up with something that GW would do.

As I've said before; There's no downside to predicting negative circumstances:
a) If you're right, you're right. (I mean, the downside is 'Congratulations! Everything sucks! ...You win?' )
b) If you're wrong, Good.

[LansXero]

As I've said before; There's no downside to predicting negative circumstances:
a) If you're right, you're right. (I mean, the downside is 'Congratulations! Everything sucks! ...You win?' )
b) If you're wrong, Good.

et tu, casual from downunder?

I clearly spelled out Azyr was the precedent, so it was never likely to be non-subscription. But, AoS warscrolls are free, 40k Datasheets are not, so you need to not compete with the physical books (same reason digital copies cost the same) so being a code with codex purchase was the clearest route.

As for army builder not being available on launch, well, they promised it for 8th a couple of years ago and you see how that went.

[Avaris]

As for army builder not being available on launch, well, they promised it for 8th a couple of years ago and you see how that went.

Did they? I don’t remember that... but having looked back online I’ve found an article from 2018 referring to an upcoming Warhammer 40,000 app as an addition to combat roster, so I guess you’re right! https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, Indomitus sold out in ten minutes in the UK. US preorders coming up pretty soon. Word is that they're holding back about 20 copies per GW store to sell in store on release day, though, so don't go for the scalpers just yet.

[Destro_Yersul]

Well, Indomitus sold out in ten minutes in the UK. US preorders coming up pretty soon. Word is that they're holding back about 20 copies per GW store to sell in store on release day, though, so don't go for the scalpers just yet.

I wonder, sometimes, if there's any reason GW can't use pre-order numbers in order to tell them how much to produce. Why guess how many you need, when you can just make as many as people order?

[Renegade Paladin]

I wonder, sometimes, if there's any reason GW can't use pre-order numbers in order to tell them how much to produce. Why guess how many you need, when you can just make as many as people order?

Because that would involve telling us what's coming more than two weeks in advance.

[Avaris]

Because that would involve telling us what's coming more than two weeks in advance.

Pretty much: lead time on products is a couple of months as far as I am aware. Making the sprues doesn’t take that long, the delay is stuff like the books, which are not done in house and often end up coming by boat from China or similar.

[LansXero]

I wonder, sometimes, if there's any reason GW can't use pre-order numbers in order to tell them how much to produce. Why guess how many you need, when you can just make as many as people order?

A ton of stores on retailer groups were recommending ordering 100+ or such inflated numbers then sitting on 20 - 30% of it until it sold out then slowly trickly it online at a steep mark up. This of course got slashed when every store got capped at 45, but flooding the market with more copies would've ended up rewarding scalpers and stores with blind sheep communities.

Truth of the fact is, the better a deal, the more you realize its the richest people, those who dont need it, who are in the best position to take advantage of it by just getting it in volume. A bunch of stores who've never done 40k tried to jump in the bandwagon of easy money, so you'll probably see boxes trickle in for a bit still.

[Renegade Paladin]

Goonhammer goes over the complete terrain rules. It's a long article.

[Squark]

Goonhammer goes over the complete terrain rules. It's a long article.

That's.... a few too many traits. 3-5 would have been sufficient

[Blackhawk748]

That's.... a few too many traits. 3-5 would have been sufficient

And Heavy Cover doesn't work if you're charged. Which makes it rather worthless.

But yes, 12 is way more than was necessary

[Renegade Paladin]

That's.... a few too many traits. 3-5 would have been sufficient

Of the twelve, only a couple (Heavy Cover and Obscuring) are new; the rest are just codification of what individual terrain pieces (that mostly got ignored because everything other than Ruins was fairly worthless) did in 8th.

[Cheesegear]

Goonhammer goes over the complete terrain rules.

I think one of the worst things is:
"Some of these are confusing, and trying to summarise them makes them more confusing." is a pretty horrific sentence to say from a review standpoint. Considering that those same people wrote in their initial review that clarity and formatting was one of the strongest aspects of the new rulebook. That being said; Terrain rules, are not Core Rules.

Let's go, though:

Dense: If terrain is 3" high, -1 to hit anything past it. Solid.
Obscuring: If terrain is 5" high, can't shoot past it.

My issue here, is that neither rule specifies actual density of terrain. The only concern here, is height of terrain. GG, GW. Still, it's a fairly good indication of what does what, because you can see it easily based on how tall something is. Any terrain, worth anything, is going to be one of the above, as they're the only two that really matter, since they're the only ones that prevent ranged alpha strikes on Turn 1 from the other side of the board, no save.

Defensible: Gives you Charge Reactions.

I don't know why this exists. It seems like an extra rule that's only going to confuse people.

Defence Line: A non-rule that should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Breachable: A rule that will cause arguments at the casual tables, because you have to agree on whether or not something is Breachable before you can even start the game.

Difficult Ground: A rule that definitely existed back in 8th Ed., that nobody used because it was too punishing in a game that revolved around movement. However, maybe it's necessary in 9th Ed. because of smaller board sizes (umm akshully, that's optional, you can still play on a 6x4'), and the fact that melee alpha strikes still exist in the game, and if every terrain piece is going to give -1 to hit and/or block LoS, melee becomes a big part of the game.

Light Cover: A non-rule that should just be part of Terrain rules.

Heavy Cover: A rule that wont do anything because a unit that can't annihilate its target in the first round of Melee, isn't a good Melee unit. As such this rule only reinforces the 'good stuff only' meta.

Unstable Position: Jesus Christ. This feels like a 'core rule' that should go hand-in-hand with the wobbly models box. Why the **** is this an 'optional terrain rule'?

Exposed Position: Another 'core rule' made into an 'optional rule'. "You don't get a Cover save, I can see you dip****." No wait. We have to fight about before the game even starts, and if we don't declare that something is exposed then it isn't. "You didn't say this was exposed at before the game started, got'chya."

Scaleable: Congrats. You made 8th Ed. Ruins.

Inspiring: *Headdesk* This is designed so that GW can sell Faction Terrain instead of making new models.
(Come on, GW. Just make Endless Powers already, you know you want to.)

As always, nothing here seems wrong (except the things that are).
It's just that even the right things, feel unnecessary.
I also strongly dislike that for casual games, terrain has become busywork and arguments because there isn't a defined ruleset for Terrain that both players must agree on.
"Well in my last game with [other opponent], we ruled that..."

[Renegade Paladin]

They didn't go into it, but we know that the various GW terrain pieces are going to be given predefined "example" keyword combinations that correlate to how they behaved in 8th. I'll eat my hat if it doesn't become standard to just use those.

[LansXero]

So lets recap:

"less alpha strikes!" -> First turn matters even more than before.
"melee edition!" -> Hordes are dead
"more meaningful terrain rules!" -> mostly same stuf as 8th, with a couple clear outliers and a couple useless ones. People will once again revert to whatever the examples make the best, so its obscuring / dense for days. Also more busywork.
"morale will not be 100-0!" -> morale unchanged.
"Less miniatures in the board will make faster games!" -> Primaris marines barely changed in points.
"More CPs for everyone!" -> For some; for most much much less.
"Soup is dead!" -> The one bit that came true. I dont think its a good thing though, but its always been divisive.

So, what did 9th fix again exactly? The price for 'no conga lines' is the murdering of melee armies through the new coherence and fight range rules. Many of the 'streamlined, all edge cases covered by huge ass pages of text' new rules have been misinterpreted, bent out of shape or have people calling for Day 1 FAQs.

People now have waited and seen. Did anything change, or did the 'wild speculations' actually turn out to not be so wild at all?

[Renegade Paladin]

"Morale unchanged." Mate, did you even read it? Combat Attrition is a whole lot more forgiving than 1d6+8-Ld or whatever resulting in losing the difference in models.